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Circumcision.. What do Evolutionary Biologists/Naturalists/Darwinists think?

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Strangelove77

Strangelove77

Member
just ask this scientician...

uYx0pbG.jpg
 
R

ReplacementPelican

Member
It's hilarious that people are saying 'let them decide later' when there's no reason to do this at all except in exceptional medical circumstance.

It's all dead people's baggage, let it go. They just didn't want you to wank.
 
H

Harmen

Member
I was circumcised when I was young due to medical reasons (my skin was in the way too much). Can't say it feels off but I also have to wonder why you would want it for your son if not religious or medical. Just because? Because then I say no and let him decide over his own body when he grows up.
 
T

The Wart

Member
Polioliolio said:
I'm expecting a healthy baby boy soon, and there's one question we're not yet sure about...
To Circumcise, or not to Circumcise?

Now, I know the internet is a raging battleground for a war on circumcision.

I'm unsure what to think, and I can see reasons to justify either choice... I myself am circumcised, but I don't think that alone a good reason to follow through with the procedure for my son. My partner leans toward being pro-circumcision, as an older family member of hers had once said about the topic, that he wished he was, but she seems open to consideration if the evidence is there.

Anyway, I'm not looking to start another battle here. I don't care about your Mom's opinion, or Joe Schmoe's thoughts, or any given circumcised or uncircumcised dude. I've seen the general arguments from both sides.
I'm leaning against it slightly, if just because it seems like an odd thing to do to an organ that has evolved functionally to its current state after some billions of years of sexual refinement, but we also live in a drastically different age where survival/reproduction is taken for granted.. maybe there are some unnecessary relics in our history that are still with us? I'm inclined to think not.. but still..


To those of you who are familiar with natural history, biology, or are educated Darwinists and students of evolution, what are your thoughts and why? If you're knowledgeable in the opinions of teachers or other scientists, I'd also be curious to hear their thoughts or words.


Again, I think, by default, I would have to say, just leave the poor penis alone, but I want to hear the words of respected scientists and those educated about biology, evolution, and I suppose the opinions of those in medical fields could be valuable too. That's what I hope to see here. If you want to share your opinion and you wouldn't put yourself into that category, make sure you add some evidence either way.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you think an evolutionary biologist would have special insight on this topic. Are you... appealing to nature? Human behavior, including circumcision, is just as natural and "evolved" as our morphology. The theory of natural selection suggests that in general traits will often suit their environments, but by itself that tells you literally nothing about how any specific trait fares in comparison to some other possible trait (here, circumcised vs uncircumcised penis) in a specific environment. For that, you need domain-specific expertise.

The relevant expertise for a medical procedure is that of a medical professional. AFAIK field is split. My mom is strongly opposed. You didn't want my mom's opinion but she's a family practice doctor so you're getting it anyway!
 
R

Relceroi

Neo Member
Barring some medical condition that absolutely requires it, I know of no reason why circumcision should be considered as an option before the individual in question can make the decision on their own. Even then the only rational reason to have the operation is medical. That circumcision actually is an option that parents can choose at will is absurd and has no rational basis whatsoever.
 
A

Atomic Playboy

Member
darscot said:
Decide later on what are you guys on, there is significant pain factor doing this later on.
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Which of course infants are immune to. You can rip off a baby's arm and it'll grow right back...

The fuck kind of logic is it to say "this pain would be unbearable for a grown man, let's do it on them when they're the weakest they will ever be, for a procedure that isn't even considered medically necessary for 99.9% of cases"? It really hurt when I got my tongue pierced, so I'm getting little Johnny's done in the maternity ward. That's logical right?
 
L

Lucumo

Member
Harmen said:
I was circumcised when I was young due to medical reasons (my skin was in the way too much). Can't say it feels off but I also have to wonder why you would want it for your son if not religious or medical. Just because? Because then I say no and let him decide over his own body when he grows up.
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Medical reasons are the only reasons that matter. Doing it to someone else just because of religion or other bs is awful (why is it even allowed at all?).
 
M

MadJackChurchill

Banned
Dude Abides said:
There's no good reason to have your son circumcised. It's a religious norm that became a cultural norm. There are marginal health benefits but if your son wants them he can get it when he's old enough to understand the choice.
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Barring actual medical necessity, which does exist, yeah I agree.
 
M

Madness

Member
Don't cut a piece of your sons anatomy off permanently for appearance reasons. Aside from religious aspects, circumcision is a modern phenomenon that has all but declined in every major advanced countrt except for the US. And because it has declined, those in favor of it use things like some obscure medical studies done in African villages with high HIV rates of how it may potentially stave off HIV.

But let your son decide. You are unnecessarily creating a risk for no reason besides cosmetic. Someone in this thread do it because it looks gross. How stupid is that? Have you ever met a circumcised guy who enjoys condoms as well as going bare skin? Why? Because he has lost almost all sensitivity in his penis because the skin has had to harden up. It is why they need ribbed condoms, lube or need girls to be on birth control so they don't need to do it. As for whether foreskin will be tight or phimosis, let your son discover and you ber your ass he will. He will easily start to retract his foreskin when he masturbates. When he is an adult and horny it will naturally slide back. And yet if he needs a circumcision, he can still get one of his own volition.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
Dude Abides said:
There's no good reason to have your son circumcised. It's a religious norm that became a cultural norm. There are marginal health benefits but if your son wants them he can get it when he's old enough to understand the choice.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Plus "oh no, he might have to suffer a couple days to a week if he decides to do it as an adult" is such a minor con IMO.
 
D

darscot

Member
Atomic Playboy said:
Which of course infants are immune to. You can rip off a baby's arm and it'll grow right back...

The fuck kind of logic is it to say "this pain would be unbearable for a grown man, let's do it on them when they're the weakest they will ever be, for a procedure that isn't even considered medically necessary for 99.9% of cases"? It really hurt when I got my tongue pierced, so I'm getting little Johnny's done in the maternity ward. That's logical right?
Click to expand...

Like I posted above my son expressed pain for about 5 seconds. Both friends that had it done due to accidental mishap spent a week in hospital with tubes draining out of their junk.
 
M

Mechanized

Member
Why is genital mutilation of males acceptable in today's society? It's horrifying. How do all you pro-circumcision people feel about female circumcision? It's a barbaric practice on either gender.
 
M

Makki

Member
darscot said:
Like I posted above my son expressed pain for about 5 seconds. Both friends that had it done due to accidental mishap spent a week in hospital with tubes draining out of their junk.
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You could take this approach to several medical procedures then based on what ifs. Go ahead and take the kid's tonsils out, remove the nails from his toes, have his hair laser removed so he doesnt suffer the pain of hair loss shame, take off his apendix!
 
V

Vincent Grayson

Member
I feel like there just isn't a justification for this from an ethical perspective.

Ignoring any discussion about norms, religion, and possible medical reasons, I just don't see a justification for a painful and elective procedure on a human child.
 
S

SgtCobra

Member
I need to read on this sometime why some of you are supporting circumcision. If this is only about the build up of smegma then I really wonder if some of those men know how to wash their own goddamn penis.. Other than that being circumsized is not something that is really common over here other than on Muslim men (Europe)
 
D

darscot

Member
Makki said:
You could take this approach to several medical procedures then based on what ifs. Go ahead and take the kid's tonsils out, remove the nails from his toes, have his hair laser removed so he doesnt suffer the pain of hair loss shame, take off his apendix!
Click to expand...

To each their own, if I was confident my son wouldn't be all ashamed about his gear if he hurt it I wouldn't have done it. Both guys I knew were all embarrassed and didn't want to say anything and waited till a minor injury was an infected mess. Just societies bullshit but people are affected by it. The whole taboo around sex is silly but it does exist. People don't have issues with toes or appendix. It's not easy to tell someone "I was getting a handy behind the bleachers and I think little Sally tore my foreskin"
 
F

fireflame

Member
A specialist in urology tried to get me to circumcision and advised me to at least keep it with sforeskin pulled back when i had a pain issue(that happened to not be related to it at all) arguing that a whole civilization was doing it. I felt ill at ease during the interview and ver saw it again, learnt later that he was an anthipatic person who had issues with many people. Even worsei could got additional issues if i had listened to him

I feel those questions are really case per case situation and no doctor should try to force decision it especially when there is no objective medical reason.
 
A

Atomic Playboy

Member
darscot said:
Like I posted above my son expressed pain for about 5 seconds. Both friends that had it done due to accidental mishap spent a week in hospital with tubes draining out of their junk.
Click to expand...

What kind of accidental mishap ends in circumcision? I'm just curious what activities I should start avoiding.

But it sounds like your friends had it done out of medical necessity. Did your son? Did you have it done on him because you think penises are more attractive when they dress down? What if your son disagrees with that assessment? There's no real recourse to get it back. Obviously you have to make a lot of important decisions regarding your children's health, but cutting off a part for aesthetic reasons is... well, it's the exact same shit we refer to as "primitive" when other cultures do it with other body parts. What makes circumcision enlightened compared to lip plates or neck rings or feet binding?
 
C

CrocMother

Banned
I wonder how many people get circumcised because the parents don't even think about it and the Dr does it without even asking?
 
F

fireflame

Member
Serious question related to the subject, do some of you have issues to pee with the foreskin pulled back? I t is very exhausting for me to try and i cannot do it properly if i remove skin.
 
D

darscot

Member
Atomic Playboy said:
What kind of accidental mishap ends in circumcision? I'm just curious what activities I should start avoiding.

But it sounds like your friends had it done out of medical necessity. Did your son? Did you have it done on him because you think penises are more attractive when they dress down? What if your son disagrees with that assessment? There's no real recourse to get it back. Obviously you have to make a lot of important decisions regarding your children's health, but cutting off a part for aesthetic reasons is... well, it's the exact same shit we refer to as "primitive" when other cultures do it with other body parts. What makes circumcision enlightened compared to lip plates or neck rings or feet binding?
Click to expand...

Had nothing to do with religion or aesthetics, It had to do with visiting two friends in hospital one was getting a hand job and the chick ripped it somehow and he didn't speak up for way too long. The other took a slapshot and just pinched it in his jock and again kept his mouth shut wanted to play and thought it would just get better. Boys are dumb as posts at that age.
 
C

ced

Member
I agree with you all, but I really want to know what you all would do when it comes to your baby.

I debated it with my ex wife and lost, but I think I gave up because I thought there was too much of a stigma against uncut penis's in the US. I didn't want to my kid to have sexual issues etc growing up.

I was arguing for uncut.
 
N

NewDust

Member
darscot said:
Like I posted above my son expressed pain for about 5 seconds. Both friends that had it done due to accidental mishap spent a week in hospital with tubes draining out of their junk.
Click to expand...

Let me guess... They tried to yank each other off, but someone decided it would be a nice prank to replace the lube with superglue?


Also, OP, don't do it.
 
P

Phased

Member
Frankie Williamson said:
Most women don't give a shit.
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This hasn't been my experience in North America at least.

Every girl I've been with that I've had this conversation with has said uncut penises look weird. It's all about where you were raised and what you grew up with as a norm, but in NA at least I've found most women indeed do give a shit
 
DrunkandDrunker

DrunkandDrunker

Member
Not a scientist, don't know how well this study holds up in the scientific community but it might be a thing to consider since pain was brought up.
Are There Long-Term Consequences of Pain in Newborn or Very Young Infants?

Finally, studies reveal that lasting changes in pain sensitivity with the early experience of pain have been found in full-term infants as well. Using a prospective cohort design in males, one study found that facial pain-score coding from videotape recordings at four- or six-month routine vaccination was related to circumcision status as well as pain treatment for the procedure (Taddio, Katz, Ilersich, & Koren, 1997). In particular, a significant linear trend of increasing facial pain scores during immunization emerged from uncircumcised (lowest) to circumcised infants with topical lidocaine-prilocaine cream (mid) to those who were circumcised with placebo (highest). Thus, research on rat pups, preterm human infants, and full-term infants all show that the introduction of early pain has long-term effects on the development of pain processing.
Click to expand...

Physiologic studies in animals indicate that very early pain experiences may have more than immediate consequences in infancy. Ongoing lowered pain thresholds in the injured area indicate that changes occur in the still-developing spinal cord. Early stress may lead to a reduced immune system response, resulting in consequences such as delayed wound healing and potentially an increased susceptibility to infection. Increased pain sensitivity, decreased immune system functioning, increased avoidance behavior, and social hypervigilance are all possible outcomes of untreated pain in early infancy.

Although an individual may not preserve a conscious memory of an early painful event, it is recorded elsewhere in the body, as evidenced by the previously presented long-term outcomes. Multiple procedures in the preterm and low- to extremely low-birth-weight infant, as well as “routine” newborn medical procedures (from heel sticks to circumcision), may alter infant development. The implication is that infant pain should be avoided when possible and, when necessary, assessed and treated at least as diligently as adult pain. Maternal touch should be facilitated, especially in infants subjected to painful procedures for any ameliorating effects.
Click to expand...
 
Z

Zaru

Member
People who think circumcision outside of urgent medical reasons has any fucking place in this world absolutely baffle me. So glad I live in a country where it's a rare thing.
 
S

Sheroking

Member
The problem is so many people think it's a small issue, or a preference thing and that whatever minor aesthetic or hygiene benefits there are justify it.

They don't.

Anywhere between 70-120 babies die in the US every year from complications of the procedure. It DOES cause them extreme pain and anguish. It DOES NOT have a meaningful hygienic benefit, as long as the child learns to retract his foreskin and wash his glans.

Phased said:
This hasn't been my experience in North America at least.

Every girl I've been with that I've had this conversation with has said uncut penises look weird. It's all about where you were raised and what you grew up with as a norm, but in NA at least I've found most women indeed do give a shit
Click to expand...

Circumcision is a lot less common in Canada than it is in America.

I have only had the experience you're describing once, with an American girl.

So I wouldn't say "North America".
 
S

Seesaw15

Member
Phased said:
This hasn't been my experience in North America at least.

Every girl I've been with that I've had this conversation with has said uncut penises look weird. It's all about where you were raised and what you grew up with as a norm, but in NA at least I've found most women indeed do give a shit
Click to expand...

Just pull back the foreskin when you're having sex. Penis looks identical to a circumcised one.
 
H

HawksWinStanley

Member
Phased said:
This hasn't been my experience in North America at least.

Every girl I've been with that I've had this conversation with has said uncut penises look weird. It's all about where you were raised and what you grew up with as a norm, but in NA at least I've found most women indeed do give a shit
Click to expand...

Same. Any time ladies chimed in when we had that conversation it was a pretty unanimous thumbs down on uncut dongs.
 
G

GamerSoul

Member
I'm honestly thinking of going through with it because I can't pull back the foreskin much. It's a medical condition from what I've read. It has been this way my whole life, so I haven't fully seen my penis yet. We've been through so much, and I think it's time we have a proper introduction to each other. Lol
 
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