Christian Cake Company Refuses to Create Cake for Group in Support of Gay Marriage

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poppabk said:
What if there isn't a bakery at all? Should someone be forced to open a bakery in every town to meet cake making requirements? What if there is a bakery but they don't make custom cakes, should they be forced to?
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What the hell are you talking about? The business exists. They are engaged in the business of making custom cakes. They provide this service to other people.

When you open a business to perform service X you are saying "I will perform service X". That's kind of intrinsic
 
The Technomancer said:
Because what if they can't find anyone who will service them? This is less of a problem with something like web development, but with something like say, a cake, you pretty much have to use a local bakery, and if you live in a small city or town then your ability to be serviced is completely at the mercy of the local buisnessowners.
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Get some flour then.
 
TheLostBigBoss said:
No. I'm not actively requesting state law to force my own belief system into a persons life.
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If it were a gay couple who owned the bakery, and the customer asked for a cake containing the Bible passage from Leviticus 18:22, should the owners have the right to refuse to make the cake?
 
TheLostBigBoss said:
No. I'm not actively requesting state law to force my own belief system into a persons life and how they are able to live on a day to day basis.
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I know plenty of christians who actively support gay rights, but still believe that it is a sin. Do we actually know if these people are voting against gay rights, or simply don't support them?

Because if they aren't, then what I'm gathering is that the very act of being a Christian or a neutral party is = being a bigot.
 
Flo_Evans said:
Get some flour then.
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Other people don't have to get flour because they're not being refused service by a business who's stated function is providing custom cakes. That's my point. When you open a business to do a thing you're saying that you do that thing.

lorebringer said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

I'm not trying to be a dick here, this a legitimate question about the ramifications of your belief that service providers should be forced to provide service.
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And my point is that if you have opened a turnip engraving business then yes, people who come to you offering you money to have turnips carved should get their turnips carved. Don't want to do it? Close the business. No-one is saying that you have to provide the service, just that if you do provide it you have to provide it to everyone.
 
stonesak said:
If it were a gay couple who owned the bakery, and the customer asked for a cake containing the Bible passage from Leviticus 18:22, should the owners have the right to refuse to make the cake?
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Yes, it's not even comparable.

Hypoallergenic Chie said:
I know plenty of christians who actively support gay rights, but still believe that it is a sin. Do we actually know if these people are voting against gay rights, or simply don't support them?

Because if they aren't, then what I'm gathering is that the very act of being a Christian or a neutral party is = being a bigot.
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Believing that being gay is a sin makes you a bigot.
 
stonesak said:
If it were a gay couple who owned the bakery, and the customer asked for a cake containing the Bible passage from Leviticus 18:22, should the owners have the right to refuse to make the cake?
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Hypoallergenic Chie said:
I know plenty of christians who actively support gay rights, but still believe that it is a sin. Do we actually know if these people are voting against gay rights, or simply don't support them?

Because if they aren't, then what I'm gathering is that the very act of being a Christian or a neutral party is = being a bigot.
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I was simply responding to the notion that being intolerant of people who hold intolerant view points and actively try to shape and mold other peoples way of life is not being a bigot.

Shitting on people for being Christian is, but I should have made it more clear. While I find the notion of thinking being gay is a sin and not deserving of the same rights of a straight person utterly ridiculous and completely out of touch with reality, just being a Christian doesn't mean you hold that view point.
 
Kinsei said:
You are seriously comparing gay people to children and illegal immigrants? I have no words. How can someone be this dense?



No. There is a difference between being intolerant and not tolerating the people who are intolerant.
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Again I am not comparing anything to anything. I am not even talking about illegal immigrants, just immigrants. Fact is we restrict the rights of certain individuals based on age or national origin without having a 'problem' with them. The argument you want to make is that there is no basis for restricting the rights of homosexuals, but that isn't the argument you made.
 
Hypoallergenic Chie said:
I know plenty of christians who actively support gay rights, but still believe that it is a sin. Do we actually know if these people are voting against gay rights, or simply don't support them?
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Well surely if they're actively supporting gay rights like you say, it's implied that they would vote for gay rights?
 
The Technomancer said:
What the hell are you talking about? The business exists. They are engaged in the business of making custom cakes. They provide this service to other people.

When you open a business to perform service X you are saying "I will perform service X". That's kind of intrinsic
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You can open a business to "perform service X" with any number of requirements and limitations.

If I offer my services as a freelance programmer, I reserve the right to refuse any given project at any given time. That shit takes months or years to work on, I'm not dedicating that much time of my life to a project I hate.

What are you going to say to that? "Oh, but, but, you SAID you were a programmer, you have to program?" No I don't. It's my business. If I want to turn down easy money it's my prerogative.
 
The Technomancer said:
Other people don't have to get flour because they're not being refused service by a business who's stated function is providing custom cakes. That's my point. When you open a business to do a thing you're saying that you do that thing.



And my point is that if you have opened a turnip engraving business then yes, people who come to you offering you money to have turnips carved should get their turnips carved. Don't want to do it? Close the business. No-one is saying that you have to provide the service, just that if you do provide it you have to provide it to everyone.
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Even a custom business can have their limits of what they are comfortable with. Granted they are pretty weak if Bert and Ernie being gay is crossing the line. Still I can understand some not being okay with taking well known characters with no sexuality and wanting to use them for marriage.

Edit: given their statement though, I guess it's likely they would have refused any service to gay customers?
 
Just saying a bakery has a right to refuse to make any sort of cake it wants to, by comparing this to Nazi symbolism or swastikas is not looking at the situation objectively enough IMO.



Does this business make wedding cakes? Yes.

Does this business make custom designed wedding cakes? Yes.

Would they make a muppet wedding cakes with Miss Piggy and Kermit the Frog? I don't know but I'm going to guess they probably would have. The bakery specifically didn't like the gay marriage aspect of the cake. Not the marriage of two muppets, and not the use of copyright material.

markot said:
The firm's 24-year-old general manager, Daniel McArthur, said marriage in Northern Ireland "still is defined as being a union between one man and one woman" and said his company was taking "a stand".

"The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.

"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."

"I would like the outcome of this to be that, any Christians running a business could be allowed to follow their Christian beliefs and principles in the day-to-day running of their business and that they are allowed to make decisions based on that."
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The Bakery discriminated, and should not have.
 
The Technomancer said:
And my point is that if you have opened a turnip engraving business then yes, people who come to you offering you money to have turnips carved should get their turnips carved. Don't want to do it? Close the business. No-one is saying that you have to provide the service, just that if you do provide it you have to provide it to everyone.
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This comes back to the previous point which is that what if the service in question is something that is very costly in terms of time. What if someone wants me to make an application for a political group that I disagree with on any number of topics, and it will take me 10 years of my life to complete. Am I obligated to do it? Or are my only options to either do it or cease making applications for anyone forever?
 
Mastadon said:
Well surely if they're actively supporting gay rights like you say, it's implied that they would vote for gay rights?
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Those ones who do support it do vote for it, but others are neutral and at least don't vote against it. (And yes, some do vote against it)

I was basically asking if even being neutral in voting, but still obeying their religion is something that should be looked down upon.

The Technomancer said:
When you open a business to perform service X you are saying "I will perform service X". That's kind of intrinsic
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The Technomancer said:
I believe that the right to receive service is more important than the right to refuse service.
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Edit: redacted. There are way better examples down below of how this is wrong.

Kinsei said:
Yes, it's not even comparable.
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Uh, it's literally the exact same situation in reverse. I'm getting the impression you don't like christians.

TheLostBigBoss said:
tumblr_mjd69lJeaC1qkpda1o3_500.gif

Shitting on people for being Christian is, but I should have made it more clear. While I find the notion of thinking being gay is a sin and not deserving of the same rights of a straight person utterly ridiculous and completely out of touch with reality, just being a Christian doesn't mean you hold that view point.
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And I can respect that. Thank you for clarifying.
 
lorebringer said:
This comes back to the previous point which is that what if the service in question is something that is very costly in terms of time. What if someone wants me to make an application for a political group that I disagree with on any number of topics, and it will take me 10 years of my life to complete. Am I obligated to do it? Or are my only options to either do it or cease making applications for anyone forever?
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Its an interesting point that's completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, since cakes are not a significant time investment. I've become increasingly disillusioned with everyone insisting on a "one size fits all solution" in the last few years since points like this are exactly why one size doesn't fit all. If you want to draft it up as legislation maybe you word it so that there's a threshold for time investment or something (and laws are full of shit like this)
 
The Technomancer said:
And my point is that if you have opened a turnip engraving business then yes, people who come to you offering you money to have turnips carved should get their turnips carved. Don't want to do it? Close the business. No-one is saying that you have to provide the service, just that if you do provide it you have to provide it to everyone.
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Then I suppose I will just enjoy knowing that you are upset at the prospect of anyone being even slightly selective about the work they choose to devote themselves to. Good luck and godspeed, changing that aspect of the way the world works.

Sometimes I mow a friend's lawn for 20 bucks. I think I'll refuse to do it next time, secure in the knowledge that it infuriates you.
 
The Technomancer said:
And my point is that if you have opened a turnip engraving business then yes, people who come to you offering you money to have turnips carved should get their turnips carved. Don't want to do it? Close the business. No-one is saying that you have to provide the service, just that if you do provide it you have to provide it to everyone.
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uh no, this is not how business works. Just because I can provide a service to someone, doesnt mean i HAVE to provide a service for someone.
My brother is a plumber and he often gets requests for quotes for jobs. When he doesnt want to do the job, he purposefully drastically overbids the job so that he wont get it. What you're saying is he's wrong. And that he is not allowed to not take a job because you believe he is required to do any job that is offered to him. That's essentially what you just said in your paragraph there.
 
stonesak said:
Who gets to define tolerance? Germans have a vastly different view of free speech compared to the US re: Nazism. So are Germans intolerant, or are Americans extending unlimited tolerance?
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Regarding the issue at hand, so the thread doesn't get derailed, the intolerance falls on the side of those who do not support the idea of people having equal rights under the law (such as the ability to have their marriage officially recognised) on the basis of their sexuality, a fundamental part of their being.
 
UncleSporky said:
Then I suppose I will just enjoy knowing that you are upset at the prospect of anyone being even slightly selective about the work they choose to devote themselves to. Good luck and godspeed, changing that aspect of the way the world works.

Sometimes I mow a friend's lawn for 20 bucks. I think I'll refuse to do it next time, secure in the knowledge that it infuriates you.
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I demand you mow my lawn for $20. You mow lawns. You have to do it.
 
The Technomancer said:
And my point is that if you have opened a turnip engraving business then yes, people who come to you offering you money to have turnips carved should get their turnips carved. Don't want to do it? Close the business. No-one is saying that you have to provide the service, just that if you do provide it you have to provide it to everyone.
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So, let's say there's a woman whose a prostitute, she has to have sex with anyone who comes to her, offering her money? Or she has to find a new means of supporting herself? I mean, how far does your belief go here. If its literally the person's body that's for sale, would you still argue they have no rights to refuse service?
 
The Technomancer said:
Its an interesting point that's completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, since cakes are not a significant time investment. I've become increasingly disillusioned with everyone insisting on a "one size fits all solution" in the last few years since points like this are exactly why one size doesn't fit all. If you want to draft it up as legislation maybe you word it so that there's a threshold for time investment or something (and laws are full of shit like this)
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Maybe I'll call it the Slave Limit, any work under the Slave Limit you have to do, anything over and you get to choose.
 
Keri said:
So, let's say there's a woman whose a prostitute, she has to have sex with anyone who comes to her, offering her money? Or she has to find a new means of supporting herself? I mean, how far does your belief go here. If its literally the person's body that's for sale, would you still argue they have no rights to refuse service?
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Is she a business?
 
Northern Ireland's first openly gay mayor, Andrew Muir, has backed legal action against the bakery, saying businesses should not be able to pick and choose who they serve.
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What? That's like...exactly what business do.
 
The Technomancer said:
I can call it the Get Over Yourself limit. See how language works? I can use words too
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Except that doesn't work, because what you are advocating is forced labour, so slave is a perfectly accurate word to describe it. Why is it so hard to admit that the idea of forcing someone to work on something they don't want to work on is not exactly a great one?
 
Aureon said:
"No service for blacks"
Not that easy.
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Ehhhh, they didn't refuse service to the people. They just refused to make a cake that depicted Bert and Ernie as being gay. Would they have made a wedding cake that just said "congratulations on your wedding" with their names? Well, we don't know.

I wouldn't be offended if someone refused to make a cake with a dick on it, so I don't know. Tough one here.
 
Timeaisis said:
What? That's like...exactly what business do.
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In most places there are criteria you can't use when deciding who to serve and not serve. Such as, you can't choose not to serve people because of their race.

Seth C said:
Ehhhh, they didn't refuse service to the people.
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They did refuse service. They make custom cakes and refused to make the custom cake for the customers. That is a refusal of service. They did so because they disagreed with the message of the cake, which may or may not be their right under UK law, but it's clearly a refusal of service. Service here is a comprehensive term meaning all the functions of the business, part of which they were refused.
 
lorebringer said:
Except that doesn't work, because what you are advocating is forced labour, so slave is a perfectly accurate word to describe it. Why is it so hard to admit that the idea of forcing someone to work on something they don't want to work on is not exactly a great one?
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No-one is forcing them to work on it. They chose to make cakes.
 
lednerg said:
Why should we expect a bakery to respect something that's illegal where they are?
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This occurred to me as well, but there's an important distinction here that I actually want to look up. Namely, is gay marriage illegal or is it just not legally recognized?

That is to say, if a priest performs a wedding ceremony for a gay couple in N. Ireland, is it just that they won't received legal recognition and benefits? Or that they can actually be imprisoned? The distinction is an important one, since yeah, I could see a case for not encouraging criminal activity.
 
The Technomancer said:
No-one is forcing them to work on it. They chose to make cakes.
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So? They didn't choose to make that cake. I've mentioned it a few times, but when I was a self-employed animator, should I have been obligated to make short films for literally anyone that asked irrespective of my own personal support of their goals just because "I chose to make films"?
 
I'm of two minds about this. The bakery should not be allowed to refuse service out right because the couple is gay, but I don't think the bakery should be forced to do a custom design that they don't want to. If the bakery rejects the design, but is still willing to do different design or a sell the couple a plain cake that they themselves could add to, then I don't think I would have an issue with that.
 
Flo_Evans said:
What if I was a baker that only made chocolate cake. A customer wants a white cake. Can I refuse?
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Assuming you're in the U.S., then yes, you can refuse. You can refuse service to anyone who doesn't fall under a protected class in your state.

The laws in the UK seem to be considerably less clear.
 
The Technomancer said:
No-one is forcing them to work on it. They chose to make cakes.
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No, they chose to offer the service of making cakes if and only if they decide for any given cake that they want to make it. They can refuse to make any specific cake they don't want to make, nobody is entitled to force them to work on something they don't want to work on.
 
Keri said:
At least to the same extent as a sole turnip engraver is.

So your position is that individuals have the right to refuse services, but business do not? What does that mean in the context of a sole proprietor?
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A business is a legal tax entity. That's an important distinction for me. Its the difference between being paid $20 by a few people in the neighborhood for yard work and operating a yard work organization.
 
TheLostBigBoss said:
Not when it comes to a persons sex, religion, race or sexual preferences (The last one being debated as of now).

We have a word when people do that, it's called discrimination.
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besada said:
In most places there are criteria you can't use when deciding who to serve and not serve. Such as, you can't choose not to serve people because of their race.
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I understand that, but I think the debate is up in the air whether this is about that at all. I was under the impression it was the design of the cake they had an issue with, not the sexual orientation or personal beliefs of the customer. In that way, I don't see this as discrimination, because they aren't discriminating against the customer.

Similarly, if I, for example, asked for a cake depicting something grotesque or distasteful and the baker refused on the grounds that he or she was uncomfortable with the design, I don't see that as discrimination. They simply refuse to make a cake with that design.
 
I wonder at what point people can say no though... Obviously the couple are being bigots. But at what point legally can they deny service, such as to extremist or racist groups?

EDIT: Maybe they just cant deny based on sex, race, sexual orientation, etc...... they may be able to deny service based on the content of the cake not the people ordering it?
 
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