Confederate Express (Kickstarted RPG) "postponed" while devs announce new game.
- Thread starter JDSN
- Start date
Their official response on the Knuckle Club page:
Not doing a lot to reassure their backers, I see.
LurkerPrime
Member
The preceding comments on the Knuckle Club Kickstarter are a bunch of "read all the comments" or "read the below posts" capped off by this:
Felix said:
The only reply from the developer (so far) is
Seems legit.
Leafhopper
Banned
Sure, does. Wow, at least explain, something.
Black Door
Banned
It's your money, and you are free to waste it as you wish.
The preceding comments on the Knuckle Club Kickstarter are a bunch of "read all the comments" or "read the below posts" capped off by this:
The only reply from the developer (so far) is
Seems legit.
Embarrasing. Updated the OP.
OniBarubary
Banned
Seeing as I've played a number of games I Kickstarted last and this year that sat well within my top 10, I'd say there was nothing wasteful about helping create those games that never would've gotten made.
Even as a backer of this, even with Kickstarter cynicism and trepidation all over this board, I still will continue backing projects I want to see and not let one or two problematic ones prevent me from doing so.
Kickstarter is fantastic. It has its problems but they are out shadowed more often than not.
Even as a backer of this, even with Kickstarter cynicism and trepidation all over this board, I still will continue backing projects I want to see and not let one or two problematic ones prevent me from doing so.
Kickstarter is fantastic. It has its problems but they are out shadowed more often than not.
Tertullian
Member
This can only turn out well.
Ziophaelin
Member
For the sake of transparency, Volgarr cost a lot more than our Kickstarter, but we paid for it out of our own pockets planning ahead of time (savings, etc.). Making video games is an expensive endeavor if you set out to make a high quality one with serious content (most of the time**). **Unless you are already rich, take a decade to make it and live in someone else's basement.
An easy way to do the math for me when I am looking for what KS to back is:
Where are they in the project? Just an idea? Half done? Mostly done?
What have they invested into their own project. If they are asking for money, how much have they personally invested into it. If I don't see a lion-share of personal investment, why should I believe in your project if you don't?
Something to note:
The average game developer salaries range from $35k per year to $100K+ per year depending on experience and job position. If the team size if 5 full time people and they are asking for $25k to pay for a year of development that is a red flag, with a few exceptions... for instance, they already developed the game and just need 25k to bring it to retail etc. Or have to pay for a single specialized contractor as stated earlier.
Add on top of that any physical reward costs and shipping costs and did they pad what they are asking for enough so that they have enough money left over to seriously make what they want to do. Odds are, if a project can't manage a simple budget they are likely going to have a hard time developing a full on game. That's my two cents
For the sake of transparency, Volgarr cost a lot more than our Kickstarter, but we paid for it out of our own pockets planning ahead of time (savings, etc.). Making video games is an expensive endeavor if you set out to make a high quality one with serious content (most of the time**). **Unless you are already rich, take a decade to make it and live in someone else's basement.
An easy way to do the math for me when I am looking for what KS to back is:
Where are they in the project? Just an idea? Half done? Mostly done?
What have they invested into their own project. If they are asking for money, how much have they personally invested into it. If I don't see a lion-share of personal investment, why should I believe in your project if you don't?
Something to note:
The average game developer salaries range from $35k per year to $100K+ per year depending on experience and job position. If the team size if 5 full time people and they are asking for $25k to pay for a year of development that is a red flag, with a few exceptions... for instance, they already developed the game and just need 25k to bring it to retail etc. Or have to pay for a single specialized contractor as stated earlier.
Add on top of that any physical reward costs and shipping costs and did they pad what they are asking for enough so that they have enough money left over to seriously make what they want to do. Odds are, if a project can't manage a simple budget they are likely going to have a hard time developing a full on game. That's my two cents
Would you say that 10k burn rate falls in line with your experience? I know that's just a rough guideline not some hard set rule as it is but just curious.
I agree. I've so far backed 10 projects and will be backing quite a few more (I promised to put 5% of my game's sales towards other projects in the future).
At the end of the day, if this confederate express thing doesn't see the light of day or is otherwise a stinker, I'm only out $15 and it's not the end of the world. I think the problem is more their attitude than my own loss of funds. If they handled this in a more transparent way I'd probably be less annoyed with them.
Meanwhile, we've seen some amazing Kickstarters with low goals end up funded and end up coming out. Some highlights that instantly jump to mind are Volgarr the Viking and Valdis Story, both of which are games that asked for 5 digit funding and both of which came out and delivered on their promises and then some. As long as people like this are out there and need funding to make their game, I'll be supporting projects.
bender
What time is it?
As if things couldn't get stranger, the latest comment on the Knuckle Club Kickstarter is a doozie:
I backed Confederate Express, at least I'll I'm getting some entertainment out of my $10 pledge. haha
I love Kickstarter as well as evidenced by my ~50 backed campaigns. The good has far outweighed the bad from what has been delivered. This is the first time I've felt scammed but I typically do the minimal pledge amount and go in with the expectation that nothing will be delivered.
yoyo said:
I backed Confederate Express, at least I'll I'm getting some entertainment out of my $10 pledge. haha
I love Kickstarter as well as evidenced by my ~50 backed campaigns. The good has far outweighed the bad from what has been delivered. This is the first time I've felt scammed but I typically do the minimal pledge amount and go in with the expectation that nothing will be delivered.
Things are getting strange. I've always wondered how easily KS could be abused if you are someone who specializes in making attractive prototypes but doesn't actually bother making a full game. You could get big returns on relatively small work.
(I hope I'm wrong on that implication I just made; if it turns out that these dudes are legit and the game comes out, I'll gladly come back and apologize.. but, wow, do things look really bad right now)
These buffoons are giving Kickstarter a bad name.
I have become so wary of nice little pixel art games like this one. Sure you've got some fun animations, but where's the gameplay?
I have become so wary of nice little pixel art games like this one. Sure you've got some fun animations, but where's the gameplay?
They've bungled this so badly I can't help but think they aren't intentional scammers. Nobody that was actively trying to steal could have though launching another kickstarter like this was actually going to succeed after delaying the 1st game when they said it was a mysterious venture capitalist that wanted them to work on Knuckle Club. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, that sort of thing.
If these guys are legit, they have honestly chosen the worst possible way to launch their second Kickstarter. My understanding based on looking through the updates and history of the project is that they got funded at the end of last year, but didn't reach all the stretch goals. Their claim was that they were approached by some venture capitalists to help them finish another project, in exchange for external funding for all the remaining stretch goals.
So from the moment the Kickstarter ended, they have been working on something other than what it was funded for. In March they apparently promised that this other project would be finished and released by April, so they would then start on Confederate Express (the game which was funded in the first place).
It took until July for them to come out and reveal that this other project is.... another Kickstarter project which they're trying to fund. What happened to the venture capitalists? What happened to it just being a side project which was almost complete? It's complete nonsense. What's also worrying is that the developer's website is now entirely plastered with Knuckle Club stuff, complete with pre-order pages via Paypal and Amazon, but no sign of Confederate Express at all. It's as if they just decided to move on.
Definitely doesn't look good!
So from the moment the Kickstarter ended, they have been working on something other than what it was funded for. In March they apparently promised that this other project would be finished and released by April, so they would then start on Confederate Express (the game which was funded in the first place).
It took until July for them to come out and reveal that this other project is.... another Kickstarter project which they're trying to fund. What happened to the venture capitalists? What happened to it just being a side project which was almost complete? It's complete nonsense. What's also worrying is that the developer's website is now entirely plastered with Knuckle Club stuff, complete with pre-order pages via Paypal and Amazon, but no sign of Confederate Express at all. It's as if they just decided to move on.
Definitely doesn't look good!
Zomba13
Member
I don't like the idea of starting a kickstarter for a game then postponing it partway through dev to start work on another game which you are also kickstarting.
It's unlikely it's a scam like people keep saying. A scam implies someone is being intentionally deceitful and wants your money. This seems more like a small, unknown dev getting caught up in all that kickstarter money for their game, realising they aren't having that much fun working on it and want to do something else and try the kickstarter route for their new baby hoping it gets them some more money and they get to take a break from their original project.
Now, obviously that wouldn't please anyone and you'd have to be a fool to think people would be ok with you dropping a project you crowdfunded to work on another project you are also crowdfunding but I don't think the devs are scamming people. I believe they intend to deliver a game in some form but whether it's Confederate Express, Knuckle Club or whatever they want to do next when they get board of what they are doing now I don't know and I don't think they know.
It's unlikely it's a scam like people keep saying. A scam implies someone is being intentionally deceitful and wants your money. This seems more like a small, unknown dev getting caught up in all that kickstarter money for their game, realising they aren't having that much fun working on it and want to do something else and try the kickstarter route for their new baby hoping it gets them some more money and they get to take a break from their original project.
Now, obviously that wouldn't please anyone and you'd have to be a fool to think people would be ok with you dropping a project you crowdfunded to work on another project you are also crowdfunding but I don't think the devs are scamming people. I believe they intend to deliver a game in some form but whether it's Confederate Express, Knuckle Club or whatever they want to do next when they get board of what they are doing now I don't know and I don't think they know.
And_Gignac
Member
Kickstarter needs an stricter legal regulation. This kind of shit are crimes.
I'm confused as to why Kickstarter doesn't have a rule of some kind that if a previous Kickstarter project hasn't been fulfilled yet, a new Kickstarter isn't able to be started. I know that it may stifle some projects, but it seems that they would be more interested in coming up ways to ensure that buyers are offered some assurance - otherwise people would be less likely to back in the future.
With that said - this is a bit of a shame. I didn't back Confederate Express, but I was interested in the project. It looked kind of interesting.
With that said - this is a bit of a shame. I didn't back Confederate Express, but I was interested in the project. It looked kind of interesting.
They'd just make a new account.
I generally stick to people I trust when it comes to kickstarting:
There's a huge difference between kickstarting a bunch of random dudes who don't even have an alpha out, and say, kickstarting a team that includes the lead designer of Civ V and Stardock's lead artist. The latter is much more likely to know how to get a project out.
Look at duckroll's post above - they claimed that venture capitalists offered to fund Confederate Express to complete the stretch goals, if they finished work on Knuckle Club for them. Now that they're revealed Knuckle Club, we see that it's another Kickstarter project. What happened to the venture capitalists?
Even if it wasn't intentional, it's still deceitful and I'd consider it a scam, no two ways about it.
Slimy and scammy. They can't get away with this stuff when KS has a comments section.
It's too bad, because the pitch for Confederate Express was strong. If they had just finished that game, they could have gotten some coverage and built a fanbase, who would have happily backed a project like Knuckle Club.
At this point I don't see any way for them to salvage the situation, short of cancelling this KS and releasing Confederate Express in short order. I think this is the last we'll hear from Kilobyte.
edit: Their "staff" section reads like "my roomates and my friends from the pub". It includes a talent scout and a guy in charge of "automating production workflow", but no programmer.
edit 2: And only 40% of the KS will go to development. So $10,000 to pay six people for five months.
It's too bad, because the pitch for Confederate Express was strong. If they had just finished that game, they could have gotten some coverage and built a fanbase, who would have happily backed a project like Knuckle Club.
At this point I don't see any way for them to salvage the situation, short of cancelling this KS and releasing Confederate Express in short order. I think this is the last we'll hear from Kilobyte.
edit: Their "staff" section reads like "my roomates and my friends from the pub". It includes a talent scout and a guy in charge of "automating production workflow", but no programmer.
edit 2: And only 40% of the KS will go to development. So $10,000 to pay six people for five months.
Stinkdeken
Neo Member
Good.
Also, it seems they are really confident that the game is getting done since they removed the link from the Kickstarter and turned it into a pre-order page.
Rockpapershotgun comments on this and the Yogcast thingy.
Or they are afraid that potential backers will read the comments on the kickstarter's page. Every comment is basically saying it's a scam,
Exactly. Let people get burned and rationalize their bad decisions. I'll watch the fireworks from a distance.
Its July. Did they get to it right away or its only yesterday that they started working on it?
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Not sure. Is that why this is significantly different in people's minds from Double Fine kickstarting another project before they had delivered Broken Age? Because it looks like Knuckle Club has been given priority in order of development?
I guess that seemed apparent to me in the December update. *shrug*
RicoTheMad
Banned
It's sickening to me to see other developers treating their fans in this way. I mean seriously, you don't even have one game released under your belt and already you're destroying the good will of the people who believe in you.
Honestly, I think the best thing that could happen to them is that everyone turns their backs on them and all their future games. People like these don't deserve our money, give it to people like Larian instead (Divinity: original sin).
I don't think Kickstarter is dead but people do need to watch out for scam artists. Since KS and Steam Early access have proven themselves to be able to get people a lot of money on occasion, it's guaranteed that there will be less savory types trying to abuse the system for personal gain.
It really irks me to see these KS failures like these because it feels like KS is slowly losing credibility.
Honestly, I think the best thing that could happen to them is that everyone turns their backs on them and all their future games. People like these don't deserve our money, give it to people like Larian instead (Divinity: original sin).
I don't think Kickstarter is dead but people do need to watch out for scam artists. Since KS and Steam Early access have proven themselves to be able to get people a lot of money on occasion, it's guaranteed that there will be less savory types trying to abuse the system for personal gain.
It really irks me to see these KS failures like these because it feels like KS is slowly losing credibility.
For starters, I was a bit critical of doublefine at the time when they KS's a second project before the first was delivered. I remember not being a big fan of that.
What makes this worse is the shady nature they're going about it -- The inconsistency in their statements (they said they got venture capital to do the second game first, but then they're KSing the second game), the lack of any mention of the original KS in the new KS, and so on and so forth.
Double Fine has multiple teams. Production on Broken Age didn't stop when Massive Chalice started. They didn't shelve one for the other like this developer is doing.
So more bullshit then? They would have saved trouble by delivering on their promises.
There was a considerable backlash to the second kickstarter after the first one was struggling, so the mindhive argument stops right there. That second KS probably affected the amount of money they got. There is also the fact that DF can sustain more than one teams and that they have proven this in the past, so the development of one probably didnt affect the other. Either way, they commiting themselves to working on another game causing a potential delay and announcing this only after the funding was done is a shady move, so you might have now it about it since December but all backers should have known since before the Kickstarter was finished.
If you say so.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Not exactly, or necessarily. The whole point of PR and marketing is that you can manage expectations. That's why pro teams save up assets and announcements and plan that shit to dribble out, because dev doesn't produce them in a PR timetable.
However the multi-project dev is planned out, you would have to actually have something to show periodically for both projects, it's not just a PR bullshit phrase. It's a job that goes undone too often.
That update also indicates:
A.) The new project is already funded
and
B.) It will only take 2-3 months to complete.
As that was posted in December, the project should have been finished by the end of April, at the latest. Instead, it is mid-July and they are attempting to Kickstart it, indicating that major work is yet to be done.
Also, the DoubleFine situation was different in that DF made clear that it would be a different team working on Massive Chalice, and that work would not cease on Broken Age. This is entirely different.
They also claim it will be out by the end of the year, but I'm still trying to find some substantial gameplay footage of their rather ambitious proposal (RPG elements, branching and optional paths, destructible environments, etc.).
All they've got is some pretty .gifs and a lot of promises.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Oof. Missed that.
Also I'm not championing anything here. These guys fucked up, we all agree, and I'm just bandying about some thoughts as to how. No matter what dumb thing you end up doing you make it worse by misrepresenting yourself and being completely tone-deaf as to your backers' expectations.
NeededSleep
Member
More_Badass
Member
Same here
I've backed eight games so far and except for Confederate Express, each one has seen consistent progress and regular updates from devs. Hell, Rain World gets daily updates over on TIGForum. Catacomb Kids is on Alpha 3, dev is super active. Four Sided Fantasy, Olympia Rising, Heart & Slash, SuperHOT, Hyper Light Drifter...I trust these devs, they keep their backers informed
I'm not ready to jump on the scam bandwagon just yet, mainly because I'm still in denial mode and CE looked awesome, but I am disappointed and annoyed and frustrated. I maintain the 2014 Kickstarter thread, I've seen that it works, that it's an incredibly helpful avenue for developers, and then this happens and gives Kickstarters a bad name.
More_Badass
Member
New update from the dev:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/829559023/confederate-express/posts/920492
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/829559023/confederate-express/posts/920492
Purple Cheeto
Member
I can 100% attest to this. I worked on a Kickstarted game that asked for something like $20k and then later secured something like $200k in funding from a VC company.
The game they delivered was only vaguely like what was promised in the Kickstarter, and the project was massively hit with feature creep and re-designs as they tried to tailor it more to the wishes of people with lots of money than to the wishes of the KS.
I'm glad the developer did such a great job explaining why the project that was nearly completed back in December and only needed 2-3 months of work suddenly had a Kickstarter campaign launched for it.
Don't forget the fact that there's a mysterious investor group who is willing to throw a lot of money at various things behind the scenes but is apparently unwilling to fund their own game, it appears.
That's my biggest beef with that "clarification". Also, that they'd hire the guy, buy his company but delay his game only so that their own unfinished game would get released first.
demigod
Member
I like how that update was already covered by gaffers 3 days prior.
That doesn't seem to explain what is happening with Knuckle Club. If he is an employee now, it means he could get fired. If the company that owns all his tech and assets now really only wants to do Knuckle Club, and Knuckle Club is totally going to tank on Kickstarter, why are they still selling it on their official site? Will there be refunds? What if the company decides this wasn't worth their time and pulls out? What happens then? Doesn't add up!