COMICS! l OT l September in 3, 2, 1, Zero issues

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Ephidel said:
That said, my favourite issue this week was also by Gillen. Journey into Mystery continues to be fantastic, even when it's in crossover mode.
Thor is fighting, Volstagg is under pressure, Loki is snooping, Thori has grown up, Scary Lady has "returned"... I love this book. "Writers lie" indeed
. I don't want it to end :(
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THIS. Everything Burns is light years better than AvX.
 
Without a spoiler as to the event itself (A v X # 11 - Nuff said.), can I mention how annoying the concept of PermaDeath is in the MU?

Colossus was killed by the legacy virus; he's back.
Hawkeye was killed in Avengers Dissassembled (the event that turned me off from reading Bendis' Avengers in the first place); he's back.
Cap was killed at the end of Civil War, until he wasn't.

Marvel has spent the better part of a decade trolling Jean Grey fans to the point that it's not a question of if they'll bring back the character, so much as when and how. I could certainly go on; haven't even mentioned Norman Osborn. We as fans all know these characters will be brought back when a new writer has a use for them.


Killing a character at the end of an event cheapens the few deaths in comical that are meant to last (RIP Ben Parker). Even if you think it makes logical sense at the time, repeating these beats over and over again makes it more difficult for other writers to use those characters in the future. It doesn't make for great storytelling, so much as it's the ultimate act of selfishness on the part of the writer.

If you can't give a story real stakes without temporarily offing a character, maybe you need to be telling a better story.
 
BJK said:
Without a spoiler as to the event itself (A v X # 11 - Nuff said.), can I mention how annoying the concept of PermaDeath is in the MU?

Colossus was killed by the legacy virus; he's back.
Hawkeye was killed in Avengers Dissassembled (the event that turned me off from reading Bendis' Avengers in the first place); he's back.
Cap was killed at the end of Civil War, until he wasn't.

Marvel has spent the better part of a decade trolling Jean Grey fans to the point that it's not a question of if they'll bring back the character, so much as when and how. I could certainly go on; haven't even mentioned Norman Osborn. We as fans all know these characters will be brought back when a new writer has a use for them.


Killing a character at the end of an event cheapens the few deaths in comical that are meant to last (RIP Ben Parker). Even if you think it makes logical sense at the time, repeating these beats over and over again makes it more difficult for other writers to use those characters in the future. It doesn't make for great storytelling, so much as it's the ultimate act of selfishness on the part of the writer.

If you can't give a story real stakes without temporarily offing a character, maybe you need to be telling a better story.
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This argument always bugs me because people always trot out Jean Grey like it was troll. Um, "the better part of a decade"? SHE'S BEEN DEAD FOR TEN YEARS. How is that not permanent?

It's like being alive now and saying "Well, there's been no sequel to Magnolia YET, but sure as fuck, it's coming, because you know how Hollywood is! PTA is just trolling us!"

Jeepers creepers.
 
That said, I'm on record as having found the instantly reversed "deaths" in Fear Itself to have been total bullshit.

But bringing Jean Grey into this argument is totally facile.
 
Finished Remender's run on Venom, really fucking enjoyed that. Circle Of Four was baller, especially from an art perspective.

Picked up Batman #0, will read after work.
 
death in comics isn't about finality. its about the story that the death facilitates. Hopefully its not done casually and there is a very specific action or change that results from said death. These characters make Marvel/DC money and to think that death is the same as it is in the real world is just silly.
 
BJK said:
Without a spoiler as to the event itself (A v X # 11 - Nuff said.), can I mention how annoying the concept of PermaDeath is in the MU?

Colossus was killed by the legacy virus; he's back.
Hawkeye was killed in Avengers Dissassembled (the event that turned me off from reading Bendis' Avengers in the first place); he's back.
Cap was killed at the end of Civil War, until he wasn't.

Marvel has spent the better part of a decade trolling Jean Grey fans to the point that it's not a question of if they'll bring back the character, so much as when and how. I could certainly go on; haven't even mentioned Norman Osborn. We as fans all know these characters will be brought back when a new writer has a use for them.


Killing a character at the end of an event cheapens the few deaths in comical that are meant to last (RIP Ben Parker). Even if you think it makes logical sense at the time, repeating these beats over and over again makes it more difficult for other writers to use those characters in the future. It doesn't make for great storytelling, so much as it's the ultimate act of selfishness on the part of the writer.

If you can't give a story real stakes without temporarily offing a character, maybe you need to be telling a better story.
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...... ...... Captain Marvel is back?
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
This argument always bugs me because people always trot out Jean Grey like it was troll. Um, "the better part of a decade"? SHE'S BEEN DEAD FOR TEN YEARS. How is that not permanent?

It's like being alive now and saying "Well, there's been no sequel to Magnolia YET, but sure as fuck, it's coming, because you know how Hollywood is! PTA is just trolling us!"

Jeepers creepers.
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So the fact that we're in our third crossover event dealing with a character designed to resemble Jean Grey (Hope's red hair, green eyes, and tied to the Phoenix Force), with an aftermath bringing the original Jean Grey character (along with the rest of the first class) forward in time temporarily....none of that strikes you as remotely troll-like?


The only characters in Marvel that stay dead are the ones who fail to make enough of an impression to give writers a reason to bring them back. Whether its WonderMan, Jean Grey (the first time), Scott Lang, Quasar, etc. Killing off characters is rarely more than a crutch to add gravitas to a story...most of which should be negated by expectation. The characters are just put on the shelf until a new writer finds a use for them; you can do the same thing by just not using the character.
 
BJK said:
So the fact that we're in our third crossover event dealing with a character designed to resemble Jean Grey (Hope's red hair, green eyes, and tied to the Phoenix Force), with an aftermath bringing the original Jean Grey character (along with the rest of the first class) forward in time temporarily....none of that strikes you as remotely troll-like?
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Uh, no. Not at all troll-like, but to be honest, I can't even parse out what that means.
 
Parallax said:
he always sneaks under the fucking radar.

but there are plenty of characters that have been dead with no signs of return.

banshee and pyro for starters.
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Pyro is a C-list villain, so it's not completely surprising that they left him dead. As BJK said, death is only permanent for the characters without large fanbases. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring back Banshee or Nightcrawler at some point though.

I don't have a problem with death in comics as long as writers are adding characters back into the mix, and not just using death as a cheap shock. However, it gets sort of ridiculous when some heroes are on their second or third deaths (not even counting the times where they are killed off for an issue or two like in the Infinity Gauntlet). Marvel "killed" Thor twice in like 7 years. Are we going to be shocked if he dies again in 5 years?
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
PRESENTING ARCADE'S BATTLE ROYALE:

http://marvel.com/news/story/19377/marvel_now_qa_avengers_arena

AVENGERS ARENA
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Don't really care for the "kids fighting to the death to survive" stories anymore (went back and reread my BR manga recently, couldn't stand it); but X-23's involvement means I pretty much have to see this, out of genuine fear that something bad's gonna happen to Laura. Especially if Hopeless has been following her character development at all and recognizes her penchant for self-sacrifice to save others.

Damn you, Marvel!
 
I just read Batman and Robin #0 and it was ok (very short however) but what's got me is the character profile of Damian at the end. "First appearance: Batman and Robin #1 (2011)". Uhhh, no it wasn't. Are DC really going to pretend the last 80 years of comics never existed? Expecially when this story ended verbatim with the actual first appearance of Damian in Batman #whateverthefuckitwas. It's disingenuous and will only serve to confuse stupid people.
 
Jedeye Sniv said:
I just read Batman and Robin #0 and it was ok (very short however) but what's got me is the character profile of Damian at the end. "First appearance: Batman and Robin #1 (2011)". Uhhh, no it wasn't. Are DC really going to pretend the last 80 years of comics never existed? Expecially when this story ended verbatim with the actual first appearance of Damian in Batman #whateverthefuckitwas. It's disingenuous and will only serve to confuse stupid people.
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Ttv1Y.jpg

"And that's why you never reboot the universe."
 
Jedeye Sniv said:
I just read Batman and Robin #0 and it was ok (very short however) but what's got me is the character profile of Damian at the end. "First appearance: Batman and Robin #1 (2011)". Uhhh, no it wasn't. Are DC really going to pretend the last 80 years of comics never existed? Expecially when this story ended verbatim with the actual first appearance of Damian in Batman #whateverthefuckitwas. It's disingenuous and will only serve to confuse stupid people.
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It's not just Damian; 2011 is now the first appearance of every DC Universe character.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dc-comics-new-52-whos-who-zero-issues.html

Feel free to send any copies of Action Comics #1 circa 1938 my way, fellas, since they're completely worthless now. I'm sure I can find something to do with them.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
Uh, no. Not at all troll-like, but to be honest, I can't even parse out what that means.
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I'm going to start by saying that I have never written to Marvel or emailed / tweeted anyone at Marvel re: Jean Grey. That's not me. I am simply resigned to the inevitability that the character will return.

It is no secret that Jean Grey is a popular character, and there is a population of fans pestering Marvel to bring the character back. At the Marvel panel at Comic Con 2008, it was even said that there had been discussions about bringing the character back; it was not something they wanted to rush. (Again, my feeling that it's inevitable.)

In 2007, Marvel introduced a young mutant created to resemble Jean.
The character was also given some connection to the Phoenix Force...like Jean...but not Jean.

(Mild trolling, but trolling nonetheless. Give the character black hair - or any physical features not resembling Jean, and you cut-off fanboy speculation.)

Second, Marvel is bringing back Jean Grey as a regular character in an ongoing book. Of the characters in Bendis' New X-Men, it is Jean that they put in the Marvel Now promos, again fueling speculation. Marvel acknowledges that it is Jean...but with a twist that it's pre-death Jean. (Again, that is what I would call trolling.)

Then there's the matter of that AvX 12 promo that we all assume isn't Jean (since you can't see a face), but was drawn to look like Dark Phoenix Jean.
 
Avengers Royale, gimme a break, Marvel. Way to take what could have been a dumb but maybe fun Avengers Academy arc and stretch it into an ongoing.
 
BJK said:
I'm going to start by saying that I have never written to Marvel or emailed / tweeted anyone at Marvel re: Jean Grey. That's not me. I am simply resigned to the inevitability that the character will return.

It is no secret that Jean Grey is a popular character, and there is a population of fans pestering Marvel to bring the character back. At the Marvel panel at Comic Con 2008, it was even said that there had been discussions about bringing the character back; it was not something they wanted to rush. (Again, my feeling that it's inevitable.)

In 2007, Marvel introduced a young mutant created to resemble Jean.
The character was also given some connection to the Phoenix Force...like Jean...but not Jean.

(Mild trolling, but trolling nonetheless. Give the character black hair - or any physical features not resembling Jean, and you cut-off fanboy speculation.)

Second, Marvel is bringing back Jean Grey as a regular character in an ongoing book. Of the characters in Bendis' New X-Men, it is Jean that they put in the Marvel Now promos, again fueling speculation. Marvel acknowledges that it is Jean...but with a twist that it's pre-death Jean. (Again, that is what I would call trolling.)

Then there's the matter of that AvX 12 promo that we all assume isn't Jean (since you can't see a face), but was drawn to look like Dark Phoenix Jean.
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Ah, okay.

Yeah, that's full troll.
 
Jedeye Sniv said:
I just read Batman and Robin #0 and it was ok (very short however) but what's got me is the character profile of Damian at the end. "First appearance: Batman and Robin #1 (2011)". Uhhh, no it wasn't. Are DC really going to pretend the last 80 years of comics never existed? Expecially when this story ended verbatim with the actual first appearance of Damian in Batman #whateverthefuckitwas. It's disingenuous and will only serve to confuse stupid people.
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Don't give a fuck about the past. YO fucking LO. It's fucking comics.
 
Spike Spiegel said:
It's not just Damian; 2011 is now the first appearance of every DC Universe character.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dc-comics-new-52-whos-who-zero-issues.html

Feel free to send any copies of Action Comics #1 circa 1938 my way, fellas, since they're completely worthless now. I'm sure I can find something to do with them.
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That is FUCKING DUMB. Why even reference Batman and Son so explicitly if you're going to deny its existence? So weird.

ElNarez said:
Don't give a fuck about the past. YO fucking LO. It's fucking comics.
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Erm... I can't tell if you're being sarky or not. I'm hoping yes :D
 
Always makes me laugh when I see people get bent out of shape over comic book continuity. It's like crying over spilt milk when you live in a bowl of Cheerios.
 
ElNarez said:
It's too much if it gets in the way of you enjoying comics. Simple as that.
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But what if it leads to comics being worse and thus gets in the way of enjoyment. Some continuity heads is stupid, sure, but a part of the appeal of, well, just Marvel books now, lol, is the history of the characters.

I'm not saying we need to push our glasses up and snort, "Peterrrah Parker was not in Central Park that Tuesday, ah 1986, No-ee-vember, errr." but they should acknowledge he was a high school teacher once, or had a black costume once that was an alien.

That's good continuity.
 
LiQuid! said:
Always makes me laugh when I see people get bent out of shape over comic book continuity. It's like crying over spilt milk when you live in a bowl of Cheerios.
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Ahh bowl of cheerios. I thought you said house
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
But what if it leads to comics being worse and thus gets in the way of enjoyment. Some continuity heads is stupid, sure, but a part of the appeal of, well, just Marvel books now, lol, is the history of the characters.

I'm not saying we need to push our glasses up and snort, "Peterrrah Parker was not in Central Park that Tuesday, ah 1986, No-ee-vember, errr." but they should acknowledge he was a high school teacher once, or had a black costume once that was an alien.

That's good continuity.
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Then it's bad comics, and bad comics need to be disregarded. I'm not denying it's extremely fun and rewarding to have stuff building up to other stuff over a long period of time, but in certain parts of The Comics Internet there's way too much emphasis put on that, and not enough on Good Comics. Case in point : you being a poorer person for not having read the quite fucking excellent first year of Azzarello on Wonder Woman.
 
ElNarez said:
Then it's bad comics, and bad comics need to be disregarded. I'm not denying it's extremely fun and rewarding to have stuff building up to other stuff over a long period of time, but in certain parts of The Comics Internet there's way too much emphasis put on that, and not enough on Good Comics. Case in point : you being a poorer person for not having read the quite fucking excellent first year of Azzarello on Wonder Woman.
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I did start and enjoy those...
 
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