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COMICS! |OT| December 2014. Alas, reading this thread backwards simply doesn't work.

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G

GAMEPROFF

Banned
E the Shaggy said:
41rZfgU.jpg
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Wheres that from?
 
A

Afrodium

Banned
Alright Comic-GAF, I'm really hoping you can help me with a question that has confused me forever - I don't understand continuity or cannon in comics, and more specifically I don't understand how people who are into comics keep up with everything. I picked up a Marvel Unlimited subscription a few months back and decided to finally dive into comics. The main reason I hadn't started sooner was because of the very question I'm posing here, and I have to say that even though I've read quite a few comics I still don't quite get it. I haven't been reading any long runs, just arcs that have been recommended - Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye, Waid's Daredevil, the Ultimates, Ms. Marvel, Captain America and The Winter Soldier, Secret Wars and some other stuff. I was able to enjoy these in their own right because they're for the most part self contained and even though some referred to events from earlier comics or different series entirely they still brough me enough up to speed.

However, yesterday I stubmled upon the OT for Hickman's Avengers run and started reading it right away. I'm reading Avengers and New Avengers concurrently by date to get a feel of how the stories would unfold for someone picking up each issue as they were released. Knowing that both series tie into each other and are from the same writer, I thought it would be a good place to see how Marvel Universe events unfold in real time through multiple series. Only a few issues in and I'm more confused about continuity than ever. At the end of Avengers #2, Tony Stark is stuck on Mars and Captain America has teleported there with a bunch of other heroes for a recuse mission. In New Avengers #2 (released between Avengers #2 and #3) Tony Stark and Captain America are in Wakanda. What? In addition to that, there's a bunch of other Avengers series running at the same time in which I assumer Cap and Iron Man are doing different things, and they each have their own series in which they're probably doing other stuff.

Am I just supposed to assume everything that happens in each series is cannon, and not worry about when it's actually happening? Like, Captain America can be in multiple Avengers series and his own series and you just shouldn't question how he can be in all these places at once? Are most series mostly self contained unless they start a crossover with another series or events from another series make an impact on the Marvel Universe as a whole? Will anything that requires information from a different series come with heavy exposition?

I think this post is getting kind of long, but I just have a lot of questions about it and it's hard to state them all succinctly. Here's all the other question I have:

1. Are characters the same across all series even if they're written entirely differently? For instance, Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye is the same guy fighting aliens on Mars in Avengers?

2. I had always assumed that comic books rebooted themselves fairly often to prevent the history from becoming too bloated, but I'm learning that that isn't the case and that all heroes have super bloated backstories. So Peter Parker of today is the same Peter Parker from Amazing Spider-Man #1 and has done everything the character has been depicted doing on Earth 616? That's a huge resume. Does all of this history matter much, or is it something like how Homer Simpson has had hundreds of jobs in the cannon of The Simpsons but that doesn't matter because it's just a cartoon?

3. How on Earth do comic book fans keep up with it all? I'm assuming they don't buy all the comics that come out each week because that would be quite expensive. Can you just keep up to date on a few series and kind of get the gist of whatever is going on in the universe?

Phew, I think that's it. I'm really hoping I can get some answers. There's just a lot to wrap my head around.
 
F

fauxtrot

Banned
I was checking out Comics Alliance's "The Best Comic Books of 2014" (part 1 & part 2), and I thought y'all would have a nice little freakout over this:

ACTUAL BEST ISSUE OF 'MULTIVERSITY'

314381_20140918130548_large.jpg


THE MULTIVERSITY: THE SOCIETY OF SUPER-HEROES - CONQUERORS OF THE COUNTER-WORLD

Frank Quitely may be great at drawing people walking around backwards (or whatever was going on in Pax Americana) but The Society of Super-Heroes was the actual best issue of Multiversity this year.

[...]

With Chris Sprouse on art, the book proved to be a surprisingly heady mix of pulp action and zombie apocalypse. His sturdy character designs felt immediately engaging and likeable, and matched Morrison’s madcap script panel-for-panel. Who needs passive-aggressive subtextual attacks on Alan Moore when you can have straight-up textual Doc Fate kicking Felix Faust in the balls?
Click to expand...
 
F

Freezasaurus

Member
Afrodium said:
1. Are characters the same across all series even if they're written entirely differently? For instance, Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye is the same guy fighting aliens on Mars in Avengers?
Click to expand...

Well, Hawkeye's solo series is pretty much about how he spends his days when he's not being an Avenger. So yeah. Same dude. It seems ridiculous to think these characters could do all of this stuff and not be exhausted every minute of their lives, but it's comics. It doesn't need to make sense.

Afrodium said:
2. I had always assumed that comic books rebooted themselves fairly often to prevent the history from becoming too bloated, but I'm learning that that isn't the case and that all heroes have super bloated backstories. So Peter Parker of today is the same Peter Parker from Amazing Spider-Man #1 and has done everything the character has been depicted doing on Earth 616? That's a huge resume. Does all of this history matter much, or is it something like how Homer Simpson has had hundreds of jobs in the cannon of The Simpsons but that doesn't matter because it's just a cartoon?
Click to expand...

I would say it only matters as much as you allow it to. Admittedly, I've never really given it that much thought. At some point, you have to just read what you enjoy and not worry about the big picture. This is much more an issue where DC and Marvel books are concerned, which is a reason I tend to prefer Indy publishers like Image and IDW. Their books are mostly self-inclusive and isolated from other books, so crossovers and things like that are kept to a minimum. Every book is its own continuity. Things are murkier in that regard where the big publishers are concerned. Marvel is at a point these days where they simply jump from one event to the next.

If there's a specific series that you're interested in checking out, I'm sure someone around here would be able to slap together a good reading guide for you.

Afrodium said:
3. How on Earth do comic book fans keep up with it all? I'm assuming they don't buy all the comics that come out each week because that would be quite expensive. Can you just keep up to date on a few series and kind of get the gist of whatever is going on in the universe?
Click to expand...

Read the good stuff, Wikipedia everything else. The most important thing to being a comic fan is just to read what genuinely interests you. You'll never be able to keep up with everything.
 
G

GrandHarrier

Member
Afrodium said:
Alright Comic-GAF, I'm really hoping you can help me with a question that has confused me forever - I don't understand continuity or cannon in comics, and more specifically I don't understand how people who are into comics keep up with everything.

1. Are characters the same across all series even if they're written entirely differently? For instance, Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye is the same guy fighting aliens on Mars in Avengers?

2. I had always assumed that comic books rebooted themselves fairly often to prevent the history from becoming too bloated, but I'm learning that that isn't the case and that all heroes have super bloated backstories. So Peter Parker of today is the same Peter Parker from Amazing Spider-Man #1 and has done everything the character has been depicted doing on Earth 616? That's a huge resume. Does all of this history matter much, or is it something like how Homer Simpson has had hundreds of jobs in the cannon of The Simpsons but that doesn't matter because it's just a cartoon?

3. How on Earth do comic book fans keep up with it all? I'm assuming they don't buy all the comics that come out each week because that would be quite expensive. Can you just keep up to date on a few series and kind of get the gist of whatever is going on in the universe?

Phew, I think that's it. I'm really hoping I can get some answers. There's just a lot to wrap my head around.
Click to expand...

Hi there! Welcome!

Continuity is a hell of a beast. But it's also one that can easily be handled by a few simple things; First, continuity doesn't really matter. We like to pretend that it does, and yes at times people will reference something that happened in the past, but you need to realize that writers rewrite characters backstories or the events they were in all the time. You have to think of continuity as a general, nebulous concept. Pull basic details out of it to help you understand characters, but never allow yourself to be so hamstrung by understanding what is happening and how it relates that you can't enjoy the comic for what it is.

On to your specific issues:

1) Generally speaking, no matter where a character is written, so long as it is in the same "universe" it is the same character. Makes sense, right? Well, except that writers will sometimes gloss over stuff that other writers are doing or not include it into their current storylines. So the Batman you read in Batman may not act the same as in Batman and Robin and hey, wasn't he in space when he was also fighting the Joker? You just have to "handwave" away those kind of things away. It matters but it doesn't. Find the version of the character you like and read it.

2) Different comic companies handle continuity a bit differently. Marvel tends to use the sliding time scale; So events that happen "now" will happen in the future in regards to the current now. Basically, if something happened in the 90s and we're in the 2010s, then when it's 2020, that stuff actually happened in the 2000s. Another way to think about it is that everything has happened say, 5 to 10 years ago, so if you read a book in the 80s, it happened in the 70s, but if you read a story that references it *now* then it happened in like 2010. It's like stretching and contracting time as you need it. DC on the otherhand, tends to do what you said, and reboots its universe to condense or reset (usually condense and adjust). But the key to enjoying comic timelines is that never pin anything down to specific dates. It's MUCH better to say "5 years ago" or even better "A few years ago".

3) Comic fandom is a learning process. You start small and grow into it. If you start with just Captain America, eventually you get into the Avengers. Now you want to know more about their crazy adventures so you read up on what they've done in the past or pick up old trades, or research it in wikis. Then you start reading Thor, so you do the same for him. Over time, like any hobby, you just absorb it via osmosis. Don't ever try and rush yourself to know everything right now. Grow into it organically. You'll enjoy the process more. Just accept that you'll be confused on occasion and don't be afraid to ask questions.
 
C

Cheska

Member
Rafa=FedKilla said:
So Catwoman has gotten the writing part correctly, just wish they could fix the art now. There's a reason why Gerry Brown was drawing The Massive.
Click to expand...

I think the art has been pretty appropriate in regards to where the story is it. It's very gritty, and yet elegant when need be.
 
F

Freezasaurus

Member
Cheska said:
I think the art has been pretty appropriate in regards to where the story is it. It's very gritty, and yet elegant when need be.
Click to expand...

Too bad it's on Wii U and will never get the exposure it deserves. :(

Rafa=FedKilla said:
So Catwoman has gotten the writing part correctly, just wish they could fix the art now. There's a reason why Gerry Brown was drawing The Massive.
Click to expand...

I don't dislike the art in Catwoman. It's got a gritty look that fits with the street-level aesthetic. What's Maleev up to these days?
 
M

MG310

Member
Afrodium said:
Am I just supposed to assume everything that happens in each series is cannon, and not worry about when it's actually happening?

1. Are characters the same across all series even if they're written entirely differently? For instance, Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye is the same guy fighting aliens on Mars in Avengers?

2. I had always assumed that comic books rebooted themselves fairly often to prevent the history from becoming too bloated, but I'm learning that that isn't the case and that all heroes have super bloated backstories. So Peter Parker of today is the same Peter Parker from Amazing Spider-Man #1 and has done everything the character has been depicted doing on Earth 616? That's a huge resume. Does all of this history matter much, or is it something like how Homer Simpson has had hundreds of jobs in the cannon of The Simpsons but that doesn't matter because it's just a cartoon?

3. How on Earth do comic book fans keep up with it all? I'm assuming they don't buy all the comics that come out each week because that would be quite expensive. Can you just keep up to date on a few series and kind of get the gist of whatever is going on in the universe?

Phew, I think that's it. I'm really hoping I can get some answers. There's just a lot to wrap my head around.
Click to expand...

Worrying about the "When is this happening compared to what is happening with the same character in another book" is a good way to break your brain.

1. Yes

2. Yes but you don't have to know every little bit of it nor should anyone expect you to. There are important stories that have stayed with the characters over time but not everything matters. If a writer wants to reference something that happened in the past or is inheriting a new status quo then they will. Time passes in the real world and that is usually reflected in the world in which the characters exist but not so much for the characters themselves - some will age over time (X-Men, Spider-Man going from teens to 20/30 somethings), some will be eternally 25-35 years old and nobody will notice.

3. Just follow the characters you like. You're already reading the right books in New Avengers/Avengers for the stuff that has ramifications for the whole Marvel Universe. Usually that stuff is reserved for separate event books though. Believe me, they'll tell you when they are coming.
 
F

Filthy Slug

Crowd screaming like hounds at the heat of the chase/ All the colors of the rainbow flood my face
fauxtrot said:
I was checking out Comics Alliance's "The Best Comic Books of 2014" (part 1 & part 2), and I thought y'all would have a nice little freakout over this:
Click to expand...

When I was thinking of my Best Comics of the Year list, I felt SOS or Thunderworld were my favorite Multiversity issues as well. I fucking love Pax Americana, but I think that the surprise of how damn good S.O.S. and Thunderworld are made them a more fun read. Like, everybody knew Pax was going to be the heaviest, most fucking deep and interesting book, but S.O.S. is just perfect pulp adventure and Thunderwold is Saturday Morning Cartoons incarnate. Basically, Multiversity is fucking dope.

Rafa=FedKilla said:
So Catwoman has gotten the writing part correctly, just wish they could fix the art now. There's a reason why Gerry Brown was drawing The Massive.
Click to expand...
Gerry Brown is kind of awful, man. I was trying to stay with the dude on Iron Patriot, because there were some solid and impressive splash pages and paneling but Catwoman is just a smeared doo-doo mess. I'm not really feeling the new Catwoman at all from either the writing or art end, but it's clear the art is the weaker of the two.
 
C

CapNBritain

Member
E the Shaggy said:
41rZfgU.jpg
Click to expand...

Injustice has just been on fire. I'm really sad that Tom Taylor is leaving. This issue was heartbreaking in its awesomeness. I'm more of a Marvel guy, but Marvel can't really conjure up the emotions that DC characters can when it comes to these sorts of bittersweet future/what-if stories. Closest was the final
Gwen
issue of Marvels. Maybe it's because the Marvel characters are "grittier" and more "realisitic" and there's just something about seeing DC's heroic archetypes humanized that hits home.

Also, regarding the Injustice storyline:
Superman is in a magic coma that Batman induced, right? So who is in control of the dream? Is it a 3rd party or no-party? Is it Clark, meaning deep down he wishes that he could have done things differently? Or is it Bruce, meaning Bruce wishes he could have taken the fall for Superman?

It's funny that in a book some have lambasted for being disrespectful to these characters has issues crammed full of real human interaction and the exploration of relationships through the DC Universe. This issue says so much about Bruce and Clark
Bruce willing to sacrifice himself for Clark. Bruce turning himself in if he crossed his no kill line. Clark wanting someone that's a part of him. Clark wanting to save the world in more ways than just punching bad guys.
and I hope that it continues in this tradition after Tom leaves.
 
T

tim1138

Member
PsychBat! said:
And that's why ComicGAF is crazy. Everyone should get Wii U's. Awesome exclusives and a ton of fun.
Click to expand...

The Wii U is the only current gen console I own, and to be completely honest nothing on the PS4 or XB1 makes me want to pick one up. Free online, games that still have couch co-op, at this point it's all I need our want.
And for the record, Bayo 2 was my GOTY as well.
 
P

PsychBat!

Banned
tim1138 said:
The Wii U is the only current gen console I own, and to be completely honest nothing on the PS4 or XB1 makes me want to pick one up. Free online, games that still have couch co-op, at this point it's all I need our want.
And for the record, Bayo 2 was my GOTY as well.
Click to expand...
I feel the same. I'm a Wii U/PC guy myself. But I still haven't picked up Bayo 2 though.
 
R

Rawr Its Ry

Member
Hi comics GAF, I've been enjoying spider verse so far, but I haven't read any of the tie ins except for the team up books, are the other books just as fun?
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Rafa=FedKilla said:
I think they are misfiring a bit. The Valiant was my book of the month for December though. Too many minis. Quantum and Woody should be coming out every month. I also don't think they've fully realized their universe yet. Bloodshot is one of the least uninteresting characters known to man.
Click to expand...

I agree. I also find him interesting.
 
M

Messi

Member
GAMEPROFF said:
Anyone read Spider-Man & The X-Men? Just read the first Issue... And its pretty bad...
Click to expand...

Shame, it would be much better with SpOck. As are most things I suppose.

Also where is Anna Maria during Spiderverse? Don't drop her from the book Slott. Please.

Melon Yellow said:
Quick question, does Marvel Unlimited have current (on-going) issues or just old issues?

I'm thinking of buying it.
Click to expand...

New issues are on a 6 month delay from retail.
 
O

Owzers

Member
I told myself i wasn't going to hate anything today after so much DA 3 hate and i've already hated the Injustice page and Man of Steel in that Sony thread. I better finish Arkham Manor #1 now so i can give not hating things another chance tmw.
 
D

Dunbar

Member
Afrodium said:
Alright Comic-GAF, I'm really hoping you can help me with a question that has confused me forever [snip]
Click to expand...
I just started reading comics in September myself, and I can tell you that if you try to develop any kind of complete understanding of continuity (in either DC or Marvel), you're going to drive yourself crazy. You're almost better off treating each series like it exists in its own universe, save obvious exceptions like Hickman's Avengers/New Avengers. Figure out what series, characters or creators you want to follow and get a handle on those. Worry about the all-universe continuity stuff later (or not at all).
 
F

Freezasaurus

Member
Messi said:
It's a fucking awful thing to say to a friend. First time I have gotten angry at Lisa. Total dick move. Can't blame Ally for reacting how she did.
Click to expand...

Wasn't that part of the problem, though?
Ally was afraid that Lisa still only considered her a friend, and not something more.
 
M

Messi

Member
Freezasaurus said:
Wasn't that part of the problem, though?
Ally was afraid that Lisa still only considered her a friend, and not something more.
Click to expand...

Yeah but Lisa wants to be more also. It's what makes the whole situation akward. They both want the same thing and are terrified of saying it. When Lisa feels threatened by Ann she takes it out on Ally out of fear.

They need to talk that shit out.
 
B

BlueScrote

Member
MG310 said:
Worrying about the "When is this happening compared to what is happening with the same character in another book" is a good way to break your brain.

1. Yes

2. Yes but you don't have to know every little bit of it nor should anyone expect you to. There are important stories that have stayed with the characters over time but not everything matters. If a writer wants to reference something that happened in the past or is inheriting a new status quo then they will. Time passes in the real world and that is usually reflected in the world in which the characters exist but not so much for the characters themselves - some will age over time (X-Men, Spider-Man going from teens to 20/30 somethings), some will be eternally 25-35 years old and nobody will notice.

3. Just follow the characters you like. You're already reading the right books in New Avengers/Avengers for the stuff that has ramifications for the whole Marvel Universe. Usually that stuff is reserved for separate event books though. Believe me, they'll tell you when they are coming.
Click to expand...

This is right on the money. Continuity is only important if you make it important.
 
A

Afrodium

Banned
Thanks for helping with the continuity questions everyone. It's good to know it's just commonly accepted that comics are silly and people don't age and are in a million places at once and you just need to roll with it. This kind of what I've been doing, I just wasn't sure if hand waving was par for the course with comics.
 
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