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Charlottesville alt-right white nationalist torch rally

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Prodigal Son

Member
Elegant Weapon said:
Let me ask, are you on nazi forums trying to reasonably talk things out with them are do you just get off telling the targets of nazi violence and rhetoric how to react?
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I dont recall telling a victim how to react. You might be misreading something I've said.
I'm addressing people who want to pass laws to prevent protests of any kind from these people. That isn't freedom. That's antithetical to the principles of free protest were built on. That's injecting a local anesthetic to a bloody, severed stump.
 
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excelsiorlef

Member
Prodigal Son said:
????

I dont understand how you're connecting the first amendment with Donald Trump not wanting to shrink his base? So many other republican politicians under the same constitution spoke out against this.

I'll take a 'grand stand' against any and all social authoritarianism because it isn't what this country is supposed to be about. You dont compromise liberty to address problems. That's when the terrorists win. You also can't talk to people about their awful opinions if they're not allowed to say their awful opinions. We're already in a horribly anti-discussion culture here in the US. We're not about to worsen that with the easy way out.
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You have literal Nazis matching in your streets and you're bitching about Social Authoritarianism in countries who don't have a Nazi problem?

Also Nazism isn't just an awful opinion.

Be sure to let Canada, Germany, and many other Western countries that by not allowing literal Nazis to march down their streets they've let the terrorists win...

I mean if you look at Canada and Germany today and think well at least we don't have Social Authoritarians you have a problem.
 
Amibguous Cad

Amibguous Cad

Member
Elegant Weapon said:
You and the other moderates are potentially worse than the nazis with your quick judgments on how the oppressed should respond to violent oppressors. Yeah, tell me more about MLK while completely missing the point. Tone deaf as fuck
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Last I checked the Nazis put queers in concentration camps, so no, I don't have less skin in the game. But maybe next time don't be "tone deaf as fuck" by assuming my demographic status from my political positions.
 
S

Shy

Member
fUR38G1.jpg
 
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Elegant Weapon

Member
I just don't get how people who profess to want to start war shouldn't be met with violence

Nazi: Let's start a race war

also nazis: why did you punch me?


The shit is the height of white privilege, to not expect violence when actively inviting it


Good thing for this generation of nazis white supremacists fucks, they have moderates to protect them
 
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excelsiorlef

Member
Grug said:
I genuinely am not sure how I can make it any clearer? What is confusing you?

I simply said (and I was merely playing devils advocate) that a reticence to use violence does not equate to condoning Nazism and that conflating the two is unfair and politically counter-productive. Seems self-explanatory to me.
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The Devil has the best lawyers money can buy... he doesn't need your pro bono work.
 
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Prodigal Son

Member
excelsiorlef said:
I mean if you look at Canada and Germany today and think well at least we don't have Social Authoritarians you have a problem.
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or I just disagree with you. That's politics. Pardon me if this comes across as preachy, but these sort of disagreements are the kinds you have to swallow in a free society. You dont get to just pass laws to tell people to shutup.
 
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Frozenprince

Banned
Prodigal Son said:
or I just disagree with you. That's politics. Pardon me if this comes across as preachy, but these sort of disagreements are the kinds you have to swallow in a free society. You dont get to just pass laws to tell people to shutup.
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You do when those people openly advocate for genocide.
 
H

Hierophant

Banned
Prodigal Son said:
or I just disagree with you. That's politics. Pardon me if this comes across as preachy, but these sort of disagreements are the kinds you have to swallow in a free society. You dont get to just pass laws to tell people to shutup.
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"I want to murder all minorities and establish a white Christian ethnostate"

how the fuck do you argue against this? this isn't a real opinion?

and this is what they actually believe, their side's explicit goal is this
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Prodigal Son said:
I dont recall telling a victim how to react. You might be misreading something I've said.
I'm addressing people who want to pass laws to prevent protests of any kind from these people. That isn't freedom. That's antithetical to the principles of free protest were built on. That's injecting a local anesthetic to a bloody, severed stump.
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Do you look today at other countries with hate speech laws that ban Nazi marches and think well thank god I'm freer than them?
 
E

Elegant Weapon

Member
Amibguous Cad said:
Last I checked the Nazis put queers in concentration camps, so no, I don't have less skin in the game. But maybe next time don't be "tone deaf as fuck" by assuming my demographic status from my political positions.
Click to expand...

When did I make any assumption about your sexuality? You think because you're queer that you're automatically some ally? Is that honestly how you think it works?


you're tone deafness continues
 
K

King Tubby

Member
Snarky(HEART) said:
Solutions, please?
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I think there should absolutely be organized resistance, but I also think all-out violence, even towards monsters such as these, is likely to be counterproductive and feed the nonsense narrative that anti-fascists are "just as bad." I think the Nazis' own well-documented violence the past few days is going to cause them a lot of damage. If an antifascist shot a Nazi to death during the rally today, imagine how many (more) "both sides" hot takes we'd be seeing instead of near-universal condemnation by anyone who isn't a Pepe or the President.

I don't know what exactly the strategy for combating neo-Nazis should be, but I won't deny that it's necessary. I applaud all the counter-protesters who showed up and, in a lot of cases, shed blood for a just cause. I just think it should be well-considered. We all know damn well how much effort these Nazi scumbags put into trying to manipulate media coverage and public perception.
 
G

Grug

Member
D i Z said:
So you ain't about shit. Got it. You're useless. You're not actually talking about anything of relevance. You're just hitting keys on your keyboard.
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And there goes the context again. Right out of the ballpark. UN-BE-LIEV-A-BLE.

Could I have been any clearer in my original post in saying TWICE that I was personally of the persuasion that force is probably going to be a necessary tool in fighting these fuckers?

The entire point of my post was merely expressing my dismay at how readily people cast-aside and marginalise potential political allies (WHO SHARE THE SAME FUCKING CONTEMPT FOR WHITE SUPREMACISTS AS YOU DO) by resorting to shitty strawmen arguments and false labels rather than convincing them... a) what your strategy is and b) why it is the best course of action.

In a crisis people need to feel like soldiers, not marginalised victims, and whether it is at the ballot box or in the trenches of a bitter street protest, the more soldiers you have with you, the better.

My uncle is a huge reason I took a professional interest in politics. For decades he fought the far-right in Britain (from Neo-Nazis to mine owners, to predatory captalist corporationse) before and during the Thatcher years and has the physical and mental scars to prove it. There were no digital spaces and avatars to organise in then. It was far less abstract. And he bemoans over and over again that they had spend so much time trying to counter the "Splitter!" tendencies within their own ranks to stop the left eating each other alive as much as they spent battling the right. Next time you watch the Life of Brian and chuckle at the Judean Peoples Front stuff, just think about it.

Very easy to see the same thing happening again in this very thread. Drop the ego and the quest to come up with the cleverest forum quips and starting bringing like-minded people with you, or Breitbart and /pol/ fucks will be posting Sesame Street "L" gifs about us in 2018 and 2020. Fuck that shit. I have skin in this game in the form of a 21 month old son.

I'll leave it there. Because it doesn't seem like we are going to change each others minds.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Prodigal Son said:
or I just disagree with you. That's politics. Pardon me if this comes across as preachy, but these sort of disagreements are the kinds you have to swallow in a free society. You dont get to just pass laws to tell people to shutup.
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LOL

Just LOL.

Gain a modicrum of an actual worldview man.

You live in a country that lets Nazis roam free, you're fundamentally less free because of it.

You're moralizing to me about A Free Society, you're echoing American Exceptionalism on a day where Nazis marched and ran over people...

You actively look down upon those of us whose countries who have put in actual rules to generally stop this shit and call us Social Authoritarians

You somehow think that not letting Nazis (aka terrorists) march without impunitywould somehow be letting the terrorist win.

So nah I'm not going to agree to disagree with you.

And I'm not telling you to shut up I'm telling you you're wrong.
 
Amibguous Cad

Amibguous Cad

Member
Elegant Weapon said:
When did I make any assumption about your sexuality? You think because you're queer that you're automatically some ally? Is that honestly how you think it works?


you're tone deafness continues
Click to expand...

No, I don't think it automatically makes me an ally. You said that people not facing "violent oppression" should not lecture about nonviolence to people that do. I'm saying that the violent oppression of the alt-righters that protested today is aimed as much at my community as yours, so maybe you can stop implying that nonviolence is something only someone who doesn't have to face the consequences of failure could advocate.
 
L

Lois_Lane

Member
Amibguous Cad said:
Last I checked the Nazis put queers in concentration camps, so no, I don't have less skin in the game. But maybe next time don't be "tone deaf as fuck" by assuming my demographic status from my political positions.
Click to expand...
Milo.
Racist gay whites are a dime a dozen. Your sexuality means shit all.
 
P

Prodigal Son

Member
Hierophant said:
"I want to murder all minorities and establish a white Christian ethnostate"

how the fuck do you argue against this? this isn't a real opinion?

and this is what they actually believe, their side's explicit goal is this
Click to expand...

Calls for violence aren't protected by the first amendment. If they were chanting 'kill blacks'. Yeah. Hit them with every book out there. It becomes more legally dubious when they're clad with symbolism that can be construed as representing those ideas. And it becomes almost a legal non-issue when their chants are 'you will not replace us.'


excelsiorlef said:
LOL

You live in a country that lets Nazis roam free, you're fundamentally less free because of it.

You're moralizing to me about A Free Society, you're echoing American Exceptionalism on a day where Nazis marched and ran over people...
.
Click to expand...
I like my world view, thanks.

Im not into American exceptionalism by any stretch. I dont mean to convey the idea that I think America should uniquely have these ideas. Although I see how it would seem that way what with my talk of what 'this country' was built upon. I dont support these sort of laws anywhere.
 
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Elegant Weapon

Member
Prodigal Son said:
I dont recall telling a victim how to react. You might be misreading something I've said.
I'm addressing people who want to pass laws to prevent protests of any kind from these people. That isn't freedom. That's antithetical to the principles of free protest were built on. That's injecting a local anesthetic to a bloody, severed stump.
Click to expand...

Since you assert that we'll be in a perpetual race war by fighting back against assholes who want to ethnically "cleanse" us, yeah you kinda are telling people how to react.


You didn't answer my question. You believe these people can be reasoned with by talking to them, right?

Are you taking it upon yourself to talk to them or do you just get off telling people to tolerate men marching for the right to wipe us out?
 
S

Slayven

Member
Grug said:
And there goes the context again. Right out of the ballpark. UN-BE-LIEV-A-BLE.

Could I have been any clearer in my original post in saying TWICE that I was personally of the persuasion that force is probably going to be a necessary tool in fighting these fuckers?

The entire point of my post was merely expressing my dismay at how readily people cast-aside and marginalise potential political allies (WHO SHARE THE SAME FUCKING CONTEMPT FOR WHITE SUPREMACISTS AS YOU DO) by resorting to shitty strawmen arguments and false labels rather than convincing them... a) what your strategy is and b) why it is the best course of action.

In a crisis people need to feel like soldiers, not victims, and whether it is at the ballot box or in the trenches of a bitter street protest, the more soldiers you have with you, the better.

My uncle is a huge reason I took a professional interest in politics. For decades he fought the far-right in Britain (from Neo-Nazis to predatory captalists) before and during the Thatcher years and has the physical and mental scars to prove it. And he bemoans over and over again that they had spend so much time trying to counter the "Splitter!" tendencies within their own ranks to stop the left eating each other alive as much as they spent battling the right. Next time you watch the Life of Brian and chuckle at the Judean Peoples Front stuff, just think about it.

Very easy to see the same thing happening again in this very thread. Drop the ego and bring like-minded people with you, or Breitbart and /pol/ fucks will be posting Sesame Street "L" gifs about us in 2018 and 2020.

I'll leave it there. Because it doesn't seem like we are going to change each others minds.
Click to expand...
tell the people that got ran over and beaten today they need to pump your ego. If you can't see the need to do something and need your ego stroked, you don't really care and just dead weight
 
K

Kuroi Gogeta

Member
Mammoth Jones said:
"Poor ISIS members getting punched in the face!" This is how people sound to me defending this shit. Pretending they're "moderate". They're not moderate. Nothing moderate about treating White terrorists as anything other than terrorists. You know what that is? Enabling. That's right. You're enabling more right wing terrorism to continue by not calling it blatantly out and treating it for what it is.

No one would protect US born ISIS members to walk down the street, fly ISIS flag and call for the death of Americans. But it's ok for White terrorists to do the same? Why?
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Is this a rhetorical question?

Amibguous Cad said:
Absolutely nothing in that quote disagrees with nonviolence.

Because King never advocated violence.

There were not rifles at Selma, at least none wielded by the protesters. In Montgomery, King never bombed the buses, or city hall. He never once wavered from his commitment to nonviolence, and that is why he was as successful as he was.

White America has diluted King into an anodyne Mr. Rodgers "let's all get along," figure, but the left's attempt to portray him as a latter day Che Guevera is hardly more historical.
Click to expand...

There's more to it than that. The civil rights movement was a calculated ingenious machine of progress. The attack was on multiple fronts: A. Boycotts to disrupt profits of businesses that oppress. B. Destroy whatever moral authority the U.S. thinks it has on the world stage C. Stretch the very limits of the constitution and force cognitive dissonance on the populace. You can't treat the constitution as sacred and believe that all men are created equal while simultaneously stripping other american citizens of their rights. Either you believe in the constitution, or you're an un-american traitor.

People forget that Martin Luther King was one of the most hated men in America, he opposed American imperialism, he opposed racism, he opposed injustices of every kind, but his approach wasn't "I'll turn the other cheek until you feel bad enough about hurting my people" there was more to his approach that involved group economics--because he understood that if the american people respect nothing else, they respect money and power. He stripped that away in strategic ways. And as far as I know, MLK disagreed but never publicly spoke out against Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam's approach of self-defense.

King knew all about the south. You can't reason with or appeal to the moral conscience of people who hang your children from trees, mutilate the bodies and send the pieces to one another. You can't convince someone who would literally make postcards out of a lynching that what they are doing is wrong, or meet them with open arms on some Kumbaya shit. He recognized however, that even if black men and women were defending themselves, they optics would look bad internationally, even though he understood these methods.

These nazis are coming armed with weapons, ready to kill. At this point people can't treat people who are advocating for genocide as people who just simply have a different opinion that can be changed(not saying this is your viewpoint or what you're communicating with your post here). There are simply some people who will double down, they won't feel bad for beating you in the street or shooting you in the face or ramming you down with a car. They understand justice and they understand POWER. The only way to stop them is to use FORCE. Arrest them, imprison them, boycott any business that works with them, if you own a business refuse to serve them. If you work at a business that employs them, terminate them or refuse to hire them. Sitting around and waiting for politicians to come to their senses is a massive waste of time especially when many many many politicians low-key agree with white supremacy.
 
P

Prodigal Son

Member
Elegant Weapon said:
Since you assert that we'll be in a perpetual race war by fighting back against assholes who want to ethnically "cleanse" us, yeah you kinda are telling people how to react.


You didn't answer my question. You believe these people can be reasoned with by talking to them, right?

Are you taking it upon yourself to talk to them or do you just get off telling people to tolerate men marching for the right to wipe us out?
Click to expand...

Yeah I do personally. I have a couple alt-right 'friends' i talk with fairly often. I try to discuss things and keep it civil. I dont think they've been anything but bettered by our discussions. You dont convert a person in a weekend.

We arent in an improved state of race relations today because of nazi punching. When better, rational viewpoints dominate the market of ideas, society improves itself over time. That's how things have always been.


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is that fucking joey salads??
 
G

Grug

Member
Slayven said:
tell the people that got ran over and beaten today they need to pump your ego. If you can't see the need to do something...
Click to expand...

Oh my god. Read the first two lines of my post. Maybe do it twice. Now explain to me how you came to the conclusion that I "can't see the need to do something".

I swear some people just try to find one line that they can rip out of the surrounding context just to notch a forum W.
 
E

Elegant Weapon

Member
Prodigal Son said:
Yeah I do personally. I have a couple alt-right 'friends' i talk with fairly often. I try to discuss things and keep it civil. I dont think they've been anything but bettered by our discussions. You dont convert a person in a weekend.

We arent in an improved state of race relations today because of nazi punching. When better, rational viewpoints dominate the market of ideas, society improves itself over time. That's how things have always been.
Click to expand...

More martyrs, that's what we need to improve race relations.

We'll just let the minority bodies pile up and hope it convinces white american and your nazi friends to take it easier on us

thank you so fucking much
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Prodigal Son said:
I like my world view, thanks.

Im not into American exceptionalism by any stretch. I dont mean to convey the idea that I think America should uniquely have these ideas. Although I see how it would seem that way what with my talk of what 'this country' was built upon. I dont support these sort of laws anywhere.
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That's my point... you think America is exceptional aka better because they don't have those laws.

On this day you look at Nazis marching and think well at least we let them march...

Consider that. You have documented evidence that Nazism can be reduced and basically stopped with proper laws (literally you can look at the country who invented Nazism for proof) but you condemn it as Social Authoritarianism. You believe on the day when literal Nazis marched, caused oppressive violence and ran over people, that America is free because it lets them do it, because America lets Nazis openly express their desire for a genocide of all non white folk.

You seem to have more animus for the proven cure than the disease.

I think that's sad.

Also if you can't be convinced through dialogue that letting Nazis march and call for genocide is bad how do you expect Nazis to be convinced that being Nazis is bad?
 
N

nomis

Member
Prodigal Son said:
Yeah I do personally. I have a couple alt-right 'friends' i talk with fairly often. I try to discuss things and keep it civil. I dont think they've been anything but bettered by our discussions. You dont convert a person in a weekend.

We arent in an improved state of race relations today because of nazi punching. When better, rational viewpoints dominate the market of ideas, society improves itself over time. That's how things have always been.



is that fucking joey salads??
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mate you are delusional if you think the bolded is remotely true. it is to live in an aaron sorkinian version of reality if you think you can convert every single person who despises leftist policies with your godly rhetoric... people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into progressivity through political power manifested as policy
 
H

Hierophant

Banned
nomis said:
mate you are delusional if you think the bolded is remotely true. it is to live in an aaron sorkinian version of reality if you think you can convert every single person who despises leftist policies with your godly rhetoric... people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into progressively through political power manifested as policy
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The West Wing ruined political discourse for this generation
 
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