CyclopsRock
Member
... Doesn't that prove it is about the cake? Or, rather, they are claiming that.
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Christian Cake Company Refuses to Create Cake for Group in Support of Gay Marriage
- Thread starter Deaf Spacker
- Start date
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... Doesn't that prove it is about the cake? Or, rather, they are claiming that.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Why are bakeries getting targeted like this lol. Do people intentionally go to these Christian bakeries and tell them to make something they know they will refuse to make just to give them bad publicity?
It just sounds so weird.
It just sounds so weird.
But your analogy is wrong too. They aren't refusing to serve gay people. They are refusing to make a certain cake. They would deny making that cake no matter what the client's sexuality is.
Probably not. I would gather they would still take offense, because of their beliefs or something.
CrocMother
Banned
That is what it seems like, whether that's what the people suing intended or not.
Well, sure, but I'm curious as to why my own intuition falls that way, and if there's any reasonable justification for it to do so.
eudaemonic
Member
I feel like they fucked up by actually expressing their views on the issue. They simply could have said that they are declining the cake on the basis that it's using trademarked characters to promote without consent. QueerSpace wouldn't have had a case against them then.
I don't know much about them (QueerSpace) but I noticed they're referred to as a pressure group. Is it common for them to go after people? Seems odd a paper would label them as such unless the Guardian is known for any biases (which I am unaware of).
I don't know much about them (QueerSpace) but I noticed they're referred to as a pressure group. Is it common for them to go after people? Seems odd a paper would label them as such unless the Guardian is known for any biases (which I am unaware of).
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, does the work that a print shop engages in count as on commission work as well if all they're doing is printing the files they're provided? The organization didn't tell them "artistically realizes this for us", they provided an image and said "put this on a cake"
I have a feeling there were probably a bunch of cakes on display showing plenty of trademarked characters already.
AdventureMike
Member
I'm fairly sure there are plenty of individuals out there that would happily pick out Christian businesses in general for this purpose.
One thing I'm not sure has been brought up, but many have mentioned the potential loss of business to gays/etc. by refusing to make this design. What about the potential loss of other Christians/affiliated businesses by agreeing to do it? Maybe they just wanted to stay out of it and preserve relationships with Churches/etc that they could do work with.
Ask any tattoo artist.
The Albatross
Member
Better question for me is why anybody would order any bakery item from any part of Ireland. Jesus, do you want to actually eat it or what?
On the actual topic..
I don't think that a bakery should be able to discriminate against someone based on their sexuality. I do think that a bakery should be able to discriminate based on the request of the individual. These are two different things, to me.
On the actual topic..
I don't think that a bakery should be able to discriminate against someone based on their sexuality. I do think that a bakery should be able to discriminate based on the request of the individual. These are two different things, to me.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I'd refuse the design too. Owners are stupid for not simply stating copyright concerns and they they additionally do not deal in political promotion.
But they went the biblical route it seems like. At least everyone knows their beliefs now and can spend or not spend their money accordingly.
Edit: In print shops, they have signs posted everywhere about refusing to work with any copyrighted materials you are not authorized to copy. Clear as day everywhere.
But they went the biblical route it seems like. At least everyone knows their beliefs now and can spend or not spend their money accordingly.
Edit: In print shops, they have signs posted everywhere about refusing to work with any copyrighted materials you are not authorized to copy. Clear as day everywhere.
I don't get it.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Well what's worse?
Telling people they won't get their cake?
Or suing people for their religious beliefs?
Telling people they won't get their cake?
Or suing people for their religious beliefs?
888
Member
Umm I don't see anything about people mentioned in the quote. It sounds like they deliberated about the cake itself and decided they weren't comfortable with it. It is not like they threw the people out of the store while screaming obscenities. It sounds like they thought it over and gave them a call to say they wouldn't accept the job. The fact that they took time to think it over should show that they weren't immediately against it.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
I honestly don't see where the outrage comes in to play. Smells like hyperbole to me.
It's not like they said "we don't serve queers."
What am I missing that has caused a 5 page+ discussion to break out?
In this case? The former.
They're refusing to make the cake becasue they're homophobic. That's why the discussion broke out.
eudaemonic
Member
And I figured that too... but it's one thing when it's on a five year old's birthday cake. It's another when it's promoting what can be seen as a political statement. I'd imagine bakeries get a list of things those characters can and cannot be used on since you can buy licensed decals.
Or maybe not. I've never worked at a bakery so I dunno what the rules are.
The Albatross
Member
There's a centuries old joke that Irish food is horrible, it's generally pretty true. "Cuisine" from the UK & British Isles is all pretty terrible
calling them bigots implies that they hate, fear or distrust homosexuals. I would posit, you don't have enough information to make this claim. Nor can you simply call them bigots because they are Christian and disagree with gay marriage. Are there Christians who hate gay people simply because they are gay? Sure. That doesnt mean they all do.
There are several reasons I would say you could easily defend not making this cake:
1) bert and ernie arent official gay
2) the design is hideous
last and certainly not least
3) a business cannot be forced to make any design just because someone brings it to them.
For me its not a gay rights issue, or bigotry issue or anything, I believe a business has the right to not do a design for any reason. Now, if they said we're not going to do the design because you're gay, thats completely different issue.
Deified Data
Banned
I don't understand why these bakeries can't just say "we're not available to make this cake" and leave it at that. It's literally a world of difference between that and "we're not going to do this because you're gay".
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Well now it's the case of religious discrimination.
Would you think the same if they refused to make a cake with a message about racial equality? My problem with this mindset is that it reinforces the idea that it's okay to personally oppose equality (there's a word for people who do that). In the end I think they shouldn't sue. I'd just make it public and find another bakery.
ab.aeterno
Member
I was going to say, that seems a completely unfair accusation to make without any evidence that was their intention. They got that same cake made elsewhere, so it's not as though it was being made without a seeming purpose.
It's also ironic in context of people cautioning against labeling the bakery's intentions as bigoted based on inference of intent from their action.
Don't you think you're being kind of irrational about all this? And religious and homophobic aren't the same thing. They didn't kick the people out of the shop, they weren't mean to them, they just didn't want to make a specific cake that went against their beliefs.
Yeah, I have evangelical Christians in my family that love me, but believe I am going to hell for not believing. They don't think I'm evil. They just have a "It's God's will" attitude about it.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
People are getting tripped up because the bakers committed a common mistake of those on the defensive in a culture conflict: decided to base their public stance on promoting their own agenda vs the agenda they objected to. So now it's "bigots vs tolerance".
Frankly, because they referenced the bible and morality, the odds are increased they disapprove of gay people, period. They might be general bigots. That also doesn't change the fact that the requested cake is a piece of political material. It's not really a personal service for someone's wedding.
If you refuse to, say, sign the customer's name on an item when that's your advertised service, because you don't like them, that's discrimination. This is, AFAIK, what has happened in a few other cases relating to same-sex weddings. The stores in those instances decided they would show off how much they protect society by turning away the gay people just because. And they got in shit for straight up discrimination against people because of inherent qualities, like skin color.
Frankly, because they referenced the bible and morality, the odds are increased they disapprove of gay people, period. They might be general bigots. That also doesn't change the fact that the requested cake is a piece of political material. It's not really a personal service for someone's wedding.
If you refuse to, say, sign the customer's name on an item when that's your advertised service, because you don't like them, that's discrimination. This is, AFAIK, what has happened in a few other cases relating to same-sex weddings. The stores in those instances decided they would show off how much they protect society by turning away the gay people just because. And they got in shit for straight up discrimination against people because of inherent qualities, like skin color.
glaringradio
Member
With the sequence of events that are happening currently, I reckon even if they did say "we're not available to make this cake", the people at Queerspace would have made damn well sure that Asher's made the headlines anyway.
AcademicSaucer
Member
ths is getting ridiculous, i feel for the northern irish christians
He is. He's making assumptions he cannot back up.
BlueBadger
Banned
This business will go sour of it's own accord I think. And I sorta hope so. They can definitely make their own decisions because it's their business. But if their decision is to discriminate, they don't really get any sympathy from me if their business goes under :|.
Randomizer
Member
Not a good news week for Northern Ireland. First that girl who sucked 24 dicks for a drink and now this. Whilst I do believe the bakery have they right to refuse they are still a bunch of cunts.
Just wait until the weekend.
GingerNathan
Member
The company statement they released claimed the issue was the logo of QueerSpace, no mention of Burt and Ernie or the text which said Support Gay Marriage.
I get the impression they didn't want to be seen supporting this group in a part of the UK which is ever so sensitive when it comes to religion.
Ninja Scooter
Member
The law doesn't allow business owners to discriminate against people so long as their nice about it.
glaringradio
Member
Cunts who make a killer range of sausage rolls and pies, I can live with this.
ab.aeterno
Member
No, they very explicitly do not have that absolute legal right. They can only refuse service so long as they are not doing so because the customer is a protected class. The question of whether this situation falls under that is what's of debate in this thread.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
A business going under for religious reasons in a religious country?
You'll find that there are more Catholics in Ireland than anything else.
If they're religion says being gay is wrong, and they choose to believe that, then yes, they are homophobic. In this case the cake that went against their beliefs was one pushing for basic human rights.
Would you also have no problem if they refused to make a cake that said interracial marriage is OK because it goes against their beliefs?
Ultimadrago
Member
Where's the statement commenting about the customer here?
PrivateWHudson
Member
What if the proprietors were gay and didn't want to make that cake because they didn't like the word Queer?
Deified Data
Banned
Politely say "our workload is too great to make your cake".
End of discussion. Couple moves on to another bakery, bakery treats customers with dignity and remain unmolested by the whip of public opinion in return. Everyone wins. The world is so much easier to get along in if you just exercise the barest modicum of tact.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
So you're telling a Catholic family to lie.
It doesn't go against their beliefs though, so that's a moot analogy. In the case that such a religion did exist I would be glad to discuss with you the implications.
And I'm now about 90% sure you've made up your own definition for homophobic.
The logic you are displaying here is that if they arent with me, they're against me. Additionally, you've basically made a supposition that the right to freedom of religion is entirely worthless because most religions don't support gay marriage.
Or is your choice of wording just poor?
Deaf Spacker
Memb
No they don't, why do some people continue to think this?
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Oh boy, you can't be serious.
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