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[Lo-Volt]

Back to PS3 launch discussion-

Sony could release PS3 with a bunch of C grade titles and it'll still sell out for several months.

A scary prospect, to be sure.

 

[Mifune]

I'm interested and a little frightful for what Sony may have in store at CES. I'm hoping I didn't buy a 400 dollar doorstep. If what Sony brings at CES is their E3 level movie quality then I think it is a tough road ahead for MS. If you read between the lines from developer comments about various games (Latest one being Fight Night), they are all hinting PS3 is going to be a step up from Xbox 360. Perhaps a significant one.

Oh please. The PS3 will most definitely rock our worlds, but to call the 360 a 400 dollar doorstop is just fucking stupid.

You really do live up to your tag.

 

[monkeymagic]

Yes it is OFTEN enough for 90 minute movie with nothing else (and sound limited to DVD quality dts below laserdisc actually). Many HD native transport MPEG captures are 12-15GB range for movies that is true... but these are NOT reference videos as we expect from bluray. Why should audio not be improved in the nexgen format? 5.1 limited bitrate is not a panacea. For upscale, early adopters, unfortunately 25GB is gonna be limiting (and insufficient) when used with MPEG if you add any extras (and/or if you have a longer movie).

It should correct itself over time but it's something to watch and not ignore (unless you want to have "deluxe super edition bluray" version on the shelf 6 months after you purchased the first edition

Yes I fully expect the initial titles NOT to be reference quality compared to later editions which will eventually end up in MPEG4 and 7.1 audio.

And that's the nature of Hollywood - they will release HD MPEG2 w/5.1 audio editions initially, then maybe MPEG4 editions with 5.1 audio and then finally MPEG4 editions with extras and 7.1 audio.

 

[chinch]

Yes I fully expect the initial titles NOT to be reference quality compared to later editions which will eventually end up in MPEG4 and 7.1 audio.

And that's the nature of Hollywood - they will release HD MPEG2 w/5.1 audio editions initially, then maybe MPEG4 editions with 5.1 audio and then finally MPEG4 editions with extras and 7.1 audio.

Thank you. I felt YOU knew this, but you were posting otherwise disregarded this obvious stuff.

xmas 2006 - initial 5.1 bluray MPEG edition movie
xmas 2007 - superbit bluray MPEG edition movie (50 gb platter)
xmas 2008 - lowry restoration hyper-deluxe VC-1 encoded edition
xmas 2009 - lowry restoration megamix-deluxe 7.1 VC-1 encoded edition
etc.

You can smell it coming a mile away (not just sony, but every studio who jumps in early)

I don't see the urgency to have these movies hastily released (on MPEG in only 5.1 on 25GB platter) if it's marginally better than what i'm watching on HDTV today. I guess ultimately my HD movie purchase will reflect that (probably not buying any until netflix rents them) even though my HD theatre is quite friendly to the eye. There is a point of no return on your investment

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I don't think I-8 will make the launch.

Probably not, but it seemed pretty far along at E3. Already running at 60fps, physics simulation for the explosions by the wrecked cars, particle fx and such. Granted they had no AI routines whatsoever, and didnt even have a grenade throwing animation in place yet but I thought it was pretty amazing they had something so early, yet good enough to show in such a raw state. Im really curious to see how its transformed since then.

 

[mrklaw]

More than just sheer resolution, it's high bitrate that really counts. Just look at PBS 1080i broadcasts vs Discovery HD theater's 1080i broadcasts. It's night and day, especially in fast action scenes.

And at a high bitrate (40~80mb/sec) that would negate most of those awful macroblocking in action and subtle low lighting scenes, you can only fit 2.8 ~ 1.4 hours, on even 50GB BR.

You don't need that high a bitrate to have good MPEG2 HD.

How many of the TV shows are professionally authored in MPEG2 HD before broadcast? and how many are simply HD tapes that are realtime encoded to MPEG2? That can have a huge effect on how good the resulting image is, and how much bitrate it needs.

I'd fully expect any MPEG2 HD movie to fit comfortably onto a 25GB disc, even LOTR. Sony wouldn't choose it unless the movies would look good.

 

[choplifter]

Was the Zelda Spaceworld demo real time? I thought it was made to spec.

It's funny now that I think about it, Nintendo's Spaceworld GC demo reel was the most mis-representative of all three consoles this gen heh.

the August 2000 Spaceworld Zelda demo was clearly realtime - although there is some question as to realtime on *what* - Gamecube hardware, or a powerful workstation / highend graphics card

 

[kaching]

No one in their right mind will invest in a BR player and a HDTV to watch SD content, especially when they probably have the SD version of that same content on DVD already (probably several times over).

Why not? Anyone in their right mind would appreciate the fact if they can't take advantage of all of BD's features immediately, those features will still be there to grow into when they fully upgrade their hardware. In meantime, there should still be notable improvements over DVD that can offer deeper, more expansive extras to take advantage of.

You've got to do better.

I think I've done well enough in addressing the concerns of someone who's clearly only skimming recent events regarding the BD realm and doing a poor job at that.

The point is that majority of the affordable TVs that folks already had gave you 90% of the picture quality that DVD media provides.

Back in '96 when DVD first launched, affordable TVs most folks had would have been 4:3, 480i, reproducing significantly less than 90% of what full spec 720x480 DVD video spec offered.

As for the players, the cost were high the first few months, but I saw $300 players shortly into X-mas season of 1998, which is within the first year of the launch.

Seeing as they launched in xmas season 1996, that'd be more like two years. Japan got them first in 1996, then the US in Mar. 97. The first models were generally $1000 or more, and there's been no price predictions any higher than that for BD players, so I don't know why you'd think BD players couldn't come down equally as fast.

 

[Willy Wanka]

Finding out more about the hardware will be exciting enough but I just hope they show us a little more of potential launch titles Even 30 seconds or something would be good enough!

 

[Doom_Bringer]

This thread is stupid.

 

[trmas]

Wow, this is like dejavu. MS fans sound exactly like the Sega fans did a few years ago. I mean exactly. Looking forward to seeing the PS3 soon, and E3 will be vital to both companies next year.

 

[chinch]

the US in Mar. 97. The first models were generally $1000 or more, and there's been no price predictions any higher than that for BD players, so I don't know why you'd think BD players couldn't come down equally as fast.

DVD players in the USA were not "generally $1000 or more" at spring launch or first xmas 1997. '98 was the second xmas season for DVD players and prices were $300 or less as was stated. Sony's top model the 7000 listed for like $1k and sold for less. Dropped very fast. PS2 in USA by the time it was released wasn't a "cheap dvd" player like it was in Japan FWIW.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/1997/03/31/focus1.html

With only about 100 movie titles expected to be released in 1997, and the cost of DVD video players ranging from $500 to $1,000, all but the most rabid videophiles and trendies -- the so-called "early adoptors" -- will likely take a wait-and-see approach before plunking their money down. Cost of the five-inch DVD discs is about $25.

http://starbulletin.com/97/01/03/features/story1.html

Toshiba reportedly is ready to introduce a DVD player with some accompanying software, probably music videos made for the Japanese market. Toshiba Hawaii was not immediately available for comment. The company is expected to introduce two DVD players soon - Model SD-3006 at $699 and Model SD-1006 at $599.

Panasonic and Pioneer plan to ship some DVD models this month, selling in the range of $599 to $1,750. Thomson has given March 1997 as its date; Sony and Philips opted for the second quarter of this year (1997).

How prices will drop for BRD is anyones guess, as will introductory pricing. I'd expect CES clarifies alot of Blu-ray details (less PS3 details pricing & details obviously), and it has to given it wants to launch bluray in 2006.

You can also see how the CE companies talked about DVD in 1996 (under $500 price goals)
http://www.wiseacres.com/dvd.htm

 

[Shogmaster]

You don't need that high a bitrate to have good MPEG2 HD.

None of the broadcast HD is 1080p like BR is promising IIRC.

How many of the TV shows are professionally authored in MPEG2 HD before broadcast? and how many are simply HD tapes that are realtime encoded to MPEG2?
That can have a huge effect on how good the resulting image is, and how much bitrate it needs.

Realtime encode MPEG2 in HD resolutions and high bitrate right as you broadcast? I didn't think that was practical. Are you sure all HD broadcasts are not pre-encoded?

I'd fully expect any MPEG2 HD movie to fit comfortably onto a 25GB disc, even LOTR. Sony wouldn't choose it unless the movies would look good.

People expect decent amount of extra content in DVDs these days and I'd think they expect the same from next gen DVD format, HD or not. You don't want to go backwards if you want the consumers to adapt your fledging format.

Why not? Anyone in their right mind would appreciate the fact if they can't take advantage of all of BD's features immediately, those features will still be there to grow into when they fully upgrade their hardware. In meantime, there should still be notable improvements over DVD that can offer deeper, more expansive extras to take advantage of.

If you can sell SD content on BR to all those people expectig HD content, you are one hell of a salesman. Better salesman then I.

I think I've done well enough in addressing the concerns of someone who's clearly only skimming recent events regarding the BD realm and doing a poor job at that.

For someone who only skimming recent events, I seem to be getting you resident BR experts' panties in a bunch well enough. Think if I actually had kept up with this shit, you'd all be in a real big heap.

Back in '96 when DVD first launched, affordable TVs most folks had would have been 4:3, 480i, reproducing significantly less than 90% of what full spec 720x480 DVD video spec offered.

If you are giving less than 90% (I know it was a bit aribrary in the first place) to median TVs of '96 for DVD, then what the heck would you give the median TVs of 2006 for BR? A negative figure?

Seeing as they launched in xmas season 1996, that'd be more like two years. Japan got them first in 1996, then the US in Mar. 97. The first models were generally $1000 or more, and there's been no price predictions any higher than that for BD players, so I don't know why you'd think BD players couldn't come down equally as fast.

OK, to be fair, I gues it was within the first 18 months in the US intead of the first 12 months. Still something I doubt BR can acheive.

And forget about PS3 riding the wave of BR revolution to an easy early success like PS2 did with DVDs. End of '96 to early 2000 is 3 years and 3 months of market penetration by DVD before PS2 arrived to take advantage of that. Besides the fact that the number of HDTV in the market is severally limiting things this round for BR, PS3 will be spearheading the BR penetration instead of the other way around. No where near the same situation this time around.

 

[Wollan]

I don't think I-8 will make the launch.

I-8 has always been SCEAs main launch title alongside Warhawk. Listen to the wind.

 

[littlewig]

So, when can we expect the first Blu-Ray movies?

 

[Laguna X]

So, when can we expect the first Blu-Ray movies?

That'll most likely be answered at CES.

 

[kaching]

If you can sell SD content on BR to all those people expectig HD content, you are one hell of a salesman. Better salesman then I.

If that's all it boiled down to, that would be a feat. But it doesn't and you're just glossing over that part.

For someone who only skimming recent events, I seem to be getting you resident BR experts' panties in a bunch well enough. Think if I actually had kept up with this shit, you'd all be in a real big heap.

Well, I certainly would like to spend less time correcting your faulty assumptions, so I'd welcome the challenge if you knew a bit more about what you're talking about.

If you are giving less than 90% (I know it was a bit aribrary in the first place) to median TVs of '96 for DVD, then what the heck would you give the median TVs of 2006 for BR? A negative figure?

Heh, close, but the point here is that what people were first getting out of DVD was nowhere near 90% and was probably down below 50%. Another situation for those miracle salesmen you spoke of earlier.

OK, to be fair, I gues it was within the first 18 months in the US intead of the first 12 months. Still something I doubt BR can acheive.

Why?

And forget about PS3 riding the wave of BR revolution to an easy early success like PS2 did with DVDs. ... No where near the same situation this time around.

Never said it was the same, I just find it interesting how some of you only allow for such very narrow terms of success for BD.

 

[Shogmaster]

If that's all it boiled down to, that would be a feat. But it doesn't and you're just glossing over that part.

Say huh? I'm sorry, was that a response to the question at hand (will consumers tolerate SD content on BR) or were you just chewing cud?

Well, I certainly would like to spend less time correcting your faulty assumptions, so I'd welcome the challenge if you knew a bit more about what you're talking about.

You can spend less time on my assumptions and try to answer the direct questions since you haven't gotten to those well enough yet.

Heh, close, but the point here is that what people were first getting out of DVD was nowhere near 90% and was probably down below 50%.

And would give the median TVs of 2006 a grade of -50% for BR?

Another situation for those miracle salesmen you spoke of earlier.

BR sure will need their help for the layman.

Why?

Call it a hunch.

Never said it was the same, I just find it interesting how some of you only allow for such very narrow terms of success for BD.

Well the expectations for BR is sky high isn't it? Not my fault, really. Seriouly though, DVD has had less than 10 years on the market. Kicking it to the curb this early just isn't the best way to treat the most beloved video format in history is it? Poor old DVD... We hardly knew ye.

 

[Striek]

"Sony has officially declared that at CES, CEO Howard Stringer will present a report containing all the information regarding the console."
Source

Is this just a site regurgitating information or is this official confirmation?

I wonder what "all the information" means. All the information we already know? Or all the information we don't yet know?

 

[Wollan]

Maybe we will get a full report on the RSX aswell as Online.
The aspects of the console most fitting to be talked about in regards to the mantra of the show as I see it.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I would like to hear more about RSX and Cell's integration with it. We all know that RSX can push hundreds of millions of polygons and effects out the yin-yang and people have even used educated guesses to caluculate something like ~1.1 billion raw polygons, but then Cell seems to be able to push like 200 million polygons per SPU (there are 7 for PS3's Cell) and there are talks of even realtime ray-tracing. Cell is quite a beast graphically too.

 

[mckmas8808]

"Sony has officially declared that at CES, CEO Howard Stringer will present a report containing all the information regarding the console."
Source

Is this just a site regurgitating information or is this official confirmation?

I wonder what "all the information" means. All the information we already know? Or all the information we don't yet know?

Shouldn't this get its own topic?

 

[kaching]

Well the expectations for BR is sky high isn't it? Not my fault, really. Seriouly though, DVD has had less than 10 years on the market. Kicking it to the curb this early just isn't the best way to treat the most beloved video format in history is it? Poor old DVD... We hardly knew ye.

You've got that the wrong way around - I haven't seen a single proponent of BD predict or even as much as hope that DVD would get kicked to the curb or propose any expectation greater than coexistence of the formats. BD opponents like yourself though seem to rely heavily on attempts to create strawmen to the contrary - if anyone's expectations are sky high in these conversations, its those of people like yourself who seem too invested in the idea that BD/HD-DVD will fail to allow for any other outcome.

 

[TTP]

Indeed. DVDs are here to stay for a long time as well as CDs are still here after the DVD introduction. You dont need a BD for *everything*.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

This Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD shit is for the birds. I just don't watch movies. Anyways, I'm starting my PS3 expeditures tomorrow. I'm pretty much caught up with 360 save for a few games. I'm anticipating a 500 dollar system, so I'm going to pay it off tomorrow. I might drop some money on a few games too.

 

[cyberheater]

XBox 360 AM CRY.

Mods. Is it possible to ban the next person who comes out with a statement like that on any console. I'm so sick of seeing that stuff on these boards. Almost every single thread.

Back on topic.

If/when bluray launches with PS3. How long will it be before all the major films will get converted to the new format.
Films like the Starwars box set or Lord of the Rings cause at the moment there is only one film being worked on and that's Charlie's Angels.

The day I can get me favourite films for reasonable money on Bluray is the day I pick up my PS3.

 

[mrklaw]

None of the broadcast HD is 1080p like BR is promising IIRC.

Broadcast 1080i/60 and BR 1080p/24 have the same bandwidth requirements. I don't know how BR will be encoded on disc, but it may be as 1080i/60, which is then deinterlaced to full 1080p progressive, as with DVD.

Realtime encode MPEG2 in HD resolutions and high bitrate right as you broadcast? I didn't think that was practical. Are you sure all HD broadcasts are not pre-encoded?
.

no, just a question. I know a bunch of stuff on digital TV in Europe is realtime converted to SD MPEG2. I wondered if it was the same.

 

[gofreak]

Films like the Starwars box set or Lord of the Rings cause at the moment there is only one film being worked on and that's Charlie's Angels.

No, that's the only movie you know about because it was the first to be pressed.

Initial titles should be announced at CES.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

Actually, there's a number of movies that are being prepped for blu-ray release. There's been a lot of discussion over in the AVS forums. I forget the list off the top of my head, but the few I can remember were Laurence of Arabia, the 2 resident evil movies, charlie's angel, and a several others, about 10 IIRC. Also, pretty much from this point out every movie coming out will be 1080p ready.

 

[ThirdEye]

Mods. Is it possible to ban the next person who comes out with a statement like that on any console. I'm so sick of seeing that stuff on these boards. Almost every single thread.

Back on topic.

If/when bluray launches with PS3. How long will it be before all the major films will get converted to the new format.
Films like the Starwars box set or Lord of the Rings cause at the moment there is only one film being worked on and that's Charlie's Angels.

The day I can get me favourite films for reasonable money on Bluray is the day I pick up my PS3.

I rather hope some new movie release on BD than conversion of old films.