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[pjberri]

I read something recently about the female author of history books which detailed the terrible happenings in China during WWII. Upon her death the Western and Chinese media potryaed her as a hero whereas certain Jpanese media used her suicide as her admitting she was wrong.
I'm no expert but it seems the Japanese are failing to recognise what they did. The Chinese, perhaps because of their new found place as a world power, are demanding an apology and recognition of what was done. Victims are still alive so the subject is still very raw.

Well, her book had already been discredited for numerous things — while it does contain a lot of fact, overall there's too many untruths which, combined with the sensationalist tone of the book (putting it on the same level as the holocaust), had already destroyed her credibility.

My grandmother escaped the invasion of Nanking with nothing more than the clothes on her back and a dowry. She was given a small bag of valuables and told to run - and she did, while her brothers and parents were butchered, her infant nephew's head smashed in by a rifle butt and her sister raped, tortured and killed. I've made my peace with this part of my family history, but I cannot reconcile the idea that the Japanese are virtually 'willing' the massacre out of their cultural consciousness. Even the Germans have recognised their part in WWII. The Japanese are proud and conservative to a fault and, as far as I'm concerned, they got everything they deserved when they were nuked. Americans may feel guilt over it. For what it's worth, if you can't feel pride for it, then I'll feel it for you. Karma's a bitch and I don't feel a shred of sympathy for them.

Needless to say, as someone working in the games industry, I am deeply conflicted every time I think about it.

While I hold a lot of sympathy for your grandmother and all people involved in the tragedy, what you're saying is ridiculous. Japanese infantrymen who raped, tortured and killed Chinese civilians aren't the same Japanese civilians who die slow and painful death with melting skin and blinded eyes from the bombs dropped at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. To quote Jay-Z :lol, "an eye for an eye — we both lose our sight, two wrongs don't make a right". It's like saying the victims in Nanjing had it coming due to the fact that every Chinese dynasty had launched attacks against Korea.

The Japanese have acknowledged that the 'rape of Nanking' occured, government included, there are even quite a few books detailing it. Government officials denying it happened have usually been older citizens, and in pretty much all of the cases, have been sacked or seriously demoted. This isn't a case of the Japanese acknowledging it—they've done that, it's a case of the Chinese wanting them to apologise for it, and the government refusing to because the feel they shouldn't have to feel the burden of the actions of past generations. I agree with people saying they should apologise for it, but most of you seem to be confused because they HAVE acknowledged the fact that it happened.

There is absolutely no reason to hate the average Japanese person of today, or even most of them back in the period which the atrocity occured in, because most of them didn't have a hand in that. All it took was a few fucked up people to trigger the crazed Japanese soldiers, and that's what happened.

 

[ourumov]

Saw it on TV and I wasn't very surprised. Nearly all the asian countries have strong hate against Japan because of it's pass-story.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Add that to the fact that no western society has really experienced the type of acts that the Chinese experienced there... and you have a situation where its nearly impossible for people who are more or less completely uneducated to even have the right to an opinion here.

...the fuck you talking about. Have you ever heard about what happened on the eastern front? Basically, when the soviets took over berlin, they either raped or killed every german they saw. Granted, not as harsh as the Japanese treated the Chinese, but thats like saying getting shot in the head with a handgun isn't as messy as shotgun to the head.

The difference with the germans, and I know this sounds horribly callous, but that the Jews that were there were largely immigrants in the first place. Maybe second or third generation, but still. Their culture wasn't built around Germany... only built to interact with it.

Before you say something like this, know your damn facts. Most of Jewish cutlture in Eastern Europe arose between 1200 and 1500, after the populations were expulsed from England, France, and most notably Spain (if you don't know the reason, please hit yourself). And here is a shocker, thats more then three generations between the middle ages and world war 2, if I am doing my math right. And yes, back then, they were also forced to live in ghettos in some places in Europe, which is why they had their own seperate, but German culture.

 

[Ninjas4Less]

I dont think anyone deserves nukes. I also think reparations and apologies outside of generation is worthless, and is merely a new power struggle that only creates new hostilities.

You know what war is? Hell. Its not fun, and the normal rules are broken. Everyone involved is taken to another place during war times and while they should be held accountable, it shouldnt ever echo through future generations.

Life is hard, war is bad, and it happens. Some people have it good, some have it hard, but NONE of us DESERVE anything we get. Sure, living well doesnt always happen for everyone. We play the hand we're dealt by changing our situation. How far we're willing to go is left up to our conscience.

The civilization all of us are enjoying at this very moment is built upon the blood of innocents as well as the guilty. I rarely see anyone take meaningful notice of that fact because they cannot gain from it.

We need to remember, but this demand for anything else is pretty silly. The world is fucked up because everyone thinks they are so very entitled and that other people 'deserve' so much. To quote unforgiven: Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

 

[Zaptruder]

Fucking retarded.

Both Chinese nationalism and the arrogance of Japanese law/schoolbook makers (for lack of better term).

I mean... disregarding the whole japanese/chinese thing... a whole bunch of crazy atrocious shit normally happens during wars. The Holocaust, ending up as bad as it did due to just general group think (best summarized by that poem about hitler's men coming for various groups, then no one else left but 'me'), american inaction, American's using atom bombs, american's having to be tactically forced into a position of using nuclear bombs, carpet bombing with phosphor bombs, resulting in 900k+ deaths in Japan alone (more in germany)... and 8 digit losses in human life...

In that scheme of things, the people that obsess about that kind of atrocity, are losing sight and point of why those things are atrocious in the first place. Because the acts required such a mind set... that allowed them to happen. They ignore that entirely, to repeat the same mistakes that had caused those atrocities in the first place.

As for the japanese removing references of their countries sins from the memories of their children; foolish; if only because it would give them a frame of reference what kind of country Japan has been; That they need to step carefully in order to stop from once again going so low... that their history has not always been filled with bombastic glory.

Even though it can be fairly said, that what your grandfather has wrought upon my grandfather are their business and not mine;
The process of reconciliation can still be a tricky one... if I'm so disadvantaged by the problems wrought in the past, in such a terrible situation, while you're in such a good one, then there should definetly be room for compensation. An apology is immaterial; Most needed is a recognition that these mistakes can't be afforded to be repeated.

On the other hand, even though the numbers are relatively attrocious... the atrocities at nanking are a far cry from the economic and social impact wrought upon itself by it's ruling communist party in its early days; nowadays, the economic and even social devastation can be righted by the economic investment made by japanese into china, such that calls for additional compensation is superfluous at best... and once again reach into an area that ignores the real lessons that should be taken away from such atrocities.

And from me; an absolute comdemnation of the chinese actions of protest; attacking anything remotely resembling japanese on chinese soil... only hurts china. Hurting the japanese that move their; hurting the few japanese allies that understand the plight of the chinese and their feelings, and well... they've also beat up chinese people with japanese stuff as well as chinese cars, made in japan.
They're like neo-cons, I swear.

 

[Blackace]

I don't think it's as simple as that. It's all about giving face. I give face to you, you give face to me - a little like rubbing each other's backs. When China said all was forgiven (I actually only have vague memories of this happening), the next thing for Japan to do is acknowledge its wrongdoings and move forward with the relationship.

As I understand it, Japan hasn't actually done anything of the sort. They continue to commemorate the atrocities they've committed, which for all intents and purposes is a slap in the face for China. Can you blame the Chinese for interpreting it that way and reneging on their gesture of goodwill?

I wouldn't be so quick to say China isn't entitled to complain about Japan because of its own human rights issues. It's like telling Americans they'd best get rid of George W Bush before they start telling other countries how to run their affairs. You might think George W Bush is a bit of an idiot, but you'll be damned if some foreigner tells you how to run your own country.

I understand the whole face giving thing... really I do... But to complain about something you already said was water under the bridge is a little wishy-washy. I know the people of China didn't forgive the people of Japan for their misdeeds but China (the country) needs to step up to the plate and stand by what they said...Granted they said it was all forgiven for commerce....

 

[whytemyke]

...the fuck you talking about. Have you ever heard about what happened on the eastern front? Basically, when the soviets took over berlin, they either raped or killed every german they saw. Granted, not as harsh as the Japanese treated the Chinese, but thats like saying getting shot in the head with a handgun isn't as messy as shotgun to the head.



Before you say something like this, know your damn facts. Most of Jewish cutlture in Eastern Europe arose between 1200 and 1500, after the populations were expulsed from England, France, and most notably Spain (if you don't know the reason, please hit yourself). And here is a shocker, thats more then three generations between the middle ages and world war 2, if I am doing my math right. And yes, back then, they were also forced to live in ghettos in some places in Europe, which is why they had their own seperate, but German culture.

First off, you're comparing what the Soviets did to the Germans to what the Japanese did to the Chinese. The Germans were the attacking Army, supported (as ignorantly as they were) by the Germany population as a whole. The Chinese, on the other hand, were never in an attacking position against the Japanese. The japs declared war and moved in on them almost immediately. The Chinese were not the agressors. You're comparing an agressor nation to a nation that was attacked, devastated, and then allowed revenge.

Second off, the fact of the matter is that whether the Jewish culture was there for a few generations or 500 years, it wasn't their literal, cultural (read: ethnic) homeland like the Chinese had. We're talking about comparing a group of immigrants to a culture who had existed in the same area for thousands upon thousands of years. To say that Europe was their cultural origination for the Jews is like saying that America is a cultural origination for me, where any American clearly understands that their culture really stems back to a different continent. This isn't to say that we wouldn't be devastated were the same things to happen here... but I imagine it'd be a lot worse if this was our home for 5000 years and it was destroyed, versus what it'd be like if the states were destroyed today.

I understand your point, and it's a good one, but it is ultimately based on awful logic, and completely ignoring the main point of my argument that nobody on this board is really qualified to give an opinion, save for a few different Japanese or chinese people, or people like blackace who have a college degree in it, or people who are a part of a race which has undergone the same treatment in recent history. So unless we see some european jews here, or some tutsis on the board or native americans, then I stand by my opinion.

(not that being in the position to give an opinion has ever stopped GAF from giving an opinion before. )

 

[909er]

I don't think any western culture is suited to have an opinion on what's going on here. Both of those (all of) civillizations are sooo old and date back for so long. They were making advanced war with each other while most of us were walking around in loincloths. Add that to the fact that no western society has really experienced the type of acts that the Chinese experienced there... and you have a situation where its nearly impossible for people who are more or less completely uneducated to even have the right to an opinion here.



another ignorant thing said, hm? That'd be the equivalent of the Germans coming out tomorrow and saying: "Hear ye hear ye; all jews should recognize that genocide ended sixty years ago. Get over it and fuck off." do you really think that'd be taken well? Like I said... most of us here (including myself and of course you) are unfit to give an opinion on this situation.

I'm part japanese and grew up in Japan hearing this shit. yeah, Japan should do more to appologize, but they DID apologize. Including a large, large sum of money. I'm pretty much tired of being half blamed for something my grandfathers generation did.

However, I didn't phrase it right. What I mean is, the reason China is doing this is OBVIOUSLY not because they are pissed at Japan so much as they are trying to distract the public from the horrible shit that the Chinese govt does. If something I did years ago was brought up to distract everyone else, I would call that guy out on it and tell him to fuck off.

I would also like to add that Republicans are doing the exact same kind of thing in America, and that adds to my anger as a whole to groups that do this. If I came off as ignorant, that wasn't my intent.

 

[whytemyke]

I'm part japanese and grew up in Japan hearing this shit. yeah, Japan should do more to appologize, but they DID apologize. Including a large, large sum of money. I'm pretty much tired of being half blamed for something my grandfathers generation did.

However, I didn't phrase it right. What I mean is, the reason China is doing this is OBVIOUSLY not because they are pissed at Japan so much as they are trying to distract the public from the horrible shit that the Chinese govt does. If something I did years ago was brought up to distract everyone else, I would call that guy out on it and tell him to fuck off.

Well, I understand what you're saying, although I don't think the people are doing it to hide their contempt for their own government. I think the PRC is letting it continue to distract from their own problems (at least as one reason), but I highly doubt the average person doing the protests believes that there's even anything wrong with their own government. I've seen some interviews and chatted to some Chinese myself, and a lot of this stuff all comes back to people being HAPPY that the government doesn't force them to think on their own. Not really good, but still, my point is that I believe the people of China really truly do believe what they're saying.

 

[909er]

Well, I understand what you're saying, although I don't think the people are doing it to hide their contempt for their own government. I think the PRC is letting it continue to distract from their own problems (at least as one reason), but I highly doubt the average person doing the protests believes that there's even anything wrong with their own government. I've seen some interviews and chatted to some Chinese myself, and a lot of this stuff all comes back to people being HAPPY that the government doesn't force them to think on their own. Not really good, but still, my point is that I believe the people of China really truly do believe what they're saying.

That's what scares me. Its like all the Americans who blindly thought that supporting the Patriot Act is PATRIOTIC.

 

[909er]

I don't think any western culture is suited to have an opinion on what's going on here. Both of those (all of) civillizations are sooo old and date back for so long. They were making advanced war with each other while most of us were walking around in loincloths. Add that to the fact that no western society has really experienced the type of acts that the Chinese experienced there... and you have a situation where its nearly impossible for people who are more or less completely uneducated to even have the right to an opinion here.

Actually, the Chinese were at their height when the Greeks and later the Romans were at their height as well. The Chinese were never inherently more "advanced" than the Europeans until they got screwed because of the fall of the Roman Empire.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I'm part japanese and grew up in Japan hearing this shit. yeah, Japan should do more to appologize, but they DID apologize. Including a large, large sum of money. I'm pretty much tired of being half blamed for something my grandfathers generation did.

However, I didn't phrase it right. What I mean is, the reason China is doing this is OBVIOUSLY not because they are pissed at Japan so much as they are trying to distract the public from the horrible shit that the Chinese govt does. If something I did years ago was brought up to distract everyone else, I would call that guy out on it and tell him to fuck off.

I would also like to add that Republicans are doing the exact same kind of thing in America, and that adds to my anger as a whole to groups that do this. If I came off as ignorant, that wasn't my intent.

:lol


That is why the Republicans send people over to China .. so they can learn thier diversionary tactics. You figured it out!

 

[Pochacco]

The whole point of learning about history is so that we don't repeat mistakes of the past.
If the Japanese are, in fact, leaving out things in their textbooks, then this is wrong.
Basically equivalent to someone denying the Holocaust. It's dangerous, and it's not respectful to the victims.

 

[909er]

The whole point of learning about history is so that we don't repeat mistakes of the past.
If the Japanese are, in fact, leaving out things in their textbooks, then this is wrong.
Basically equivalent to someone denying the Holocaust. It's dangerous, and it's not respectful to the victims.

The US history books makes very little mention of the genocide on the native americans, or makes it sounds a cleaner.

And I bet my left nut that China of all nations screens the hell out of their history books.

So why the attack only on Japan?

 

[Ninjas4Less]

cause everyone else is! duh!

 

[Gek54]

The US history books makes very little mention of the genocide on the native americans, or makes it sounds a cleaner.

All my history classes here in Texas painted a very very poor picture as to how the native americans were treated through out US history; backstabbings, trail of tears, slaughters, beads for land, rapings, blankets full of disease. Even the Japanese concentration camps were talked about in good detail.

 

[pjberri]

Fucking retarded.

Both Chinese nationalism and the arrogance of Japanese law/schoolbook makers (for lack of better term).

I was under the impression that the textbook 'scandal' was resolved quite a while ago.

 

[ScientificNinja]

While I hold a lot of sympathy for your grandmother and all people involved in the tragedy, what you're saying is ridiculous. Japanese infantrymen who raped, tortured and killed Chinese civilians aren't the same Japanese civilians who die slow and painful death with melting skin and blinded eyes from the bombs dropped at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. To quote Jay-Z :lol, "an eye for an eye — we both lose our sight, two wrongs don't make a right". It's like saying the victims in Nanjing had it coming due to the fact that every Chinese dynasty had launched attacks against Korea.

I'm not trying to justify the use of nuclear weapons - I agree they're horrible and I've no doubt that, in some way, the older Chinese dynasties probably paid for their own past wrong-doings. And likewise, the Japanese paid for their aggressive imperialism. That's the beauty of Karma. If it were me deciding on whether to push the red "NUKE THEM" button, I would've had second thoughts. That decision wasn't mine - someone else made that decision and chose on their cognisance to nuke their asses. One could say that they brought it upon themselves. For my part, as it all happened before my time, I can only acknowledge what has happened with the contentment that it is the truth.

I understand the whole face giving thing... really I do... But to complain about something you already said was water under the bridge is a little wishy-washy. I know the people of China didn't forgive the people of Japan for their misdeeds but China (the country) needs to step up to the plate and stand by what they said...Granted they said it was all forgiven for commerce....

Yes, one solution to the problem would be to say that one of them needs to 'be the bigger man' about it. A very Western approach. A similarly Western approach would be to say the Chinese acted in good faith and the Japanese acted in bad faith by continuing to commemorate their past atrocities. The Chinese are therefore entitled to choose whatever they'd like to do. Bear this in mind - if the Chinese decide to turn the other cheek, they'd be extending themselves further and making themselves vulnerable to further humiliation. It's the whole "Fool me once" thing. Given Japan's track record, would you even bother? At any rate, it's only water under my bridge - I can't help it if other Chinese won't let go.

 

[Shouta]

I highly doubt the Japanese are "commemorating" their actions from the past unless you'd like to point out some information SNinja.

 

[Dsal]

Filipinos on the other hand don't seem to hold any real grudge. My grandmother lived in Manila when the city was destroyed, and yet didn't look offended when she found out I like Japan. Just an interesting thought.

I don't know about that; my dad still holds a grudge about his village being razed. He wasn't even quite born yet but he still thinks that way. On an individual basis, he has some Japanese friends and gets a long with them fine, but his general attitude toward the abstraction of their nation is still the same.

 

[909er]

I highly doubt the Japanese are "commemorating" their actions from the past unless you'd like to point out some information SNinja.

Yeah, that commemorating thing is pure bullshit. I lived in japan, and nobody was happy about the "good ol' days". If the japanese were happy about that era, they wouldn't be so damn pacifistic and scared of ANYTHING that could lead to any military conflict. And it's not like Japan has a weak military right now either.

 

[Brannon]

blankets full of disease.

Those smallpox blankets were pure evil. I remember reading about that, wondering what smallpox was, then reading about smallpox. That was a WTF moment for me.

We 'Merkins can be a bunch of sick fucks, ya know.

 

[Blackace]

Yeah, that commemorating thing is pure bullshit. I lived in japan, and nobody was happy about the "good ol' days". If the japanese were happy about that era, they wouldn't be so damn pacifistic and scared of ANYTHING that could lead to any military conflict. And it's not like Japan has a weak military right now either.

Koizumi and the media do make an extra big deal about shrine of fallen war "heroes". I live in Japan right now, and if they went to war with anyone a large part country would support their soldiers, not as blindly as WWII.

As for military.... I don't know where you get the idea that they have a strong military...but they will have a chance to have one again...most likely this year. People have been lobbying to change Art. 9....

 

[Pochacco]

The US history books makes very little mention of the genocide on the native americans, or makes it sounds a cleaner.

And I bet my left nut that China of all nations screens the hell out of their history books.

So why the attack only on Japan?

Beacause it's in the news right now. Because that's what this thread is about.
One idiotic country at a time young grasshopper.

 

[Blackace]

Don't get me wrong, 909er, I know that the American history books are fucked... If I had to read about the fucking cotten gin one more fucking time I swear I would have killed someone.. But on the flipside America does have a whole black history month and has laws to help blacks and native Americans... Another thing is that people from that time are still alive, from both sides. How would you feel if America said they never dropped Hiroshima, or Nagasaki? "nope didn't happen wasn't us!"

I stand kind of in the middle on this... living in Japan and having majored in Japanese history I am often shocked about how little people know of their own history. I know this happens everywhere, but I am a teacher, and the people I talk to are fellow teachers and students. If these people don't know anything then most likely the people who have not had chance to get a good education know even less... Therefore, Japan cannot learn from their mistakes.

And China needs to sit on it...really... they kissed ass before to get the Japanese Yen into their country now they want to act like anything bad that has happened to them is Japan's fault... If they want to remember history they should go back a little further... because if it wasn't for Japan half of China would be speaking Russian....

 

[ScientificNinja]

Yeah, that commemorating thing is pure bullshit. I lived in japan, and nobody was happy about the "good ol' days". If the japanese were happy about that era, they wouldn't be so damn pacifistic and scared of ANYTHING that could lead to any military conflict. And it's not like Japan has a weak military right now either.

I honestly wouldn't know if Japan is 'happy' about the old days - they've remained mostly silent on the matter and it's the implications of that silence that's causing the antagonism. Besides, I don't see your point about Japan being scared about use of military force - they had a presence in Iraq and they're applying to join the UN Security Council (one of the reasons their relationship with China is in the spotlight right now). And unless I'm mistaken they've even declared that they are willing to use pre-emtive force against places like North Korea.

 

[Blackace]

I honestly wouldn't know if Japan is 'happy' about the old days - they've remained mostly silent on the matter and it's the implications of that silence that's causing the antagonism. Besides, I don't see your point about Japan being scared about use of military force - they had a presence in Iraq and they're applying to join the UN Security Council (one of the reasons their relationship with China is in the spotlight right now). And unless I'm mistaken they've even declared that they are willing to use pre-emtive force against places like North Korea.

Maybe I wasn't clear...they are pushing for a deployable military this year...the 60th year of Hiroshima...

 

[talking head]

like many people i'm sure, i knew nothing of the nanjing massacre. so i googled it and found this very graphic but educational article. read this.

 

[Blackace]

like many people i'm sure, i knew nothing of the nanjing massacre. so i googled it and found this very graphic but educational article. read this.

Read the Rape of Nanking. It has the most complete information about it in one source that I have found....