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[mrbagdt]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be any real discussion in here. Would have loved that kind of thing. (And i don't mean arguing about doctrine but just on stuff like revelation and and such. )

you can start

 

[Evlar]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be any real discussion in here. Would have loved that kind of thing. (And i don't mean arguing about doctrine but just on stuff like revelation and and such. )

The lack of discussion isn't a surprise, given the kinds of posts that dominate the last 20 pages.

 

[JGS]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be any real discussion in here. Would have loved that kind of thing. (And i don't mean arguing about doctrine but just on stuff like revelation and and such. )

It really is what's on your mind kind of thread. So when a question pops up or a discussion, we start discussing.

There really is a myriad of views.

 

[ganbareneopokekun]

would you leave your partner if he doesnt believe in god?

 

[Chaplain]

The dynamic duo of Truth and Love.

2 John 1-6
This letter is from John, the elder. I am writing to the chosen lady and to her children, whom I love in the truth—as does everyone else who knows the truth— because the truth lives in us and will be with us forever. Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father and from Jesus Christ—the Son of the Father—will continue to be with us who live in truth and love. How happy I was to meet some of your children and find them living according to the truth, just as the Father commanded. I am writing to remind you, dear friends, that we should love one another. This is not a new commandment, but one we have had from the beginning. Love means doing what God has commanded us, and he has commanded us to love one another, just as you heard from the beginning.

After commending her for walking in truth, John reminds the elect lady of the command to love. Truth and love are an unbeatable team, a winning combination, a dynamic duo. Truth without love makes a person harsh. But love without truth makes a person dangerous because he will allow cancers to grow and problems to take root in his life, in his family, on the job, or in the church.

“I commend you for walking in truth,” said John, “and I command you not to forget love.” And then he issues a word of caution.…

Who is walking with the enemy?

2 John 7, 8
I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked so hard to achieve. Be diligent so that you receive your full reward.

The Greek word translated “came” being a present participle, newer translations are correct in rendering verse 7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess that Jesus Christ is not coming in the flesh.”

“Watch out,” John says, “for people who say or imply that Jesus isn’t coming in the flesh, who tell you not to get too serious about prophecy and not to look for Jesus to return physically.” Who says this? Jehovah’s Witnesses, for one. They say Jesus came—but not in the flesh. He came secretly in the Spirit and revealed Himself only to the Watchtower Society. According to the passage before us, this puts Jehovah’s Witnesses in the camp of the Enemy.

Which type of people are we to shun?

2 John 9–11
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

This is a strong word. We are not to get involved with people who don’t believe in the literal, physical return of Jesus. We are not to say, “God bless you,” to such people, or to invite them into our homes. Those who reject Jesus Christ, those who are not looking for Jesus Christ, those who have diminished the Person of Jesus Christ are to be shunned.

It’s a good thing these strong words come from the pen of John—for if Paul had written them, this severe warning could simply be attributed to his forceful personality. But the fact that this warning comes from the “apostle of love” makes it all the more imperative.

Pointing people to Heaven.

3 John 1–7
The Elder, To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth: Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Beloved, you do faithfully whatever you do for the brethren and for strangers, who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well, because they went forth for His name’s sake, taking nothing from the Gentiles

In the days before Motel 6, Gaius would not only house itinerant preachers, apostles, and prophets, but he would provide for them financially so that, as they journeyed, they wouldn’t have to take anything from the Gentiles. So, too, for us to walk in truth and love means we assist people on their journey toward heaven by reminding them of the faithfulness of God and the nearness of heaven.

It is our privilege and our responsibility to say to people, “God will do what He promised. He will never leave you. He will see you through here on earth.” And it is also our privilege and responsibility to direct their eyes to heaven. After all, it was by immediately directing their hearts to heaven that Jesus could calm the disciples’ troubled hearts on earth (John 14:1-2). If one takes heaven out of the equation, he’s left with desperate, disturbed, depressed people. Heaven in the equation changes everything.

Keeping ourselves in the love of God.

Jude 1-5 (a)
This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James. I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more mercy, peace, and love. Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. But I want to remind you, though you once knew this,

The foundational theme of this wonderful epistle, as found in verse 21, is an exhortation to keep ourselves in the love of God. Underline this phrase because it is the hinge upon which the Book of Jude swings. Jude’s heart is, “Yes, there are heretics and deceivers, but you, beloved, keep yourselves in the love of God.”

Keeping yourself in the love of God does not mean earning God’s love by being a “good little boy or girl.” God’s love is unconditional—so much so that in Romans 5:8, Paul declares that God demonstrated His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. When did God demonstrate His love for you and me? Not when we were trying to be good Christians, but when we were pagans, heathens, and rebels. When you couldn’t have cared less about Him, God looked at you and said, “I love you deeply.”

Never buy into the thinking that you earn God’s love by being good. Many Christians look at God as being like Santa: He’s making a list, checking it twice, and He’s going to find out who’s naughty and who’s nice. If you’ve been good, you’ll get gifts; if not, you’ll be lucky to get a lump of coal.

But nothing could be further from the nature of our Father. Making a list? Checking it twice? Paul tells us the list of our failings was blotted out by the blood of Christ (Colossians 2:14). The list of my sins was pinned to the Cross of Calvary and cleansed so thoroughly by the blood of the Lamb that the writing became completely illegible. God’s love for us is not based upon anything we do or don’t do, for His love is unconditional.

What, then, does it mean to keep yourself in the love of God? It simply means to keep yourself in the place where you can receive His blessings. In other words, God is constantly showering us with blessings, love, and grace. He’s not saying, “Hmm, you’ve been bad today, so I’m turning off the spigot.” No, God’s blessings are always coming down (Lamentations 3:23).

“Then why aren’t I being blessed?” you ask. The answer is easy: You’re not under the spout where the blessings come out. You have wandered away. God didn’t close the spigot—because even when we are faithless, He is faithful still (2 Timothy 2:13). God doesn’t monitor the flow of blessings depending on how we’re doing. No, the spigot is on full blast all the time. Therefore, the only thing we have to do is to make sure we’re in the place where we enjoy God’s blessings—that we’re standing under the spout where the blessings come out.

Am I suggesting it is possible for a person to remove himself from the place of God’s blessings? Yes. And Jude gives us three examples of those who did.

How the Jews didn't keep themselves in the love of God.

Jude 5 (b)
…that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful.

First, Jude brings to remembrance the people delivered by God. You know the story. In bondage for four hundred years, the Israelites cried out to the Lord. The Lord raised up Moses as a deliverer and worked powerfully through him. After He smote Egypt with ten plagues, the Israelites were finally released. They made it to the edge of the Red Sea, where God not only parted the water but also unleashed the very same water on their enemies.

Then what happened? They came to the border of Kadesh Barnea and sent twelve spies to scope out the land. “Wow!” said the spies upon their return. “It’s beautiful. It’s prolific, productive, and perfect! There’s only one problem: Tens of thousands of Anakim, giants—Shaquille O’Neals—occupy the land. We’re nothing but grasshoppers in their sight, and we’re sure to be squished.”

Joshua and Caleb, two of the twelve spies, countered, saying, “Hey, we might be grasshoppers in their sight, but they’re grasshoppers in God’s sight. Therefore, they pose no problem. They’ll be bread for us. We can eat them up!” (see Numbers 14:9)

But the people chose to listen to the other ten spies instead of to Joshua and Caleb—a choice that led God to say, “Okay, because you don’t believe what I intended to do for you, you’re going to have to wander in the wilderness until a new generation is raised up” (see Numbers 14:22-23).

Thus, because God’s people, who were delivered by Him, did not keep themselves in the assurance of His love and provision, they ended up dying in the desert.

How the angels in heaven didn't keep themselves in the love of God and became demons.

Jude 6
And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

Second, not only can those delivered by God fail to keep themselves in the love of God, but so can those who are worshipers of God. Lucifer was the leader of all the worshipers of heaven. The one the Bible calls the “Anointed Cherub” (Ezekiel 28:13-17) had a voice like a pipe organ and hands like tambourines. He wasn’t just a worship leader, he was a full on orchestra until the day he said, “I will be like God,” and launched a rebellion in which one third of the angels followed him.

Amazing. Here, the worshipers of God in heaven became demons in hell because they did not keep themselves in the love of God.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1648). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Emwitus]

would you leave your partner if he doesnt believe in god?

First of all, thanks for bailing me out. LOL. I was having a hard time picking a topic. For me, it depends in a number of things. Is the person agnostic or atheist? And if yes, is her stance having a negative impact on my faith? If it is, then yes i would leave her. On the other hand, if not, i'd make an effort to make her see why I am a christian and why i think she should consider my faith. I would want to spend an eternity with her

 

[ganbareneopokekun]

First of all, thanks for bailing me out. LOL. I was having a hard time picking a topic. For me, it depends in a number of things. Is the person agnostic or atheist? And if they are is his stance having a negative impact on my faith? If it is, then yes i would leave her. On the other hand, if not, i'd make an effort to make her see why I am a christian and why i think she should consider my faith. I would want to spend an eternity with her

ok thanks!
my gf left me yesterday after 3 1/2 years cause i couldnt answer her the question "do you search for god?"
when we met she told me that she only wants a christian as her bf and thought that i could accomplish this some day.
I never tried to stop her from believing in god neither tried to indoctrine her with my thoughts.

feels bad man..



edit: thats just a super duper short summary of what happend.. i think both of us made mistakes.
but i just wanted to know why you would leave someone that you love just bc of your faith

edit2: no i'm not a atheist.. just can't believe in god

 

[ganbareneopokekun]

double post...

 

[archnemesis]

edit2: no i'm not a atheist.. just can't believe in god

What would you label yourself as then? A cultural Christian?

 

[ganbareneopokekun]

agnostic?

 

[JGS]

would you leave your partner if he doesnt believe in god?

I wouldn't leave [her], but I wouldn't seek out or get serious with someone who didn't largely share my beliefs.

My beliefs certainly could be a big issue since any kids would be taught my view. She could teach hers as well but there would likely not be reconciliation on that one. Short answer - not worth it.

 

[ganbareneopokekun]

sounds reasonable..
i guess some christian ppl need a christian partner in life and some christians don't place that much value on it.

 

[archnemesis]

agnostic?

Almost all atheists on this message board are agnostic atheists. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm also of the same opinion as JGS and would avoid having any kids with someone who didn't largely share my beliefs. A casual relationship would be fine though.

 

[mrbagdt]

as a christian, i also believe that you should not marry someone who does not have the same beliefs as you (primarily that jesus was the son of god, died for our sins and was raised from the dead). at my church we teach that you should never segregate yourself from non-believers, you should never judge them, you should always be loving to them and be christ-like towards them. that being said, you should never form close, tight friendships with non-believers, you should not go into business with a non-believer and you should not marry a non-believer. this is primarily taught to keep yourself safe from the issues that will inevitably arise from a relationship like that.

 

[Chaplain]

People did and do whatever seems right in their own eyes.

Jude 7–10
And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment. In the same way, these people—who claim authority from their dreams—live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings. But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.) But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction.

Third, Jude says, “Not only can you be delivered by God and be a worshiper of God, but you can receive blessing from God and still fail to keep yourself in His love.” You see, at one time, Sodom and Gomorrah were cities uniquely blessed by God. In the agrarian economy of the day, the place to be was Sodom or Gomorrah.

We read in Genesis 13 that after leaving Egypt, Abraham and Lot had so much livestock between them that the land could no longer support them. “We’re going to have to separate,” Abraham said to Lot. “Wherever you want to go, I’ll go in the opposite direction.” So, after checking out the situation, Lot found the best pasture land, the ideal place to raise livestock, the perfect place to get rich: the plain of Jordan, wherein lay Sodom and Gomorrah.

At one time, Sodom and Gomorrah were truly blessed by God. Yet, what happened? They turned their backs on the Lord and were eventually destroyed. This is very sobering to me because it says,

• So you’ve been saved—so were they who wandered in the wilderness.
• So you’ve been a worshiper—so were they who are now in hell as demons.
• So you’ve been blessed—so were they who were destroyed by their own depravity.

Gang, it is possible to experience deliverance by God, to partake in worship to God, to receive blessing from God, and still not keep yourself in the love of God.

How can this happen? After giving us three examples, Jude goes on to provide three explanations.

What does it mean to "have gone in the way of Cain"?

Jude 11 (a)
Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain…

The first explanation for why people no longer experience the love of God in their lives is that they’ve gone the way of Cain. The way of Cain is anger. Cain was angry with his brother, Abel, because God blessed Abel, but He didn’t bless Cain. It’s not fair, Cain must have thought. We both offered sacrifices to God. Abel brought a lamb, and I brought the fruit of my labor from the garden, but God blessed my brother’s and not mine (see Genesis 4:4-5). And such anger took root in Cain’s heart that he killed his brother.

If you’re angry with your spouse, bitter toward your boss, unforgiving of your brother, you have gone the way of Cain. Watch out for anger, gang. It’ll pull you away from the place where you just enjoy God’s love. It will draw you away from the spout where the blessings come out.

How greed kept Balaam from God’s love.

Jude 11 (b)
…have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit…

Jude draws our attention not only to the anger of Cain but also to the greed of Balaam. You know Balaam’s story. The children of Israel, all three million of them, were on their way to the Promised Land. “Whoa,” said Balak, king of the Moabites. “There’s a horde of people coming our way, and unless we do something, we’re going to get trampled.”

Knowing of a prophet in the area named Balaam, Balak sent messengers asking him to curse the approaching Israelites. “Wait here,” Balaam said to the messengers, “I must talk to God about this.” Even before Balaam asked, the Lord told him not to curse the Israelites (Numbers 22:9-12). So the messengers returned to Balak with word of Balaam’s refusal to join them. Balak, in turn, sent some VIPs to Balaam.

They arrived in their Mercedes and their flashy clothes, saying, “Come with us, and you’ll be blessed.”

“Listen, guys,” said Balaam, “even if you offered me a house full of silver and gold (hint, hint), I wouldn’t go with you.”

So once again, the messengers returned empty-handed. And yet, a third time they appeared before Balaam, this time offering him a portion of wealth and honor. A third time, Balaam said he would seek the Lord. But this time, God gave him permission to go, so off Balaam went. En route, however, an angel appeared to his donkey, causing the donkey to crash into a wall, smashing Balaam’s foot in the process. “You dumb donkey. You crushed my foot,” Balaam cried as he beat his donkey.

“Why are you beating me?” asked the donkey. “Haven’t I been a good donkey all these years? I’ve never given you any problems. Don’t you see there’s an angel standing right here, preventing me from taking you where you ought not go?”

Yet even a talking donkey could not deter Balaam, so he continued on, until at last he reached the mountain overlooking the Israelite camp. Opening his mouth to curse them, all that came out was blessing. “Hey!” said Balak, “I hired you to curse them, not to bless them! Maybe we should change locations.” So they built another altar in a different location. Once more, Balaam stood to curse. And once more, all that came from his lips were words of blessing.

The error of Balaam lay in the fact that he didn’t understand God’s grace. Balaam thought that because His people were rebellious and evil, God would surely want to destroy them. Consequently, knowing that even though he could not curse the Israelites, the Israelites could bring a curse upon themselves, Balaam told Balak to have the Moabite women parade themselves in front of the Jewish men. And during the romantic interludes that were sure to follow, the Moabite women would be able to introduce the Jewish men to their idols.

Balaam was right. In the Book of Numbers, we read “the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.” The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and twenty-four thousand died as a result (Numbers 25:1-9).

Why did Balaam, who spoke some of the most beautiful prophecies in all of the Old Testament about the coming of Messiah, end up a heretic and a loser? Because he did not keep himself in God’s love. Why didn’t he keep himself in God’s love? Greed. What is greed? Never being satisfied, never being thankful, always wanting just a little more. Watch out, precious people. Greed will remove you from the spout where the blessings come out.

How the people of Korah envied and were kept from God's love because of the sin of envy.

Jude 11 (c)
…and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Korah’s sin was envy. We find his story in Numbers 16: “Moses, who made you the big enchilada? I have just as much right to determine direction for this nation as you do.” So saying, Korah led a rebellion that resulted in the deaths of nearly fifteen thousand of God’s people. Beware of envy—of wanting someone else’s position.

Joseph’s brothers were jealous. Joseph had a coat of many colors, or literally, a coat of “big sleeves.” In Joseph’s day, working men wore sleeveless coats, like vests, in order that their arms would be free to labor. But the bosses, the supervisors, the head honchos wore coats with big sleeves in which they could keep money and supplies—sort of like briefcases.

Sometimes we look at someone else’s big sleeves and say, “Boy, that guy’s got it made.” But Joseph’s big sleeves were hardly an asset. You see, envious of Joseph’s position, his brothers sold him as a slave to a group headed for Egypt. There, Joseph was eventually promoted to the position of head slave. No doubt some of his fellow prisoners looked at him and said, “Boy, I wish I had the coat of a head slave”—little knowing that even this coat would get him in trouble as he shed it to flee Mrs. Potiphar’s advances (Genesis 39:12).

Just rest in the place God has you, gang. He’ll put you right where you should be. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t want to be all that the Lord would have us be. But there comes a point when we’re no longer saying, “Lord, I want to develop the talents and abilities you’ve given me to the fullest degree,” but rather, “I’ve got to do whatever it takes to gain that guy’s position. I’ve got to be the guy with the big sleeves.”

What happened to Korah? The ground opened up and sucked him in (Numbers 16:31-33). Here’s an easy way to find yourself in the pit: Be envious of another’s position. You don’t know what you’re headed for; you don’t see what you’re getting into; and before you know it, your world will come crashing down upon you.

I wouldn’t have chosen anger, greed, and envy as the three reasons people move away from God’s blessings. I would have listed cocaine, pornography, and larceny. Why? Because those things are not my problem. You see, we tend to think the sins that will take a man away from the spout where God’s blessings come out are the biggies we don’t do. Not true. God has an entirely different way of looking at things. And in His Word, He says through Jude to me and to you, “These are three specific areas that will keep you from enjoying and experiencing My love.”

How Apostates are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck us.

Jude 12 (a)
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves.

The “certain men who crept in unnoticed” (verse 4) were those who, like Korah, Cain, and Balaam, endangered God’s people, seeking to woo them away from the simplicity of God’s grace. Jude calls them “spots.” They’re like hidden rocks, he says. They join in your fellowship, in your potluck dinners, in your celebration of the grace and goodness of God—but with a hidden agenda. Like hidden rocks, they blend in presently, but they will cause you to crash eventually. And then he goes on to use even stronger metaphors to describe these false teachers.

Jude 12 (b)
They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds;

They’re waterless clouds. That is, they seem to say all sorts of wonderful things, but their teaching leads only to dry, discouraging days.

Jude 12 (c)
late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots.

Because they’re dead trees, they bear no fruit.

Jude 13 (a)
Raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame…

They’re wild waves. They have lots of motion, but erratic, meaningless, and wasted energy.

Jude 13 (b)
…wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Finally, Jude likens the false teachers to wandering—or shooting—stars. Even in our little valley, I have seen people come on the scene with all sorts of fantastic promises, all kinds of interesting doctrines, shining brightly for a month or two or three. Then when hard times came, or things didn’t work out, like shooting stars, they fizzled, faded, and moved on to the next unsuspecting community.

Enoch prophesied about the Apostates of our time.

Jude 14–16
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.

The same problems Jude is addressing affect the body of Christ today. False teachers, “mouthing great swelling words,” continue to peddle their phony doctrines to anyone who will listen. If you’ve been walking with the Lord very long, you know that as soon as one strange wind of doctrine blows through, another is sure to follow.

The apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ said that in the last days there would be scoffers whose purpose in life is to satisfy their ungodly desires.

Jude 17–19
But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Happy is the man or woman who understands that the gospel message is profoundly simple and simply profound. It’s Jesus—nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

After giving us three examples of people who walked away from God’s love and three explanations of why they did so, Jude now gives us three exhortations to keep ourselves in the love of God.

How to keep ourselves in the love of God number 1 - building up our faith.

Jude 20 (a)
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith…

The first way to keep yourself in the place where you’re being drenched in the love of God is to build up your faith. How are we built up in faith? The Bible tells us very simply that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17). That’s it. To keep yourself in the love of God means that you continue to be a student of the Word. You build up your faith by taking in God’s Word, by daily making the practice of spending time in Scripture a priority, by assembling with other believers to study the Word corporately (Hebrews 10:25).

How to keep ourselves in the love of God number 2 - praying in the Holy Spirit.

Jude 20 (b)
…praying in the Holy Spirit.

What does it mean to pray in the Holy Spirit? It means allowing the Holy Spirit to inspire your prayers, saying, “Lord, I don’t want to come to You with my ideas and my agenda because I don’t know what these things might lead to if You grant them to me. So I come to You, Lord, asking for Your Spirit to inspire me to pray. Guide my conversation, Lord. Help me to pray biblically, to be guided by Your Spirit even as I talk with You right now.”

To pray in the Spirit means the Spirit is inspiring prayer. To pray in the Spirit also sometimes means just groaning. “Oh, Lord, I don’t know what to do about this. I don’t know how to handle that.” Ever just groan? Paul did, for in Romans 8 he writes that the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered (verse 26). Praying in the Spirit says, “Lord, I can’t even articulate my situation without You.”

Second, praying in the Spirit means praying in tongues. Speaking specifically of praying in tongues, Paul says, “I will pray with the Spirit and I will pray with understanding also. I’m going to allow this miraculous, mysterious process of the Spirit praying through me with words I do not understand intellectually and have not learned academically” (see 1 Corinthians 14:15).

I encourage those of you who have exercised this particular manifestation to continue to develop it. Your mind will rebel against it. You mind will ask, “Why do it? What good is it?” But Paul says, “I would that you all spoke with tongues” (see 1 Corinthians 14:5). That is why I am personally strongly persuaded that if you read 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 carefully, you will conclude that, while placing severe restrictions around the public utterance of tongues, Paul encourages the private, devotional use of the prayer language.

Being led by the Spirit, groaning in the Spirit, using a prayer language from the Spirit are all aspects of what it means to pray in the Holy Ghost.

How to keep ourselves in the love of God number 3 - looking for the second coming of Jesus.

Jude 21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Finally, we are to keep ourselves in the love of God by looking for the coming of Jesus. How it affects my priorities, how it changes my perspective, how it alters my emotions when I say, “Lord, today I’m going to look for Your coming.” Today might be the day, dear saints. What a difference it makes when we remember this.

Stay in the Word. Pray in the Spirit. Look for Jesus’ coming—three things you can do to keep yourself under the spout where the blessings come out. They’re practical, workable, doable—and, interestingly, we see in them faith, love, and hope: Faith, by being in the Word (Romans 10:17); love, by praying in the Spirit whose fruit is love (Galatians 5:22); and hope, by looking for the blessed hope of our Lord’s return (Titus 2:13).

Jude gives two approaches to reaching out to those who have been affected by false teachers.

Jude 22, 23 (a)
And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire…

What about those who have been affected by false teachers, who are caught up in wrong doctrine? What are we to do with them? Jude gives two approaches. To some, show compassion. Be very gentle with them as you patiently wait for them to see the light. Others, however, you have to grab by the nape of the neck and yank them out of the destructive stuff with which they’re involved.

The Great Awakening in America was ushered in by a man who spoke in a monotone voice, and who had such bad eyesight that he could only occasionally squint at his congregation from above the manuscript he held inches from his face. He preached a sermon many of you have studied in literature class entitled, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” in which he likened mankind to a spider dangling over a fire with only one thread separating it from damnation. And when he was finished, people began to weep under the conviction of the Spirit.

Some people you can minister to with compassion, stressing the goodness of God, for doesn’t Paul say in Romans 2:4 that it’s the goodness of God that leads men to repentance? Others, however, you have to grab by the collar, and like Jonathan Edwards, dangle them over hell.

Paul wrote, "Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself."

Jude 23 (b)
…hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

In the Old Testament, whenever a man was cleansed from leprosy—a picture of sin—his garments were to be burned (Leviticus 13:52). Jude uses this as an analogy to say, “When you’re dealing with folks who are caught up in perversity, make sure you yourself are not affected.” In other words, “Save the man, but burn the garment.”

A prayer of praise.

Jude 24, 25
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.

Finally, after all of his warning, Jude leaves us in a place of rest, saying God is the One who will keep us from falling.

God’s love is unconditional, never turned off, never diminished. The only question is: Will you plant yourself in the place where you can be drenched with it?

Jude tells us exactly how to do that as he exhorts us to stay in the Word, pray in the Spirit, and look for our Lord’s coming. “If you know these things, happy are you if you do them,” Jesus said (see John 13:17).

I love the simplicity of the Word! May the Lord build your faith as you study it. May He fill you with love as you pray in the Spirit. May He give you hope as you look for His coming.
Amen!

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1651). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Chaplain]

An overview of the Book of Revelation

Many people are afraid of the Book of Revelation because they think it’s a difficult book to comprehend. Not so. The word “revelation” means just the opposite: the revealing, the unveiling.

The Book of Revelation is very simple—particularly because it’s the only Book with its own divine outline, found in chapter 1 verse 19, where Jesus told John to “write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.”

If you follow this divine outline, the Book unfolds very easily.…

I.. The things which thou hast seen—chapter 1
The reality of the Resurrected Jesus

II.. The things which are—chapters 2–3
Jesus gives seven messages to seven churches, wherein lies the chronological flow of church history from the beginning of the early church to the present.

III.. The things which shall be hereafter…
Chapters 4–5
The church is raptured and taken to heaven for a seven-year “honeymoon” with the Lord.

Chapters 6–19
The Tribulation occurs on earth as God pours out His wrath on a Christ-rejecting, sinful world.

Chapter 19
At the end of chapter 19, the Lord comes back to Jerusalem with His church to establish His kingdom.

Chapter 20
The Millennium—a thousand-year period of peace and prosperity—follows as the Lord rules and reigns from Jerusalem. At the end of the Millennium, Satan is loosed. A final rebellion ensues before Satan is put away permanently.

Chapters 21–22
A new heaven and a new earth are created wherein we will live oh, so happily ever after.

Prologue

Who is the Book of Revelation about?

Revelation 1:1 (a)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ…

As you open the Book of Revelation, perhaps the title in your Bible reads: The Revelation of St. John the Divine. You must understand that the title, chapter, and verse delineation in the Bible were not in the original text, and are, therefore, not inspired. This is the revelation not of John, but of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:1 (b)
…which God gave Him…

The pronoun “him” in this verse refers back to Jesus Christ. This whole Book—the revelation of how the Lord is ruling and reigning, of how all things are going according to plan—was given to Jesus. “I don’t know the time of the coming of the kingdom,” said Jesus. “Only My Father has the full plan” (see Mark 13:32)—which raises a very intriguing question: Did Jesus know everything?

In Luke 2:52, we read that Jesus grew in stature and wisdom. In other words, He went through life learning. That is why His baptism is so significant, for it was then that His Father’s voice thundered from heaven, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” It was then, at thirty years of age, that Jesus fully realized He had come to die.

Events that must soon take place?

Revelation 1:1 (c)
…to show His servants—things which must shortly take place…

The Father gave revelation to the Son. The Son gave revelation to John. And John gave revelation to us that we might understand the things that must shortly come to pass. “Shortly come to pass?” you say. “This book is over two thousand years old!” The Greek word translated “shortly” is en tachei, meaning “must come to pass with rapidity.” It’s the same Greek word from which we get the word “tachometer”—the instrument used to determine the speed of an engine. Thus, the Lord is telling us in this verse that when end-time events begin to happen, they’ll increase their rpms and happen with greater rapidity.

Heading south from Medford, Oregon on I-5 toward San Diego, I don’t see a single sign that says San Diego until I get past Chico, where I see only one. Then I don’t see another one until I get to San Jose. But as I go farther south, the signs start appearing a little more frequently, until I get to Ventura. Suddenly, the signs appear every fifty miles. When I get past LA, the signs appear with even greater rapidity until I finally see the sign reading, “Welcome to San Diego.”

That’s the idea here, folks. Things begin slowly. One sign appears. Then, maybe one hundred years pass before another sign is seen. But one day, all of a sudden, the tachometer will show the engine revving up and sign upon sign will be seen.

Why does the Book of Revelation seem to be written in code?

Revelation 1:1 (d)
…and He sent and signified it by His angel…

The word “signified” means “written with signs”—which explains why people read the Book of Revelation and say, “It seems to be written in code.” Why was it written this way? I suggest three reasons:

First, the Book of Revelation was written with signs to provide protection. At the time John wrote this letter, there was a tremendous wave of persecution afflicting the church. Consequently, this letter was written in such a way that, although it would make no sense to the enemies of the church, those who knew Scripture would find it relatively easy to understand.

Second, the Book of Revelation was written with signs to convey information. Language changes with time. Read your King James Bible, written in 1611, and the changes in language that have taken place since it was written are obvious. Pictures and symbols, on the other hand, are timeless and thus convey more clearly the thoughts and intent of the writer.

Finally, the Book of Revelation was written with signs in order to arouse emotions. It’s one thing to say, “There’s a world political leader coming.” It’s something else to say, “The Beast is coming.” It’s one thing to refer to a commercial system. It’s something else to call it Babylon the Whore. It’s one thing to say “Christians,” and another to say, “the bride of Christ.” It’s one thing to talk about authority and something else to talk about the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. These images are powerful, vivid, indelible.

John wrote five NT books.

Revelation 1:1 (e)
…to His servant John.

John, the “disciple whom Jesus loved,” was used by the Lord to author five books. The Gospel of John was written that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31). First, 2, and 3 John were written that we might know we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Thus, John wrote his Gospel that we might believe, his epistles that we might be sure, and the Book of Revelation that we might be ready.

How do we continue to receive fresh revelation from God?

Revelation 1:2
Who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

Revelation was entrusted to John because he bore record of the testimony of Jesus and of all the things he saw. People who say, “I don’t seem to be growing in the Lord,” must understand that when it comes to revelation, information, or inspiration, the Lord has a very definite prerequisite: Are we going to personally receive it in our heart and freely release it to others?

After visiting with Abraham, the Lord said to His angels, “I’m going to tell Abraham what is going to come down in Sodom because I know he will not only receive but share it” (see Genesis 18:17-19).

Jesus put it this way: Take heed how you hear—for the one who has shall be given more (Mark 4:24-25). In other words, if you come to Bible study or your morning devotions saying, “Entertain me,” or, “I’m curious about prophecy,” you won’t receive. But if you are hearing, studying, learning, praying, and reading for the purpose of embracing what you receive and sharing it with others, the Lord will give you continual revelation.

What is the purpose of reading the Bible out loud?

Revelation 1:3 (a)
Blessed is he who reads…

The Greek word translated “reads” literally means “to read out loud.” I often encourage people to read their Bibles out loud. Why? Because I find if I don’t read my Bible aloud, I have a tendency to read only the passages I’ve highlighted—which are usually promises like: “Delight yourself in the Lord, and He’ll give you the desires of your heart.” “My God shall supply all your needs according to His riches.” “All things work together for good to those who love God.” What I don’t have underlined are verses like, “All those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” “Blessed are you when men shall revile you, persecute you, and speak all manner of evil against you.” Sometimes we need to study the passages not underlined in our Bibles. And the way this can be done practically is by reading aloud.

Revelation 1:3 (b)
…and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

I find that hearing the Word spoken audibly has a powerful impact on my heart. That is why I also encourage people to pray out loud. It’s not for God’s sake—but to keep us focused and engaged.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1665). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Chaplain]

Seven churches in Asia?

Revelation 1:4 (a)
John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Asia does not refer to Korea, Japan, or Viet Nam. It refers to present-day Turkey. Why was this letter written to the church in Turkey rather than to the church at Jerusalem, or Rome, Colosse, or Antioch? After all, it seems those would have been much more appropriate choices. Why was this letter written to seven churches in Turkey? Because no other churches could have so perfectly painted the picture they portray.

The Trinity in the book of Revelation

Revelation 1:4 (b), 5 (a)
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness…

Here we see the Trinity.…

“Him which is, and was, and is to come” is God the Father.
“What’s Your name?” asked Moses of God in Exodus 3.
“I Am that I Am,” God answered—the Tetragrammaton that became so sacred to the Jews that they would only write the consonants: YHWH.

The seven Spirits refer to the seven-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit as seen in Isaiah 11:2.

Jesus Christ is indeed the faithful Witness.
“Show us the Father,” Philip said, “and it will suffice us.”
“He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” answered Jesus (John 14:9).

Jesus was not created

Revelation 1:5 (b)
…and the first begotten of the dead and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood...

“Aha!” the cultist says. “Jesus is begotten. Therefore, He didn’t always exist.” Wrong. We refer to Laura Bush as the First Lady. Does this mean she’s the first lady who ever lived? No. “First Lady” refers to her position. So, too, in Jeremiah 31:9 God calls Ephraim His firstborn. Was Ephraim the firstborn? No. Although he was the younger brother, however, Ephraim had prominence. Thus, “first begotten” in Scripture speaks not of precedence—but of preeminence.

What will we do during the Millennium?

Revelation 1:6 (a)
And has made us kings and priests unto God and his Father…

In the Millennium, we’ll rule and reign on the earth as kings and priests (Revelation 5:10)

.

The whole world will see Jesus when He returns.

Revelation 1:6 (b)–7
…to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

When the final battle in the Valley of Megiddo is being fought, when the nations of the world come against the Jews to annihilate Israel, suddenly when it looks so bleak, the Lord will come back. And the Jews will say, “Where did You get those wounds?” “In the house of My friends,” He’ll answer (Zechariah 13:6).

And all the people shall wail, “We fought against Him. We didn’t believe in Him. And now He’s here.”

Jehovah’s Witness & Mormon theology exposed.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Ask a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon the identity of the speaker in this verse, and he’ll say it’s Jehovah, or God the Father.

Turn him to Isaiah 41:4, which reads: Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the Lord, am the first; And with the last I am He.’” and ask of whom it speaks.
“Jehovah,” he’ll say.

Then turn him to Isaiah 44:6, which reads: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.” and ask of whom it speaks.
“Jehovah,” he’ll say.

Then turn him to Isaiah 48:12, which reads: “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.” and ask of whom it speaks.
“Jehovah,” he’ll say.

Then turn him to Revelation 21:6-7, which reads: “And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be his God, and he shall be my son,” and ask him who it is who cries out “It Is Finished,” and who says He will give the water of the fountain of life freely?”

“Jehovah,” he’ll say—even though it was Jesus who cried out on the Cross, “It is Finished,” and who said, “If any man thirst, let him come to Me” (John 7:37).

Then turn him to Revelation 22:12-13, which reads: “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last” and ask of whom it speaks. “Jehovah,” he’ll say—even though verse 16 identifies the Speaker of verses 12-13 as Jesus.

And now he has a problem, for the reference in Revelation clearly being to Jesus, either there are two firsts and two lasts, two alphas and two omegas, two beginnings and two endings—or else Jesus and the Father are one.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1667). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Chaplain]

The prophet Jeremiah wrote, "But His word was in my heart like a burning fire."

Revelation 1:9 (a)
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was not only a pastor but also a theologian. Banished to Patmos, the Word put him where he was. But the Word also made him who he was. John is a giant of Christendom because he was a man of the Word.

John was a pastor, a theologian, and a poet.

Revelation 1:10 (a)
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day…

Not only a pastor and a theologian, John was a poet. Under the inspiration of the Spirit, John painted pictures to impact the emotions of a people going through tough times and tremendous difficulties. John wanted his people to have more than dead doctrine. He wanted them to feel the reality of the Lord’s coming burning in their hearts and illuminating their imaginations.

I say this because if you don’t read this book as poetry—if you read it only intellectually or academically—you’ll miss a key component. You’ve got to keep reminding yourself that the people to whom John was writing were watching their kids die, their wives being dragged off, their husbands disappear. The people to whom John was writing weren’t saying, “What can we learn about the latest rap on the mark of the beast?” No, they were saying, “What’s going on? Why aren’t things working out? Is there hope?”

“Yes!” answers John, the poet. “I want you to feel the drama, see the picture, taste the reality—for then your heart will be stirred, your faith strengthened.”

Revelation 1:10 (b), 11 (a)
…and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”…

Why is this repeated? After all, John said the same thing just two verses earlier. I suggest it is because most people don’t struggle with the Alpha or the Omega. They know God looked at creation and declared it good. And they know in the end, in heaven, things will be good. But where people have a hard time is in the middle. They question and struggle with the things going on presently. “Why is this happening? Why didn’t God do this? Where was God when that happened?” they cry.

So what does a pastor, a theologian, a poet do? He whispers in people’s ears over and over again that God is in control, that God is on the throne, that the same God who did the good work in the beginning is here in the middle and will come through in the end.

And that’s what we must do. We must whisper over and over in the ears of our teenagers, our friends, our neighbors, “God is here, and He’s going to see you through.”

The following seven churches speak of the seven epochs of church history,

Revelation 1:11 (b)
…and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

As we will see in chapters 2 and 3, each church speaks of a period in church history chronologically and consecutively.

It's all about Jesus.

Revelation 1:12
Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands.

The seven golden candlesticks refer to the golden lamp stand of Exodus 25, which, with three lamps on each side of a main stem, speak both of John 15, where Jesus said, “I am the Vine and you are the branches,” and of John 8 where He declared Himself to be the Light of the world. As seen in Matthew 5, we are to let our light shine as well—which can only happen as we stay connected to the Stem of the candlestick, the true Vine, Jesus Christ.

Notice also the candlestick is made of gold, which speaks of divinity. But it was not molten gold, it was one piece of beaten gold because Jesus was beaten that we might be included with Him in the lamp stand.

Three interesting tidbits.

Revelation 1:13 (a)
And in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

1. Perhaps it was because it spoke of His ability to relate to people that the term “Son of man” was the term Jesus used most often to speak of Himself. The term also has prophetic implication, for in Daniel 7:13, we read of the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven.

2. The Son of Man is clothed to His feet—which speaks of the priesthood (Exodus 28:42). His entire body is covered. Who is the body of Christ? We are. We’re covered with the robe of His righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).

3. In Old Testament times, priests would normally wear girdles, or beltlike sashes, around their waists. But in this case we see the girdle around the chest—which would speak of the One who’s in the midst of His church. You see, when Jesus was on earth, He wept for Lazarus, and for a lost world. But now there’s a sash binding His heart. There’s no weeping because He is in control. He’s on the throne. Everything is going according to plan.

Jesus' head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were like flames of fire. Huh?

Revelation 1:14 (a)
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow…

I’ve seen frightening pictures based on this chapter, depicting a white-haired Jesus with eyes blazing and a sword protruding from His mouth. But that’s not the picture John was painting. John’s poetry must be seen in conjunction with scriptures given previously. What does “white as snow” bring to mind? Isaiah 1:18, where we read, “…though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.…” Thus, white hair represents the forgiveness and mercy that permeate Jesus’ mind. “I know where you’ve been,” He says. “But you are cleansed. You are forgiven. You are white. That’s the way I see you.”

Rev 1:14 (b)
…and His eyes like a flame of fire.

Fire can be frightening, but in a fireplace, there’s nothing more inviting or comforting. I suggest we see both aspects in the eyes of Jesus.…

When we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, He’s going to look at all of our works. The wood, hay, and stubble—all of our fleshly, futile efforts—will ignite under His gaze of fire, leaving only the gold, silver, and precious stones—that which He did through and in spite of us. Then, with eyes of warmth and love, He will look at us and say, “Well done!”

To me, this is a tremendous relief because I know I have a whole lot of wood, a huge pile of hay, and all sorts of stubble. But in that day, it will all disappear under His gaze.

Why do Jesus' feet look burned?

Revelation 1:15
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.

The mention of furnace would bring to the minds of the persecuted believers to whom John was writing the story of three others who endured the fire of persecution. But guess who was in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego. Jesus was (Daniel 3:25). His feet are burned because He’s been through the same furnaces we have.

What is the two-edged sword coming out of Jesus' mouth?

Revelation 1:16 (a)
He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword…

Again, don’t miss the poetry here. It’s not as though Jesus opens His mouth to smile and a big sword emerges. Rather, the sword symbolizes the Word He speaks—full of grace and truth (John 1:14).

Matthew 17:2

Revelation 1:16 (b)
…and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Reminiscent of the blessing in Numbers 6, the allusion here is to graciousness and peace.

Spurgeon said, “It matters not what aileth us if we lie at Jesus’ feet. Better be dead there than alive anywhere else.”

Revelation 1:17 (a)
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.

Some use this Scripture as biblical justification for being slain in the Spirit. But I want you to notice John did not fall backward. He fell at Jesus’ feet. There’s only one place in the Bible where people fell backward: the Garden of Gethsemane, when two words—I AM—knocked the feet out from under the soldiers sent to arrest Jesus (John 18:6).

What is this book about?

Revelation 1:17 (b)–18 (a)
But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen

Notice the order: John heard. He saw. He fell. Then he was touched, revived, and commissioned into ministry to write “the things which he had seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.”

John turned to see what he heard and found it led to a deeper understanding and renewed appreciation of Jesus Christ. And that, gang, is what this book before us is all about. Revelation is not given primarily to give us information about Bible prophecy, but to bring to us a revelation of Jesus Christ personally.

Why does Jesus hold the keys of hell and of death?

Revelation 1:18 (b)
…and have the keys of hell and of death.

The keys of hell and death are not to lock people up but to set people free. “I can get you out of your damnable, hellish situation if you’ll let Me,” Jesus says. “I can save you from hell eternally if you’ll receive Me. My desire is to set you free” (see Luke 4:18). The Lord holds the keys to that which is imprisoning you, gang. Let this One with the eyes of a warm fire set you free.

"Angelos, the word translated “angel,” also means “messenger” and is referring to the pastors, the leaders of the seven churches."

Revelation 1:19, 20
Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Why are they likened to stars? Because according to Daniel 12, those who turn many to righteousness will shine as stars forever. Truly, once you start sharing your faith, once you start reflecting the goodness and grace of God, there will be a radiance about you that will draw others to your Savior. Try it and see!

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1670). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The Trinity doesn't seem very clearly elaborated in the Bible.

 

[Gileadxv]

The Trinity doesn't seem very clearly elaborated in the Bible.

This thread has already been down that road, and it just serves to derail the thread's intended purpose. As previously demonstrated within this thread, opinions and views are unlikely to be changed regardless of the argument put forth. People hold lots of varying views on a wide range of topics. With this in mind, as Christians, we would be better served if we focused on what unites us, rather than what divides. Is the topic of the trinity important? Absolutely. However, in this venue, and given the history of this thread, such a statement as yours comes across as Troll-bait (which I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that was not your intended purpose).

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought" -- 1 Corinthians 1:10

There is definitely room for theological discussion, disagreements, and challenges, but I would argue that they are more appropriate for a new/different thread.

 

[OttomanScribe]

This thread has already been down that road, and it just serves to derail the thread's intended purpose. As previously demonstrated within this thread, opinions and views are unlikely to be changed regardless of the argument put forth. People hold lots of varying views on a wide range of topics. With this in mind, as Christians, we would be better served if we focused on what unites us, rather than what divides. Is the topic of the trinity important? Absolutely. However, in this venue, and given the history of this thread, such a statement as yours comes across as Troll-bait (which I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that was not your intended purpose).

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought" -- 1 Corinthians 1:10

There is definitely room for theological discussion, disagreements, and challenges, but I would argue that they are more appropriate for a new/different thread.

Maybe reply to GameAnalyst? He is posting a bunch of stuff about the trinity/refutations of Christian groups he thinks are wrong.

If you check the beginning of this thread, I was in there trying to get people to avoid such discussion and make it a community thread, that failed, so it is what it is now. Please don't try and tell me what to post

Also to you I'm an infidel, so telling me not to have division with you is difficult

 

[JGS]

Honestly the biggest problem with this thread (Which is still good imo) is that there can be an attitude of "You are either for us or against us".

I really dislike GA's commentaries not because I disagree with the guy on a lot of things (He actually says a lot of good stuff), but his blatant dislike for ones he should consider fellow Christians over a doctrinal point that isn't even remotely crystal clear.

So by his and other people's definitions, I'm no more of a Christian than a non-Christian.

That said, the thread altogether is fairly peaceful outside of trinity, hellfire, or works talk and GA is directly responsible for the thread going strong long since it's starter was banned. I kind of like the dynamic of a random question being asked and then we share our view of it.

 

[angrybus]

"Jude 5 (b)
…that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful."

For some reason that really make me laugh.

 

[Gileadxv]

Maybe reply to GameAnalyst? He is posting a bunch of stuff about the trinity/refutations of Christian groups he thinks are wrong.

If you check the beginning of this thread, I was in there trying to get people to avoid such discussion and make it a community thread, that failed, so it is what it is now. Please don't try and tell me what to post

Also to you I'm an infidel, so telling me not to have division with you is difficult

I understand that there are many people/religions that disagree with the Christian belief of the trinity. However, it is a core doctrine to orthodox Christianity. I can appreciate that there are others who identify themselves as Christians, yet do not hold onto this belief. However, this thread isn't intended to debate the merits of Christianity, but instead to be a place where Christians can gather to celebrate their faith.

If you re-read my original post, I did not make a claim as to what you can or can not post, indeed, I agreed that there is ample room for discussion and debate, but that it was more suited for a different thread. I apologize if it seemed as an attempt at censorship, that was not my intent. To put it in perspective, it would be like if I jumped into a thread that was celebrating Islam and teaching from the Koran, and I started posting objections to the authenticity of Muhammad's authority as a prophet of Allah. Regardless of the value and integrity of my argument, it would be misplaced to present it in a thread intended for worship and community, as opposed to one inviting criticism and debate.

Regarding my quote of Scripture, I was using it to provide context for what we as Christians should be striving for (particularly in this thread). Finally, I'm not too knowledgeable on the concept of "infidels" (I'm not offended by it, I realize that is what non-believers are considered by Muslims), but it's not an idea held by Christianity. You and I may disagree on core doctrines of salvation, the divinity of Christ, etc., but it doesn't change the fact you are wonderfully, and fearfully made in the image of God, and His love for you is deeper than I could give words to. If God's feelings and thoughts towards you run this strong, than who am I to view or treat or view you any different? The reality is that God desires a true relationship with everyone, but we all start on the other side of the fence due to sin. So you're not an infidel, because every true follower of Christ started in the exact same place. God bless you, brother. You are incredibly loved by an amazing God!

 

[Pollux]

The Trinity debate is boring, we've all had it a million times.

You want to REALLY get into a debate that'll get people's blood boiling?

Let's talk about "Filioque". Go!

 

[Tabris]

First I would like to say I know most of you are very faithful, and I don't mean to insult anyone by telling my background and asking some questions, I'm just curious of a Christian's point of view on this. Please forgive me (I know it's in your repertoire ) if I do come off insulting. I mean no harm and I take the stance in life that nobody is wrong in their faith even if I believe in the opposite, but nobody is right either.

I was born a Roman Catholic. Had both my baptism and communion when I was younger. I've become disillusioned with Christianity through out the years (as I researched more on religions and philosophy, and became more aware of historical events and stances of those religions) mainly due to the non-progressive views, the church getting in the way of my faith with it's dogma and really holding back Humanity in general in my opinion.

I believe in 'God' and that 'it' created life (especially with how mathematically rare the events required for life really is) and then consciousness (a 'soul') but I believe everything else is a human invention to recognize the two facts above in a believable way. I don't know what's beyond life but I hope the consciousness remains, but just because I like to hope, doesn't mean I have faith in it, it just means it's unknown for me.

I personally no longer accept Jesus Christ as my saviour (I did the communion but I don't believe I ever did accept him knowingly) as I believe in humans, not the church and it's dogma (or his dogma).

Sorry for the long back story. So now my question is as follows to get answers from your perspective:

1) Why when I am a good person, can not be one with God ("heaven") when my body dies in your beliefs, just because I don't accept Jesus as my saviour? If God is an entity with consciousness itself and not a creation force, what reasoning do you have for "him" not wanting me "back"?

1a) If it's just a case of the "rules" or surrendering from your viewpoint, then how does that make you feel? I personally would feel awfully bad for everyone that wasn't allowed to returned to "him" and would be mad at "him" for not allowing it, or is it case of you blaming everyone else for not surrendering? Is that fair when there is nothing knowable in these.

2) Why do Christians not believe in Humanity when they were created in God's image? If it's due to the "lucifers influence", then why not believe that they personally can overcome that without the need to surrender themselves to Jesus? So little faith in humanity itself? (meant as a legitimate question, not an underhanded comment)

3) What do you think of the concept "Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift a stone and you will find me."? If you believe in the Church, how do you reconcile the Gospel of Thomas? How do you know which version is true?

EDIT - Note I won't debate your responses as that's not fair in this thread, I'm just looking for your opinion and view.

 

[Pollux]

Will get back to you later, but could you answer this...

I was born a Roman Catholic. Had both my baptism and communion when I was younger. I've become disillusioned with Christianity through out the years (as I researched more on religions and philosophy, and became more aware of historical events and stances of those religions) mainly due to the non-progressive views, the church getting in the way of my faith with it's dogma and really holding back Humanity in general in my opinion.

Could you elaborate?

Edit: Just saw your edit. If you don't want to answer then no worries, I was just curious.

 

[JGS]

Sorry for the long back story. So now my question is as follows to get answers from your perspective:

1) Why when I am a good person, can not be one with God ("heaven") when my body dies in your beliefs, just because I don't accept Jesus as my saviour? If God is an entity with consciousness itself and not a creation force, what reasoning do you have for "him" not wanting me "back"?

This is a perspective problem. You cannot be "one with God" if you choose not to be. Otherwise, whose to say you can't? It's against God's wishes that he forces people to worship and against his standards of justice to reward the voluntary the same as the unwilling.

1a) If it's just a case of the "rules" or surrendering from your viewpoint, then how does that make you feel? I personally would feel awfully bad for everyone that wasn't allowed to returned to "him" and would be mad at "him" for not allowing it, or is it case of you blaming everyone else for not surrendering? Is that fair when there is nothing knowable in these.

It's OK to feel bad for people not allowed. Jesus felt a similar kind of pity. However, it's not difficult a concept to understand when we apply it to human analogies that have been mentioned many times before. On the fly and using an admittedly weak example, it's like being mad at a parent for letting their adult kid be a crackhead (What choice do they have?), but not supporting the activity.

2) Why do Christians not believe in Humanity when they were created in God's image? If it's due to the "lucifers influence", then why not believe that they personally can overcome that without the need to surrender themselves to Jesus? So little faith in humanity itself? (meant as a legitimate question, not an underhanded comment)

Christians do believe in humanity. They have faith that a significant portion of humanity has the ability to do the right thing. however, humanity has to follow another Godly quality which is humility. Jesus had it too. We acknowledge that whether we are human or angels, everything relies on God. When we try to live without God in our lives, then he allows that to happen (As he should) & we fail to live up to our full potential.

3) What do you think of the concept "Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift a stone and you will find me."? If you believe in the Church, how do you reconcile the Gospel of Thomas? How do you know which version is true?

I don't believe in that concept. If I'm not mistaken, that an Apocryphal teaching that doesn't jibe with Scripture. It is true in the sense that temples and churches aren't needed (Contrast it with mathew 18: 15-20 for example), but false imo from the standpoint of thinking God &/or Jesus is omnipresent.

 

[Tabris]

Could you elaborate?

Edit: Just saw your edit. If you don't want to answer then no worries, I was just curious.

Oh, I don't mind answering, I just mentioned I won't debate anyone's responses as it's not fair to people in this thread. I'm no longer really a Christian by the fact I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour, so it's not fair for me to debate my opinion in a thread intended for Christians to discuss their faith. I am just curious on your thoughts and views on my questions. I also appreciate the answers you provide either way.

In terms of the answer to your question (this is just my experience and views, and I know does not apply to everyone within the Christianity "blanket", so excuse the blanket statements):

- Faith getting in the way of science. Science provides the knowable, faith provides knowledge in something current unknowing. When a faith tries to override science in something knowable is where I have an issue (i.e. Evolution vs Creationism). This holds us (humanity) back.

- As part of that, there is no way to know that one's faith is wrong, as there's no such thing as being wrong in faith unless concrete science overrides that faith. I don't like the denial of other peoples faith at the hand of another's own faith. This is an essential issue with most religions.

- That for me to be a Christian according to the Roman Catholic dogma (my birthed religion), I must attend Church and must follow their guidelines (or ask for forgiveness). I cannot just believe in God (and Jesus if I accepted him as my saviour), that I would need to believe in the Church also to be accepted as Christian (the concept of acceptance is another issue I have which relates to the statement above)

- Views on homosexuality (I'm personally straight but I accept another's lifestyle), contraception (this one is really holding us back, reducing the population growth rate is tantamount to a society's success in today's modern world. Look to Africa to see how this is hurting Humanity), science (discussed above), other views of faith (discussed above but even fractured further in their own faith), etc (non-progressive views)

 

[chas]

I personally no longer accept Jesus Christ as my saviour (I did the communion but I don't believe I ever did accept him knowingly) as I believe in humans, not the church and it's dogma (or his dogma).

To believe and have faith in humanity is to believe and have faith in God. For God is perfect, how can He create anything other than perfection?

Do not give up on Jesus Christ so easily. When the Bible says you must accept Him as your savior, it is not wrong. However, you must figure out "who" or "what" Jesus Christ is. When Jesus said, "I am the way, the life, and the truth.", you must figure out "who" or "what" this "I" he is referring to. If this cannot be understood, then it will be difficult to understand all truths and connect with God. It does not conflict with your current beliefs. Shakespeare wrote, "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." That will be your hint.

Jesus has already told us that our body is the temple of God and in it dwells the Spirit of God, and that the Kingdom of Heaven is neither here nor there but "in our midst". Seek within and connect with God. You will find your answers. As long as you have the heart and willingness to walk this path, God will pave the way for you and plan everything accordingly. As it is said in the Bible, "The Lord looks not at what Man looks at, for Man looks at the outer appearances, but the Lord looks at the heart." (Samuel 16:7) It is your genuine, sincere heart that is important.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I understand that there are many people/religions that disagree with the Christian belief of the trinity. However, it is a core doctrine to orthodox Christianity. I can appreciate that there are others who identify themselves as Christians, yet do not hold onto this belief. However, this thread isn't intended to debate the merits of Christianity, but instead to be a place where Christians can gather to celebrate their faith.

What is orthodox Christianity? Like as in the Orthodox church?

If you re-read my original post, I did not make a claim as to what you can or can not post, indeed, I agreed that there is ample room for discussion and debate, but that it was more suited for a different thread. I apologize if it seemed as an attempt at censorship, that was not my intent. To put it in perspective, it would be like if I jumped into a thread that was celebrating Islam and teaching from the Koran, and I started posting objections to the authenticity of Muhammad's authority as a prophet of Allah. Regardless of the value and integrity of my argument, it would be misplaced to present it in a thread intended for worship and community, as opposed to one inviting criticism and debate.

I don't think censorship is the right word here.

People do that all the time. Indeed Christians come into the official Islamic thread and post their objections. One of the reasons I started debating here was because, if I recall correctly, way back, GA made a post about Islam in this thread.

Regarding my quote of Scripture, I was using it to provide context for what we as Christians should be striving for (particularly in this thread). Finally, I'm not too knowledgeable on the concept of "infidels" (I'm not offended by it, I realize that is what non-believers are considered by Muslims), but it's not an idea held by Christianity.

This is not correct, both in that non-believers are considered 'infidels' (the word, coming from Christianity, doesn't translate to the word we use) by Muslims and also that the idea is not held by Christianity. A scholar who I studied under met a cardinal, who used both the word 'infidel' and the word 'heathen' in their discussions.

You and I may disagree on core doctrines of salvation, the divinity of Christ, etc., but it doesn't change the fact you are wonderfully, and fearfully made in the image of God, and His love for you is deeper than I could give words to. If God's feelings and thoughts towards you run this strong, than who am I to view or treat or view you any different? The reality is that God desires a true relationship with everyone, but we all start on the other side of the fence due to sin. So you're not an infidel, because every true follower of Christ started in the exact same place. God bless you, brother. You are incredibly loved by an amazing God!

Thank you, though I have a suspicion that this is not an orthodox opinion about those who don't accept Christ as their personal Lord and saviour. I also disagree that we all start on the other side of the fence due to sin. God is just, and does not have everyone come into this world with a bunch of unforgivable sin.

 

[Gileadxv]

Sorry for the long back story. So now my question is as follows to get answers from your perspective:

First off, thank you for your transparency and candor. It seems that you encountered a stumbling block that many Catholics I've met have faced, namely the institution of religion taking precedent over the relationship that God intends to have with us. I've heard it said that religion is man working his way up to God, and a relationship is God coming to man. My intention is not to bash the Catholic church, but rather to address some of the problems we experience when the fingerprints of man get in the way of the grace of God.

1) Why when I am a good person, can not be one with God ("heaven") when my body dies in your beliefs, just because I don't accept Jesus as my saviour? If God is an entity with consciousness itself and not a creation force, what reasoning do you have for "him" not wanting me "back"?

This is a great question. However, before an answer can be given, we must first address the question of, what is "good"? By referring to yourself as a good person, you are implicitly admitting that there is an objective standard by which we are all measured (that is to say, there is a standard outside of ourselves that goes beyond personal preference or opinion that every person is held to). The question becomes, what is the basis of that standard? What is it that determines what is good, and what is not? For the Christian, we acknowledge that the basis of our morality is the nature and character of God. We know that rape and murder are wrong because we are made in God's image, and as such, we intrinsically understand that anything that deviates from God's character is "not good". To be put another way, God is the objective standard to which we can measure the quality of our actions.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart." -- Proverbs 21:2

The difficulty is that we as humans have a tendency to want to excuse the evil we do, while extolling what we consider our virtues. We look at ourselves as compared to others and say, "Well, I'm not nearly as bad as THEY are!". The problem is, if God's nature is the objective standard for goodness, then none of us fit the bill. A quick glanse at the 10 Commandmants is enough to convict any human being. And in fact, it's worse than that! God states that you don't even have to commit the sin, but just have it present in your heart to be found guilty of it. So if I lust after a woman, it's no different in God's eyes than if I had committed physical adultry with her.

Now, if God is a just, and Holy God (which He is), is he able to simply over look the "little" sins we commit? Well, no. Let's look at it another way. Imagine that I have committed a murder in cold blood. I'm guilty of the crime. I stand before the judge and proclaim, "Your Honor, I'm 33 years old, and I have never been in trouble with the law prior to this, and in my 33 years of living, this is the very first murder I have committed. As such, I believe that I should be set free." Would a good judge let me go free? No, because he is a good judge, he has to find me guilty and sentence me to my punishment. This is what happens when we stand before God. We actually are guilty.

This brings us to the crux of the issue:

what reasoning do you have for "him" not wanting me "back"?

Because of our guilt (sin), we find ourselves starting in a position as enemies of God (Colossians 1:21). However, it is because of God's character of love and grace that he does want us back. Yet, because he is perfect and Holy in his justice, he can't simply overlook our guilt (sin). This is where Jesus comes in.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." -- John 3:16

Justice must be administered on behalf of our sin. To satisfy this, Jesus came and lived a perfect, sinless (innocent), life. Being that he himself had no sin, he paid the debt we have incurred when he died in our place on the cross. He had no debt of his own to pay, but instead took the burden of our debt upon himself to purchase our freedom.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -- Romans 6:23

However, in order to receive this pardon, we must first go to Christ and accept it. But how do you receive a pardon if you are first unwilling to admit that you are guilty in the first place? When we suppress the knowledge of our guilt, we choose to ignore Jesus, believing instead that there is no need for a pardon. This is why if we deny Christ, we can not be reconciled with God. We have refused to accept the pardon for our sin. God will not force you to love him, and he will not force you to accept the payment Jesus made on the cross. Unfortunately, as long as we are still stained with sin, we can not be in the presence of a Holy God. Just as darkness can not exist in the light, we can not stand before God while still guilty in our sin (John 3:18).

So what is the alternative? To acknowledge and admit we are sinners who are guilty. We have to admit that we do need a savior to release us from this debt we've incurred. To do that, we have to go to Christ and recognize that he did pay our ransom, and we want to receive his grace and forgiveness. It is here that we go from being an enemy of God, to being adopted as son's and daughter's of God (Ephesians 1:5)!

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." -- Romans 8:1

So, although we will always struggle with sin as long as we are in this mortal life, we find that God no longer sees us as guilty. He will never view you with disappointment or with reproach -- your debt (past, present, and future) has been paid by Jesus! So, where do we go from here? We pray, and talk with God, we read his Word which He gave to us in the Bible. In short, we begin starting a relationship with the Creator of the universe, of whom we can now call Father (Romans 8;15). And you won't do this alone. God's Holy Spirit will dwell within you. The same awesome power that brought forth existence, and rose Christ from the grave will live within you and guide you, and cry and out and pray for you on your behalf (Galatians 4:6). You will begin to gain a hint of the awesome size, and scope of love that God has for you.

Jesus provides a great illustration of this in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32). Just as the father drapes his once lost son in a robe, and places a ring of authority on his hand, and sends his servant to plan a tremendous celebration -- so too does God rejoice when we choose to return to Him.

You've made some additional comments which I found interesting, but I'll have to address them later (this went way longer than I anticipated!). You're asking some great questions, and I encourage you to continue looking for the answers. Contrary to what some may say, we are not called to blind faith, but to put our faith (trust) in a God who has and is constantly demonstrating why that faith is well placed in Him.

 

[legend166]

That's pretty much what I was going to say.

Spoiler

Except more Calvinistically, lol.

 

[mrbagdt]

I also disagree that we all start on the other side of the fence due to sin. God is just, and does not have everyone come into this world with a bunch of unforgivable sin.

is this a core tenet of islam?

It seems that you encountered a stumbling block that many Catholics I've met have faced, namely the institution of religion taking precedent over the relationship that God intends to have with us.

this was a problem that i had with the 'church' system for a long time in my life. through reading the bible, i realized that the church that Jesus created was very different than the image of a church that i had in my mind when i looked at churches today. that church was not a building, it was a MOVEMENT. i still believe that churches today play an important role and people are wrong if they believe that 'i can just do it on my own'. you just have to try and a church that is doing it right (easier said than done in my opinion).

 

[Jake Tower]

God is just, and does not have everyone come into this world with a bunch of unforgivable sin.

God is just. Our sinful nature is the result of our own fault, or own action. God is perfectly just. The wages of sin are death. God is also perfectly merciful. How to reconcile these facts? The penalty of death must be paid. And it was. By God himself. All who accept the sacrifice of the Lamb of God will have judgment for their sins passover them, forgiven in full. All the work necessary for salvation was done on the cross, by God himself.

 

[OttomanScribe]

is this a core tenet of islam?

Islam rejects the idea of original sin. Our primordial nature (like all creation) is acknowledgement of God.

God is just. Our sinful nature is the result of our own fault, or own action. God is perfectly just. The wages of sin are death. God is also perfectly merciful. How to reconcile these facts? The penalty of death must be paid. And it was. By God himself. All who accept the sacrifice of the Lamb of God will have judgment for their sins passover them, forgiven in full. All the work necessary for salvation was done on the cross, by God himself.

What action did I do that makes me in sin debt from the get go? There is no 'our' here, what you are talking about is the fall of Adam (alayhi salaam) somehow thrust upon newborn babies.

The Most Merciful does not need a son to give Mercy. He certainly does not need to commit a pantomime fake suicide to do so.

 

[Jake Tower]

What action did I do that makes me in sin debt from the get go?

The first sin you ever committed in your life, God knows when. You weren't born with a debt. You were born with a sinful nature.

There is no 'our' here, what you are talking about is the fall of Adam (alayhi salaam) somehow thrust upon newborn babies.

The Most Merciful does not need a son to give Mercy. He certainly does not need to commit a pantomime fake suicide to do so.

By one man are we fallen, by one Man are we restored.

 

[Dude Abides]

Islam rejects the idea of original sin. Our primordial nature (like all creation) is acknowledgement of God.


What action did I do that makes me in sin debt from the get go? There is no 'our' here, what you are talking about is the fall of Adam (alayhi salaam) somehow thrust upon newborn babies.

The Most Merciful does not need a son to give Mercy. He certainly does not need to commit a pantomime fake suicide to do so.

Do you believe Adam was an actual living person? Is this a widespread belief amongst Muslims?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Do you believe Adam was an actual living person? Is this a widespread belief amongst Muslims?

Adam (alayhis salaam) is a Prophet of God, yes he was an actual living person, as was his wife. The Muslims believe that the fall was the will of God, and inherent within the creation of humanity. God does not get surprised by things lol. It was also not something that was merely the province of the wife of Adam, together they made the choice, and Allah forgave them both.

The first sin you ever committed in your life, God knows when. You weren't born with a debt. You were born with a sinful nature.

That isn't how original sin works though is it.

By one man are we fallen, by one Man are we restored.

By God's will we are fallen, through God's Mercy we are saved. Men, especially bizarre God hybrids, don't come into it.

 

[Fedos]

Adam (alayhis salaam) is a Prophet of God, yes he was an actual living person, as was his wife. The Muslims believe that the fall was the will of God, and inherent within the creation of humanity. God does not get surprised by things lol. It was also not something that was merely the province of the wife of Adam, together they made the choice, and Allah forgave them both.

God wasn't surprised though. When he asked Adam and Eve where they were he was showing them what disobeying him had done to their fellowship. The Bible also says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. So God allowed Satan through the serpent to tempt Eve, knowing that they would partake of the forbidden fruit, and cause the fall, to the effect of his own mysterious providential will and divine purposes.

 

[Emwitus]

Oh, I don't mind answering, I just mentioned I won't debate anyone's responses as it's not fair to people in this thread. I'm no longer really a Christian by the fact I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour, so it's not fair for me to debate my opinion in a thread intended for Christians to discuss their faith. I am just curious on your thoughts and views on my questions. I also appreciate the answers you provide either way.

In terms of the answer to your question (this is just my experience and views, and I know does not apply to everyone within the Christianity "blanket", so excuse the blanket statements):

- Faith getting in the way of science. Science provides the knowable, faith provides knowledge in something current unknowing. When a faith tries to override science in something knowable is where I have an issue (i.e. Evolution vs Creationism). This holds us (humanity) back.

- As part of that, there is no way to know that one's faith is wrong, as there's no such thing as being wrong in faith unless concrete science overrides that faith. I don't like the denial of other peoples faith at the hand of another's own faith. This is an essential issue with most religions.

- That for me to be a Christian according to the Roman Catholic dogma (my birthed religion), I must attend Church and must follow their guidelines (or ask for forgiveness). I cannot just believe in God (and Jesus if I accepted him as my saviour), that I would need to believe in the Church also to be accepted as Christian (the concept of acceptance is another issue I have which relates to the statement above)

- Views on homosexuality (I'm personally straight but I accept another's lifestyle), contraception (this one is really holding us back, reducing the population growth rate is tantamount to a society's success in today's modern world. Look to Africa to see how this is hurting Humanity), science (discussed above), other views of faith (discussed above but even fractured further in their own faith), etc (non-progressive views)

I think a BIG part of faith is believing in things not seen. Once you have doubt and consequently luck faith then you technically seize to be a christian(A follower of christ). Another thing we are taught as christians is that God never changes....from everlasting to everlasting, his promises are the same, his commandments are the same and his love is the same.

 

[Emwitus]

Islam rejects the idea of original sin. Our primordial nature (like all creation) is acknowledgement of God.


What action did I do that makes me in sin debt from the get go? There is no 'our' here, what you are talking about is the fall of Adam (alayhi salaam) somehow thrust upon newborn babies.

The Most Merciful does not need a son to give Mercy. He certainly does not need to commit a pantomime fake suicide to do so.

God gave instructions to adam, telling him if you eat this fruit you will surely die. This was a curse. A curse not just to adam, but to the son of adam, man. Thus we are born into this curse. Cursed to toil this land, cursed to die. Not just adam and eve, but ALL Of THEIR SEED. This was a judgment made on a "law" given to adam. A law with a set punishment. Remember, he is just.The bible also records that God is not only just but loving. He gave the sons of adam a way out of sin by asking them to give a burnt offering to die in their place to ask for forgiveness. Later down the road, the prophets prophecied of a messiah that would come to take away the sins of the world. This messiah, God's only son, was sent as a sacrificial lamb, to die for our sins. This was done in place of the sacricifial offering that the israelites performed every time one went before God to ask for forgiveness. This does not give us a license to sin, but it does give us a pathway to God....we should also remember that God is not MOCKED/PUNKED. We can't ask for forgivness one day and sin the next and pretend THAT WE TRULY REPENTED in earnest. God sees the heart, knows our thoughts and if we are truly repentant, TRUTHFULLY REPENTANT. A christian will fall down in repentance before God and truly be save and changed.

 

[OttomanScribe]

God wasn't surprised though. When he asked Adam and Eve where they were he was showing them what disobeying him had done to their fellowship. The Bible also says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. So God allowed Satan through the serpent to tempt Eve, knowing that they would partake of the forbidden fruit, and cause the fall, to the effect of his own mysterious providential will and divine purposes.

THat doesn't seem like the narrative that Genesis presents. If you are saying that the 'fall' was God's intent from the beginning, then we are in agreement, but I don't know if you would get the same agreement from your Christian brothers.

Also where is the verse that it says Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? How does that work?

I think a BIG part of faith is believing in things not seen. Once you have doubt and consequently luck faith then you technically seize to be a christian(A follower of christ). Another thing we are taught as christians is that God never changes....from everlasting to everlasting, his promises are the same, his commandments are the same and his love is the same.

I believe in the unseen, I believe in the God of Abraham (alayhis salaam) a non-tripartite God, a monotheistic God, a God that does not change, that cannot be harmed and so cannot 'sacrifice'.

'Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. '

 

[Chaplain]

God is just. Our sinful nature is the result of our own fault, or own action. God is perfectly just. The wages of sin are death. God is also perfectly merciful. How to reconcile these facts? The penalty of death must be paid. And it was. By God himself. All who accept the sacrifice of the Lamb of God will have judgment for their sins passover them, forgiven in full. All the work necessary for salvation was done on the cross, by God himself.

100% accurate summary.

That isn't how original sin works though is it.

I do not think you understand how God judges each individual person.

THat doesn't seem like the narrative that Genesis presents. If you are saying that the 'fall' was God's intent from the beginning, then we are in agreement, but I don't know if you would get the same agreement from your Christian brothers.

God's intent was for man to remain without sin and in fellowship with Him. To say God wanted Adam/Eve to die, sin, and to destroy his creation, seems out of character for God who is Love as revealed to us in the Word of God.

Also where is the verse that it says Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? How does that work?

I think this article should answer your question.

I believe in the unseen, I believe in the God of Abraham (alayhis salaam) a non-tripartite God, a monotheistic God, a God that does not change, that cannot be harmed and so cannot 'sacrifice'.

Jesus said, "This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command."

So, you believe in a God who does not love then? Is that what you are saying?

'Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. '

Is Jesus Eternal?

 

[jdogmoney]

You know, it's really interesting to watch two people of different faiths have a discussion. Very illuminating. Carry on.

 

[Dude Abides]

Adam (alayhis salaam) is a Prophet of God, yes he was an actual living person, as was his wife. The Muslims believe that the fall was the will of God, and inherent within the creation of humanity. God does not get surprised by things lol. It was also not something that was merely the province of the wife of Adam, together they made the choice, and Allah forgave them both.

Interesting. Do Muslims believe that the snake and the trees and the garden were also actual things?

Also, do you believe Adam was created and we all descended from him or is there room for evolution?

 

[Fedos]

THat doesn't seem like the narrative that Genesis presents. If you are saying that the 'fall' was God's intent from the beginning, then we are in agreement, but I don't know if you would get the same agreement from your Christian brothers.

Also where is the verse that it says Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? How does that work?

Here is the scripture from the book of Revelation: 'All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.' Revelation 13: 8. God is omniscent, and being omniscent he knew that man was going to fall in the garden, and in eternity past the Son was commissioned to save mankind, by dying for the sins of the world and bearing the wrath of the Father on the cross.

 

[OttomanScribe]

On my phone now, will reply soon God willing I'll have time at work lol.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I do not think you understand how God judges each individual person.

Can't watch that, at work. Explain it?

God's intent was for man to remain without sin and in fellowship with Him. To say God wanted Adam/Eve to die, sin, and to destroy his creation, seems out of character for God who is Love as revealed to us in the Word of God.

So he was suprised when it happened?

I think this article should answer your question.

Explain it to me. Summarise. This isn't a website face off.

Jesus said, "This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command."

I don't believe that God can be harmed in any way. There is no way that God can be in a state of loss. Therefore the idea that God could 'lay down his life' is as bizarre as it is anthropomorphic.

So, you believe in a God who does not love then? Is that what you are saying?

Love is a strange word, certainly love is one of the words that describes him, however 'Merciful' is much more apt. Love can too easily imply some equality.

Is Jesus Eternal?

Again, in your own words. I don't think links are an appropriate reply to questions.

Interesting. Do Muslims believe that the snake and the trees and the garden were also actual things?

A talking snake is not mentioned in the Qur'an. The eating of the fruit was not the cause of the fall, nor was it what imparted knowledge of good and evil to humanity. They already knew of both.

Also, do you believe Adam was created and we all descended from him or is there room for evolution?

The two are not a dichotomy, even in evolutionary theory we all share two common ancestors. There is a scholarly discussion currently occurring amongst Muslim scholars in relation to evolution. The position of some is that it is impermissable to believe in any form. The position of others is that it is permissable to believe that it occurred in all cases save that of humanity (as long as one believes that Allah is the source of all cause and effect relationships). The position of others is that it is permissable to believe in all cases, again with the caveat that God is the source of all perceptions of cause and effect.

I am of the last group, though as there is no consensus I cannot claim that any above is the orthodox position, it is still very much an undecided position amongst the Ulema (scholars).

Here is the scripture from the book of Revelation: 'All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.' Revelation 13: 8. God is omniscent, and being omniscent he knew that man was going to fall in the garden, and in eternity past the Son was commissioned to save mankind, by dying for the sins of the world and bearing the wrath of the Father on the cross.

That doesn't sound very clear. Is this the orthodox position? That as God was the cause of the fall, he had the solution on hand, a somehow pre-crucified son?

 

[JGS]

Ottoman, I'm not interested at all in a Muslim vs. Christianity discussion so I've largely stayed out of it. I was just going to say that you are very good at explaining your beliefs and it's very appreciated. A large part of the problem in debating Christians is the certainty at which some (& I'll include myself) are in their beliefs even if they don't believe in one another's individual beliefs.

You asked some pretty decent questions so I was going to for my take on them since they are pretty different and some on the answers are not necessarily universal in thought..

So he was suprised when it happened?

Surprised would not be the apt word since he knew it was in the realm of possibility. This is not the same thing as destiny though. It was just the beginning of choice for man.

I don't believe that God can be harmed in any way. There is no way that God can be in a state of loss. Therefore the idea that God could 'lay down his life' is as bizarre as it is anthropomorphic.

This is definitely true in the physical sense. He can be at a loss emotionally &/or strategically. The fact that things are not as he wants them to be now is indication of that. Being at a loss isn't the same as losing though since the losing he has faced is regarding the choices of his creation (Whether human or angelic)

Love is a strange word, certainly love is one of the words that describes him, however 'Merciful' is much more apt. Love can too easily imply some equality.

Love encompasses everything else including mercy. Love for his followers explains the adverse judgement of his & their enemies. Love for justice explains why imperfections prevent eternal life without an equivalent sacrifice. Principled love drive a lot of what God does. Mercy is just an extention of it .

That doesn't sound very clear. Is this the orthodox position? That as God was the cause of the fall, he had the solution on hand, a somehow pre-crucified son?

That verse is translated differently across Bibles. Even the quoted verse acknowledes an alternate view which appears far more correct.

b.Revelation 13:8 Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain

As mentioned, God didn't cause the fall, but he did have a solution in place from the get go that punished the wicked (The context of that scripture) that never altered.

Basically from the founding of the world, God had a standard in place that prevented the wicked to survive. This included Adam, but does not include those written in the slain lamb's (Jesus) book of life