LaserBuddha
Member
MFer you almost got me.
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Christopher Columbus was one of history's greatest monsters
- Thread starter Sho_Nuff82
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Hey hey hey guys... you have to understand, Columbus was a man of the times!! I fucking hate that passive-aggressive apologist bullshit. You never see that lame excuse given for anything but green-lighting slavery and colonization here. You would never see someone excuse Anti-semitism in the 40s... I doubt some fools 400yrs from now will look back on US misogyny and rape culture and excuse the US Army and Colleges sweeping rape under the rug on some "but you have to understand the times bro!" shit. Disgusting.
By the way... 80s/90s NY schooler checking in and yeah, Columbus was all positive in school, was a hero, and "discovered America". I even saw a poster in Court this year hailing him a "hero". Had a discussion w/co-workers and the most they would go was that Columbus was morally "grey" and necessary to advance civilization lol.
I met some guy who's son came back home with his test. He got the "who discovered America" question wrong (the correct answer for the test was Columbus). The dad went back to the school and trolled those asshats, telling them they were factually wrong and an embarrassment. They changed everyone's score for the better who got that answer "wrong".
By the way... 80s/90s NY schooler checking in and yeah, Columbus was all positive in school, was a hero, and "discovered America". I even saw a poster in Court this year hailing him a "hero". Had a discussion w/co-workers and the most they would go was that Columbus was morally "grey" and necessary to advance civilization lol.
I met some guy who's son came back home with his test. He got the "who discovered America" question wrong (the correct answer for the test was Columbus). The dad went back to the school and trolled those asshats, telling them they were factually wrong and an embarrassment. They changed everyone's score for the better who got that answer "wrong".
Columbus Day... brought to you by dat White Supremacy! It's absolutely disgusting.
PinkCrayon
Member
Believe it or not, they landed in North America five hundred years before Columbus.
There's no standard US public school curriculum. It's set by states and local school boards.
This kind of thing varies a lot from place to place. I feel like I learned a decent amount in school about most of the dark parts of American history, but I hardly knew anything about the extent of Columbus's atrocities towards the natives.
Education is such a diverse institution in America that I'd believe almost any anecdote about a particular place's curriculum. Sweeping generalizations towards any extreme probably won't be accurate.
lastplayed
Member
C'mon, Moxica was the real monster.
I wish this holiday were obliterated. NY Italians would be fighting it kicking and screaming though. The thing is, is there not a more honorable Italian we could replace the holiday with? All these monsters get white washed like a muvugga and worshipped, but God forbid someone reveres the Black Panther Party or Malcolm X... then a line gets crossed!
ebullientprism
Member
Fucking hell that is messed up. What an utter asshole.
Eric the Red
Member
For me in California, in elementary school Columbus, Magellan, Cortez, etc as were all adventurous explorers to sort of look up to. Pretty much positive figures. Middle school and high school we learned about the real historical figure he was and the atrocities these conquistadors committed.
I almost feel like in a lot of ways the American school system builds up a false narrative of history in elementary school. Then slightly pulls back the cover in high school. Then finally pulls the covers off in college. Then re-perverts it in the media thanks to infotainment channels, pop culture, movies and partisan politics.
Is it this way in other countries?
I think it certainly has aided in American ignorance in this country though for sure.
Is it this way in other countries?
I think it certainly has aided in American ignorance in this country though for sure.
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I can't remember being told any of this shit. Well maybe I was told and it was too shocking for my young mind, but I doubt that.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
As a american, which I was never taught that Columbus did these things, this isnt true, We def do not like our past, and things like the indian removal act is agreed by everybody to be a really assholeish and dickish thing to do, something we arent proud of at all, and we dont try to forget it. Though we should probably do more for it.
Anthropologists and historians have, will, and will always do so. It's also the more liberal way of thinking, as it allows you to view a person as an element to his environment and you remove bias from you about your own society to better understand an individual.
This is to not say anything about Columbus - I never researched him, nor much of the early mercantile era - but the idea of understanding a person by the prevailing thoughts of the day is an average concept that is not going anywhere and with good reason.
Yeah, I don't think is any way that such behavior could be rationalized. That shit was not normal in Europe. There was no tradition of child sex slavery. Only a human driven entirely by greed or sadism would promote that.
If you take a look at history throughout the world, humans have been heartless pillaging murderers and slavers pretty much in all of known history. I wouldn't feel particularily odd.
Speak for yourself, I'd exist anyway.
Seriously, what the hell is that supposed to mean?
WrenchNinja
Member
But he seemed like such a nice guy when I saw him in this
It's never ever talked about. We never talk about how much we fucked over the native americans. We don't even think about the Native Americans. They're just not talked about in almost any context. They're forgotten.
Well I'm talking about history unfolding in such a way that everything that is now is a very precise result of it. You know like the Simpsons, Homer kills a bug and the future changes drastically? That sort of thing.
Nemesis121
Member
Unfortunately they don't teach this in school, most kids growing up think he's a great explorer when he's was nothing more than fucking monster, i learn truth in 11th grade when my English teach open our eyes to this monster, we had to do a study on him most kids in my class couldn't believe this shit they read..
Even slight changes more than half a millennium ago could lead to massive historical changes. I don't see why anyone would feel odd about it.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Chances are I wouldn't exist right now if my dad had sneezed an extra time at some point before I was born.
Sickboy007
Member
Amerigo Vespucci, Cabot or Vernazzano would be the best candidates.
It's a shame Giuseppe Garibaldi declined a Major General's commission in the U.S. Army during the Civil War, but he would only accept if Lincoln declared the war's objective to be the abolition of slavery.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yeah the societies he decimated would willingly sacrifice 1000's - 10000's of people to consecrate a building or celebrate a passing monarch. Through the modern lens they were despicable evil people, drugging young children and leaving them to die from exposure, massacre of thousands of people for religious ceremonies.
many places
Member
why should white children feel bad for something they had absolutely nothing to do with? columbus wasn't a saint but i dont see how shaming white kids helps to bring attention to what columbus did.
The fact that Columbus day is on the calendar is really quite disturbing. Sure he brought Europeans over....but why the fuck would anyone celebrate him, and by proxy, his methods? Should African Americans celebrate the day their ancestors were dragged over to the America's as slaves cuz now they are Americans?
They definitely leave these horrid details out in American education .
They definitely leave these horrid details out in American education .
I agree that other cultures who are prosperous due to subjugating others (Arabs, Han Chinese, and Hindi-speakers) should also recognize that their privilege comes from violence. But that's not relevant right now. There's no reason why a kid who is, say, a mix of Irish and Iranian should identify with an Italian explorer like Columbus. But the fact of the matter is that, as a white kid, he is benefiting from the crimes committed or begun by Columbus and his contemporaries. And that after a certain age (13, maybe?), children should be taught this.
While people have an undeniable advantage in practically every industry and job market. To not say this outright to students is, frankly, dishonest.
It's really the only thing they're remembered for, so they take pride in it. Because the killings happened seven hundred years ago, nobody is offended.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Everyone alive today is here as a direct result of centuries of barbaric murderous ancestors. White Europeans weren't an homogenous group there were plenty of individual societies that were decimated or subjugated by others. Same with every other population. I do agree that if you are teaching Columbus then you should touch on the darker side of his legacy.
Genocide had widespread acceptance in the 1940s?
Edit: I guess I should say genocide of citizens of the core government. I don't think Western powers were pro-genocide at that point in their colonies, but they probably didn't go out of their way to prevent brutality/famine, either.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Let's not even go into how many children today still go through school learning about how a bunch of Pilgrims just wanted to worship God so they came to America and there a bunch of Friendly Indians including Squanto all helped them out of the kindness of their hearts and then they had Thanksgiving. Also, the Mayflower Compact, so the second the Pilgrim's funny boots touched the ground they began to turn America into a free land of democracy and religious tolerance.
Then... nnnnnnnnnnnothing happened with the Native Americans in North America for another 200 years except the French and Indian War, or whichever group was living in your state at the time of first settlement if you're learning state history, and a bunch of them getting sick but that was an accident except for maybe the blankets thing! It was only after all of that that manifest destiny and the Trail of Tears and all that happened, but that was in the 1800s next to slavery and slavery doesn't happen anymore so all that's in the past too!
Then... nnnnnnnnnnnothing happened with the Native Americans in North America for another 200 years except the French and Indian War, or whichever group was living in your state at the time of first settlement if you're learning state history, and a bunch of them getting sick but that was an accident except for maybe the blankets thing! It was only after all of that that manifest destiny and the Trail of Tears and all that happened, but that was in the 1800s next to slavery and slavery doesn't happen anymore so all that's in the past too!
Hmm that's true.
Literally every historian and post-modernist use that "lame excuse" for pretty much everyone. Trying to moralize people in history is an anachronism, and it pretty much achieves nothing. What is the point in declaring a person a monster instead of declaring his actions monstrous? What does that achieve?
Also everyone saying he didn't "discover" America seems to be trying to be deliberately obtuse.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The perspective of that bit of the book (as a prelude to the Columbus chapter) is that her life story is taught as this amazing bootstrap fable to American children...and then it ignores the last 50-60 years of her life where she was committed to financial and social equality.
Hell, people barely talk about MLK's late push for class equality. Because it's hard to reconcile these postage stamp heroes with a world where "socialism" is a 4 letter word.
The point is, distilling history to hero worship does us no good. It promotes ignorance and misunderstanding. I had no idea that the US under Woodrow Wilson basically annexed half the Caribbean and invaded the Soviet Union in an effort to snuff out communism. With that perspective, their cold war mistrust of us makes a little more sense.
Similarly, when I hear/read someone saying "the republicans freed the slaves 150 years ago, why do lazy blacks bitch about them being racists?" it makes me want to vomit with rage.
Hero worship or monster condemnation both basically operate under the great man theory which was more or less thrown out by historians quite some time ago. It's just a lot harder to teach the more social sciencey type of history to children. Since most people don't interact with history at any other time in their life they think that's what it revolves around.
Red Mage
Member
Columbus was a bad dude, but I don't think he was the first to come up with that idea...
Indeed, another fun fact about Columbus: He didn't do it trying to prove the world was round. Most educated people and the majority of sailors knew it was round, and they even had a general idea of the size. The problem was that they didn't know about the Americas. They thought it was nothing but ocean until you hit India.
So why did Columbus have so much trouble getting a sponorship? Because Columbus thought the world was smaller than it actually is. Everyone figured he would die of starvation before he ever reached India and didn't want to waste money and lives on account of it.
vas_a_morir
Banned
I think 99% of Americans know that European settlers killed and sometimes enslaved indigenous populations, and currently have more advantages than black people who are still recovering as a community from centuries of explicit and overt systematic oppression. Acknowledging it isn't the problem. The problem is, once you understand this... now what? If a white person denies it, trust me, they are being rhetorical or they have never actually been to school or seen a television show.
I mean, shit... I went to school in one of those terrifying 'red states' you hear so much about (used to be a blue state at that time, though.), and my 4th grade history teacher talked nothing but ill shit about Columbus. We had black speakers come to my school, tell us to sit against a wall and placed a heavy chain on our legs, in the dark, as they told us the horrors of the Slave trade. Where did you guys go to school where this wasn't discussed?
AbsolutBro
Member
I remember my 7th grade history teacher doing a similar thing for the history of Native Americans. She first explained that half the room wasn't usable because of various work being done, so sit on one side. Part way through the class she told people to move to seats in a smaller portion of the room; those that couldn't find seats were literally escorted from the classroom. The portions of the room became smaller and smaller until she was shouting at students "TOO LATE, GET OUT!". Keep in mind, she did this at the very START of a lesson plan that lasted for about 1/4 of the year, so we had no real idea what was going on.
Given this was a lesson I had 20+ years ago, it should be obvious the lesson left an impact.
I actually had a very different experience. In my elementary school, in a suburb of Kansas City, I was never taught that Christopher Columbus was anything other than a hero. We learned that many English and Spanish colonists treated the Native Americans badly, but that was it. We learned that slavery was awful, but we weren't taught the specifics. Until middle school, I thought that Christopher Columbus was entirely well-intentioned, and never meant to cause so much violence.
After I moved to South Florida, I was given a very different, much more explicit lesson on slavery and Columbus. But the modern difficulties of Black people were usually just mentioned in a hushed tone, or during some kind of open discussion.
The only myth I see being perpetrated here is that American kids don't learn about the vast evils of European settlers in school. If Columbus gets off easy, it's only because other than the "discovery," he didn't have much of an effect on what became the United States. The myth that Columbus wanted to prove the world was round is something you might hear in kindergarten, not in your US history classes later on.
bengraven
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9q6HtcgWRA
http://www.dltk-kids.com/crafts/columbus/
He's quite seriously an American hero. Our capital is literally named after him (District of Columbia).
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Reading the op again, its like a list off of horrid almost comicy villainlly, like every bad thing you could do to another human being he did it! Stole, murdered, inslaved, tortured, and the cherry in top, was raping children to boot!
Christopher Columbus, I hope you burned in hell you miserable piece of shit.
Christopher Columbus, I hope you burned in hell you miserable piece of shit.
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