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Catalonia on a road map to Independence from Spain? After secessionists claim victor.

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Catalonia may be set to declare independence with separatist parties expected to win control of its parliament in Sunday’s elections.

686px-Localizaci%C3%B3n_de_Catalu%C3%B1a.svg.png
People are going to the polls in what is effectively a quasi-referendum and while the result is likely to be close, the separatist parties are forecast to win......
http://journaltelegraph.com/2015/09...ependence-declaration-after-election-results/

Catalan elections: secessionists claim victory
Catalonia has handed a clear majority to parties actively seeking the region’s secession from Spain.

Nevertheless, independence remains a distant prospect. An agreement will have to be reached between the two main pro-independence parties in order to secure that absolute majority and the central government in Madrid has promised to fight tooth and nail to prevent secession.

The impact of this result on Spain’s general election, which is due to take place at the end of the year, will be interesting to see.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/27/catalonia-goes-to-the-polls-live

As you see Madrid will have none of it. Since if they do get independence then those in the North of Spain the Basque will also want to split for due reason.

A actual serious matter or just an over exaggeration the future will tell....

Here is a Map of the Spain + Portugal with Languages through the years in order to get a gist of what is what
300px-Linguistic_map_Southwestern_Europe.gif
 

faridmon

Member
And Barcelona won't be able to play in the Spanish League if that happens. So basically we will get another 2 SPL leagues in addition to the Scottish one.
 
THat map is how I play Crusader Kings 2. Take out the muslims because they are so much more advance than you when you start. Also, you can assassinate your brother's kingdoms to get them fast.
 
THat map is how I play Crusader Kings 2. Take out the muslims because they are so much more advance than you when you start. Also, you can assassinate your brother's kingdoms to get them fast.

Leon start, 1066?

Too easy, just holy war everything to death, and get rid of Barcelona quickly (before it becomes a pain in the ass and forms Aragon after you destroy the kingdom)
 
Secessionists won a slim majority in parliamentary seats, but they lost the popular vote. (Mas and other secessionists claim the votes for the party Catalunya Sí que es Pot, but neither the party or most media consider them secessionists).

I still think secession is an eventuality though, but regardless of Mas' grandstanding I don't see today's results as a victory for them (and especially no for Mas personally).
 

Mimosa97

Member
I heard that they need a double majority but they didn't get it ?

A few months ago I read an article in a french newspaper that blamed the EU for the rise of regionalism.
 
http://journaltelegraph.com/2015/09...ependence-declaration-after-election-results/

Catalan elections: secessionists claim victory

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/27/catalonia-goes-to-the-polls-live

As you see Madrid will have none of it. Since if they do get independence then those in the North of Spain the Basque will also want to split for due reason.

A actual serious matter or just an over exaggeration the future will tell....

Here is a Map of the Spain through the years and who is were
300px-Linguistic_map_Southwestern_Europe.gif
Poor Galicia.

Portugal will hapilly welcome you in after 900 years of Portugal splitting away
 
Wouldn't language be a decent predictor to "who is where" inside a multi-cultural country?
There is a huge 400 year old gap and many of the smaller languages gave shrunk considerably over the centuries.

Catalan being more ardant defenders of their language have managed to survive longer than the other smaller ones.

If the Count of Portugal never got his kingdom recognized by the Pope and other Kings after fighting valiantly from invaders, Portuguese would have shared the same fate as Galician
 
Spain won't allow it because if the Catalans get independence (or even get to vote on their independence) then the ETA will flare up their separatist shit again, REGA will pipe up and god forbid the Corsicans and the FLNC will want out from France if they see the mainland ethnic minorities getting out from under their yokes.

So yeah, I see this as a giant non-starter.
 

Tiamant

Member
Spain won't allow it because if the Catalans get independence (or even get to vote on their independence) then the ETA will flare up their separatist shit again, REGA will pipe up and god forbid the Corsicans and the FLNC will want out from France if they see the mainland ethnic minorities getting out from under their yokes.

So yeah, I see this as a giant non-starter.

So ETA would come back because Catalonia would get independence by peaceful means? Makes sense!

Meanwhile, the coward useless piece of shit that runs Spain hasn't said a thing.
 

tolkir

Member
So ETA would come back because Catalonia would get independence by peaceful means? Makes sense!

Meanwhile, the coward useless piece of shit that runs Spain hasn't said a thing.

If he doesn't want to spoil it, it's better doesn't speak.
He should send a dog talker in his place, it would do a better job.
 

Rhaknar

The Steam equivalent of the drunk friend who keeps offering to pay your tab all night.
Why the fuck are we in that map thing? Portugal isn't Spain...
 

diamount

Banned
but it is a video :(

why?
I mean I really want to know

they had growing rallies for years... later has a party that wants to break away from Spain win a majority... and are also tone of the wealthy parts of Spain while the country is in a economic squeeze

Because unless they want to turn it into an armed insurrection, they aren't going secede peacefully.
 

patapuf

Member
The near future is the age of regional consolidation, not balkanization.

While that's true economically, i'm not sure that's the case politically, at least in europe. Much of the european elite would like to unify the continent, but there's been quite a bit of balkanisation happening in the last 25 years.

At the very least, i don't think consolidation is inevitable.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Catalunya is the part of Spain that has fared best during the economic crisis, I don't think they'd do that poorly no. The rest of Spain on the other hand...

This is untrue.

Despite the fact that separatist parties have been claiming that poor, lazy Spain has been thieving from industrious, oppressed Catalonians in a most amusing appeal to xenophobes, Spain had to bail out Catalonia after decades of misdeeds and its political class has shown the same grotesque propensities to corruption and mismanagement.

This is a map of provincial vulnerability in housing, economic and social terms.

And here are the unemployment rates.

While Catalonia is not among the worse off, it's certainly not doing fine and dandy. The region is reliant on the internal/European market and cannot cope with sharp drops like the ones experienced during the crisis.

Anyway, this is all sound and thunder, signifying nothing.

The Catalonian separatist parties have been pulling stunts for over a decade and nothing has come to pass. This is just a distraction. The major pro-independence political groups have found themselves in dire straits after a number of high profile political scandals eroded their old saintly image, so they just cranked up the volume of their demands to 11 in a bid to rally their troops.

CiU and their ilk know that Catalonia won't become independent. Because it is just not possible. It would be dropped from the EU and its already weakened economy would be ravaged by taxes. This is why the current, highly volatile discussion of independence is dampening the real question of what is the meaning of that word. Because right now, "independence" seems to mean a federal state in which Catalonia would have some more powers, but wouldn't exist as a separate entity. I mean, the jokers at CiU have kindly asked Madrid to keep military facilities in Catalonia in the event of independence since their economic impact is too big.

This is all a farce to distract the local population from the real problems at hand. And so far it's working.

It should also be noted that Mas doesn't have a supermajority and that separatist parties don't have the majority of the votes, thus the popular support to do anything besides trying to ask the population if they'd like to remain in Spain or become and independent state. The citizenry is at large receptive towards the posibility of being asked about their current status, but studies and polls keep showing again and again that separatists are not the majority. Pro and anti-separatist parties have been trying to equate both positions for electoral gains, but this couldn't be further from the truth.

Furthermore, people (specially foreigners unfamiliar with Spanish politics) looking at the newspapers may believe that nationalist foreces sweeped the floor, but in reality the current situation is not massively different from the one in 2012 when it comes to the independence issue.


So yeah, we are going to have another four years of huffing and puffing while Mas and his robber barons keep damning Spain for stealing the bread from Catalonian children and Rajoy (or whatever imbecile replaces him) warns Spain of the impeding apocalypse.

At the end of the day, the pro-independence Catalonian political parties don't have an end-game and they know it. Most of the population doesn't support an UDI and the market prevents it. At best, all they can do is to push towards the reformation of Spain as a federation, which is fine by me and many other Spaniards, but completely hypocritical on their behalf. At the same time, anti-independence positions cannot progress from the current stalemate.

It would be ridiculous if after all these years of venom spit from all sides the final result were the largely the same regional and political situation with a different name.

Anyway, like many Spaniards, my views towards Catalonian independence have tempered over the years. The crisis has shown that the stereotypes pushed by pro and anti-independence political parties are nothing but a farce and that all this posturing and troop rallying is only happening so the old parties can keep the status quo. I won't enable them.

I'm in favour of allowing Catalonians to speak up their minds in a public poll, even if I'd like to remain together. And in the extremely implausible, one in a million lottery kind of chance of the region becoming independent, I happen to reside in part of Spain that would most probably pick a good chunk of their business and infrastructure investment, so there is that. I will still be able to jump on a train and visit my friends there.

Fake edit: I'm sure this thread will get filled with inflamed opinions from both sides, but I'm honestly too tired about this subject to entertain another stale debate. I feel like people are being played and turned against each other for no good reason and I'm more saddened than anything else about the current situation, so I don't think I will make another comment besides this post. Have fun.

Actual edit: That map at the OT is very misleading. It shows the evolution of the local languages, not Spain itself.
 

Walshicus

Member
The near future is the age of regional consolidation, not balkanization.
Balkanisation isn't a bad thing. The world is better for Yugoslavia being disintegrated, and will be better again when the same happens in Spain and the UK.

Regional consolidation can take place at the same time we clear up these multi-nation state aberrations.


Anyhow, good for Catalonia! Madrid doesn't exactly have a great track record governing the country so why shouldn't it govern itself?
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
THE TRIUMPHANT RETURN OF ARAGON TO IBERIA!

I hope Basque and Granada are next.
 

Ikael

Member
Balkanisation isn't a bad thing. The world is better for Yugoslavia being disintegrated, and will be better again when the same happens in Spain and the UK.

Regional consolidation can take place at the same time we clear up these multi-nation state aberrations.

Yeah, a civil war, thousand of deaths, an impoverished economy and the creation of weak, corrupt states unable to fend off the interests of bigger countries / corporations and protect the rights of their own citizens are an absolutely good things if in the end all of that serves to boost the ego of a handful of self-absorbed nationalists. Because feelings > objective human development metrics. For crap's shake, go balkanice your country.

Anyhow, good for Catalonia! Madrid doesn't exactly have a great track record governing the country so why shouldn't it govern itself?

The Catalonian regional goverment, unlike the Basque, has been proven to be even more corrupt and badly mismanaged than their despised central goverment, with several multiple corruption scandals falling upon their two main political parties. Hence why they pushed first for the devolution of the justice system to Catalonia (Estatut) and now they are pushing for the independence of Catalonia altogether since they weren't able to get their justice a la carte first. There's of course a genuine push for independence among many Catalonians, but the motives behind this recent independentist push from certain Catalonian political parties are wholly cynical.
 

X-chema

Neo Member
This is untrue.

Despite the fact that separatist parties have been claiming that poor, lazy Spain has been thieving from industrious, oppressed Catalonians in a most amusing appeal to xenophobes, Spain had to bail out Catalonia after decades of misdeeds and its political class has shown the same grotesque propensities to corruption and mismanagement.

This is a map of provincial vulnerability in housing, economic and social terms.


And here are the unemployment rates.

While Catalonia is not among the worse off, it's certainly not doing fine and dandy. The region is reliant on the internal/European market and cannot cope with sharp drops like the ones experienced during the crisis.

Anyway, this is all sound and thunder, signifying nothing.

The Catalonian separatist parties have been pulling stunts for over a decade and nothing has come to pass. This is just a distraction. The major pro-independence political groups have found themselves in dire straits after a number of high profile political scandals eroded their old saintly image, so they just cranked up the volume of their demands to 11 in a bid to rally their troops.

CiU and their ilk know that Catalonia won't become independent. Because it is just not possible. It would be dropped from the EU and its already weakened economy would be ravaged by taxes. This is why the current, highly volatile discussion of independence is dampening the real question of what is the meaning of that word. Because right now, "independence" seems to mean a federal state in which Catalonia would have some more powers, but wouldn't exist as a separate entity. I mean, the jokers at CiU have kindly asked Madrid to keep military facilities in Catalonia in the event of independence since their economic impact is too big.

This is all a farce to distract the local population from the real problems at hand. And so far it's working.

It should also be noted that Mas doesn't have a supermajority and that separatist parties don't have the majority of the votes, thus the popular support to do anything besides trying to ask the population if they'd like to remain in Spain or become and independent state. The citizenry is at large receptive towards the posibility of being asked about their current status, but studies and polls keep showing again and again that separatists are not the majority. Pro and anti-separatist parties have been trying to equate both positions for electoral gains, but this couldn't be further from the truth.

Furthermore, people (specially foreigners unfamiliar with Spanish politics) looking at the newspapers may believe that nationalist foreces sweeped the floor, but in reality the current situation is not massively different from the one in 2012 when it comes to the independence issue.



So yeah, we are going to have another four years of huffing and puffing while Mas and his robber barons keep damning Spain for stealing the bread from Catalonian children and Rajoy (or whatever imbecile replaces him) warns Spain of the impeding apocalypse.

At the end of the day, the pro-independence Catalonian political parties don't have an end-game and they know it. Most of the population doesn't support an UDI and the market prevents it. At best, all they can do is to push towards the reformation of Spain as a federation, which is fine by me and many other Spaniards, but completely hypocritical on their behalf. At the same time, anti-independence positions cannot progress from the current stalemate.

It would be ridiculous if after all these years of venom spit from all sides the final result were the largely the same regional and political situation with a different name.

Anyway, like many Spaniards, my views towards Catalonian independence have tempered over the years. The crisis has shown that the stereotypes pushed by pro and anti-independence political parties are nothing but a farce and that all this posturing and troop rallying is only happening so the old parties can keep the status quo. I won't enable them.

I'm in favour of allowing Catalonians to speak up their minds in a public poll, even if I'd like to remain together. And in the extremely implausible, one in a million lottery kind of chance of the region becoming independent, I happen to reside in part of Spain that would most probably pick a good chunk of their business and infrastructure investment, so there is that. I will still be able to jump on a train and visit my friends there.

Fake edit: I'm sure this thread will get filled with inflamed opinions from both sides, but I'm honestly too tired about this subject to entertain another stale debate. I feel like people are being played and turned against each other for no good reason and I'm more saddened than anything else about the current situation, so I don't think I will make another comment besides this post. Have fun.

Actual edit: That map at the OT is very misleading. It shows the evolution of the local languages, not Spain itself.

Agree with everything, you can't claim a victory to independence with only 48% of the votes and you can't ignore that part of the population wanting to go. Although I'm afraid that a big part of this independence movement has arised because of the economic crisis (a hadful of years ago the independent feeling wasn't so strong) and the party in the goverment failing in every decision because of their beliefs and their congress majority rolling the other parties
 
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