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[TheRealTalker]

Because unless they want to turn it into an armed insurrection, they aren't going secede peacefully.

don't those parties want nothing else but separation.... it all counts later if the people of Catalonia would want to move to the next step or just want Spain to give them more power... Madrid going into a armed conflict would be catastrophic for their international image

 

[Starchasing]

Edited:

Im out of this conversation. Politicians are playing you guys.

 

[Nete]

Edit: One more graph. This time with the voting progression over the years.

Not only this "popular wave" of pro-independence voters doesn't exist, but the pro-independence movement has stagnated, while other positions are rising, much to my own surprise. It looks like they finally found the way to the polling stations.

Although I agree with almost everything you said, that graph is a bit missleading. CIU (or CDC) has only been pro-independence on the last few years, while on the graph are counted as such since the '80s. Before ~2010, ERC was the only significant pro-independence party and it has always moved between 4 and 16% of the votes during that period.

 

[Ferr986]

This is the most neutral pic of the results that I've been seen today. It's kinda outrageous that the unionist parties try to rally CSQEP and Unió along the NO, when they clearly stated they are pro-referendum. Heck, even their president stated that he would vote YES in an hypothetical plebiscite.

That said, I find JxSi results slightly disappointing, C's rise very dangerous considering that we've had them hanging around Catalunya for a while, the PP debacle is a godsend, CUP rise is a very positive force in the parliament, and finally the PSC continues to be as meh as ever.

Correct me if I'm wrong but CSQEP are pro-referendum but their official stand is no-independence, they always stated they rather find a way without independence. Whatever the president voted is irrelevant I think.

Same as Unió (that's why they didn't get shit). Being pro-referendum does not mean being pro-independence. I too think a referendum should have happened, even if I dont want the independence.

 

[genjiZERO]

I think it would be awesome if Catalonia went independent. But doesn't it require a constitutional amendment since the constitution explicitly forbids it?

 

[llehuty]

El País: Radical CUP party rules out unilateral independence declaration

Radical leftist pro-secession party CUP repeated on Monday that it would not vote to reinstate Artur Mas as Catalan regional premier, and also ruled out making a unilateral declaration of independence, “because the plebiscite was not won.”

CUP being the key to the government can give some very interesting results. Even if I don't agree with some of their ideas, it's one of the few political parties with some credibility left.

I think it would be awesome if Catalonia went independent. But doesn't it require a constitutional amendment since the constitution explicitly forbids it?

That's only true if they follow the constitution.

 

[Business]

I think it would be awesome if Catalonia went independent. But doesn't it require a constitutional amendment since the constitution explicitly forbids it?

Yes it would require one. The problem is the Spanish government has never had any will to do it and Catalans alone will never have the 2/3rds majority in both the Spainish parliament and the senate to do so. That's basically a dead end.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

But I want a super league. Or they could join MLS.

We get the superleague. It's called Champions League, there's just less games of it. This way, I'd love Barcelona come crawling to Spain begging them to allow them to play so they don't become irrelevant.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I for one, support the balkanization of Spain.

 

[Funky Papa]

This is the most neutral pic of the results that I've been seen today. It's kinda outrageous that the unionist parties try to rally CSQEP and Unió along the NO, when they clearly stated they are pro-referendum. Heck, even their president stated that he would vote YES in an hypothetical plebiscite.

That said, I find JxSi results slightly disappointing, C's rise very dangerous considering that we've had them hanging around Catalunya for a while, the PP debacle is a godsend, CUP rise is a very positive force in the parliament, and finally the PSC continues to be as meh as ever.

That picture is not neutral because it assumes that CSQEP and Unió are neutral on the issue of independentism when they are just pro-referendum, like a majority of the Catalonians. And I refuse to fall prey to the JxSi game of equating support for the referendum with support towards independence. We already know that a majority of Catalonians are pro-referendum, but not necessarily pro-independence.

Given the vote transfer towards the CUP, I wouldn't be surprised if CSQEP adopted more solidly federalist principles from now on. So far they have already stated that they will vote against the UDI under no uncertain terms.

As for Unió, in light of its split from Convergencia over the declaration of independence and the fact that they talk about sovereignty within the Spanish constitution (En aquest sentit doncs, creiem necessària i viable la incorporació d'una disposició addicional a la Constitució, que empari i respecti els drets nacionals de Catalunya, tal com disposen des de 1978 els territoris forals), it is only fair to say that it's a strongly federalist party. At least until they change jackets anyway.

The only people people who can claim victory are those who'd like a referendum. Neither separatists nor unionist won anything of real worth. The political stalemate and venemous scalation of the debate will continue.

Again, you insist in presenting the people of Catalunya as brainwashed sheep, victims of their political class.

Citizens are victims, but I won't call them brainwashed. People (not just in Catalonia nor only pro-indendence voters) don't make up their minds as much as they allow others to take decisions for them based on gut feelings. Gut feelings that can be easily persuaded. It's the same everywhere. And nationalistic political parties of all shades (no matter if separatist or unionist) are excellent at spotting grassroots movements in order to hijack it.

Again, I will happily sing the same song about other movements such as C's.

Do you really think if tomorrow they change every independentist leader this will end? Do you really think parties are following on the success of each other on whatever seems to work to seize power?

No and I don't think that's something bad.

Because sorry but that's just very simple. This didn't start with CiU trying replicate ERC. This process started with the failure of the Estatut d'Autonomia of 2005 which ended with the popular, yes popular, unofficial referendums held in several municipalities in 2009, 2010 and 2011, the creation of the ANC in 2012 and the massive demonstartions in Barcelona since. Do you know which political party was involved in all this? None. It's the political parties that have been swept by this. CiU, Unió itself and the PSC have been internally split by it.

You are allowed to have your own opinions on Catalonia, Spain and the Pope's election of underwear, but you cannot rewrite history.

The 2006 Estatut was clearly devised as a way to fan the nationalist vote, fully knowing that it would be rejected with haste and prejudice by the Constitutional Court since it was ridiculously ilegal in both form and content. It was a grievous political misstep perpetrated by Maragall, who got high on himself and ended up paying for it; moral of the story is not trying to pursue nationalist votes if you are not a nationalist party, since you'll piss of your bases and invigorate your actually nationalistic rivals.

A first year law student could have told you that the Estatut would have never passed as presented, but the tripartito kept pushing it so the nationalist vote would get enraged when the Constitutional Court and every jurist in Spain told them that no, an Autonomous Community cannot unilaterally enact State responsabilities and rights for itself. The purpose of the Estatut itself was political propaganda. They knew it was not feasible since the first day, yet they kept pushing it so nationalist could claim that Spain was oppressing the citizens of Catalonian by stomping on the (illegal) laws so graciously given to them.

The pro Estatut demonstrations that came after had the full support of the nationalist parties, who profited from this extremely dangerous posturing (which ultimately acted in benefit of CiU).

You also claim that the unofficial referendums were popular. They weren't. Those non-recognized, not officially supervised consultations, also spearheaded by separatist political parties (starting with CUP in Arenys de Munt), took place mostly at municipalities with a heavy nationalist representation and were characterized by small turnouts. Arenys de Munt, the poster example, achieved a participation rate of 41%. Others like Sant Cugat fared much, much worse.

Nobody in their right state of mind would dare to infer anything from those referendums other that nationalists showed up at a nationalist propaganda event. They had the validity of a random politician with a sign standing in the street and asking for adhesion signatures. Which is kind of what they were.

There are nationalist movements pushed by the citizenry, such as the ANC, but at the end of the day their voices are smaller and lack the capacity to shape the popular opinion like political parties do since they are not part of the comices. And it's not like the ANC is not rife with politicians fucking around anyway, what with Jordi Sànchez (quite a resumé, that one has) being put as president by the board of directors. Honestly, the ANC is so tainted I wouldn't touch it with a stick.

The first map you provide doesn't show a rural metropilitan split

It shows precisely that. It is presenting cold, hard data based on geographical distribution while you are projecting and inferring about ethnicity and ancestry (which shouldn't be important anyway).

The second one I'd like to know which parties it wants to include into each category, because honestly I can't tell. I assume it accounts for CiU as being historically an independentist party when you should know it's not the case. Unequivocally independentist vote has never been so big. I think you got it from elmundo? .

It accounts for CiU, which has been supportive of independent causes and views for a very long time, even if it has only acted as a political party of such kind since 2012 or so. Even if you disagree with the assesment of CiU not being a pro-independence party before then (which I can accept; we've already seen that they will change their beliefs as it suits them) that doesn't change the fact that votes against independence have risen since 2010, specially with the arrival of C's to the mainstream political scene to ensure the perpetuation of this stalemate in the meantime. And unlike the PP, which is managed by binary brutes, C's has the appeal to claim for itself those silent voters who defected from the PP and Unió, so don't count on the not pro-independence vote to stop right there if they gain prominence at state level and they don't fuck it up. This is just the beginning for them.

Madrid going into a armed conflict would be catastrophic for their international image

Fill that under "things that are not going to happen".

 

[itxaka]

Anyone that believes that they are shouting wolf because they want it and not because they want to keep stealing from the people is delusional.

It's the only fucking reason. A bunch of thieves just trying to bargain with the central government by shouting Independence while stealing. Same shit with the central government, they don't want to revolve around the shit because they also are in it.

What a fucking country. Sometimes I'm ashamed of what the fuck we are doing.

 

[Nevasleep]

And Barcelona won't be able to play in the Spanish League if that happens. So basically we will get another 2 SPL leagues in addition to the Scottish one.

They might make an exception....some Welsh clubs choose to play in the EPL, and are allowed by the FA.

 

[Gorthaur]

This is untrue.

Despite the fact that separatist parties have been claiming that poor, lazy Spain has been thieving from industrious, oppressed Catalonians in a most amusing appeal to xenophobes, Spain had to bail out Catalonia after decades of misdeeds and its political class has shown the same grotesque propensities to corruption and mismanagement.

This is a map of provincial vulnerability in housing, economic and social terms.


And here are the unemployment rates.

While Catalonia is not among the worse off, it's certainly not doing fine and dandy. The region is reliant on the internal/European market and cannot cope with sharp drops like the ones experienced during the crisis.

Anyway, this is all sound and thunder, signifying nothing.

The Catalonian separatist parties have been pulling stunts for over a decade and nothing has come to pass. This is just a distraction. The major pro-independence political groups have found themselves in dire straits after a number of high profile political scandals eroded their old saintly image, so they just cranked up the volume of their demands to 11 in a bid to rally their troops.

CiU and their ilk know that Catalonia won't become independent. Because it is just not possible. It would be dropped from the EU and its already weakened economy would be ravaged by taxes. This is why the current, highly volatile discussion of independence is dampening the real question of what is the meaning of that word. Because right now, "independence" seems to mean a federal state in which Catalonia would have some more powers, but wouldn't exist as a separate entity. I mean, the jokers at CiU have kindly asked Madrid to keep military facilities in Catalonia in the event of independence since their economic impact is too big.

This is all a farce to distract the local population from the real problems at hand. And so far it's working.

It should also be noted that Mas doesn't have a supermajority and that separatist parties don't have the majority of the votes, thus the popular support to do anything besides trying to ask the population if they'd like to remain in Spain or become and independent state. The citizenry is at large receptive towards the posibility of being asked about their current status, but studies and polls keep showing again and again that separatists are not the majority. Pro and anti-separatist parties have been trying to equate both positions for electoral gains, but this couldn't be further from the truth.

Furthermore, people (specially foreigners unfamiliar with Spanish politics) looking at the newspapers may believe that nationalist foreces sweeped the floor, but in reality the current situation is not massively different from the one in 2012 when it comes to the independence issue.



So yeah, we are going to have another four years of huffing and puffing while Mas and his robber barons keep damning Spain for stealing the bread from Catalonian children and Rajoy (or whatever imbecile replaces him) warns Spain of the impeding apocalypse.

At the end of the day, the pro-independence Catalonian political parties don't have an end-game and they know it. Most of the population doesn't support an UDI and the market prevents it. At best, all they can do is to push towards the reformation of Spain as a federation, which is fine by me and many other Spaniards, but completely hypocritical on their behalf. At the same time, anti-independence positions cannot progress from the current stalemate.

It would be ridiculous if after all these years of venom spit from all sides the final result were the largely the same regional and political situation with a different name.

Anyway, like many Spaniards, my views towards Catalonian independence have tempered over the years. The crisis has shown that the stereotypes pushed by pro and anti-independence political parties are nothing but a farce and that all this posturing and troop rallying is only happening so the old parties can keep the status quo. I won't enable them.

I'm in favour of allowing Catalonians to speak up their minds in a public poll, even if I'd like to remain together. And in the extremely implausible, one in a million lottery kind of chance of the region becoming independent, I happen to reside in part of Spain that would most probably pick a good chunk of their business and infrastructure investment, so there is that. I will still be able to jump on a train and visit my friends there.

Fake edit: I'm sure this thread will get filled with inflamed opinions from both sides, but I'm honestly too tired about this subject to entertain another stale debate. I feel like people are being played and turned against each other for no good reason and I'm more saddened than anything else about the current situation, so I don't think I will make another comment besides this post. Have fun.

Actual edit: That map at the OT is very misleading. It shows the evolution of the local languages, not Spain itself.

As a spaniard I can confirm this man speaks the truth.

Amazing post.

 

[Tiamant]

That picture is not neutral because it assumes that CSQEP and Unió are neutral on the issue of independentism when they are just pro-referendum, like a majority of the Catalonians. And I refuse to fall prey to the JxSi game of equating support for the referendum with support towards independence. We already know that a majority of Catalonians are pro-referendum, but not necessarily pro-independence.

I don't say that pro-referendum means a YES vote, I've said that they are pro-referendum and some of them would vote YES (like their candidate LLuís Rabell) while others would vote NO. It's silly to put them in any side because they are a complete wildcard. Unió? That's more debatable.

Edit: Yup, as I said

 

[Magni]

So you leave the EU to be more in touch with the EU. Seems logical.

The EU says it's against independence because it wouldn't want to piss off Spain, but if Catalonia were to gain independence - recognized by Spain, do you really think the EU would keep Catalonia out for long? It'd be "reintegrated" into Schengen and everything else before the separation were even finalized.

 

[Business]

That picture is not neutral because it assumes that CSQEP and Unió are neutral on the issue of independentism when they are just pro-referendum, like a majority of the Catalonians. And I refuse to fall prey to the JxSi game of equating support for the referendum with support towards independence. We already know that a majority of Catalonians are pro-referendum, but not necessarily pro-independence.

Given the vote transfer towards the CUP, I wouldn't be surprised if CSQEP adopted more solidly federalist principles from now on. So far they have already stated that they will vote against the UDI under no uncertain terms.

As for Unió, in light of its split from Convergencia over the declaration of independence and the fact that they talk about sovereignty within the Spanish constitution (En aquest sentit doncs, creiem necessària i viable la incorporació d'una disposició addicional a la Constitució, que empari i respecti els drets nacionals de Catalunya, tal com disposen des de 1978 els territoris forals), it is only fair to say that it's a strongly federalist party. At least until they change jackets anyway.

The only people people who can claim victory are those who'd like a referendum. Neither separatists nor unionist won anything of real worth. The political stalemate and venemous scalation of the debate will continue.

I agree and that’s why a referendum is needed to end the stalemate. As for the numbers, I remember the polls in July (admittedly I can’t find the data now) around 25% of CSQEP voters would vote yes on a referendum. Probably same or higher for Unió. And please let’s not count the 45k voters of the party for the animals rights and anti-bullfighting as No for the sake of skewing the percentages a tiny bit.

The 2006 Estatut was clearly devised as a way to fan the nationalist vote, fully knowing that it would be rejected with haste and prejudice by the Constitutional Court since it was ridiculously ilegal in both form and content. It was a grievous political misstep perpetrated by Maragall, who got high on himself and ended up paying for it; moral of the story is not trying to pursue nationalist votes if you are not a nationalist party, since you'll piss of your bases and invigorate your actually nationalistic rivals.

A first year law student could have told you that the Estatut would have never passed as presented, but the tripartito kept pushing it so the nationalist vote would get enraged when the Constitutional Court and every jurist in Spain told them that no, an Autonomous Community cannot unilaterally enact State responsabilities and rights for itself. The purpose of the Estatut itself was political propaganda. They knew it was not feasible since the first day, yet they kept pushing it so nationalist could claim that Spain was oppressing the citizens of Catalonian by stomping on the (illegal) laws so graciously given to them.

The 2005 Estatut was pushed forward by two left non nationalist parties (PSC-ICV) and one independentist party (ERC). Besides your conspiracy theories about how citizens are at all times tricked, you could for once entertain the thought a new Estatut was actually needed.

You can also tell me about your friend another day but for now don't confuse my person with the debate. It's irrelevant what anyone could have told me, what's relevant is the Spanish President at the time, Zapatero (PSOE, same party as Maragall), made that infamous speech in Barcelona claiming "I will support the Estatut that comes out of the Catalan parliament". Now you can blame the masses for believing that, but they vote and that's how this game works.

The pro Estatut demonstrations that came after had the full support of the nationalist parties, who profited from this extremely dangerous posturing (which ultimately acted in benefit of CiU).

You also claim that the unofficial referendums were popular. They weren't. Those non-recognized, not officially supervised consultations, also spearheaded by separatist political parties (starting with CUP in Arenys de Munt), took place mostly at municipalities with a heavy nationalist representation and were characterized by small turnouts. Arenys de Munt, the poster example, achieved a participation rate of 41%. Others like Sant Cugat fared much, much worse.

Nobody in their right state of mind would dare to infer anything from those referendums other that nationalists showed up at a nationalist propaganda event. They had the validity of a random politician with a sign standing in the street and asking for adhesion signatures. Which is kind of what they were.

That's right but who said anything of these referendums being worth anything more than your regular demonstration. The same data you provide about the relatively low turnout should also tell you how much official support they had if you compare it with the turnout at official elections.

There are nationalist movements pushed by the citizenry, such as the ANC, but at the end of the day their voices are smaller and lack the capacity to shape the popular opinion like political parties do since they are not part of the comices. And it's not like the ANC is not rife with politicians fucking around anyway, what with Jordi Sànchez (quite a resumé, that one has) being put as president by the board of directors. Honestly, the ANC is so tainted I wouldn't touch it with a stick.

I disagree, the voice of the ANC (and to a lesser degree Òmnium Cultural) has been key in the formation of the coalition that is JxSi, baffles me how you can say "their voices are smaller and lack the capacity to shape the popular opinion". The ANC could have run to the elections by themselves and in my opinion do better than CDC alone.

It shows precisely that. It is presenting cold, hard data based on geographical distribution while you are projecting and inferring about ethnicity and ancestry (which shouldn't be important anyway).

No, I tried to explain why you see what you see through immigration, which is not something unimportant that I'm inferring but a reality which obviously matters at the time of vote. The metropolitan area of Barcelona is home of most of these immigrant working class Spanish speaking population that has traditionally voted socialist PSC-PSOE, the red belt of Barcelona as it's known, you'll get less pro-independentist vote there. If you look at the data of this elections, you'll see Barcelona proper has a way higher yes vote than Baix Llobregat, in the metropolitan area sorrounding Barcelona city. You could go for a more extreme example with Girona city and Val d'Aran in the Pirinees, I'm sure you know which one is more rural. Case in point, the map doesn't present a rural/metropolitan split per se, as in it doesn't mean that people in rural areas vote independence because they live in rural areas and people in metropolitan vote no-independence because they live in metropolitan areas.

It accounts for CiU, which has been supportive of independent causes and views for a very long time, even if it has only acted as a political party of such kind since 2012 or so. Even if you disagree with the assesment of CiU not being a pro-independence party before then (which I can accept; we've already seen that they will change their beliefs as it suits them) that doesn't change the fact that votes against independence have risen since 2010, specially with the arrival of C's to the mainstream political scene to ensure the perpetuation of this stalemate in the meantime. And unlike the PP, which is managed by binary brutes, C's has the appeal to claim for itself those silent voters who defected from the PP and Unió, so don't count on the not pro-independence vote to stop right there if they gain prominence at state level and they don't fuck it up. This is just the beginning for them.

CiU was not an independentist party in the '80s, the 90's or the 00's. You are not conceding anything by accepting that, because it's a plain fact. If you'd correct that at best it shows the independentist vote has rised, although overall I think it's meaningless since the debate wasn't on the table back then.

 

[Ikael]

Funky Papa keeps steamrolling this tread. Awesome stuff.

Personally I'm a nationalist, in that I believe the natural unit of human political organisation remains at level of the nation. Don't believe that any nations are inherently "better", just that we're better organised along those lines. Depriving nations the right to self determination is abhorrent to me; there should always be a political route for groups to separate. To deny that is to invite and justify violence. If nations want to come together for mutual benefit then great! The EU's a great tool for that and NATO has been pretty successful. But it's the nation that should be the expression of individual sovereignty, not these multi-nation states.

Thing is that there's nothing short of "natural" in nations. Nation-states are another artificial political contruct such as kingdoms, republics or empires, and one very recent at that too. You can always look for differences among one political body that would justify its disgregation, since no country on Earth is 100% homogeneous, and the division processes can go on and on forever. I am, essentially, a pragmatism. I don't believe in the romantic notion of "eternal peoples" or "national essences". People must organize in the most efficient manner for archieving the maximum quality of life for their citizens.

Sometimes that means for different peoples and nations to be united under the same political banner / institutions / country. And that's fine. Conversely, If convivence between two different peoples becomes impossible, a separation could be in order. That's fine, too, even if it always have economic costs and even if I would like for people to adjust and adapt their mindsets rather than their country borders. None of the two option is more "natural" or "moral" than the other. The better order is simply the one that yields better results in governance and convivence, and that doesn't always lies in neatly defined identitarian lines.

don't those parties want nothing else but separation.... it all counts later if the people of Catalonia would want to move to the next step or just want Spain to give them more power... Madrid going into a armed conflict would be catastrophic for their international image

As a person with several family members and ties within the Spanish army's higher ranks, I can assure you that the chances of armed conflict with Catalonia and / or military intervention are ridiculously improbable. Seriously, it is a stupid make-believe, Michael Bay-esque scenario. It would be more probable for the army to enter with a tank in the parliament in order to protest corruption rather than starting to open fire against their own citizens. You guys seems to forget that for Spanish nationalists, Catalonia is (still) Spain, different language and lack of tapas or not.

 

[llehuty]

Catalan premier called to court over 2014 informal independence vote
Mess

 

[megateto]

As Mr Wolf once said, "Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet", but as others have pointed out, great posting all around, Papa.

The only qualm I find in your discourse is this one, regarding the legality of the Estatut:

A first year law student could have told you that the Estatut would have never passed as presented, but the tripartito kept pushing it so the nationalist vote would get enraged when the Constitutional Court and every jurist in Spain told them that no, an Autonomous Community cannot unilaterally enact State responsabilities and rights for itself. The purpose of the Estatut itself was political propaganda. They knew it was not feasible since the first day, yet they kept pushing it so nationalist could claim that Spain was oppressing the citizens of Catalonian by stomping on the (illegal) laws so graciously given to them.

We got, or at least I did, bored reading things like that the Catalonian Estatut was almost a carbon copy of the one from Galicia or Andalucía. How that thing finally panned out? Was it true, or just an interested truth?

 

[Funky Papa]

As Mr Wolf once said, "Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet", but as others have pointed out, great posting all around, Papa.

The only qualm I find in your discourse is this one, regarding the legality of the Estatut:



We got, or at least I did, bored reading things like that the Catalonian Estatut was almost a carbon copy of the one from Galicia or Andalucía. How that thing finally panned out? Was it true, or just an interested truth?

It was pretty fucking batty at some points.

4. Los dictámenes del Consejo de Garantías Estatutarias tienen carácter vinculante con relación a los proyectos de ley y las proposiciones de ley del Parlamento que desarrollen o afecten a derechos reconocidos por el presente Estatuto.

El Síndic de Greuges tiene la función de proteger y defender los derechos y las libertades reconocidos por la Constitución y el presente Estatuto. A tal fin supervisa, con carácter exclusivo, la actividad de la Administración de la Generalitat, la de los organismos públicos o privados vinculados o que dependen de la misma, la de las empresas privadas que gestionan servicios públicos o realizan actividades de interés general o universal o actividades equivalentes de forma concertada o indirecta y la de las demás personas con vínculo contractual con la Administración de la Generalitat y con las entidades públicas dependientes de ella.

This is way, way outside of the competencies of an Estatuto.

The Estatut itself, being a huge document, was mostly lawful, but included a number of flagrantly illegal and/or vague articles that made its approval impossible. Wikipedia has a good rundown of the sentence of the Constitutional Court, pointing the contentious articles and why they could't come to pass. There's some typical Constitutional Court dickery, particularly pertaining interpretation, but some parts of the document were like... dude.

I'm no fan of the Constitutional Court (I'd rather reform it and start anew), but nobody in their right mind could think that the Estatut could get the green light as presented. And the original document as approved by the Catalonian Pairlament was considerably worse. Here's Article 6:

Todas las personas en Cataluña tienen derecho a utilizar y el derecho y el deber de conocer las dos lenguas oficiales. Los poderes públicos de Cataluña deben establecer las medidas necesarias para facilitar el ejercicio de estos derechos y el cumplimiento de este deber.

Ammended version as approved by the General Courts:

El catalán es la lengua oficial de Cataluña. También lo es el castellano, que es la lengua oficial del Estado español. Todas las personas tienen derecho a utilizar las dos lenguas oficiales y los ciudadanos de Cataluña el derecho y el deber de conocerlas. Los poderes públicos de Cataluña deben establecer las medidas necesarias para facilitar el ejercicio de estos derechos y el cumplimiento de este deber. De acuerdo con lo dispuesto en el artículo 32, no puede haber discriminación por el uso de una u otra lengua.

(I mean, was it really that hard?)

Compared to Galicia's Article 5:

• La lengua propia de Galicia es el gallego.
• Los idiomas gallego y castellano son oficiales en Galicia y todos tienen el derecho de conocerlos y usarlos.
• Los poderes públicos de Galicia garantizarán el uso normal y oficial de los dos idiomas y potenciarán la utilización del gallego en todos los órdenes de la vida pública, cultural e informativa, y dispondrán los medios necesarios para facilitar su conocimiento.
• Nadie podrá ser discriminado por razón de la lengua.

And of course, there was dat preamble that got the PP all hot and bothered.

La vocación y el derecho de los ciudadanos de Cataluña de determinar libremente su futuro como pueblo

You just can't put that madness in an Estatuto and expect to pass muster. The document itself was crafted to create favourable outrage by baiting Madrid. It was a farce and a huge political distraction that, for years, greatly impeded Catalonia and Madrid from discussing other issues than the Estatut. Only two years later the financial crisis blew in our faces; all we had done in the meantime was bickering about fatally flawled laws.

 

[Walshicus]

You just can't put that madness in an Estatuto and expect to pass muster. The document itself was crafted to create favourable outrage by baiting Madrid. It was a farce and a huge political distraction that, for years, greatly impeded Catalonia and Madrid from discussing other issues than the Estatut. Only two years later the financial crisis blew in our faces; all we had done in the meantime was bickering about fatally flawled laws.

But the fact that foreigners in Madrid are able to yay or nay a constitutional document created by Catalans for Catalonia *is* the key problem, isn't it? That Madrid is incapable of responding positively to the concerns of Catalonians is Madrid's problem. It's only a farce if you're wired to view Madrid's legitimacy as stronger in Catalonia than the will of Catalonians themselves, which is obviously nonsense in a supposedly democratic society.

 

[Funky Papa]

But the fact that foreigners in Madrid are able to yay or nay a constitutional document created by Catalans for Catalonia *is* the key problem, isn't it? That Madrid is incapable of responding positively to the concerns of Catalonians is Madrid's problem. It's only a farce if you're wired to view Madrid's legitimacy as stronger in Catalonia than the will of Catalonians themselves, which is obviously nonsense in a supposedly democratic society.

Your response makes no sense unless you happen to believe that Spain's Constitution has no legal bearing in Catalonia, which is pure hogwash.

State law will take precedence over regional laws in Catalonia and any other region as long as said region remains part of Spain. Claiming that is not the case because Catalonians form a sovereign nation while submitting new laws for approval by the General Courts is whoefully dishonest.

Either you accept the law of the land or you don't. This childish bickering is political poison and only benefits the fringe.

 

[Walshicus]

Your response makes no sense unless you happen to believe that Spain's Constitution has no legal bearing in Catalonia, which is pure hogwash.

The notion that Spain's (awful, inflexible) constitution has a moral imperative over the exercised will of the Catalan nation is the hogwash. Legitimacy flows up, not down (only tyrants should think otherwise). I mean I see what you're saying, you're looking from a "legal" point of view. But legality is ultimately meaningless in these situations where you're talking about fundamental questions of who has the right to govern who. The moral view that self identified nations have a right to self determine trumps any legalism.

Either you accept the law of the land or you don't. This childish bickering is political poison and only benefits the fringe.

A fundamental principle of *where* sovereignty is condensed (if not delegated) is hardly childish; it's almost literally the most important thing to discuss in politics.

 

[Funky Papa]

But legality is ultimately meaningless in these situations where you're talking about fundamental questions of who has the right to govern who.

Yet Catalonia has no issues sending new laws for approval by the General Courts, thus recognizing that is not a sovereign nation state. Even the CUP acknowledges it.

Given the current circumstances, there are only two possible ways to fix this issue:

a) Follow the law of the land and try to ammend it so the will of the people (whatever that may be; I'm dead tired of the assumptions of separatism being the factual desire of the majority of Catalonia) is properly reflected and respected (something that the major nationalist parties in Catalonia have not seriously entertained until recently, preferring instead of play cat and mouse games like the ill-fated Estatut from 2006)

or

b) Go all out with an UDI

But nobody can send laws for approval through the official channels and then complain about how Madrid is stomping on their rights when those laws were patently illegal in the first place. That's the height of hypocrisy.

 

[Business]

Yet Catalonia has no issues sending new laws for approval by the General Courts, thus recognizing that is not a sovereign nation state. Even the CUP acknowledges it.

Given the current circumstances, there are only two possible ways to fix this issue:

a) Follow the law of the land and try to ammend it so the will of the people (whatever that may be; I'm dead tired of the assumptions of separatism being the factual desire of the majority of Catalonia) is properly reflected and respected

or

b) Go all out with an UDI

But nobody can send laws for approval through the official channels and then complain about how Madrid is stomping on their rights when those laws were patently illegal in the first place. That's the height of hypocrisy.

Papa the height of hypocrisy is to appeal to a law that requires an unattainable majority (in Spain) for the Catalans for it to be ammended.

 

[Funky Papa]

Papa the height of hypocrisy is to appeal to a law that requires an unattainable majority (in Spain) for the Catalans for it to be ammended.

The regional government has enough political, electoral and economic sway at its disposal to push for a change of the status quo by lawful means. At the end of the day the central government would have no other choice but to acknowledge it. It wouldn't have happened in a couple of days, but it's not like the current situation began yesterday. And it's not like it is alone in this.

Instead, we are stuck in the same childish bickering and garbage like the 2006 Estatut and the reaction of the TC, which poisoned the well.

One of the things that irks me the most about mainstream Catalonian nationalism as pushed by the old CiU and its ilk is that it never trully cared about changing the Spanish constitution, as they saw Catalonia as a special region that deserved a special status within the Autonomous Community system. Which is a load of provincial minded bull, like pretty much everything regarding the current Autonomies.

Had it pushed towards an egalitarian federalist conception of Spain along other regions (Galicia, Vasque Country, Andalusia and probably Aragon could have been easily persuaded; instead, PNV CiU and BNG opted to join forces in order to push a reciprocous regional approach with the shortsighted Declaración de Barcelona), it could have succeded in its aims of national recognition, self-governance and greater financial independence. But no, CiU and PP had to bash each other for political gains instead, turning nationalism into outright separatism by opting for a destructive strategy of confrontation instead of a constructive one. Par with the course in Spanish politics.

 

[Arynio]

This is untrue.

Despite the fact that separatist parties have been claiming that poor, lazy Spain has been thieving from industrious, oppressed Catalonians in a most amusing appeal to xenophobes, Spain had to bail out Catalonia after decades of misdeeds and its political class has shown the same grotesque propensities to corruption and mismanagement.

This is a map of provincial vulnerability in housing, economic and social terms.


And here are the unemployment rates.

While Catalonia is not among the worse off, it's certainly not doing fine and dandy. The region is reliant on the internal/European market and cannot cope with sharp drops like the ones experienced during the crisis.

Anyway, this is all sound and thunder, signifying nothing.

The Catalonian separatist parties have been pulling stunts for over a decade and nothing has come to pass. This is just a distraction. The major pro-independence political groups have found themselves in dire straits after a number of high profile political scandals eroded their old saintly image, so they just cranked up the volume of their demands to 11 in a bid to rally their troops.

CiU and their ilk know that Catalonia won't become independent. Because it is just not possible. It would be dropped from the EU and its already weakened economy would be ravaged by taxes. This is why the current, highly volatile discussion of independence is dampening the real question of what is the meaning of that word. Because right now, "independence" seems to mean a federal state in which Catalonia would have some more powers, but wouldn't exist as a separate entity. I mean, the jokers at CiU have kindly asked Madrid to keep military facilities in Catalonia in the event of independence since their economic impact is too big.

This is all a farce to distract the local population from the real problems at hand. And so far it's working.

It should also be noted that Mas doesn't have a supermajority and that separatist parties don't have the majority of the votes, thus the popular support to do anything besides trying to ask the population if they'd like to remain in Spain or become and independent state. The citizenry is at large receptive towards the posibility of being asked about their current status, but studies and polls keep showing again and again that separatists are not the majority. Pro and anti-separatist parties have been trying to equate both positions for electoral gains, but this couldn't be further from the truth.

Furthermore, people (specially foreigners unfamiliar with Spanish politics) looking at the newspapers may believe that nationalist foreces sweeped the floor, but in reality the current situation is not massively different from the one in 2012 when it comes to the independence issue.



So yeah, we are going to have another four years of huffing and puffing while Mas and his robber barons keep damning Spain for stealing the bread from Catalonian children and Rajoy (or whatever imbecile replaces him) warns Spain of the impeding apocalypse.

At the end of the day, the pro-independence Catalonian political parties don't have an end-game and they know it. Most of the population doesn't support an UDI and the market prevents it. At best, all they can do is to push towards the reformation of Spain as a federation, which is fine by me and many other Spaniards, but completely hypocritical on their behalf. At the same time, anti-independence positions cannot progress from the current stalemate.

It would be ridiculous if after all these years of venom spit from all sides the final result were the largely the same regional and political situation with a different name.

Anyway, like many Spaniards, my views towards Catalonian independence have tempered over the years. The crisis has shown that the stereotypes pushed by pro and anti-independence political parties are nothing but a farce and that all this posturing and troop rallying is only happening so the old parties can keep the status quo. I won't enable them.

I'm in favour of allowing Catalonians to speak up their minds in a public poll, even if I'd like to remain together. And in the extremely implausible, one in a million lottery kind of chance of the region becoming independent, I happen to reside in part of Spain that would most probably pick a good chunk of their business and infrastructure investment, so there is that. I will still be able to jump on a train and visit my friends there.

Fake edit: I'm sure this thread will get filled with inflamed opinions from both sides, but I'm honestly too tired about this subject to entertain another stale debate. I feel like people are being played and turned against each other for no good reason and I'm more saddened than anything else about the current situation, so I don't think I will make another comment besides this post. Have fun.

Actual edit: That map at the OT is very misleading. It shows the evolution of the local languages, not Spain itself.

Preach. 101% agreed.

 

[Red Devil]

Eh, let's see if they get anywhere, most of the people I've met from Catalonia identify themselves as Catalan so yeah.

The important thing here is that Espanyol might finally have a legitmate chance of winning a league title.

Spoiler