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CES la vie - Consumer Electronics Show 2015 (Jan 6-9)

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Linius

Member
Subbed to the thread. Basically only interested in Sony's new phones since I'm a poor student. Can't afford all the fancy new TV stuff and expensive gadgets.

Hopefully Sony announce specs and release windows for the complete Z4 family, I'm mostly interested in a possible Z4 compact. Ideal screensize. Hopefully they won't wait for the MWC in march.
 

MrJames

Member
Broadwell NUCs are expected to be officially announced at CES.

Intel added pics to their site but info and specs are for the current models Leaks mention a replaceable lid for NFC and wireless charging.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/overview.html

UaiUCwe.png


F9qiaiA.png
 
Subbed to the thread. Basically only interested in Sony's new phones since I'm a poor student. Can't afford all the fancy new TV stuff and expensive gadgets.

Hopefully Sony announce specs and release windows for the complete Z4 family, I'm mostly interested in a possible Z4 compact. Ideal screensize. Hopefully they won't wait for the MWC in march.

IIRC Sony's phones get sown off at either MWC or IFA.
 

Aticos

Member
I'm only interested in seeing is Sony, or may be Smasung.
Xperia Z4
Android Lollipop on Xperia
RX100 Mark 4
 

Majine

Banned
This is mostly a hardware event, right? I'm more of a software guy, that's why I'm interested in the Windows 10 event later this month.
 

Linius

Member
IIRC Sony's phones get sown off at either MWC or IFA.

It's looking very likely the Z4 is announced during CES. There's some doubt though if they'll announce the rest of the Z4 family too or save that for Barcelona.

IFA is in september by the way, by that time we'll be walking around with our Z4 phones for quite a few months I'm sure.
 
Devialet Phantoms. This will be the ground breaking product of the show for me. Wireless audiophile quality speakers with 70+ patents for only 2000 euro each.
 

Hiko

Banned
LG's OLED lineup leaked. Looks like they will have flat and curved 4K models.

I wonder about the pricing though. Can we expect further price reductions compared to last year's model? I'm looking to pick up a 55" this year. Preferably flat.
 

Loofy

Member
Well huh, my mistake then. No idea people spent that much. Seems absurd to me to spend that much but I guess it's worth it to people.
Man consumer electronics today are at least half the price of what they used to be before korea and china stepped up their game. I remember a laptop when I went to college being minimum $1500, no not for a macbook, it was for Compaq. 32" CRT $700. Toshiba(the cheap brand) 47" Rear projection tv were $1700.
 

Grimalkin

Member
Interested in Sony and HTC phones (if they announce any). If I don't see any compelling phones from either of these 2 I'm jumping ship from Android to iPhone next November.

Will also be looking at tablets. I have a Surface Pro (1) that I really like the hardware but I hate Windows 8.

I'm hoping that the Android makers can put out a product to compete with Apple because I really don't want to go Apple but I feel like I have no choice at this point.
 
It's looking very likely the Z4 is announced during CES. There's some doubt though if they'll announce the rest of the Z4 family too or save that for Barcelona.

IFA is in september by the way, by that time we'll be walking around with our Z4 phones for quite a few months I'm sure.

IIRC something Z3 related came out during IFA. I think you're right though in we'll possibly see something Z4, but the entire family will trickle out over the year.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
I don't think a lot of people really understand why TV manufacturers are interested in Quantum Dots.

I'll give you a hint: LG's OLED technology utilizes color filters over white OLEDs. This is actually what is going on inside LCD TVs, the backlight is white and the liquid crystals have a color filter which blocks light except for red, green, and blue.

Neither approach can provide a wide enough color gamut to meet the requirements of Rec.2020, which is wider than even DCI P3 that is used to produce movies today. You can't just have a 10-bit LCD panel, you need a better way of managing color reproduction than color filters over a white backlight. You also can't just have an OLED panel with white OLEDs with color filters.

The only way to meet the requirements of Rec.2020 is to improve how the colors are produced. Samsung's RGB OLED technology could meet Rec.2020. LG's OLED technology as it exists today cannot, nor can any existing LCD technology.

Enter Quantum Dots. The QD overlay over the panel or the backlight assembly improves the ability to reproduce red, green, and blue over just straight up color filters over white light. With QD, it is possible for existing LCD panels today to meet Rec.2020. And yes, if LG chooses to use it in the OLED TVs, they will be able to meet Rec.2020 with their existing OLED technique which utilizes white OLEDs instead of RGB OLEDs.

Until Samsung re-enters the OLED market with their RGB OLED TV designs, QD technology will be required on all existing TV designs to meet Rec.2020.

As a side note, the people shitting on existing 4K LCD TVs for not being able to meet Rec.2020 are quite hilarious because they are ignoring the fact that all 4K OLEDs right now also cannot meet Rec.2020. OLED is the saviour of nothing here, if you're going to bash 4K LCD for just being "higher resolution 1080p panels" you'd better start including the existing 4K OLEDs in that categorization. They cannot meet Rec.2020 color gamut either. Neither can without QD.

If anybody cares to see exactly what Quantum Dots actually do, they can look at this:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...in-lg-s-2015-uhdtv-lineup-4.html#post30057970

Someone actually measured the native color gamut of a TV with QD, the 2013 Sony X900A. Sony didn't bother with QD in 2014 on the X900B. You can see the difference in native color gamut in that diagram of the gamuts of those two TVs vs. Rec.709, DCI P3, and Rec.2020.

Both the X900A and X900B use 10-bit LCD panels. You can see that a 10-bit panel by itself isn't nearly enough for coverage of DCI P3 or Rec.2020. This is because color filters over white light just isn't good enough, you need to improve the quality of the light produced and ideally separate it into pure R, G, and B. LG's white OLEDs have exactly the same problem.

The Sony X900A had a somewhat wonky looking coverage of the color space, you can see that while it's noticeably wider than Rec.709 it manages to miss a portion of that gamut's green color space. Proper design and implementation of QD will be important to properly cover the intended color space, but even this first-generation QD design, were it better calibrated, would have been plenty wide enough to have covered DCI P3. A better QD implementation should have no issues fully covering DCI P3, it remains to be seen just how close to coverage of the extremely wide Rec.2020 color space QD technology can get.
Well, not everyone has been stating that only LCD 4K is simply a 1080p panel at a higher res. OLED has likely slipped through the cracks in such references because as yet, there isn't a mainstream 4K OLED available worldwide. I for one have been very adamant that current 4K ... in general ... is just a higher res 1080p, and is missing the features that truly makes UHD a worthy upgrade.

What I did say about OLED however is that while full Rec 2020 has not been demonstrated, it can (including current LG) display a much wider gamut than Rec 709. So even if initially it doesn't handle full spec, there is an obvious improvement over conventional LCD.


That said, you seem confused on how the LG implementation works. If anything, it's very similar to QD already. The reason conventional LCD's have a small gamut is because of the crappiness of the light source. Using a traditional 'white' LED (which is actually a blue LED doped with a yellow coating), they simply cannot get the correct white color temperature. Enter quantum dots. A blue LED is used as a backlight, with a red and green QD layer in order to generate the needed white color temperature. Combined with a high quality color filter, they can generate a wide color gamut. Granted I haven't seen the research on where they're at now, so I can't say whether the full Rec 2020 is immediately tenable, but the point is we get a gamut far in excess of traditional TV.

For the LG OLED design, we actually have a very similar mechanism. As with traditional LED's, at this point we do not actually have a true white OLED in mass production. LG's 'white' OLED subpixels are actually created by layering red, green, and blue OLED's in order to generate white light. The resulting subpixels then have a color filter (red, green, blue, and clear) in order to create the final pixel. Assuming in the long run they can tune the OLED layers to generate the same frequencies of red, green, and blue as what a QD TV does, and then use the same high quality filter layer, there's no reason to assume they can't produce the same gamut. It's essentially the same mechanism.

One possible issue (and I can't confirm whether it is one) is the 4 subpixel layout they use - red, green, blue, white. Current OLED has issues with aging, and in order to lengthen the lifespan it behooves the manufacturers to keep the voltage down. LG's trick of using a white subpixel not only compensates for light loss from the color filtering process, but actually gives them headroom beyond. In order to generate the correct colors however, they need to map the traditional RGB values in a CLUT that incorporates RGBW. It's possible that color conversion may limit the gamut or create inaccuracies? I don't know.


The point it, even LG's design should be capable of competing or at least coming close to QD in terms of gamut. Or at worst, is still well in excess of current standards. It should be a visible improvement.

Right now though, they are still using 8-bit color depths though. So gradations is arguably the biggest hurdle they need to overcome in the short-term. Otherwise they're going to have obvious artifacts/crush once HDR content starts rolling in. Of course that also brings into question whether they can currently even run bright enough without premature aging? Granted that's a different argument.
 

Oersted

Member
Is Xiaomi present?

Yes. And the president stated that their new flagship hardware will launch in January. Bets are on Mi5, with 810 Snapdragon, 2K display and 20, 7 MP cam.

Subbed to the thread. Basically only interested in Sony's new phones since I'm a poor student. Can't afford all the fancy new TV stuff and expensive gadgets.

Hopefully Sony announce specs and release windows for the complete Z4 family, I'm mostly interested in a possible Z4 compact. Ideal screensize. Hopefully they won't wait for the MWC in march.

Wut? Look for Xiaomi, Huawei and Lenovo then.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Holy shit, thank you! No one believes me when I say how good Vudu is. I've had people laugh at me over the argument. Even though it's owned by Walmart it's a really well done service with exceptional quality, far better than Netflix. My only wish is that it offered a block subscription of say 5, 10, 15 movies a month for X dollars.
Yeah unfortunately they don't have an a la carte offering, but yup... they're awesome.


Just tell your friends the truth. WalMart didn't create Vudu. They were a stand alone service that catered to the high-end audio/video-phile. They were wayyyy beyond all other streaming services in terms of image quality and sound. While competitors have begun to catch up, they were there from the beginning. Originally they used to actually have their own stand-alone boxes ... this was before most of the other streaming services even existed. They've been at this for a decade.

WalMart came in and bought them later on because they were so good :p
 

Linius

Member
Yes. And the president stated that their new flagship hardware will launch in January. Bets are on Mi5, with 810 Snapdragon, 2K display and 20, 7 MP cam.



Wut? Look for Xiaomi, Huawei and Lenovo then.

I get phones for 'free' on contract. So that's not a problem :p

Currently Huawei is the only phone I know of that is supported by Dutch carriers. The other two I'd have to import.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Is no on excited for Oculus?
To some extent.

I think the problem for many is the power needed to really do it justice isn't going to be mainstream for years. At worst, you want two frames rendered with super sampled 1080p (need really high IQ in order to lower artifacts since the FOV is so high) running at a stable 60fps.

When will the processing be affordable to do that for graphic complexity approaching the games we're used to now. Arguably even PS4 level?
 

Compsiox

Banned
With each passing month and year, I get less and less excited for it. Taking too long to come out.
So you'd rather it be shit lol. If you haven't tried DK2 that's your fault.
To some extent.

I think the problem for many is the power needed to really do it justice isn't going to be mainstream for years. At worst, you want two frames rendered with super sampled 1080p (need really high IQ in order to lower artifacts since the FOV is so high) running at a stable 60fps.

When will the processing be affordable to do that for graphic complexity approaching the games we're used to now. Arguably even PS4 level?
Well I have a very good computer so there is no problem for me but I remember they said they would eventually release their own hardware to run the Oculus Rift. When? I have no idea.
 
With each passing month and year, I get less and less excited for it. Taking too long to come out.

And you just summed up the biggest issue with consumer technology and coverage. Too many companies, big and small, show of stuff well before it's ready for prime time. The idea is usually sound: to drum up interest and get developers on board. The issue is that with the way media and internet is it's impossible to do this without hype. Stuff like that was reserved for developer conferences and news wouldn't spread as rapidly as it is.

In the case of Oculus I think a huge reason for their early reveal was 100% for marketing and publicity reasons (as is the case with most big name kickstarter projects). They knew if they did the campaign they'd get a huge response with a lot of publicity. This means investors become more aware and companies like FB come knocking to buy.

But at the end of the day I wish companies would stop showing off stuff so damn early in the product cycle (Google Glass anyone).
 

supergiz

Member
To some extent.

I think the problem for many is the power needed to really do it justice isn't going to be mainstream for years. At worst, you want two frames rendered with super sampled 1080p (need really high IQ in order to lower artifacts since the FOV is so high) running at a stable 60fps.

When will the processing be affordable to do that for graphic complexity approaching the games we're used to now. Arguably even PS4 level?

This is going to be the biggest misconception about what it will take to make VR go mainstream. Believe me I thought the same thing before I got my VR. I have a ps4 and have been a gamer for almost 20 years.

Graphical complexity doesn't matter when you are in the game in VR. It's hard to realize until you actually have one and put it on. Yeah of course as the hardware gets better the experience will get better but even as it stands right now I would rather be playing a game in VR then on a screen. There is really no going back once you have crossed that bridge.
 

Compsiox

Banned
I get terrible motion sickness from it (yes, on DK2). I'm afraid it won't ever be viable for people like me who have motion sickness issues. I know they are working on it but right now it just isn't worth it.
Are you sure the computer was running it well enough?
 

GK86

Homeland Security Fail
So you'd rather it be shit lol. If you haven't tried DK2 that's your fault.

Yes, it is my fault for not dropping $300+ on a developer kit that isn't the final version and isn't well supported at the moment.

I just think they are trying to be perfectionist. It has been two years plus since this thing was first announced/revealed. I read that now they are messing around with motion controls as well. Bet that ends up delaying the CV even more.

And you just summed up the biggest issue with consumer technology and coverage. Too many companies, big and small, show of stuff well before it's ready for prime time. The idea is usually sound: to drum up interest and get developers on board. The issue is that with the way media and internet is it's impossible to do this without hype. Stuff like that was reserved for developer conferences and news wouldn't spread as rapidly as it is.

In the case of Oculus I think a huge reason for their early reveal was 100% for marketing and publicity reasons (as is the case with most big name kickstarter projects). They knew if they did the campaign they'd get a huge response with a lot of publicity. This means investors become more aware and companies like FB come knocking to buy.

But at the end of the day I wish companies would stop showing off stuff so damn early in the product cycle (Google Glass anyone).

Pretty much. I'm not surprised at the level of attention/hype this got when the kickstarter came out. I was pretty damn excited for it. But after two years, yeah the hype dies down. Same with Google Glass.
 

supergiz

Member
I get terrible motion sickness from it (yes, on DK2). I'm afraid it won't ever be viable for people like me who have motion sickness issues. I know they are working on it but right now it just isn't worth it.

What did you play on the DK2 that gave you motion sickness? Different games at this point make the user more prone to motion sickness.

For example with the Gear VR store, they actually have a comfort level as part of the review so those that are more prone to motion sickness can take note of the comfort level before trying that game/app etc.

But yeah that's why they are working on eliminating motion sickness completely before the release of the consumer version. If I remember correctly they pretty much solved it with was it called the crystal cove version they were just showing off?
 

Epix

Member
Hoping we get some traction this year with 4K Blu Ray (HEVC) and some sub-10k true 4k projectors. Looking to see what I want my 1080p projector too.
 

Compsiox

Banned
Yes, it is my fault for not dropping $300+ on a developer kit that isn't the final version and isn't well supported at the moment.

I just think they are trying to be perfectionist. It has been two years plus since this thing was first announced/revealed. I read that now they are messing around with motion controls as well. Bet that ends up delaying the CV even more.
They said it would be out in 2015. Also the DK2 is greatly supported. Don't act you know when you clearly don't.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
hey raislin,

can you explain how white light is formed from a blue led with red and green QDs?

This gives a better description than I could do

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/how-quantum-dot-lcd-tvs-work/

But the gist is pretty simple. TV's work on the principle of additive color. We typically use red, green, and blue subpixels at various intensities too generate all the colors that are displayed. That mixture of R,G, and B produces all the secondaries, tertiaries, etc. Equal R,G, and B produces white

220px-AdditiveColor.svg.png


That's why when you look closely at a TV, you see those little R, G, B dots. Each grouping of those is a single pixel, and can be controlled to produce the correct color (and brightness).

Quantum dots are an interesting beast. While they do not produce their own light, they are phosphorescent - which means they will re-emit energy in the form of light when it is supplied. In this case the energy being supplied is light from a blue LED. Phosphorescent materials do not re-emit all wavelengths however. Depending on their properties, only certain spectrum is displayed. What makes quantum dots so unique is that the wavelengths they produce are directly tied to the size of the particle itself. That means their spectrum is well controlled assuming you have a fabrication process that can produce/choose the correct sizing. So for a TV, you start with a blue LED. Then you have a layer of QD's that are correctly sized to only produce the wanted wavelengths of reds and greens. If you space them out correctly, the combination of red, green, and blue that still makes it through produces while light.

Obviously this needs to be tuned to have the correct frequencies, but the end result is a very accurate white light at the right color temperature for TV usage. Everything in front of that is standard LCD fair. The liquid crystals in each sub-pixel are used to control the luminance (brightness), and a color filter is placed on top to generate the final stage. Yes this seems weird that we are going from RGB to white to RGB again, but that's because liquid crystals themselves only control luminance, and we do not have a cheap way of individually coloring light at a sub-pixel level.



As I mentioned in a previous post, LG's current OLED design is actually quite similar. Instead of using quantum dots that require a light source (blue LED for TV designs), they're actually using separate R, G, and B layers that are generating their own light. Same idea though. The OLED's combine to create white subpixels. OLED's don't require an additional layer to control intensity though (liquid crystals), since they can control the luminance of each subpixel directly via voltage.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
This is going to be the biggest misconception about what it will take to make VR go mainstream. Believe me I thought the same thing before I got my VR. I have a ps4 and have been a gamer for almost 20 years.

Graphical complexity doesn't matter when you are in the game in VR. It's hard to realize until you actually have one and put it on. Yeah of course as the hardware gets better the experience will get better but even as it stands right now I would rather be playing a game in VR then on a screen. There is really no going back once you have crossed that bridge.
Then the problem is going to be in convincing people. And that's not cheap. It's not really tenable to have VR stations at every store.

Still though, aren't you overestimating the average PC 'gamers' rig? Even with reduced complexity you still need power to generate two frames at > 1080p60, which is what even the creators of Oculus are calling for. I guess I'd need to find some metrics on what people have, but I'd think we're still not at a place where the average person could get the wanted results. That's all I'm saying. Right now I think the market isn't quite there yet, and it's only suitable for the subset of higher-end gaming rigs.
 

Anion

Member
I'm not too excited this year for CES unusually. It's probably because I am not planning in getting any new tech for a while (thankfully lol).

However, I'm curious about OR. I'm not sure if my 970M laptop gpu can handle OR, but I am a bit curious. I haven't looking into the technology yet though
 
The wait for Oculus is UNBEARABLE!!!

It's like you were up at 1AM playing Left 4 Dead 2 with this dude you thought was a good player and pretty spiffy. You added him to your friend's list and later on you find out that he's really a chick (Oculus) that lives in Belgium and she's pretty freaking hot (She sent you her pics).

One thing leads to another (You became hyped) and you somehow end up in a sorta long distance relationship (take my money now!!!) with her.

January rolls around and she's tells you that she's coming to your state sometime late 2015. You get really excited at this news.

However, she begins texting you everyday these really explicit messages (YouTube videos of people playing rift demos like Senza Peso) about what she's going to do to you when she gets there, how she's bringing a second suitcase filled with nothing but all manner of sexual toys, massaging oils, and costumes. And how they're going to have to hose the hotel room down after the two of you are finished.

She sends you these messages EVERY DAY!!

Meanwhile, there's these other two girls (PS4 and Xbone) that are sorta hot and flirt with you DAILY. They literally throw themselves and you even sometimes show you their boobs (Upcoming game trailers and screenshots). But you're trying to remain "steadfast and loyal" (saving up money for a killer PC + rift) for your girl in Belgium (Oculus).
 

amrod

Member
The wait for Oculus is UNBEARABLE!!!

It's like you were up at 1AM playing Left 4 Dead 2 with this dude you thought was a good player and pretty spiffy. You added him to your friend's list and later on you find out that he's really a chick (Oculus) that lives in Belgium and she's pretty freaking hot (She sent you her pics).

One thing leads to another (You became hyped) and you somehow end up in a sorta long distance relationship (take my money now!!!) with her.

January rolls around and she's tells you that she's coming to your state sometime late 2015. You get really excited at this news.

However, she begins texting you everyday these really explicit messages (YouTube videos of people playing rift demos like Senza Peso) about what she's going to do to you when she gets there, how she's bringing a second suitcase filled with nothing but all manner of sexual toys, massaging oils, and costumes. And how they're going to have to hose the hotel room down after the two of you are finished.

She sends you these messages EVERY DAY!!

Meanwhile, there's these other two girls (PS4 and Xbone) that are sorta hot and flirt with you DAILY. They literally throw themselves and you even sometimes show you their boobs (Upcoming game trailers and screenshots). But you're trying to remain "steadfast and loyal" (saving up money for a killer PC + rift) for your girl in Belgium (Oculus).

Sounds like it should be on MTV's Catfish :0
 

supergiz

Member
Then the problem is going to be in convincing people. And that's not cheap. It's not really tenable to have VR stations at every store.

Still though, aren't you overestimating the average PC 'gamers' rig? Even with reduced complexity you still need power to generate two frames at > 1080p60, which is what even the creators of Oculus are calling for. I guess I'd need to find some metrics on what people have, but I'd think we're still not at a place where the average person could get the wanted results. That's all I'm saying. Right now I think the market isn't quite there yet, and it's only suitable for the subset of higher-end gaming rigs.

Word of mouth. It's only been out less than a month for gear vr. The difference between that and the rift is the low barrier to entry once you have more phone compatibility.

I've been demoing this thing nonstop and have yet to get anything but an awe inspiring reaction from the average person. Hell I was playing a hacking game called Darknet today that had me more immersed than most AAA games on the pc/ps4/xbone/wiiu
 

Lucius86

Banned
I'm hoping for a new Roomba actually from iRobot. In the market for a robot vacuum cleaner.
4K OLEDs

Anything else that's exciting.

I'd love to go to a CES one day.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
LG's OLED lineup leaked. Looks like they will have flat and curved 4K models.

I wonder about the pricing though. Can we expect further price reductions compared to last year's model? I'm looking to pick up a 55" this year. Preferably flat.

LG just opened a new OLED mfg line in mid December so the hope is this will aid in price drops, but I wouldn't be expecting sub $2k sets for another 2 years or so.
 
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