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[Bloodbeard]

Please offer evidence that the trinity was considered heresy until Nicea. Up until Nicea there are TONS of evidence from the Church Fathers that show they accepted the divinity of Jesus. From Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp to Irenaeus and Origen. The divinity of Jesus from the closing of the NT up until Nicea was accepted by most of the communities, even many who were part of the Antiochian church.

You are confusing the belief in the divinity of Jesus as being the same as belief in the trinity which is a mistake. You reference Origen, who never doubted the divinity of Jesus but considered him as created and explained his anointed status as being the result of never defecting from God's will; Origen's Jesus was the non-fallen mind, not equal to God. I think it might of been Origen who said Jesus was like the torch which ignited from the fire, who takes part of God and does not diminish the divinity of God, but exists separate from and to a lesser extent than God. This idea of subordination was still a widely held belief backed by the old testament, the gospels and even the letters of Paul and if you consider the very reason for the First Council of Nicea, to address the Arian controversy, it becomes clear that the concept of the trinity was far from established as orthodox. It could even be argued that the trinity still had some theological issues to work out even after Nicea.

 

[Ravidrath]

I'm sure many of you have seen the youtube video of a girl who is happy that God caused an earthquake to get more Japanese to turn to Christianity.

My question is: why do so many people who identify as Christians disagree with what she says? Is it just that the youtube girl doesn't reject parts of the Bible that they consider to be too horrible to not reject?

Man, I just saw this video and... wow.

Quite possibly the most twisted thing I have ever seen, and maybe the most effective ad for atheism yet.

 

[legend166]

I'm sure many of you have seen the youtube video of a girl who is happy that God caused an earthquake to get more Japanese to turn to Christianity.

My question is: why do so many people who identify as Christians disagree with what she says? Is it just that the youtube girl doesn't reject parts of the Bible that they consider to be too horrible to not reject?

The Bible says to rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.

Even if what someone says is true (I'm not referring to this video, I'm at work so I can't watch it. Sounds dodgy though), the aftermath of a disaster is not the time to proselytize.

 

[Laurentius]

I'm sure many of you have seen the youtube video of a girl who is happy that God caused an earthquake to get more Japanese to turn to Christianity.

My question is: why do so many people who identify as Christians disagree with what she says? Is it just that the youtube girl doesn't reject parts of the Bible that they consider to be too horrible to not reject?

My biggest issue with this kind of thing is the person assuming they know exactly what the will of God was in these kinds of things. She said: "God literally waking people up and saying, 'You are going to Hell'"? Really? I don't recall God saying that "anytime there is an earthquake, I am telling the inhabitants of the earth that they are going to Hell".

Why should we be acting joyful through the suffering and misery of many souls? I'm sure God doesn't feel joy over those things. God never told ME that the earthquake in Japan happened to "punish atheists". I haven't heard a prophet say that.

Disasters happen. It's part of this life. Shouldn't we be doing everything we can to love and help those people in these situations, rather than act joyful because we think it's because God is punishing those that we consider wicked? That's nowhere near our call.

Compare the teachings of Jesus Christ who showed love and compassion to sinners (which are all of us) and those with extreme physical and mental ailments to the disgusting revelries over the suffering of our fellow beings.

 

[legend166]

My biggest issue with this kind of thing is the person assuming they know exactly what the will of God was in these kinds of things. "God literally waking people up and saying, 'You are going to Hell'"? Really? I don't recall God saying that "anytime there is an earthquake, I am telling the inhabitants of the earth that they are going to Hell".

Why should we be acting joyful through the suffering and misery of many souls? I'm sure God doesn't feel joy over those things. God never told ME that the earthquake in Japan happened to "punish atheists". I haven't heard a prophet say that.

Disasters happen. It's part of this life. Shouldn't we be doing everything we can to love and help those people in these situations, rather than act joyful because we think it's because God is punishing those that we consider wicked? That's nowhere near our call.

Compare the teachings of Jesus Christ who showed love and compassion to sinners (which are all of us) and those with extreme physical and mental ailments to the disgusting revelries over the suffering of our fellow beings.

Exactly.

 

[KtSlime]

SenseiJinx: Isn't that the same thing anyone that chooses a religion is saying? That they have some sort of divine insight as to what is correct?

And if you are Christian, how do you reconcile this girls opinion, and Revelations which she is clearly calling upon?

 

[Dice]

My question is: why do so many people who identify as Christians disagree with what she says? Is it just that the youtube girl doesn't reject parts of the Bible that they consider to be too horrible to not reject?

Luke 13:1-5 shows that calamity has no direct link to faith or morality. The bottom line is we all eventually die and therefore we all need to repent.

Actions of God against nations was in relation to Israel, but Jesus was the manifestation and fulfillment of what Israel represented, so now all stand or fall on him at their time of death according to the gospel. 2 Peter 3 talks about God holding back from dealing out judgment and destruction in the context of the whole world. There is no reason to believe that any nation is greater or lesser than others. Even if there was room in scripture for this, it would be terribly foolish to think of the USA as some sort of holy nation.

This girl is forsaking the basics of mourning with those who mourn and caring for the wounded and destitute, and her detachment from reality is sickening. Jesus even wept for Lazarus whom he was about to raise from the dead moments later.

 

[Lindbergh]

This girl is forsaking the basics of mourning with those who mourn and caring for the wounded and destitute, and her detachment from reality is sickening. Jesus even wept for Lazarus whom he was about to raise from the dead moments later.

This.

Empathy and solidarity with the helpless and suffering. I believe those to be central to Jesus's mission.

 

[Laurentius]

SenseiJinx: Isn't that the same thing anyone that chooses a religion is saying? That they have some sort of divine insight as to what is correct?

And if you are Christian, how do you reconcile this girls opinion, and Revelations which she is clearly calling upon?

That's a good point. She's certainly entitled to an opinion regarding this, as is anyone.

Regarding scripture citing disasters like this. There's quite a few questions we have to ask.

1 - Is God's primary purpose with disasters to punish the wicked? Or, more specifically in this case, atheists? She isn't even pointing out those that are "evil" just those that are atheist. Certainly, as Christians, we shouldn't be identifying any that are atheist as evil? Shouldn't we refer back to Christ's command to "judge not"?

2 - If so, why are both the wicked and the righteous affected? What about the thousands of good people affected by the Japan quakes? What about the children, the babies? What about the devout Japanese Christians? According to her, this was all done in response to the presence of atheists.

The scriptures cite prophecy of things like this. They give reasons such as to call men to repentance (something we all need, btw). Don't we all need reminders to turn to God in our lives? Also, couldn't there be more to these issues then we know and understand?

We ALL need to repent. We all need to turn unto God. The scriptures do not tell us that these disasters are given in order to awaken atheists to the reality of God in no way.

EDIT: Dice sums it perfectly by citing Luke 13:1-5.

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilæans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilæans were sinners above all the Galilæans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[legend166]

Luke 13:1-5 shows that calamity has no direct link to faith or morality. The bottom line is we all eventually die and therefore we all need to repent.

Actions of God against nations was in relation to Israel, but Jesus was the manifestation and fulfillment of what Israel represented, so now all stand or fall on him at their time of death according to the gospel. 2 Peter 3 talks about God holding back from dealing out judgment and destruction in the context of the whole world. There is no reason to believe that any nation is greater or lesser than others. Even if there was room in scripture for this, it would be terribly foolish to think of the USA as some sort of holy nation.

This girl is forsaking the basics of mourning with those who mourn and caring for the wounded and destitute, and her detachment from reality is sickening. Jesus even wept for Lazarus whom he was about to raise from the dead moments later.

ugh, tell me about it. I get this in Australia, too.

 

[Bungalow Bob]

post

You seem to not be familiar with the Bible.

God: "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. Zephaniah 3:6-10

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm (it goes on to mention other types of natural disasters that God causes, including earthquakes). Nahum 1:2-8

 

[legend166]

You seem to not be familiar with the Bible.

God: "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. Zephaniah 3:6-10

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm (it goes on to mention other types of natural disasters that God causes, including earthquakes). Nahum 1:2-8

Those passages were at a time when God's people was literally a nation (Israel). This is not the case today.

 

[KtSlime]

That's a good point. She's certainly entitled to an opinion regarding this, as is anyone.

Regarding scripture citing disasters like this. There's quite a few questions we have to ask.

1 - Is God's primary purpose with disasters to punish the wicked? Or, more specifically in this case, atheists? She isn't even pointing out those that are "evil" just those that are atheist. Certainly, as Christians, we shouldn't be identifying any that are atheist as evil? Shouldn't we refer back to Christ's command to "judge not"?

2 - If so, why are both the wicked and the righteous affected? What about the thousands of good people affected by the Japan quakes? What about the children, the babies? What about the devout Japanese Christians? According to her, this was all done in response to the presence of atheists.

The scriptures cite prophecy of things like this. They give reasons such as to call men to repentance (something we all need, btw). Don't we all need reminders to turn to God in our lives? Also, couldn't there be more to these issues then we know and understand?

We ALL need to repent. We all need to turn unto God. The scriptures do not tell us that these disasters are given in order to awaken atheists to the reality of God in no way.

EDIT: Dice sums it perfectly by citing Luke 13:1-5.

Well, if he was trying to do the least damage to his followers, Japan would be a pretty good place to hit, seeing how most of them are atheists.

I guess my next question would be, and I'll try and not put you on the spot, so I won't ask you when the rapture will hit, but rather do you think there will be a rapture.

If you believe in a future rapture, why don't you think she could be right?

 

[Laurentius]

You seem to not be familiar with the Bible.

God: "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. Zephaniah 3:6-10

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm (it goes on to mention other types of natural disasters that God causes, including earthquakes). Nahum 1:2-8

I certainly don't profess to be a Biblical scholar. Here are my thoughts.

1 - Do these scriptures refer to all disasters in all times, and particularly to this one?

2 - Are they done in order to "punish nonbelievers" as this girl says, or to help awaken all those involved to the need of God in their lives? Even those who profess to already believe?

3 - Do they leave open the possibility of God having more motivations that we don't understand?

4 - What are the contextual implications of these passages? How do they apply to the current situation(s)?

5 - These scriptures were spoken by prophets in the name of God. Have these prophets spoken in a way that implies that these modern day disasters must have happened because of the same reasons the girl in this video believes?

Thanks for your comments, it does help to be able to make me think deeper about what I actually believe.

 

[kevm3]

I'm sure many of you have seen the youtube video of a girl who is happy that God caused an earthquake to get more Japanese to turn to Christianity.

My question is: why do so many people who identify as Christians disagree with what she says? Is it just that the youtube girl doesn't reject parts of the Bible that they consider to be too horrible to not reject?

She's an atheist posing as a Christian to rile people up. She posts at Landover Baptist.

 

[Bungalow Bob]

Those passages were at a time when God's people was literally a nation (Israel). This is not the case today.

Show me with scripture why those verses no longer apply. It's still the case that the majority of humanity is not Christian; and certainly the vast majority of Japanese are not Christian.

It seems to me that given that the youtube girl is a Christian, she is right to feel the way she does.

 

[KtSlime]

She's an atheist posing as a Christian to rile people up. She posts at Landover Baptist.

Does that matter? There are people that really think what she thinks. Netflix: Waiting for Armageddon. These people think the world is going to end in the next 50 or so years. Do you not think that is the case?

 

[kevm3]

Does that matter? There are people that really think what she thinks. Netflix: Waiting for Armageddon. These people think the world is going to end in the next 50 or so years. Do you not think that is the case?

Yes it matters. So Christians now have to be liable for people who 'spoof' them?

There is a vast difference between people who believe the world will end and between someone who actively cheers on calamity for others.

Proverbs 17:5
"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker;

whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished. "

 

[Laurentius]

Well, if he was trying to do the least damage to his followers, Japan would be a pretty good place to hit, seeing how most of them are atheists.

I guess my next question would be, and I'll try and not put you on the spot, so I won't ask you when the rapture will hit, but rather do you think there will be a rapture.

If you believe in a future rapture, why don't you think she could be right?

There's several interpretations of the the rapture. Could you specify exactly what you mean when you refer to it?

God speaks about destroying the wicked. But according to scripture, we are all sinners, all fallen, and in that sense, all wicked. So who am I to judge because others died in a disaster and I didn't, that I'm more righteous than they are? Refer back to Luke 13:1-5.

I'm not sure exactly the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that according to scripture all Christian's must agree with this girl's point of view?

I think it's all part of this life. Stuff like this happens. It's up to each one of us individually to choose to turn unto God or not. Hey, maybe through suffering I'll choose to turn to God. Maybe not. That's my choice. As to God's complete motivation for things like this? I couldn't say.

Show me with scripture why those verses no longer apply. It's still the case that the majority of humanity is not Christian; and certainly the vast majority of Japanese are not Christian.

It seems to me that given that the youtube girl is a Christian, she is right to feel the way she does.

I understand what you're saying. But I don't believe that these scriptures show that a Christian should feel joy and revelry over the sufferings of others. Whether they are "wicked" or "righteous" according to a particular person's judgments.

God does things for his own reasons. We don't understand them all. But we were told to love one another -- and to love our enemies specifically.

 

[Buckethead]

Does that matter? There are people that really think what she thinks. Netflix: Waiting for Armageddon. These people think the world is going to end in the next 50 or so years. Do you not think that is the case?

So?

There's extremism, ignorance, and unintelligent people in every segment of society and spirituality is no different.

It's foolish to base anything off of such people, almost as foolish as assuming that all black people are criminals and all gay people want to recruit you to be gay. Seems to me that you're using a poor example to justify a negative stereotype that you have.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

It seems to me that given that the youtube girl is a Christian, she is right to feel the way she does.

You've been replied to already as such, to where you should see that someone acting as if this catastrophe is god's work is ludicrous.

That video certainly doesn't belong in this topic. Do you see the thread title, by chance?

And saying it doesn't matter that the girl might not even be christian, only that there are people out there who think like that? Really now? At least make a thread derail worth it and interesting. Hateful people are hateful people, whether they believe in a deity/afterlife/whatever or not.

So?

There's extremism, ignorance, and unintelligent people in every segment of society and spirituality is no different.

It's foolish to base anything off of such people, almost as foolish as assuming that all black people are criminals and all gay people want to recruit you to be gay. Seems to me that you're using a poor example to justify a negative stereotype that you have.

He or she is. And it's shockingly distasteful to bring the nonsense here when you look at how the thread was/is going.

 

[kevm3]

There are also many Christians who do not believe in a rapture, since the word is never mentioned in the Bible and Jesus never mentioned such a concept, but rather it was Paul. Jesus says he who endures to the end, so maybe that is indication that the Christians will be here during the apocalypse times as well as nonbelievers.

 

[KtSlime]

There's several interpretations of the the rapture. Could you specify exactly what you mean when you refer to it?

God speaks about destroying the wicked. But according to scripture, we are all sinners, all fallen, and in that sense, all wicked. So who am I to judge because others died in a disaster and I didn't, that I'm more righteous than they are? Refer back to Luke 13:1-5.

I'm not sure exactly the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that according to scripture all Christian's must agree with this girl's point of view?

I think it's all part of this life. Stuff like this happens. It's up to each one of us individually to choose to turn unto God or not. Hey, maybe through suffering I'll choose to turn to God. Maybe not. That's my choice. As to God's complete motivation for things like this? I couldn't say.



I understand what you're saying. But I don't believe that these scriptures show that a Christian should feel joy and revelry over the sufferings of others. Whether they are "wicked" or "righteous" according to a particular person's judgments.

By rapture I mean exactly that, second coming of Jesus, war in Israel, God separating the good the evil, the believers from the non-believers, the end of time.

Do you believe there will be such a point in time?

 

[Shanadeus]

Why?

See that there's a discussion on it already but:

Angels have no free will, which implies that they are creatures whose choices are made for them (otherwise, they'd be no different from humans and the term "free will" would lose it's meaning as it extends to Angels who also have free will).

Thus God created the angel that would become Satan in a way that would end up with that angel becoming Satan.

No need to involve omniscience really when I think of it.

The omniscience argument, which I use when it comes to souls, goes that he knew before creating that angel that it would revolt against him yet he went on and created him that way anyway despite knowing beforehand that it would result in a satan.

If some person is about to drop a huge weight from a high building, knowing that it will hit someone down on the street, then is that person not to be blamed for the damage that weight causes when it hits someone?

 

[Laurentius]

By rapture I mean exactly that, second coming of Jesus, war in Israel, God separating the good the evil, the believers from the non-believers, the end of time.

Do you believe there will be such a point in time?

Yes, I believe in those things. Maybe not exactly in the way you interpret them, but yes I particularly believe in the second coming of Christ. Do I believe that before Armageddon followers of Christ will be taken from the earth? No. But that's my opinion.

Do you mind me asking what exactly you're getting at here?

EDIT: Also, Bungalow Bob, I would be willing to hear your responses to the questions I posted above in response to your post.

 

[Bungalow Bob]

I certainly don't profess to be a Biblical scholar. Here are my thoughts.

1 - Do these scriptures refer to all disasters in all times, and particularly to this one?

2 - Are they done in order to "punish nonbelievers" as this girl says, or to help awaken all those involved to the need of God in their lives? Even those who profess to already believe?

3 - Do they leave open the possibility of God having more motivations that we don't understand?

4 - What are the contextual implications of these passages? How do they apply to the current situation(s)?

5 - These scriptures were spoken by prophets in the name of God. Have these prophets spoken in a way that implies that these modern day disasters must have happened because of the same reasons the girl in this video believes?

Thanks for your comments, it does help to be able to make me think deeper about what I actually believe.

You're welcome, Sensei. I'm not a biblical scholar either, so hopefully others will correct me if I make any mistakes.

1) All natural disasters are caused by God, including of course the recent Japanese earthquake.

2) God kills and tortures with natural disasters to punish both non-believers and believers who do not revere him enough. He is a jealous God, so focusing on work, school, friends and family, video games, etc. (rather than worshiping him) may cause him to lose his temper and punish you.

3) Yes. Additionally, God is slow to anger, but he can snap like Ken Shamrock. When he killed a bunch of children for making fun of a bald guy, their teasing was probably just the straw that broke the camel's back.

4) I think one important thing about the Bible's God is that he is prone to losing his temper. Sometimes afterwards he regrets the punishment he administered while he was seeing red and realizes he made a mistake; but then other things upset him again and the cycle repeats. He also has a weird sense of humor.

 

[KtSlime]

Yes, I believe in those things. Maybe not exactly in the way you interpret them, but yes I particularly believe in the second coming of Christ. Do I believe that before Armageddon followers of Christ will be taken from the earth? No. But that's my opinion.

Do you mind me asking what exactly you're getting at here?

If you believe in those things, how can I trust you (and others with that belief) to do what is best for humanity. People that believe in a rapture are no different than this girl (if not a troll) or the people in that movie, you guys are just late bloomers. Once you guys get enough signs to convince you the end is near you will be doing the same - maybe not as grotesquely as she is, hopefully with less hate.

I don't understand how you guys can claim to live in a secular world - and if you claim such things, why aren't you protesting for the same things atheists are?

Buckethead: If you believe in a future rapture, to me you are in the same category as this girl, or her character.

There are Christians actively waiting for the rapture, and ones that are actively trying to assist in it - funding Israel, not caring about the environment cause the end is soon anyway, picking fights in the middle east, etc. What if you guys bring about 'Armageddon', screw over humanity and were WRONG, and there is no God, and no rapture.

People that believe in the rapture are enemies of the future, and of humanity.

 

[Buckethead]

Bucket head: If you believe in a future rapture, to me you are in the same category as this girl, or her character.

It was pretty obvious from the beginning that you came in here to troll and belittle peoples opinions rather than attempting to learn about anything or understand a different point of view, so congratulations, you've confirmed to me that you are as close-minded as the picketers at Westboro Baptist.

And you've had your perspective entirely warped by either that documentary which I havent seen or negative stereotypes in some way.

If someone believes in Jesus coming back and also what the bible says than it should push for social change now. Not passing the buck and letting improper behavior slide.
Confronting injustice now and reversing generations of poor behavior. Christianity isn't, or shouldn't be some lifeless ideology, it should be ones lifestyle and conduct as they follow the example laid down by Jesus.

No one here is saying that they're watching the doomsday clock hoping that it ticks down so they can get to heaven.
That's something superstitious old ladies do who generally know nothing about the bible beyond a vague promise of eternity.

No one is condoning the Zionism of Israel either.

What you're saying generally shows a lack of understanding of Christianity and the Bible on the whole.

 

[Bungalow Bob]

I understand what you're saying. But I don't believe that these scriptures show that a Christian should feel joy and revelry over the sufferings of others. Whether they are "wicked" or "righteous" according to a particular person's judgments.

God does things for his own reasons. We don't understand them all. But we were told to love one another -- and to love our enemies specifically.

The youtube girl doesn't seem to feel joy over the immense pain, suffering and loss of life in Japan, but rather over the increased number of Christians that will result from this act of God. She figures that if God chose to do this the pros probably outweigh the cons.

As for loving your enemies, it depends on the situation. Obviously in some situations God wants his followers to kill their (male) enemies, rape their women and take the ones they want for wives.

 

[KtSlime]

It was pretty obvious from the beginning that you came in here to troll and belittle peoples opinions rather than attempting to learn about anything or understand a different point of view, so congratulations, you've confirmed to me that you are as close-minded as the picketers at Westboro Baptist.

And you've had your perspective entirely warped by either that documentary which I havent seen or negative stereotypes in some way.

If someone believes in Jesus coming back and also what the bible says than it should push for social change now. Not passing the buck and letting improper behavior slide.
Confronting injustice now and reversing generations of poor behavior. Christianity isn't, or shouldn't be some lifeless ideology, it should be ones lifestyle and conduct as they follow the example laid down by Jesus.

No one here is saying that they're watching the doomsday clock hoping that it ticks down so they can get to heaven.
That's something superstitious old ladies do who generally know nothing about the bible beyond a vague promise of eternity.

No one is condoning the Zionism of Israel either.

What you're saying generally shows a lack of understanding of Christianity and the Bible on the whole.

I know my fair share of Christians, my grandparents are Christian, one side Lutheran the other Church of Christ - I have read the bible, been probably about 10 years so I can't remember everything it says - and I read it linearly, I hear you are only supposed to cherry pick passages and have an authority interpret them for you though. - Oh, and I did attend Sunday school and VBS when I was little, and up until probably about 12 went to church when I was being looked after - even had to have terrible wafer sacrament, ick.

The fact is people DO believe in the rapture, and some of them are actively trying to make it happen - now you may just passively letting it all go down, but simply saying you believe in the doctrine of the Bible, you give validity to those people that you say have a twisted interpretation of it.

I think the Bible is a fine book, but in the same way the Iliad is a fine book - if people were actively proselytize in the name of Zeus I'd be on them too.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have an open mind about if God exists or not, I'm saying that the God in the Bible can not be proven, and it takes circular logic to have faith in him - circular logic that is harmful for the future of humanity.

If you want to believe that an all benevolent being caused the big bang, great. If you think the Bible is God's word, A) why aren't you following it the same as these extremists, which are reading the exact same thing you are B) how do you know what passages to disregard C) how can I trust you not to push for God's law, i.e.: DOMA, anti-abortion, etc.

If you reject parts of the Bible, why not reject it all - and use the doctrine espoused by Jesus in the same way one would with Buddha, Socrates, or Aesop?

 

[Aika'svyse]

I like the charts

 

[Herpes Reasons]

There are also many Christians who do not believe in a rapture, since the word is never mentioned in the Bible and Jesus never mentioned such a concept, but rather it was Paul. Jesus says he who endures to the end, so maybe that is indication that the Christians will be here during the apocalypse times as well as nonbelievers.

of course the word rapture isn't in the bible, but it doesn't mean to reject the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 event all together. the word in contention is the word greek word "harpazō" which transliterates into closest english verb, "to seize" or "to take by force".
the same greek word is also used in the same context as matt 11, jhn 6 and couple passages in acts.
dont you love these supposed christians that you mention to disgard some passages but to accept others? i've met tons and tons of christian that believe in the rapture event. and i haven't found any that reject it. by christians i mean born again christians, and not catholic.

 

[kevm3]

If you believe in those things, how can I trust you (and others with that belief) to do what is best for humanity. People that believe in a rapture are no different than this girl (if not a troll) or the people in that movie, you guys are just late bloomers. Once you guys get enough signs to convince you the end is near you will be doing the same - maybe not as grotesquely as she is, hopefully with less hate.

I don't understand how you guys can claim to live in a secular world - and if you claim such things, why aren't you protesting for the same things atheists are?

Buckethead: If you believe in a future rapture, to me you are in the same category as this girl, or her character.

There are Christians actively waiting for the rapture, and ones that are actively trying to assist in it - funding Israel, not caring about the environment cause the end is soon anyway, picking fights in the middle east, etc. What if you guys bring about 'Armageddon', screw over humanity and were WRONG, and there is no God, and no rapture.

People that believe in the rapture are enemies of the future, and of humanity.

There are plenty of secularists who could care less about the environment or others because they feel like hey, I have one lifetime to live, so I might as well do what I want. Are they also 'enemies of humanity'? You can't generalize vast groups of people.

What Christians are seriously 'picking fights' in the middle east like that? Most of these wars in the Middle East are due to oil.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I know my fair share of Christians, my grandparents are Christian, one side Lutheran the other Church of Christ - I have read the bible, been probably about 10 years so I can't remember everything it says - and I read it linearly, I hear you are only supposed to cherry pick passages and have an authority interpret them for you though. - Oh, and I did attend Sunday school and VBS when I was little, and up until probably about 12 went to church when I was being looked after - even had to have terrible wafer sacrament, ick.

The fact is people DO believe in the rapture, and some of them are actively trying to make it happen - now you may just passively letting it all go down, but simply saying you believe in the doctrine of the Bible, you give validity to those people that you say have a twisted interpretation of it.

I think the Bible is a fine book, but in the same way the Iliad is a fine book - if people were actively proselytize in the name of Zeus I'd be on them too.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have an open mind about if God exists or not, I'm saying that the God in the Bible can not be proven, and it takes circular logic to have faith in him - circular logic that is harmful for the future of humanity.

If you want to believe that an all benevolent being caused the big bang, great. If you think the Bible is God's word, A) why aren't you following it the same as these extremists, which are reading the exact same thing you are B) how do you know what passages to disregard C) how can I trust you not to push for God's law, i.e.: DOMA, anti-abortion, etc.

If you reject parts of the Bible, why not reject it all - and use the doctrine espoused by Jesus in the same way one would with Buddha, Socrates, or Aesop?

do tell what an extremist christian is supposed to be extreme about according to the new covenant?

There are plenty of secularists who could care less about the environment or others because they feel like hey, I have one lifetime to live, so I might as well do what I want. Are they also 'enemies of humanity'? You can't generalize vast groups of people.

What Christians are seriously 'picking fights' in the middle east like that? Most of these wars in the Middle East are due to oil.

yup. and land as well. but men seeking power and land use the veil of religion and God as an excuse to justify their wars.

 

[KtSlime]

There are plenty of secularists who could care less about the environment or others because they feel like hey, I have one lifetime to live, so I might as well do what I want. Are they also 'enemies of humanity'? You can't generalize vast groups of people.

What Christians are seriously 'picking fights' in the middle east like that? Most of these wars in the Middle East are due to oil.

Yes, they too are the enemy of humanity - but for instead of ignorance, complacency.

Most of the people that are oil tycoons and in politics are I believe Christian. There are virtually NO atheists in politics, and the ones that are are all at lower positions. Now there may be agnostics in politics, but even they claim to be Christian to be elected.

Where is the atheist voice in US politics? I don't believe you can be both a Christian and a secularist.

do tell what an extremist christian is supposed to be extreme about according to the new covenant?

I consider any Christian that protests abortions, votes for DOMA, believe that the World will end by the hand of God, or anything other than "Jesus says be nice to others, and I agree" to be extremists.

 

[Buckethead]

I hear you are only supposed to cherry pick passages and have an authority interpret them for you though.

That's a problem with many modern Christians, I share your perspective. The Bible is a complete package meant to be taken or left. A matter of "all or nothing".

The fact is people DO believe in the rapture, and some of them are actively trying to make it happen

Once again, what's your point? The Bible doesn't condone "trying to make it happen".
Certainly there is a lot of killing in the Old Testament but murder is clearly unacceptable.

I think the Bible is a fine book, but in the same way the Iliad is a fine book

Oedipus sleeps with his mother, yet I don't see people saying that book should be banned or labeled. If it's a book then a sensible adult should disregard bad examples/pieces they have problems with. Prejudiced people are going to be prejudice and use whatever they can find to base their prejudice.

A) why aren't you following it the same as these extremists, which are reading the exact same thing you are

Yes, reading the same book but one party is interpreting it incorrectly.

push for God's law, i.e.: DOMA, anti-abortion

Pre-marital sex God would not approve, so abortion shouldn't even be an issue. DOMA is a political movement started by bigoted conservatives who cherry-pick bible verses. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's". Politics and the Bible/Christianity shouldn't mix but that opens up a whole 'nother thing of the Reagan administration opening that can of worms to exploit ignorance and get into office.

 

[Laurentius]

You're welcome, Sensei. I'm not a biblical scholar either, so hopefully others will correct me if I make any mistakes.

1) All natural disasters are caused by God, including of course the recent Japanese earthquake.

2) God kills and tortures with natural disasters to punish both non-believers and believers who do not revere him enough. He is a jealous God, so focusing on work, school, video games, etc. (rather than worshiping him) may cause him to lose his temper and punish you.

3) Yes. Additionally, God is slow to anger, but he can snap like Ken Shamrock. When he killed a bunch of children for making fun of a bald guy, their teasing was probably just the straw that broke the camel's back.

4) I think one important thing about the Bible's God is that he is prone to losing his temper. Sometimes afterwards he regrets the punishment he administered while he was seeing red and realizes he made a mistake; but then other things upset him again and the cycle repeats. He also has a weird sense of humor.

1 - It could indeed be said that all natural disasters are caused by God. I'm not denying that. What I'm asking is if those scriptures imply that all disasters are caused because of those particular reasons you cited in those scriptures.

2 - I suggest reading C.S. Lewises "The Problem of Pain". He deals with the issue of human suffering, and God's part in it much better than I am able to. As to referring to God as a jealous God, we have to be careful when we use that terminology. He's certainly not jealous in the sense that you or I get jealous, and I'm sure that's not what's meant to be implied in the text of the scriptures. Ultimately, I believe he wants us to focus on him for our own happiness. Do I do that? No. Like I said, I'm a sinner, and I make a lot of mistakes. I have nowhere near the relationship or the understanding and love for God that I should.

3 - To clarify, it was the prophet Elisha that called the bears that killed those children. An odd passage, to be certain. Do I believe it? Not really. Do I need to believe everything stated in the Old Testament? I don't think so. Obviously, that can run into the problem of a person just picking and choosing what they do and don't want to agree with and throwing out the rest. I'm not suggesting to do that. But I don't think that verses in the Old Testament like that imply that Christians must believe in a spiteful God who loses his temper over small things and lashes out like a child. We have to take into consideration the context, the audience, the actual possible historicity, the potential for translation or transcription mistakes, allegorical stories, and plain untruths that have been planted in there somehow. I don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible. I believe it contains the word of God, but is imperfect due to the weaknesses of the humans entrusted with its care. In essence, do I need to abandon a lifetime of experiences, feelings, and beliefs because of passages in the Old Testament that are hard to come to terms with?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to disregard difficult passages outright. Or to just cherry pick those I like or agree with. But the issue is more complex then "here's a seemingly contradictory scripture". A faith challenging scripture or question deserves deep thought, study, and (for me) prayer, but it doesn't outright deny the truthfulness of what I already believe.

4 - In what way does God "recognize his mistakes" in the Bible? If you're referring to the scriptures that say God "repented" that's a misunderstanding of the scripture. The scriptures repeatedly refer to God as perfect and unchanging.

The youtube girl doesn't seem to feel joy over the immense pain, suffering and loss of life in Japan, but rather over the increased number of Christians that will result from this act of God. She figures that if God chose to do this the pros probably outweigh the cons.

I think the joy should be placed on those that experience a disaster in their life and choose to use their experiences to help them become better people. The disaster itself should cause mourning for those that have suffered. The joy can come from those that choose to turn their life to God.


ivedone:

Taking the examples of certain extremist Christians and using it to encapsulate all of Christianity as being "enemies of humanity" seems rather extreme in and of itself. I would be curious if you would regard Islam as an enemy of humanity as well, because of the examples of the extremists therein also. But your definition of extremism seems pretty broad. I know I'm not going to be able to change your mind. I do respect your comments and your beliefs, but I don't agree with them.




In all honesty, I know I must have plenty of holes in my comments that many people are willing and ready to point out and attack. I'm probably not going to change anybodies minds. I'm not that smart, and I'm definitely not very good at debates like this. But what I feel and believe goes so much beyond these things. A logical understanding is important, but not enough. I've had experiences and feeling and emotions and thoughts that have led me to where I am now, to what I believe now. It's nearly impossible to explain fully.

I don't know much. But despite all my still remaining questions, I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of the world.

 

[PushTheButtonMax]

Episcopalian checking in late.

"All of the pageantry, none of the guilt!" - Robin Williams

Edit: Never mind, just skimmed through the thread, I'm out.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I consider any Christian that protests abortions, votes for DOMA, believe that the World will end by the hand of God, or anything other than "Jesus says be nice to others, and I agree" to be extremists.

any combination of those?
congratulations, you've just lumped everyone in christendom as an extremist.
i dont blame you though, Christ did say to follow him is to go against the world.

 

[KtSlime]

SensieJinx: Yeah, I have a pretty broad notion of extreme, basically the rule of thumb with me is if your policy of law is at all influenced by the fact you believe whatever text you frame your morals from divine, or the word of God - you are being extreme.

I'm extreme, but only because I believe organized religions, and blind faith are ruining the World. Yes, all religions do some amount of good, but I find it evil to kill anyone in the name of a God - cause God/gods may or may not exist, but we will never be able to prove it, so in all possibility that person was killed for no good reason, or a lie.

I think Islam is worse, however I do not confront it enough, I have not had time to visit an imam or read the Quran, so my knowledge of their beliefs is a bit shakier.

I want this world to be a better place, I don't think Young World believers, or evolution denialists, or people that wish to bring about the Rapture are improving the World. I down right believe they are harming it, they infringe on mine and others rights as humans, they slow the progress of scientific understanding, and are generally unpleasant.

Buckethead: Oedipus was Sophocles, not Homer - and I did not advocate banning the Bible - I advocate telling people the Bible is a work of fiction, just like everyone already knows about the Iliad, and Oedipus Rex.

It also doesn't matter if the Bible condones trying to bring about the Rapture, some people believe it does, and I don't see other Christians teaming up with the atheists and agnostics to let these fringe Christians know they are bat shit insane.

Anyway, I suppose there is no reasoning with me, and no reasoning with Christ-GAF. I have my reasons for thinking Christianity and other religions are slowly destroying the World, rights, and society. I just don't understand how, if you believe the same things I do, except for also that Christ is the son of God, how you can not be vocal about these other Christians that are obviously in my mind, and others, smearing your beliefs.

I believe in the words of Jesus, his call for peace and love is wonderful, I cannot believe he is divine.

Now my question to Christ-GAF is, will you stand with the non-believers and do what is right and secular? Or will you congregate with the hateful, bigot Christians that are profoundly affecting the welfare of the World but share the sole belief that Jesus is the son of God, and in believing in his divinity redemption will be granted to you.

viakado: So which of those crossed the line? I hope you understand why I can't believe in the random musings of unknown authors that has been manipulated over the past several thousand years.

Have you heard of phrase "namu amida butsu", it's what Pureland Buddhists say before death, I'll tell you/this thread about it if you or anyone else is interested.

 

[JCRedeems]

I used to be somewhat skeptical of events in Old Testament such as Noah's flood, Exodus out of Egypt and Sodom & Gomorah until I actually did some research and found a wealth of credible evidence it was real. If one thing in the Bible is not true why should I believe any of it? God doesn't lie. Even one of the least likely thing took place because it was prophesied in the Bible which was the rebirth of Israel in the 1940s after it was a barren wasteland for 1900 years. It was also prophesied the nations will rise against Israel. We already see that coming together when surrounding Muslim nations want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. If Israel wasn't reestablished than many other prophecies could never be fufilled.

Stuff like this makes me in of awe of God and builds faith.

 

[Buckethead]

I used to be somewhat skeptical of events in Old Testament such as Noah's flood, Exodus out of Egypt and Sodom & Gomorah until I actually did some research and found a wealth of credible evidence it was real.

I'd love to see your evidence for Noah's flood. I mean that in an interested way.

 

[JCRedeems]

Whoa look at this hypocrite. Making grand sweeping claims Christians are bigots yet this poster is the one repeatedly making troll-like anti-Christian bigotry posts.

I rather stick with my belief that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and died for my sins and was raised from the dead. And that he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Amen. But thanks for offer.

 

[KtSlime]

I used to be somewhat skeptical of events in Old Testament such as Noah's flood, Exodus out of Egypt and Sodom & Gomorah until I actually did some research and found a wealth of credible evidence it was real. If one thing in the Bible is not true why should I believe any of it? God doesn't lie. Even one of the least likely thing took place because it was prophesied in the Bible which was the rebirth of Israel in the 1940s after it was a barren wasteland for 1900 years. It was also prophesied the nations will rise against Israel. We already see that coming together when surrounding Muslim nations want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. If Israel wasn't reestablished than many other prophecies could never be fufilled.

Stuff like this makes me in of awe of God and builds faith.

Buckethead, viakado, SenseiJinx: It's crazy stuff like this ^, with logic that is the exact opposite of the scientific method that ruins the credulity of your beliefs for me.

I take it no one is interested in my offer, and no one is willing to stand up for what is right and distance yourselves from the hateful Christians.

JCRedeems: If you are so open minded, why haven't you asked about that Buddhist phrase? There is no god in Buddhism, so certainly it could do no harm, right?

Oh, and I too would like to see this evidence you are talking about, it's archaeological right? Well you are just in luck, I have a masters in archaeology and bachelors in anthropology - so this is kind of my specialty. Send me the link to JSTOR or to the publication, if you aren't afraid of me trying to take it apart - you never know, if it is legitimate evidence, you may even change some of my preconceptions.

 

[Bungalow Bob]

Buckethead, viakado, SenseiJinx: It's crazy stuff like this ^, with logic that is the exact opposite of the scientific method that ruins the credulity of your beliefs for me.

I take it no one is interested in my offer, and no one is willing to stand up for what is right and distance yourselves from the hateful Christians.

JCRedeems: If you are so open minded, why haven't you asked about that Buddhist phrase? There is no god in Buddhism, so certainly it could do no harm, right?

Oh, and I too would like to see this evidence you are talking about, it's archaeological right? Well you are just in luck, I have a masters in archaeology and bachelors in anthropology - so this is kind of my specialty. Send me the link to JSTOR or to the publication, if you aren't afraid of me trying to take it apart - you never know, if it is legitimate evidence, you may even change some of my preconceptions.

What's the Buddhist phrase?

 

[KtSlime]

What's the Buddhist phrase?

Namu Amida Butsu - it envokes the Buddha(enlightened one) named Amida, he did a very particular thing:

People 'reincarnate' over and over, trying to be better, more enlightened individuals over time, once they reach buddhahood and die in that state, they go to Nirvana, a state where reincarnation no longer occurs. Amida didn't think it fair that he would be able to enter Nirvana while there are other people in the world suffering. He refused to end his cycle and to this date continues to reincarnate even though he reached enlightenment. He promised humanity that he would not go until everyone else, that is all sentient beings in the Universe, be they man, alien, ghost, demon, or god had entered Nirvana.

By saying Namu Amida Butsu regardless if you believe, he guarantees that you will attain Nirvana, even if it takes a thousand lifetimes, he will assist you in ending the cycle of suffering.

It's a wonderful story.

I and many others interpret it to mean, by doing this one small act, we can keep the teachings and wisdom of the Buddha with society, and over time we can slowly get closer to mankind's enlightenment, and our understanding that compassion, working together, and right action will bring Nirvana to reality, and nothing needs to suffer ever again.

 

[SmokyDave]

I rather stick with my belief that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and died for my sins and was raised from the dead. And that he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Amen. But thanks for offer.

This reads like the text equivalent of a comfort blanket.

 

[KtSlime]

This reads like the text equivalent of a comfort blanket.

Yeah, it seems like his go to phrase; whenever someone challenges his circular logic and beliefs, he likely hides behind these words - much like an child when they put their fingers in their ears and start chanting. Dawkins says this is like a viruses self defense mechanism, doesn't he?

It's quite sad really, I'd really like to help him but I haven't figured out how to get people out of that trap, and my hand holding is pretty terrible it seems.

My goal is to have people use logic, reason and compassion to evaluate existence, but they all act like I am trying to turn them evil or something. :lol

edit: oh, and a bit of skepticism.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

In regards to those giving analysis or comments to scripture: have you had any training or tutorship when younger doing so, or is it a mixture of reading it on your own along with commentary by those more learned and then coming to a conclusion? Because there seems to be a lot of emphasis on "I think", or some indicative of personal interpretation

 

[KtSlime]

In regards to those giving analysis or comments to scripture: have you had any training or tutorship when younger doing so, or is it a mixture of reading it on your own along with commentary by those more learned and then coming to a conclusion? Because there seems to be a lot of emphasis on "I think" here, I feel.

Well aside from the standard tutorship I learned at the Church of Christ when I was younger, I've read the King James and the Oxford Annotated - I have not had any form of seminary training.

I think my use of 'I think' stems from spending too much time in Japan/speaking to Japanese. They hardly ever say things will 100% affirmation. They always give degrees of certainty in their speech, and I believe I have adapted that into my English speaking habits.

Edit: Oh, and I am an archaeologist/anthropologist that studied classics, Greco-Roman and near east history at university, so maybe that assists my interpretation - I think it does.