Shaki12345
Member
I think ALL games that run unstable should be illegal by law. There's almost no consumer protection against bad running games.
CDPR: Switch 2 way better memory/performance situation for the devs than they had for PS4/Xbox One
- Thread starter GigaBowser
- Start date
- Business Analysis Game Dev
LordOcidax
Member
Dude GTA5 made like a billion in their first weekend running at 15fps back in 2013…. Good luck with that
Shaki12345
Member
Well, it's 2025 now. And if you think it's a good idea to give the illusion to customers your game runs well when it doesn't, then I don't know what to tell you.Dude GTA5 made like a billion in their first weekend running at 15fps back in 2013…. Good luck with that
Thanks for the discussion. Have a good day.
Deerock71
Very Poor Hoice of Wor
BlackTron
Member
Honestly both the Nintendo naysayers and defenders look bad in this thread.
It's a game with a reputation for being completely broken on old platforms and for being a graphical showcase benchmark limited by the size of your graphics card.
It's pretty much a foregone notion that it will blow away PS4, but not quite reach PS5 or 5090 levels. Every time a Switch multiplatform game has less FPS than the PS5 version, everyone doesn't have to come out of the woodwork to say "SEE! It's not as good!" No shit, Sherlock. Were people this defensive over how much worse Game Boy versions were than Sega Genesis? Nature always finds a way to bitch I guess.
Switch 2 could probably have run a PS4-asset-like version of this game at ludicrous settings. Instead, they decided to run a higher-test actual next-gen version of the game with humble settings like a spotty 30FPS. Well, Switch is a $450 PS4 confirmed then.
It's a game with a reputation for being completely broken on old platforms and for being a graphical showcase benchmark limited by the size of your graphics card.
It's pretty much a foregone notion that it will blow away PS4, but not quite reach PS5 or 5090 levels. Every time a Switch multiplatform game has less FPS than the PS5 version, everyone doesn't have to come out of the woodwork to say "SEE! It's not as good!" No shit, Sherlock. Were people this defensive over how much worse Game Boy versions were than Sega Genesis? Nature always finds a way to bitch I guess.
Switch 2 could probably have run a PS4-asset-like version of this game at ludicrous settings. Instead, they decided to run a higher-test actual next-gen version of the game with humble settings like a spotty 30FPS. Well, Switch is a $450 PS4 confirmed then.
Shaki12345
Member
It doesn't matter how it looks if it runs poorly. Performance first, visual later.
But that's not important to most devs unfortunately.
BlackTron
Member
I agree, but then we arrive at "what is running poorly"?
If you're talking about a big ass game like Cyberpunk, running poorly is the PS4 version. Not the next-gen version running at 30FPS with a few dips, which is just...console gaming lol
Edit: Was it lame that Elden Ring for PS4 had a better framerate than the PS5 version on PS5? Sure. Does that mean the PS5 version was so horribly broken it should have been illegal? This is a joke
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Shaki12345
Member
Imo a framerate should be stable and the consumer should have a good idea of what that will be BEFORE release.
I am getting tired of companies pretending their games run well to them fuck over customers with shit refund policies.
We have rights too.
BlackTron
Member
Does that apply to all companies or only handheld game consoles?
Shaki12345
Member
All games on all consoles and systems.
If I buy an apple I want to know beforehand if it's rotten.
If I buy a game, I want to know it runs stable. It makes no sense that companies can refuse a refund based on their refusal to show how it actually runs.
BlackTron
Member
I mean, don't get me wrong. Would it be great if ALL GAMES performed better? Of course.
But there have been all kinds of games since the dawn of time on every platform. You can't regulate occasional FPS dips because then no games would come out.
Making it literally illegal to not match your preferred specs is just the land of make-believe. Most people are capable of adjusting their expectations for the platform. For example, when I got Ninja Turtles for Game Boy, I knew that it would be in black and white.
This honestly just sounds like an attempt to "gate" games behind better hardware, the problem is that if you really adopted this policy you couldn't even have FF16 on PS5. It's just a land of make-believe.
Shaki12345
Member
Consumer should know before hand exactly how a game will run. Just like with other products in life.
Or at least the option to refund the game when not satisfied bc of bad performance.
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Kataploom
Gold Member
It's not tho, it's literally a current gen machine in everything: SoC architecture, I/O, graphic API, it has actually usable AI accelerators, top of the line upscaler, RT accelerators, etc.
It's literally even more advanced than any of the bigger consoles. Don't let the "Nintendo bad" mentality and the raw power fool you, Sony and MS wouldn't be able to put something as powerful if they released their new handhelds this year,
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GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
supermetaldave64 derstroys DF watch his vids for full analyze
BlackTron
Member
I agree. Why is this a Switch 2 problem?
It's not even really a 2077 on Switch 2 problem, because the game doesn't even run that bad. It looks really good, and has 30FPS with some dips (as of now). So it behaves better than most people would probably have even expected, especially after 8 years of training on Switch 1 looking at Hogwarts Legacy.
It's just a normal running game and you're trying to make it about something else because you're insulted Switch 2 could sell copies of a game to people who "don't know" they shouldn't be buying it. But there's really nothing wrong with it and no one is tricking anybody. No one who cares whether it ran 60FPS on NS2 is buying it without knowing. You have that covered personally.
Baemono
Member
They show parts of the game that struggles to maintain 30fps on PS5 in quality mode and drops to the 50s in performance mode, and I wouldn't call the PS5 version as an unstable one
Shaki12345
Member
I'm a lot of things but insulted isn't one of them. I hope people will enjoy their purchase but obviously this will be another game with performance issues and in my opinion that should be illegal.
Now, if they show these performance issues in their promotional video's it's all good. But don't pretend to sell something stable when it kt isn't. And that goes for ALL games.
Shaki12345
Member
Every game with drops is unstable. Especially without VRR. It's what the word is meant for.
It's stable or it isn't. Unstable games should never be sold to consumers as being stable.
Baemono
Member
So you think they shouldn't sell any of the console version ?
Shaki12345
Member
Only if they let the consumer know beforehand it doesn't run stable instead of pretending it does.
That should be illegal. Trying to sell something as stable when it isn't. Consumer protection etc.
BlackTron
Member
There are just so many opportunities to make this a thing, but you made it a thing in the NS2 2077 thread.
I think what feels the most silly to me about this, is in the past, ALL games ran like shit, and all we had were game magazines. Now, we are already discussing the performance of a game over a month before it comes out, and you're saying it should be illegal, because they can trick us.
Shaki12345
Member
I'll make a new thread soon.
Physiognomonics
Member
Handheld mode in the heavy scenes: 15 to 20fps in "performance mode" at 720p with very visible DLSS artefacts. Even more DLSS artefacts in the quality 1080p mode. Those resolutions are likely after the DLSS upscale. We know it was 540p docked, it's maybe 360p handheld in the performance mode. But I mean those framerates would be much more bearable with VRR + LFC.
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Baemono
Member
yeah, same thought. I played GTA III at 10-15fps on my very old PC with no graphics card back then, I didn't really know what 60fps meant before PS4
Bitstream
Member
Exactly. Everyone in the thread shitting on last gen consoles for dropping to 20fps when driving... that's exactly what's happening on the switch2 as well.
Also, I've tried analyzing the input delay and it looks to have be at least a 4 frame input delay
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Dr. Wilkinson
Member
This really shouldn't even have to be explained. Obviously given what we know of the console now, the Switch 2 version is of course superior to the last-gen consoles. Hence it's port, in a relatively short period of time, how good it looks comparatively, being a handheld, and the fact without much fuss CDPR was able to get it up and running on Switch 2 along with the expansion that never made it to PS4 and Xbox One. So, let's stop pretending to be so surprised. Switch 2 punches above its weight, plain and simple. Like it or not, it's a fact. We are seeing example after example, and I'm sure there's more to come at the usual June Direct.
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Bitstream
Member
Actually that's not a fact. As indicated by the associate game director, it required a 'fucktone of effort' -
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Baemono
Member
Even on PS5 for Phantom Liberty
BlackTron
Member
I decided not to speculate on how much better the game could get because it comes out in a month.
But one detail noted in the video to qualify his criticisms: this is a 7 week old build of the game. Factor in how little time dev kits have been out, and yeah, I'm gonna sit back and wait until I talk about this game again.
But one detail noted in the video to qualify his criticisms: this is a 7 week old build of the game. Factor in how little time dev kits have been out, and yeah, I'm gonna sit back and wait until I talk about this game again.
GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
Switch 2 nort even finished
df first saids it LIGHTYEARS better then PS4 and no dlss aaand then backtrack
I'm sure it required a 'fucktone of effort' since CP2077 is by far the most impressive third-party game of the Switch 2 launch.Actually that's not a fact. As indicated by the associate game director, it required a 'fucktone of effort' -
However from the hints from other developers it looks like third-party developers got the dev-kits in mid 2024 at the earliest.
Basically the demos shown at the Switch 2 events in April were worked for at most 8-9 months (probably the latest stable builds ready for the events were from late February/early March).
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GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
DF IMAGE QUALITIES LIGHT YEARS BETER THEN PS4 NO DLSS
zero credibilities ahahahaha
zero credibilities ahahahaha
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
TrebleShot
Member
V 3xciting think I'll pick this one up just for shits n giggles.
If you can't get excited for new gaming hardware than maybe this hobby isn't for you.
If you can't get excited for new gaming hardware than maybe this hobby isn't for you.
BlackTron
Member
I think you just tapped the next big thing in gaming boards.
Woopah
Member
GAF Warriors. You must complete every level on Extreme difficulty to unlock GigaBowser.
BlackTron
Member
I think it's also notable, that CDPR allowed the game to be tested hands-on with a 7-week old build, in a connected Internet world where you can't hide anything and magazines no longer exist, that went on to be released to the world, and already discussed by us. Letting "game journalists" and "influencers" do stuff is literally promotion now.
I think that, with your take, Ghost of Tsushima could not have been released, because video ads would use real footage of the game, but perhaps not show the parts where character models dropped in quality, while playing it we all knew it was a mixed mag to make everything work, but an impressive package for the hardware. No more "impressive packages" allowed, just run the same way the entire game, OR, show any compromised spots in TV commercials requiring them to be 5x longer? As they say sir, you trippin'
Shaki12345
Member
If you can't show how the game really runs, you shouldn't be allowed to sell it.
Customers need a frame of reference OR a refund policy that actually works (fuck Sony).
BlackTron
Member
Right, so the real problem here is the refund policy. What if a game has perfect performance, but is simply not a fun game? Your obsession with performance won't solve this still-extant issue.
Your implication by saying 'if they can't show how it runs, don't sell it" is that they can't show it. But they did just show how the game runs, in a promotional video. That is how we are talking about it right now, and how we are aware of the performance. However, I assume that you will move the goalposts from "promotional videos" to "traditional paid TV spots" or something like that. Remember the only reason they talked about the game is because CDPR let people they knew would make a video about the game play it, because that has replaced past forms of promotion. Meanwhile, it's a 7 month old build of a game for a new console with fresh dev kits. This is all they have?? SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
What I'm trying to say is that your assertion that we should have a better refund policy is a good one but the alternative isn't just making it illegal for all games to be of perfect performance. You'd have to make bad games illegal too. It's nonsensical and impossible.
Shaki12345
Member
Multiple things can be true at the same time.
Gamers aren't well protected against intentionally deceived promotional footage or previews.
There should be a law for this. Like there is for all products.
That would solve it all. But not if only the last 30% is a mess. Then the refund policy wouldn't work. So yeah, subpart performance should not be allowed by law. There should be consumer protection.
fallingdove
Member
I'm sure there will be plenty of people looking to maintain that last gen experience who will jump from the PS4/Xbox One to the Switch 2.
Hey, maybe that's a marketing opportunity for you all.
"Are you worried that graphics are just too good on the PC/PS5/Series X? Are you terrified by ray tracing and path tracing?"
Don't worry, the Switch 2 has got you covered. 540p that feels like 1080p. We've got fewer shadows, less frames per second.
But that's not all, say goodbye to crowded open worlds — you don't want people on your virtual streets, you deal with them enough in the real world.
The Switch 2. It's the PS4 you've been playing for years but haven't been able to fit it in your pocket."
Deerock71
Very Poor Hoice of Wor
Butthurt PS4 Pro fan.
Shaki12345
Member
I'm sorry, did this site turn into YouTube comments or something?Butthurt PS4 Pro fan.
Deerock71
Very Poor Hoice of Wor
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
That's what the Switch 1 was. But keep in mind Switch 2 games run on 10W of power while PS4 games consumed north of 150W and PS5 220W. Even Series S which people on Gaf use as the butt of jokes uses 80W, Switch 2 is using 12% of the Series S power while producing competitive gaming experiences (see SF6).
Deerock71
Very Poor Hoice of Wor
NinVidia are wizards.
sendit
Member
For up to 2 hours