Coffee |OT| Taste as good as it smells
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EdwardTeach
Member
I broke the glass on my cafetiere. I have replaced it but I also decided to give aeropress a go, and I have to say I am really impressed. I don't think cafetiere is ideal for a single cup of coffee, due to the hassle of cleaning it afterwards. As a result I used to make 3 cups, drink one and reheat the other 2 later in the day, which is far from ideal. Aeropress coffee tastes nice, but for me the key thing is that it is so quick (1 min) and easy to clean. I am fully converted. Cafetiere will now just be for when I making coffee for me than myself.
I've gone from:
Nespresso Machine
Real Coffee Machine
Cafe Coffee
Nescafe
French Press - with premium Danes or Toby Estate beans
The French Press is incredible; throw in a simple milk frother and i'm happy.
For the record, I live in Sydney - Flat Whites are incredible, never had it before but its really delicious unless its overloaded with milk as some places do.
Nespresso Machine
Real Coffee Machine
Cafe Coffee
Nescafe
French Press - with premium Danes or Toby Estate beans
The French Press is incredible; throw in a simple milk frother and i'm happy.
For the record, I live in Sydney - Flat Whites are incredible, never had it before but its really delicious unless its overloaded with milk as some places do.
My coffee keeps coming out sour ;~~~~~~~~~~~~;
Lend me your wisdom, CoffeeGAF!
Grinder: Porlex Mini
Brewer: Aeropress
Tested:
17-19 grams of Colombia San Isidro
Fine (larger than espresso grind) to medium fine (3-5 clicks)
1-3 minutes steeping time
Paper and metal filters
200F water
Regular and inverted methods
Preheating and room temperature (about 55 during winter) tools
Lend me your wisdom, CoffeeGAF!
Grinder: Porlex Mini
Brewer: Aeropress
Tested:
17-19 grams of Colombia San Isidro
Fine (larger than espresso grind) to medium fine (3-5 clicks)
1-3 minutes steeping time
Paper and metal filters
200F water
Regular and inverted methods
Preheating and room temperature (about 55 during winter) tools
super-famicom
Member
I just ordered a Fino Pour Over Kettle from Amazon. I've been using a regular kettle so far, but it's pretty difficult to control the pour. Looking forward to using this.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
You're not extracting properly, likely under extraction. Based on your grinder it looks like you're going way too fine. Recommendations for the Porlex is around 6 or 7 when using an Aeropress. How much water are you adding? With 17g I prefer to fill to middle of the 3.
Also FWIW there isn't a ton of difference between regular and inverted. The water loss thing can happen, but as soon as you put the plunger in a vacuum is created and prevents the water from dripping out.
Union Carbine
Member
My current coffee setup:
I'm lucky enough that I generally have time to make myself a cappuccino/flat white before I leave for work in the morning:
When I'm on my game, I think my pulls stack up with whatever I can get out in the world. I had my cappuccino this morning and then stopped into Stumptown and picked up one of theirs on my way to work-- the two drinks tasted so similarly that I'm not sure I could have blind-picked one over the other on flavors alone. They're much better at working the milk than I am. And I'm not always on my game...
Besides consistency, I definitely fall down with my milk-frothing. I still need to seriously work on my micro-foam and milk-texturing.
I've got a Hario Skerton (dialed in for chemex brewing) as well but it didn't make the picture.
I'm lucky enough that I generally have time to make myself a cappuccino/flat white before I leave for work in the morning:
When I'm on my game, I think my pulls stack up with whatever I can get out in the world. I had my cappuccino this morning and then stopped into Stumptown and picked up one of theirs on my way to work-- the two drinks tasted so similarly that I'm not sure I could have blind-picked one over the other on flavors alone. They're much better at working the milk than I am. And I'm not always on my game...
Besides consistency, I definitely fall down with my milk-frothing. I still need to seriously work on my micro-foam and milk-texturing.
A gooseneck kettle is close to must-have for pour-over-- it just makes controlling the flow, both speed and location, so much more precise.
That is an awesome set up Union, what is that to the left, the grinder?
For anyone that has been to SD and enjoy Dark Horse coffee, they ship the beans out now:
http://darkhorseroasting.com/
I have really only one good coffee roaster in Vegas so my options aren't that great for local sourcing.
For anyone that has been to SD and enjoy Dark Horse coffee, they ship the beans out now:
http://darkhorseroasting.com/
I have really only one good coffee roaster in Vegas so my options aren't that great for local sourcing.
So for real, why does Starbucks get such a bad reputation in this arena? I never understand the 'it tastes burned' comments from people who swallow the swill at Tim Hortons, Dunkin, McD's, or even Second Cup (which is occasionally good).
All the coffees they prefer, including the alleged 'good stuff' I have from their French presses and Keurigs at home are watery, bland or taste stale by comparison to some of the delicious dark coffees at Bucks. I swear by Komodo. So good.
I guess all our taste buds are just radically different. Burned to them is full bodied and full flavoured to me.
Also, visit a store with a Clover machine and order a cup of something like Sumatra or whatever - defy you not to fall in love.
All the coffees they prefer, including the alleged 'good stuff' I have from their French presses and Keurigs at home are watery, bland or taste stale by comparison to some of the delicious dark coffees at Bucks. I swear by Komodo. So good.
I guess all our taste buds are just radically different. Burned to them is full bodied and full flavoured to me.
Also, visit a store with a Clover machine and order a cup of something like Sumatra or whatever - defy you not to fall in love.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Try drinking an espresso black from Starbucks.
I drink all of my espressos black at home and I buy beans directly from a roaster. I nearly spit out my drink when I tried one at Starbucks. It was so bad, I threw away the rest after the first sip.
My guess is that the darker, more bitter roast is by design as they likely sell far more "milk-based" and "sugar-based" drinks than they do "coffee-based" drinks. The darker roast is necessary in this case so that you can even taste that there is coffee after you add 3-4 times the volume of milk and a ton of sugar or flavor syrup to the shot of espresso. Starbucks is in the business of selling lattes and frappaccinos and not coffee.
If you want to taste good coffee, check some local roasters and go to a tasting. Try some beans roasted within the week. Drink it black. When you finish, smell the cup. Now try the same at Starbucks.
That you have a preference for the darker roasts is your personal taste, but you are missing the nuanced caramel, floral, sweet, nutty, earthy, or citrus flavors associated with coffee beans that have been expertly roasted to accentuate these qualities of coffee beans. With expertly roasted beans, you will taste all of these flavors and you will smell these intense aromas from your cup after you finish.
super-famicom
Member
Have you ever had a hand drip coffee before? The difference between one and a Starbucks coffee is pretty apparent to me. I drink my coffee black, as I enjoy the flavors of different beans. In GAF terms, I suppose it's like comparing a prebuilt Dell desktop with a custom built gaming PC; people who are into a certain thing enjoy getting technical about it and going the extra mile to get an improved experiemce. It's all personal preference, though. If people like Starbucks, that's fine. I can't go back to it after tasting the deliciousness of a coffee that's been hand dripped.
Edit- I agree with CharlieDigital about the flavors and aromas that different beans have.
CharlieDigital
Banned
I don't think it even has to be that fancy.
The greater component is that the beans are freshly roasted, freshly ground, and not over-roasted.
You can extract an excellent brew even with a cheap French press.
super-famicom
Member
I agree with you here. I actually jumped from Starbucks/Dunkin Donuts coffee to the pour over style ever since I was introduced to it last year. I've never tried a French press coffee before.
Union Carbine
Member
Thanks. Yep. It's an HG-One: basically a hand grinder loaded with commercial Mazzer burrs.
This. Many folks don't love coffees roasted super dark and even 'Bucks's lighter roasts are considered dark by most standards. For myself, there's so much really good indie coffee around me in NYC that I have no reason to look twice at a 'Bucks. I think if Starbucks didn't define itself and aspire to hold up coffee standards, folks would approach it differently.
Hand drip = pour over?
super-famicom
Member
Yeah, that's what I meant. Dunno why I keep saying that.
CharlieDigital
Banned
BTW, that Clover is basically just a fancy, automated, single-serve French press.
Yeah, I figured. But would increasing the grind size underextract it even more? I was under the impression that extraction depended on surface area and water temperature.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Here's the thing though: Starbucks can turn out drinks consistently every single time someone comes in, and at a high volume. While getting a pour-over is nice and something some of us enjoy, the consistency and speed of Starbucks is what people like.
Starbucks gets a lot of flack, but they brought a lot to the US coffee culture early on in their tenure as a company.
And as an side, not everything needs to be manual in order for it to be good. I've gone to shops that serve coffee out of catering style carafes with coffee brewed from restaurant type drip machines.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Did you miss the part where I asked "how much water are you adding?"
I'm filling it up to the 4 mark, I'll try it with 3.
CharlieDigital
Banned
That's why I tried to emphasis that the greater component is the roast and the beans.
The brew method can amplify the flavor, but having the right foundation is the most important component to the flavor.
It's all good, just wanted to make sure this wasn't some other new way of brewing I hadn't heard of.
Union Carbine
Member
I don't think this is quite true. I think there's an addictive quality to the customer-culture at 'Bucks-- from the modifiers to the rewards, etc. Given the lines at a lot of the locations, at least in NYC, it is not that fast. Consistent, yes, but the price was moving to super-automatics and thereby choosing mediocrity in the cup.
I don't like this argument-- we're talking about things as they are now. What they did in the past, and its not even in the recent past, has no bearing at all
Of course not. Pour-overs and manual brews are nice but it starts with the beans and the roast. This is an area that Starbucks has not performed well in for a long time. It is telling that they literally introduced new beans for their flat whites-- they clearly knew that their regular espresso beans were going to suffer mightily in a drink that highlights espresso.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
You throw 100 people an hour at any store and they'll have trouble keeping up. My comment on speed and consistency was more towards the non-city environments.
I was making the statements about their history, because a lot of people think Starbucks is just some run of the mill chain. They have a storied history centered on bringing good coffee to the consumer. It's unfortunate one CEO/VP ruined this by causing them to expand far too fast.
Union Carbine
Member
Sure but people will wait for their 'Bucks. Another thing that I think all chains profit from is their familiarity-- no matter where you are, you go into a 'Bucks and it's comfortable and comforting.
Some sort of "post-mortem" on the development towards the current Starbucks would be fascinating. Not sure if it's accurate but you could make a case that expansion started the downhill slide, from trained baristas to automated machines, to lower-grade mass-market beans, to milk and sweetener based drinks to cover the deficiencies in the beans and machine-produced drinks, etc. I'd love to read an analysis.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Mark my words: Even the darlings of the coffee world (Blue Bottle, Stumptown) trying to make a similar kind of push will eventually succumb to the same issues plaguing Starbucks. Demand will cause the quality to slip, I think it has already, and their shops will begin to adjust to the demand. I've seen it happen at one such BB shop already.
I'm with you on the Espresso - I don't like how bitter and intense their shots are. And I think your theory is right about them wanting the coffee flavour to last through to the final sugary sweet drink.
However, I'm not talking about espresso beans, but coffee. They've got about 15 or 16 different coffees (mostly bolds) in house that are excellent and just brewed as coffee. And I've tried them either on their Clover (yes, I'm aware it's just a fancy press
) or via pour over (hand drip) which I vastly prefer to the large urn still brewing method. I'm getting all the beautiful caramelly, fruity, nutty flavours from each and I love it.I've tried coffee from a lot of indie coffee houses across Toronto, and honestly, they don't compare to a cup of Sumatra or Komodo for me. And half the time, they're just as expensive or even more expensive than Bucks. It baffles me then that Bucks' rep is still what it is. They're way more than Fraps and Sugary lattes, but I agree that it's still what they're best known for these days.
Edit - I lied - I really love the Dark City roast at The Senator in Toronto. So good.
Union Carbine
Member
No doubt it is something that they grapple with. Getting to certain regional or national levels requires making choices and many of those answers (probably the best answers from a pure business standpoint) lead down the Starbucks path. It will be interesting if any of the new breed can find a different way to build and cope with success.
Union Carbine
Member
It sounds like you really like your dark roasts. In my experience, the third-wave type shops eschew the darker roasts-- and 'Bucks goes really dark-- maybe that's why they don't meet your expectations?
biosnake20
Member
Where do you guys get your coffees from? At the moment I'm trying out some different fairway coffees and I was on a blue bottle tip before that.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I'm in NJ and have bought from all over the country: California, Washington, Portland, Maine, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. It's a matter finding out about roasters and ordering what seems interesting.
CharlieDigital
Banned
I'd try some local roasters first because you can get them pretty fresh.
When I'm out in California, I hit up Hidden House Coffee Roasters in San Juan Capistrano.
Even served from a drip machine, it tastes amazing because the roast is perfection.
When I'm on the east coast, I work from home and there aren't as many roasters nearby so I order from CoffeeBeanDirect.com. There is some variability in the age of the roasts, but they will often be within 1-2 weeks of the roast date. I've gotten shipments within 2 days of roasting.
The Tanzanian Peaberry and Ethiopian Yirgacheffe are great choices if you want to savor the natural sweetness that can be inherent in coffee.
Union Carbine
Member
Same except I'm in NYC. Right now, I've been hitting a lot of the local coffee: Cafe Grumpy, Gorilla. I did pick up a bag of Ethiopian beans from West Coast Roasting Company last week that's turned out pretty well. I like to jump around and try different things.
Union Carbine
Member
GoCoffeeGo is really good for this as well-- they basically act as a storefront for a bunch of different roasters. It's all roast to ship so you're getting fresh batches when you order.
CharlieDigital
Banned
That's very interesting. I'm going to give that a try with my next batch.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
If you're looking for variety there's Craft Coffee. Every delivery contains 3 different roasters. It's a good way to sample a bunch of different stuff.
Union Carbine
Member
I've been meaning to try that. One thing I like about GoCoffeeGo is that it's not subscription based. You can do that if you want to but you don't have to. I'm getting a bit weary of the coffee subscription model.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I did it for my first subscription, but ultimately preferred ordering at my leisure and from wherever. But they're the perfect thing for people who don't want to think about that kind of stuff.
CharlieDigital
Banned
I'm all about dat freshness. 3 packs is probably too much for me to consume in a timely manner.
I go through a 16oz shipment in about 2 weeks and usually by the end of week 1, the aroma of the beans have already changed due to oxidation (I store in vacuum sealed canisters, but obviously they still trap air).
Union Carbine
Member
I just went through their subscription customization form and you can choose one bag or a sampler. You can also choose the size of the bag or the samples so you can do three 4oz sampler bags if you want. Here's what their customizer spat out for me:
You can also choose the frequency so you could refine the subscription so that you're not getting beans too soon or too late, generally.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I am so indifferent on the freshness thing. I've had bags be fine for upwards of 3 weeks before they became tough to drink. Obviously I don't want something showing up to my door 12 days post roast, but if stuff is stored properly it should last. Vacuum sealing may not be the best route to be honest. Coffee needs a way to release gas and vacuum sealing them in a canister doesn't let that gas escape.
They don't send you 3 16oz bags, it's 3 oz bags. So you're still getting 12oz of coffee, same as every roaster, which should be good for 2 weeks.
So I made two more cups. One at 6 clicks and one at 4 clicks. Maybe 170 grams of water. It's coming out similar to my previous attempts, and it's not bad by any means, but I think what I'm taking to be "sour" is actually what others would describe as "fruity".
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Ok, that's different and makes sense based on what you ordered. From the tasting notes:
These are all bitter tastes, which could lead to thought of something being sour. If you don't like fruity tasting coffee look for stuff with notes of sweetness: chocolate, hazelnut, honey, etc.
Also bear in mind that sometimes roasts require some extra effort to get them to work. Perhaps you adjust the grind up or down a click. Perhaps you need an extra 20-30g of water. Perhaps you need 5-10g of coffee, but keep the same amount of water. It all varies a lot.
Hell, sometimes even the water itself can be an issue.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
By spring water do you mean Poland Spring or something similar? Hopefully you're not just going out back and pumping something out of well.
*bottled water.
Maybe I should keep out a cup to harvest some freshly fallen snow.
Honestly, I've noticed that as well with some beans and some roasts. I've had some coffee that I thought tasted sour, I guess it just wasn't for me.
Union Carbine
Member
If your coffee lists tasting notes, you'll want to read them before you buy to make sure you get something you want. The fruit flavors come across mostly as degrees and variations of sour. Chocolate notes are bitter. Bright usually refers to a lot of the fruit notes. Chocolate notes tend to come through milk better.
You can also tune the beans a bit with your brewing temperatures. Higher temperatures tend to supress the fruit notes and bring more chocolate notes forward. Lower temperatures tend to do the opposite.
If you've got a batch of beans dialed in as far as brew times, grind, etc. go and you want to alter its flavor profile, you can play with the temperatures. It's not going to totally transform a bean's character but you can definitely tweak it.
You can also tune the beans a bit with your brewing temperatures. Higher temperatures tend to supress the fruit notes and bring more chocolate notes forward. Lower temperatures tend to do the opposite.
If you've got a batch of beans dialed in as far as brew times, grind, etc. go and you want to alter its flavor profile, you can play with the temperatures. It's not going to totally transform a bean's character but you can definitely tweak it.