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[NickFire]

Leading up to the 2016 election, and all throughout 2017, I saw countless claims on the internet that entering the country illegally is not a crime. Well, now even CNN admits that entering the country illegally is in fact a crime punishable by six months in prison. "It has long been a misdemeanor federal offense to be caught illegally entering the US, punishable by up to six months in prison, but the administration has not always referred everyone caught for prosecution. Those apprehended were swiftly put into immigration proceedings and, unless they met the threshold to pursue a valid asylum claim, can be quickly deported from the country."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/poli...er-prosecutions-families-separated/index.html

I don't mean to downplay the plight of people who risk crossing a desert to find a better home. As a christian I completely understand why people argue for amnesty and I do not fault anyone for having a heart and compassion. But I am beyond sick of seeing people make up false claims to suggest that people trusting their common sense are either stupid or racist, and this is one such issue. It's almost comical because I believe what happened is one person probably pointed out that overstaying a visa does not make you a criminal necessarily, and then the masses were incapable of understanding the nuance between overstaying and entering without inspection and just decided that anyone who claimed entering illegally was a crime was either dumb or a racist.

 

[TrainedRage]

Illegal things are illegal? No. I don't believe that.

 

[crisdecuba]

I tend to live on the left side of the news world, but I never came across this talking point (seriously - this is the first I'm hearing about it). Were you seeing this from a news organization or from some facebook / twitter thing?

 

[gohepcat]

I tend to live on the left side of the news world, but I never came across this talking point (seriously - this is the first I'm hearing about it). Were you seeing this from a news organization or from some facebook / twitter thing?

I just assume he has a fever. I've never heard this talking point.

The internet was a mistake.

 

[Composer]

Never heard of this talking point. This is made up or possibly said by 1 person and clearly not indicative of anything.

 

[n0razi]

Is this really a talking point? Seems like reaching

 

[Straight Edge]

Never heard of this.

 

[luigimario]

This was a far left talking point? Maybe a little less breitbart/alex jones and a little more ......literally anything else....

 

[NickFire]

I saw this claim constantly, but primarily reddit, news site comment sections, etc. It was generally along the lines of being here illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal offense, so anyone claiming the illegal aliens were criminals were stupid.

 

[12Goblins]

Never heard of this

 

[hammysaurusrex]

That's nice, but you'd have a stronger case if you could actually provide evidence for your claim. For example, the thread about the backlash to that dumb Amy Schumer movie has some credit because one can actually read the editorial where the opinion was espoused. In contrast, "I read a bunch of dumb things on the internet" is something anyone can say after spending 5 minutes anywhere on the internet.

 

[AgentP]

I tend to live on the left side of the news world, but I never came across this talking point (seriously - this is the first I'm hearing about it). Were you seeing this from a news organization or from some facebook / twitter thing?

Seriously, never heard off this manufactured drama. I think people who get their news from Drudge and stuff loose perspective of what the mainstream knows and doesn't know (or claim). No doubt there is truth here, but it is probably some insignificant detail on something most people don't care.

 

[EviLore]

I saw this claim constantly, but primarily reddit, news site comment sections, etc. It was generally along the lines of being here illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal offense, so anyone claiming the illegal aliens were criminals were stupid.

Yeah, this was 100% the position on off-topic post-election and it was taken as fact by the vast majority of the board, the one Correct Position or you were an alt-right evil person, etc. I haven't done enough independent research on the subject to comment at this time though.

 

[Autoignition]

Also never heard anyone claim this, not even here post-election. There was a reason why Obama was considered the "Deporter in Chief." He had legal power and right to do it. A moral right is a completely different discussion, though.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Short memory spans here.

 

[Sàmban]

Sensational, overblown thread title that focuses on shitty partisanship instead of just reporting an issue? Check.

“The left” didn’t do shit. Some dumb people said something dumb. Can we just call it so? Can we do that gaf? Can we just call dumb things dumb instead this shitty tribal feces fight about “da left libtards” vs “da right conservatards” ??

CAN.WE.???

 

[EricTheRed]

delete my account please

 

[kunonabi]

Old gaf and resetera use this argument quite frequently and my real life left friends do too. Its not uncommon at all.

 

[NickFire]

Sensational, overblown thread title that focuses on shitty partisanship instead of just reporting an issue? Check.

“The left” didn’t do shit. Some dumb people said something dumb. Can we just call it so? Can we do that gaf? Can we just call dumb things dumb instead this shitty tribal feces fight about “da left libtards” vs “da right conservatards” ??

CAN.WE.???

Thread title says far left, not left. And I think its important to point out when political actors use loose terminology to run a narrative that isn't true, and this was one of them during the campaign and after from my recollection. What I recall is that with this issue people were drip fed information such as "staying in the country after illegally entering is not a crime" and "overstaying a visa is not a crime", with the detail that every person who jumped the border did in fact commit a crime, left to the footnotes or sections of the story that don't get much notice. Then the story festers, and suddenly the 49.5% of the country who supported the R candidate is racist when they really, by and large, just didn't want to reward criminal conduct. Again though, this is not an indictment of people wanting a better life. I am just incredibly salty at the role I believe the media has played in fracturing this country. And IMO, until people understand how this crap happens we will never get to the place where we both want the country to be, which is being able to agree to disagree.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Sensational, overblown thread title that focuses on shitty partisanship instead of just reporting an issue? Check.

“The left” didn’t do shit. Some dumb people said something dumb. Can we just call it so? Can we do that gaf? Can we just call dumb things dumb instead this shitty tribal feces fight about “da left libtards” vs “da right conservatards” ??

CAN.WE.???

The "left" is not the same thing as the "far-left".

Edit: beaten

 

[Autoignition]

Thread title says far left, not left. And I think its important to point out when political actors use loose terminology to run a narrative that isn't true, and this was one of them during the campaign and after from my recollection. What I recall is that with this issue people were drip fed information such as "staying in the country after illegally entering is not a crime" and "overstaying a visa is not a crime", with the detail that every person who jumped the border did in fact commit a crime, left to the footnotes or sections of the story that don't get much notice. Then the story festers, and suddenly the 49.5% of the country who supported the R candidate is racist when they really, by and large, just didn't want to reward criminal conduct. Again though, this is not an indictment of people wanting a better life. I am just incredibly salty at the role I believe the media has played in fracturing this country. And IMO, until people understand how this crap happens we will never get to the place where we both want the country to be, which is being able to agree to disagree.

Local man gets called out on his divisive rhetoric, spins it so that the media was to blame all along and all he really wants is reconciliation. News at eleven.

 

[EviLore]

delete my account please

Why not participate in the discussion instead of shutting down at the sight of it and running away? The OP is informal and short on citations etc. but I'm sure in our 125 million post database we can get some links about many entire threads on the talking point as I mentioned above. Again, not claiming anything one way or another about the validity of the "undocumented immigrant" vs "illegal alien" discussion, but it was a major left vs right argument. I don't see anyone here disparaging immigrants etc.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Local man gets called out on his divisive rhetoric, spins it so that the media was to blame all along and all he really wants is reconciliation. News at eleven.

 

[Autoignition]

Smug, maybe, but I don't see an actual refutation of the point because, in your heart, you know I'm not wrong.

 

[NickFire]

Local man gets called out on his divisive rhetoric, spins it so that the media was to blame all along and all he really wants is reconciliation. News at eleven.

What divisive rhetoric and spin are you talking about? Let's go line by line:

Thread title says far left, not left. --> You can read the title. Clearly says far left.

And I think its important to point out when political actors use loose terminology to run a narrative that isn't true, and this was one of them during the campaign and after from my recollection. --> This is not rhetoric. This is my recollection of what people were saying all over places like reddit and newspaper comment sections.

What I recall is that with this issue people were drip fed information such as "staying in the country after illegally entering is not a crime" and "overstaying a visa is not a crime", with the detail that every person who jumped the border did in fact commit a crime, left to the footnotes or sections of the story that don't get much notice. --> This is how I believe people formed the erroneous position. They were told these semi-related but absolute truths, and both of them are true. But they were told these things in the context of analyzing whether illegal immigrants committed a crime coming here, and by clever editing tricks the people who do not pay attention to details develop a false notion that any claim that entering illegally is a crime is wrong, and it snowballs from there.

Then the story festers, and suddenly the 49.5% of the country who supported the R candidate is racist when they really, by and large, just didn't want to reward criminal conduct. --> I don't see how my hyperbole is divisive. There has been no shortage of people claiming anyone who votes for an R candidate is racist without any room for debate in their minds. Pointing

Again though, this is not an indictment of people wanting a better life. I am just incredibly salty at the role I believe the media has played in fracturing this country. And IMO, until people understand how this crap happens we will never get to the place where we both want the country to be, which is being able to agree to disagree. --> Just my conclusion. Why that would be considered divisive is beyond me.

 

[Autoignition]

What divisive rhetoric and spin are you talking about? Let's go line by line:

No, let me stop you there. Your divisiveness was in the thread title and intentions, like S Sàmban said, not your response.

If you wanted to make a statement about how the media conveys information to the US public, you could have done that and used this particular instance as a bullet point on your list of evidence. You didn't do that. Instead, you made an entire thread dedicated to LOL THE FAR LEFT IS WRONG AGAIN!!!! which is divisive.

 

[EviLore]

You're better off leaving the far left far right left right alt-right alt-left...just leave it out of the thread title. If something is inaccurate it's inaccurate and if it's relevant to political discourse then it's worth bringing up. Hyper-partisan polarized political shit is best left elsewhere and I don't want to be on a "side."

 

[NickFire]

You're better off leaving the far left far right left right alt-right alt-left...just leave it out of the thread title. If something is inaccurate it's inaccurate and if it's relevant to political discourse then it's worth bringing up. Hyper-partisan polarized political shit is best left elsewhere and I don't want to be on a "side."

Fair enough.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Sensational, overblown thread title that focuses on **** partisanship instead of just reporting an issue? Check.

“The left” didn’t do ****. Some dumb people said something dumb. Can we just call it so? Can we do that gaf? Can we just call dumb things dumb instead this **** tribal feces fight about “da left libtards” vs “da right conservatards” ??

CAN.WE.???

When that happens, participation will increase.

 

[mr2xxx]

The argument was illegal vs. immoral.

I saw this claim constantly, but primarily reddit, news site comment sections, etc. It was generally along the lines of being here illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal offense, so anyone claiming the illegal aliens were criminals were stupid.

So instead of just coming here to discuss immigration and asking the liberals here their point of view and engaging in a discussion , you instead get mad at some random reddit comments and create some straw man argument against the “far left” for us to discuss. It’s apparent you’re concerned more about winning some internet points than actually having a genuine discussion.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Smug, maybe, but I don't see an actual refutation of the point because, in your heart, you know I'm not wrong.

Except the OP was completely on point in suggesting that the mainstream media has played a role in fracturing the country by demonizing anyone with dissenting opinions. Look no further than the Washington Post trying to paint Kanye West as an "alt right darling" for supporting Trump. This is a glaring mischaraterization. There are a multitude of reasons why someone might choose to support Trump. You would't know it by going off some of these sensationalist headlines that have been carefully designed to stir certain emotions within people.

Supporting Trump doesn't magically make you alt-right. Just as supporting Clinton in 2016 didn't make you some sort of commie. The world is complex. People are complex. The mainstream media wants you to forget this.

I am also impressed by your apparent telepathic abilities, seeing as you claim to know what I believe in my heart.

 

[NickFire]

The argument was illegal vs. immoral.



So instead of just coming here to discuss immigration and asking the liberals here their point of view and engaging in a discussion , you instead get mad at some random reddit comments and create some straw man argument against the “far left” for us to discuss. It’s apparent you’re concerned more about winning some internet points than actually having a genuine discussion.

No. My intent was to discuss what I believed was a false narrative that festered IMO when it should not have. I did not intend to engage in arguments regarding how to handle the illegal immigrant issue which I am internally conflicted on. I understand my thread title did me no favors however, but I likewise suggest that suggesting I am creating a straw man by discussing what people said on message boards, while on a message board, suggests you are looking to win some internet points yourself.

 

[Autoignition]

Except the OP was completely on point in suggesting that the mainstream media has played a role in fracturing the country by demonizing anyone with dissenting opinions. Look no further than the Washington Post trying to paint Kanye West as an "alt right darling" for supporting Trump. This is a glaring mischaraterization. There are a multitude of reasons why someone might choose to support Trump. You would't know it by going off some of these sensationalist headlines that have been carefully designed to stir certain emotions within people.

Supporting Trump doesn't magically make you alt-right. Just as supporting Clinton in 2016 didn't make you some sort of commie. The world is complex. People are complex. The mainstream media wants you to forget this.

I am also impressed by your apparent telepathic abilities, seeing as you claim to know what I believe in my heart.

Too bad the OP didn't reflect that.

And nobody ever called anyone "alt-right" in this thread. You're projecting.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Too bad the OP didn't reflect that.

And nobody ever called anyone "alt-right" in this thread. You're projecting.

I didn't accuse anyone of such a thing. I was only supporting the specific example I cited.

 

[KINGMOKU]

You're better off leaving the far left far right left right alt-right alt-left...just leave it out of the thread title. If something is inaccurate it's inaccurate and if it's relevant to political discourse then it's worth bringing up. Hyper-partisan polarized political shit is best left elsewhere and I don't want to be on a "side."

Here's the absolute truth ladies and gents. Stop using sides to determine your stance on anything. This leads to people "pulling the lever" on Republican/Democrat when they vote.

Vote the person and how they impact you and yours, not a political party.

As for the topic, the best argument I have for real immigration is from my brother in law who immigrated to the States legally;(India)

"Why did I waste all my time doing it the right way if I didn't have to?"

He gets angry(not an angry person at all)at people coming across the border illegally as it undermines the legal approach.

 

[TrainedRage]

What I think helps in topics like this is that the OP should post the article and leave it at that.

Yeah comment on it later and make your points but I feel like if the OP is mostly an opinion with no real source it will get heated and just go in circles.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Well now, that's a much more attractive thread title.

Illegals, undocumented immigrants, even refugees, do not bother me being in the country. The police are more of a threat to me.

 

[pramod]

Here's the absolute truth ladies and gents. Stop using sides to determine your stance on anything. This leads to people "pulling the lever" on Republican/Democrat when they vote.

Vote the person and how they impact you and yours, not a political party.

As for the topic, the best argument I have for real immigration is from my brother in law who immigrated to the States legally;(India)

"Why did I waste all my time doing it the right way if I didn't have to?"

He gets angry(not an angry person at all)at people coming across the border illegally as it undermines the legal approach.

But that is a classic case of fuck you got mine, as any poster on reset will tell you....

 

[KINGMOKU]

But that is a classic case of fuck you got mine, as any poster on reset will tell you....

I know and my answer will always be;

Its my job first and foremost to take care of me and mine.

I view it like that unapologetically and always will. It doesn't mean I don't care, it means I care about what's important to me more.

 

[Metaphoreus]

Yeah, this was 100% the position on off-topic post-election and it was taken as fact by the vast majority of the board, the one Correct Position or you were an alt-right evil person, etc. I haven't done enough independent research on the subject to comment at this time though.

It's partly right. Unlawful presence in the United States isn't a crime, but unlawful entry is. In this context, "unlawful" and "illegal" are often confused with "criminal," but that isn't right. Something can be unlawful or illegal--like negligently causing a car crash or overstaying a visa--without being a crime.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I know and my answer will always be;

Its my job first and foremost to take care of me and mine.

I view it like that unapologetically and always will. It doesn't mean I don't care, it means I care about what's important to me more.

That's pretty basic though. People care about themselves, their family and more.

 

[Havoc2049]

It's partly right. Unlawful presence in the United States isn't a crime, but unlawful entry is. In this context, "unlawful" and "illegal" are often confused with "criminal," but that isn't right. Something can be unlawful or illegal--like negligently causing a car crash or overstaying a visa--without being a crime.

Being a citizen of another country and being present inside the United States without proper U.S. Immigration documents to be lawfully present is still a violation of U.S. Immigration Law and that person is subject to deportation/removal and other penalties. If record checks reveal that a person who is present in the United States illegally has prior deportations/removals and criminal convictions inside the United States, they could also be charged with a felony under 8 USC 1326.

 

[phisheep]

Immigration law, like all law, is complicated and nuanced. You can't just summarise immigration law in two words, or at least if you try you're going to get it wrong.

Characterising everybody who is in the country unlawfully as an "illegal immigrant" is misleading because it misses all those who may have *entered* legally: for example children born in the USA to illegal immigrant parents (it's not a crime to be born), those outstaying tourist or student visas or whose work visas are caught up in some bureaucratic snafu. Similarly characterising everyone as merely "undocumented" underplays the illegality of entry of those who did so.

Either characterisation is a bit sloppy, but honestly I can't get too worked up about them, I'd just want to drill down a bit into actual policy.

My favourite weird example is this one: suppose king Phillipe of Belgium snuck over the Canadian border under cover of darkness and set up home in Maryland. He would undoubtedly have entered the USA illegally and would be liable to conviction, but he couldn't be deported - that's because he is an American citizen on account of his descent from the Marquis de Lafayette and a statute of Maryland granting natural-born citizenship to the Marquis and his male heirs.

Told you it was complicated.

 

[i_am_ben]

Typically, its not illegal to seek asylum.

 

[KINGMOKU]

That's pretty basic though. People care about themselves, their family and more.

It seems obvious but some would view that as a horrible thing.