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[Vieo]

I am cry. =(

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/2/inktomi205164.php

--------------------------
Continuing Decline in Computer Science Graduates Expected

The IT Professionals Association of America (ITPAA, Inc) expects the number of Computer Science degrees to continue declining in line with demand due to outsourcing and H-1b, L-1 visa abuse.

(PRWEB) February 4, 2005 -- The IT Professionals Association of America, (ITPAA, inc www.itpaa.org) does not see any end to the decline of students pursuing degrees in Computer Science any time soon. Scott Kirwin, founder of the group states that shortage concerns voiced by industry leaders such as Microsoft, HP, and IBM are overblown.

"People vote with their feet," Kirwin says. "Salaries continue to decline in IT, and entry-level positions for new graduates are hard to come by since most of these have been offshored to India and China. Given that the average college student graduates with $50,000 in debt, it makes sense that he or she would avoid fields such as IT that are disappearing, and go into those that provide the income necessary to pay back that debt."

Kirwin believes that outsourcing and labor dumping - a term coined by Kirwin to describe flooding the American labor market with foreign workers - are to blame. "Pro-offshoring and pro-labor dumping industry sponsored groups like the IT Association of America (ITAA) and Compete America want talent, but they don't want to pay for it - so they head abroad to find that talent on the cheap. The free market goes both ways," he says. "If there are too many American IT workers, then their salaries go down and people avoid the field. If salaries began rising, then people would become interested in the field again, but that hasn't happened, nor do we expect it to anytime soon."

Kirwin believes that the IT industry has become hooked on cheap labor and has lost the ability to find the value of American IT professionals. "We see it in the lack of innovation across the board. There has been no major advance in software engineering in a decade, nor in hardware engineering or technical design - all fields that have been sent abroad."

"Americans are extremely creative and the most productive people on the planet," Kirwin states, "Yet that creativity and productivity has been ignored by the industry in pursuit of a few less dollars an hour."

Kirwin remains extremely pessimistic about IT in the USA. "I'm not much for doomsaying," he says, "but it's hard to avoid thinking that way when you look at the state of the IT field today. It's gone, and what little remains is packing its bags." He believes that the United States will soon be under pressure in other areas because of outsourcing and labor dumping.

"Banks like Citibank and JP Morgan-Chase have educated tens of thousands of foreign nationals in banking and the backoffice that supports it. HP and IBM have taught tens of thousands of software designers and engineers. While HP executives like Carly Fiorina may not harbor patriotic or nationalistic feelings for their own nation, those they trained do - and will act to build their home banks and service firms to compete against America."

When asked what solution he believes is necessary, Kirwin demurs. "I really believe it's too late. I've studied the problem for three years now, and I don't see any solution beyond letting the so-called 'creative destruction' force of the market go forward."

"In a sense," Kirwin adds, "it's justice. American firms thought they could get something for nothing by firing Americans and hiring foreigners, and now the foreigners are coming back to compete with them. The people who gained from offshoring jobs will now be the ones who suffer, and the declining enrollment in Computer Sciences is only the beginning."

-------------------


Hey, do you think eventually jobs in game design will be outsourced too?

 

[Nerevar]

Hey, do you think eventually jobs in game design will be outsourced too?

They already are.



And in my experience, in IT, companies that are content to offshore are doing so only because they are aware that it is better to offer a mediocre product at a lower price than a great product at a higher price. It's the wal-mart syndrome applied to IT, and it's kinda sad.

 

[shuri]

There's colleges here that dropped the computer science program completly since theres wasnt enough students.

 

[Pedigree Chum]

Hey, do you think eventually jobs in game design will be outsourced too?

No, but going by what the fomer head of Bungie is doing, I'm expecting to see more and more contractual development. That would blow for people, but considering the rising cost of game dev, I expect it to happen.

 

[Vieo]

I'm a computer science major, but I haven't gone in too far yet(three more semesters and I could have my associate's, two if a buckled down and stopped bullshitting. =P).

Before I took up computer science, I looked at Computer Information Systems. Is that like setting up networks, software, etc? Are those being outsourced too?

I'm thinking of changing my major to Information Systems and putting computer science on the back-burner for now. In general, I'd really like to get a job programming, but I want to look at this realistically, so does anyone know of anything in the IT field that isn't being pushed overseas? =(

 

[Vieo]

There's colleges here that dropped the computer science program completly since theres wasnt enough students.

This I believe. I had to wait a semester before I could even take C++ because they didn't have enough students majoring in CS to take the class.

 

[fart]

thank god

 

[marko]

Yeah, as an existing computer employee not that far removed from college, I don't mind seeing less graduates in CS coming out . Then again, might give companies more reason to move jobs out of US, but really, they can't move them all out.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

people in foreign countries will do our jobs for less....but then companies need the people in this economy to buy shit kinda backward...

 

[Azih]

Nonono Donasaurus. Y'see what you're expected to buy all kinds of crap and ring up a huge credit card bill and then spend your life paying off the interest by working at your McJob and scrimping by buying groceries at Walmart.

 

[LakeEarth]

To think that I almost went into computer science, just changing my mind at the last second before applying for undergrad.

 

[Loki]

Nonono Donasaurus. Y'see what you're expected to buy all kinds of crap and ring up a huge credit card bill and then spend your life paying off the interest by working at your McJob and scrimping by buying groceries at Walmart.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[teiresias]

Nonono Donasaurus. Y'see what you're expected to buy all kinds of crap and ring up a huge credit card bill and then spend your life paying off the interest by working at your McJob and scrimping by buying groceries at Walmart.

Actually, you'll work two or three McJobs, a situation which our great President Bush likes to call "uniquely American."

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashss.htm
And just so we don't have to give drudge anymore hits than absolutely necessary here's the article:

Last Friday when promoting social security reform with 'regular' citizens in Omaha, Nebraska, President Bush walked into an awkward unscripted moment in which he stated that carrying three jobs at a time is 'uniquely American.'

While talking with audience participants, the president met Mary Mornin, a woman in her late fifties who told the president she was a divorced mother of three, including a 'mentally challenged' son.

The President comforted Mornin on the security of social security stating that 'the promises made will be kept by the government.'

But without prompting Mornin began to elaborate on her life circumstances.

Begin transcript:

MS. MORNIN: That's good, because I work three jobs and I feel like I contribute.

THE PRESIDENT: You work three jobs?

MS. MORNIN: Three jobs, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that. (Applause.) Get any sleep? (Laughter.)

 

[Loki]

Actually, you'll work two or three McJobs, a situation which our great President Bush likes to call "uniquely American."

Yeah man-- I mean, don't you know that the reason that Americans work (by far) the most hours of any industrialized nation is because, well, our work ethic is just that damned strong. It has nothing at all to do with declining real wages, rising pressure from employers who hold the outsourcing trump card, and evaporating benefits packages. Nope, nothing at all to do with any of that. Americans actually don't want to spend time with their families, or on their hobbies, or to, you know, sleep. No-sir-ee Bob-- they love their work too damned much.

 

[fennec fox]

If you are done derailing the thread with the same old Bush-whining, I'd like to state the real reason why there are fewer CS grads: CS, and the jobs associated with it, are totally boring. Seriously, it drains any enjoyment of computing you may have had before joining the program.

Computer engineering, on the other hand, is tons 'o fun.

I majored in CS and minored in Japanese, and I certainly use the latter a great deal more than the former nowadays.

 

[Dilbert]

I'd like to state the real reason why there are fewer CS grads: CS, and the jobs associated with it, are totally boring.

So you're saying the economy has nothing to do with it?

 

[sefskillz]

I finished my CS degree in December. Haven't found a job yet. I'm not too worried about my future... should I be? I considered going back to school for some type of business degree to go along with it, but maybe I just need my foot in the door.

 

[fennec fox]

So you're saying the economy has nothing to do with it?

That's a superb response that I wasn't expecting from my dumb post.

It's true that I exaggerate a little -- for me, CS got really dull by year three, but there was also the fact that in any school that's known for CS (I went to the Univ. of Illinois, which has very good computer-related programs), it's a given that you have to work your ass off on extra projects, etc. if you actually want to learn anything practically useful that'll qualify you for good jobs. It's something yer expected to do, as most of the latter-year classes are theory oriented and the university assumes you can figure out the actual implementations yourself, which dooms those who aren't really dedicated to their programming.

So it's like you're already pulling game-industry hours in college. Funk dat.

If you don't go hardcore on the extra projects and have a few finished productions under your belt by graduation...? Well, the sort of entry level job you'd be qualified for would have been taken by the H1-Bs when I graduated in 2001 and by Bangalore nowadays. I think that's the main reason why the non-passionate aren't going for CS anymore at this moment.

Of course, university is all about pursuing what you think you're interested in, so I've no regrets.

 

[Azih]

The good CS programs have *always* been like that. Thing is if you can get a good job after finishing the course (such as was the case before and during the bubble) then students will persevere and struggle through because the reward (good job, good career) is worth it.

The courses are the same as they were before, they haven't changed. The economy has.


As for outsourcing being a good thing. :shrug:


yesterday they came for the factory workers and I said nothing because I was not a factory worker, today they came for the accountants and the computer scientists and I said nothing for I am not of those professions, tomorrow they will come for the engineers etc etc....

Don't ask for whom the bell tolls mang

 

[BlackSalad]

There are tons of CS undergrads at university of utah (500+) go figure

 

[Loki]

yesterday they came for the factory workers and I said nothing because I was not a factory worker, today they came for the accountants and the computer scientists and I said nothing for I am not of those professions, tomorrow they will come for the engineers etc etc....

Don't ask for whom the bell tolls mang

:lol

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Nonono Donasaurus. Y'see what you're expected to buy all kinds of crap and ring up a huge credit card bill and then spend your life paying off the interest by working at your McJob and scrimping by buying groceries at Walmart.

very true.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Before I took up computer science, I looked at Computer Information Systems. Is that like setting up networks, software, etc? Are those being outsourced too?

I doubt it there will be people who always need their problems sovled by a real person and bitch at if they can't fix it
Working at a small office is good - you basically create the networks - know the ins and outs and are the holder to the key to the labyrinthe :lol

-unless you document it

 

[slayn]

All this offshoring means is that you gotta smart now. You can't be stupid with a CS degree and expect to get snatched up by a company.

This might come off as very, very offensive... but its easier to explain it this way so I don't care =P

the cheap CS people in other countries are like insects or ants or something. If you need a piece of software that is very well known and you want a large team of people to finish it reliably then outsourcing is what is done. The people have had all of the creativity sucked out of them and they do as they are told. Like machines writing software.

But in areas still being explored. Where the system being built is not well designed and needs to be created by intelligent people, then it will stay in the US.

And this all togethor is separate from IT (which this article seems to be talking about)
IT is a very boring job and its the kinda thing one does after going to devry or ITT tech or whatever those places are that I see commercials for.

The jobs that will stay here are the ones that are fun and challenging. So, if you are really good at CS and really love it I doubt you will have TOO hard a time finding a job.

If you ever seen Apoloo 13. There is the one scene where there is a team that needs to figure out a way to make a different filter work on the shuttle.

"We gotta make this filter, fit into the hole for this other filter, using nothing but that." Its that kinda job but applied to software that will always be around because then you need to have the best of the best in the CS world.

 

[slayn]

another thing I forgot to mention - its hard to realize how shitty CS graduates really are on average.

But by the time people graduate undergrad I would estimate roughly 30-40% actually know how to program. The problem is there is nothing stopping people form working on the projects in large groups such that they never learn anything. I was listening to some peopel talk to companies at the engineering fair recently and it was not uncommon to hear a conversation along the lines of:

"Heres this node data class for a link list, can you show me how you would traverse this list?"
"Uhh..."
*sigh* "I'll take your resume, we'll contact you in a week if you've been chosen."

or my favorite:

"whats the running time of quicksort in the average case?"
"uhh... log.... (watched the interviewers eyes for recognision)... log... n?"
"what about the the worst case?"
"uhh... I think that would just be... n?"

and I would guess its these retards of the earth that are thankfulyl slowing in signing up for CS.

And just as an added bonus, about a year ago there was a graduatin senior in CS that paid me $150 to help him with his project for this class we were in because he didn't know C++.

 

[fart]

That's a superb response that I wasn't expecting from my dumb post.

It's true that I exaggerate a little -- for me, CS got really dull by year three, but there was also the fact that in any school that's known for CS (I went to the Univ. of Illinois, which has very good computer-related programs), it's a given that you have to work your ass off on extra projects, etc. if you actually want to learn anything practically useful that'll qualify you for good jobs. It's something yer expected to do, as most of the latter-year classes are theory oriented and the university assumes you can figure out the actual implementations yourself, which dooms those who aren't really dedicated to their programming.

So it's like you're already pulling game-industry hours in college. Funk dat.

If you don't go hardcore on the extra projects and have a few finished productions under your belt by graduation...? Well, the sort of entry level job you'd be qualified for would have been taken by the H1-Bs when I graduated in 2001 and by Bangalore nowadays. I think that's the main reason why the non-passionate aren't going for CS anymore at this moment.

Of course, university is all about pursuing what you think you're interested in, so I've no regrets.

we've talked about this before fenky, so i won't cover the same ground again, but what i find really curious about what you've said is that you're implying that only the passionate are going for CS these days (which imo is as it should be, but unfortunately still not true), and in the same breath you're complaining that CS is terrible because it's not interesting and there's too much self-motivated work involved.

well anyways, i'm glad you enjoy your japanese language skills, i really am. i do think people should pursue what they enjoy, and i think the economic situation is resulting in a better situation, scientifically, because there is more room in schools right now for people who really want to contribute to the field, and not just make a quick buck after graduation.

ps, i'm still incredibly jealous. UofI CS is a fantastic program.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Funk dat.

"Why is it that every time I pick my nose, it's always full again in a few minutes? Funk dat!"

oh and the answer is because computers are for NERDS.

 

[Macam]

Hey, do you think eventually jobs in game design will be outsourced too?

As a former game designer, I could care less if the current pace of the industry continues. Granted, my experience was limited, and it had its moments, but to carry it as a career is to relish in masochism. Coincidentally enough, I'm back in school finishing up my CS degree, with potential plans to finish my initial engineering degree as well as a safety net. I'm certainly in no rush to get back into the real world in its entirety; school has benefits long missed once you leave it. +1 CS.

 

[shuri]

The whole thing about overdosing on computers when doing your computer science gig is true. Hell my day job is fixing computers for home users, and in the last year, i grew to absolutely HATE doing it. It's easy as hell, but now I hate having to go to people's places to open up their computers that is always placed under the fucking desk, with the case of course being all fuked up complete with the stripped screws, having to save the data of a 333mhz celeron with 128mb of ram from a broken 10gb hard drive.

I have a big exam today, and tonight I have to go install this hard drive to a client's house and copy over his partitions, but holy fuck all week i've been thinking about how I dont feel like doing that shit anymore. I cant stand working on half working ancient hardware. It's gonna take the whole evening to copy that crap over.

I just dont care anymore. I used to be very interesting and hyped about that years, but now, I cant tolerate it.

I've worked in several settings now, home support, small business support, and coding drone in a huge corporation, and I would say that I prefered the small business gig.

I had my own office, I could mess around on hardware all day and the computers were in a good state, and I had no pressure, except for some unexplainable networking issues due to the horrible state of our server.

Still it was great, I had fixed hours, and the support was trivial.

The coding job at the mega corporation felt like Office Space 2 : Return of the red Stapler. It was very well paid, but everything was controlled, and I kept starring at the screen 9 hours a day, coding away on boring projects. It's quite a mind killer.

The thing that sucks is that I had to turn down an offer to be the head of the IT departement *cough we were 3 people anyway cough* at the small business gig, because I had gotten the job at the big corporation. God I got owned in the long run :| but the money was too good :\

Conclusion, I'll never make the same mistake of going where teh money is ever again :|

 

[Vieo]

Bah. I think I'll use information systems as a safety net. All I know is I want to work with computers. That's about the only thing that interests me, that and being a forest ranger. :lol

 

[psycho_snake]

Theres eventually goign to be such a big drought that employers are going to have to make wages more appealing and increase them. i dont think its too much to worry about. the field i s a huge part of the world, so eventually a solution will be made.

 

[Tazznum1]

The problem was in the beginning with salaries too damn high. Then everyone ran over there to be an "IT" person.


Too much of anything is not a good thing. And before anyone jumps up and down about the money was on par with the job, just look around at how many people easily became one.

 

[Mashing]

Well, I physically work on machines for a living so if they want to outsource THAT, then they are more than welcome to try.

Customer: "Yes, my machine is not booting up"

10 mins later

Technician in China "We'll send someone right over"

10 days later

Technican from China "I'm here to fix your computer"

Customer: "Oh THAT? I fixed it 9 days ago"

Yup... that'll work wonders.

My point is that certain jobs in the IT industry can never be outsourced. You're always going to need someone to physically support the machines (unfortunately these are the lower paying jobs in the field).

 

[Azih]

Well, I physically work on machines for a living so if they want to outsource THAT, then they are more than welcome to try.

Customer: "Yes, my machine is not booting up"

10 mins later

Technician in China "We'll send someone right over"

10 days later

Technican from China "I'm here to fix your computer"

Customer: "Oh THAT? I fixed it 9 days ago"

Yup... that'll work wonders.

My point is that certain jobs in the IT industry can never be outsourced. You're always going to need someone to physically support the machines (unfortunately these are the lower paying jobs in the field).

That's not true. Where I work they're moving the hardware elsewhere, so the programmers are safe but the hardware guys are getting the boot. What's going to happen is that we're going to be moving to dumb terminals that'll be a monitor, input devices and a very broadband connection to the actual servers hundreds of miles away. The only hardware guys that'll be required here will be someone to replace monitors and stuff really.

Of course this isn't a typical thing as I'm in Toronto branch office of a corp and the servers are being moved to my companies North American head quarter in Houston. But the point is the wonder of high speed internet makes hardware maintenance just as vulnerable to outsourcing as software development.


And for the people who're going 'grunt programming in Asia, cool stuff in America!' get over yourself. Do you really think that Indian companies and the government are going to be standing still? Hah, those guys are investing not only in their infrastructure but also their educational facilities. Hell India has a CS program at one of their universities that EASILY rivals anything else in the world. And for the first time, immigrants to Western nations are GOING BACK. They're taking all the skills they've learned PLUS the entrepenurial spirit from here and they're going back there and setting up shop to grab as much business as they can get (They've got the skills, the know how, they've got the contacts in both places, they know they can get Indian talent to do sophisticated stuff at a fraction of the price, they'd be idiots NOT to take full advantage). PLUS Indian CS professors at top flight North American universities now have the option of making a great living back in the mother country and setting up programs (setting up their OWN departments! They're the heads!) that aren't rote learning but actually imparting creative software engineering problem solving ideas.

Microsoft has opened an actual development facility in Bangalore I believe. Drinky prolly knows more. But I doubt it's grunt stuff.

 

[CrunchyB]

"whats the running time of quicksort in the average case?"
"uhh... log.... (watched the interviewers eyes for recognision)... log... n?"
"what about the the worst case?"
"uhh... I think that would just be... n?"

and I would guess its these retards of the earth that are thankfulyl slowing in signing up for CS.

I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, but is it really vital to know this by heart?
Obviously any self respecting CS major should be familiar with quicksort (and linked lists!) and algorithm complexity but it isn't exactly trivial stuff.

I doubt you know the exact average complexity (me neither, but it took me 20 seconds to look it up, it's 1.386n lg n - 2.846n). Or all the possible optimizations that (might) help reduce the running time. I think it's enough to know that vanilla quicksort is the sorting algorithm of choice. But hey, that's just me.

The example of the CS graduate that can't even program C++ is shocking but not an isolated incident. I know of two similar cases. And I agree there, at the very least you should be able to do work with various programming languages, as a future CS professional it is your most important tool. If you lack the skill to pick up a new programming language in a reasonable amount of time (and to a reasonable level) you are clearly in the wrong field of science.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Our economic situation is screwed. No two ways about it. It extends well beyond I.T.

Just take a look at the vast disparity between minimum wage versus the cost of living.

It's pretty alarming, but after being laid off from my I.T. job, and being unable to find another job in the same State; I had to turn to a McJob and it's mind boggling to see the number of college graduates working at the same McJobs.

A four year degree is more or less treated like a High School Diploma these days. It's very saddening to see this happening to some of the bright young people I've worked with.

I've come to terms with the fact that the I.T. field here was never all that fabulous, and is still currently oversatured due to the number of I.T. workers laid off. I'm just going to hunker down with a couple McJobs, the problem being - securing a second one, these disposable jobs have blown their worth out of proportion and now go through involved screening processes trying to find company men and women who aren't just seeking a few extra dollars to make ends meet, but who legitimately want to be "Part of the Team".

That's all well and good. I can understand the desire to have dedicated workers, but let's be real - it's Wendy's, Target, or Wal-Mart.

Dude, if I show up at your doorstep wanting to make burritos - it's not my career choice, just look at my resume, I need the job for the f'ing money.

What's worse is how the McJob market has been streamlined by Uniscrew. Resume? What's that? Paper applications? Haw! Go to the Uniscrew powered website, fill out the standardized profiling test, and become a number in the ether.

The last I.T. "entry level" position I interviewed for was already severely undercutting the suggested salary range for the job by a couple thousand dollars. Still, I would have gladly taken it just to be doing what I enjoy.

I'm pretty disgusted with the current state of affairs. Both nationally and personally.

 

[Tazznum1]

Yet house prices are screaming upwards.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

If I'm not mistaken, aren't house prices rising due to the increase in home ownership?

I could be mistaken, but I've only been getting bits and pieces of information on home ownership versus rental from the local paper.

 

[Tazznum1]

Um, someone has to own the houses from the day they are built. I just don't get it though. If people are working McJobs and salaries are going down, how can you afford a house on the regular market - nevermind the prices are going sky high.

Who has this money? Especially in Jersey w/property taxes. I don't get it.

 

[RevenantKioku]

(I went to the Univ. of Illinois, which has very good computer-related programs)

Hey Fennec, U of I and studied Japanese. Did you go to KIT at any time?

 

[Azih]

Um, someone has to own the houses from the day they are built. I just don't get it though. If people are working McJobs and salaries are going down, how can you afford a house on the regular market - nevermind the prices are going sky high.

Who has this money? Especially in Jersey w/property taxes. I don't get it.

I would guess that down payments are getting smaller and smaller and people aren't balking at having a huge ass mortgage that they'll be paying off for the rest of their lives. House prices are set at what people are willing to pay, and if people are willing to be in monster crazy debt then the home builders and banks will gladly obilge.

Edit: Plus things aren't THAT bad, there's plenty of prosperity in America... mostly lawyers though :lol

 

[Bishman]

Ok, Computer Science degree is f'ing useless. What am I suppose to do if I want to get in the gaming biz? No CS degree or IT or Software Engineering... sigh. This sucks.

What degree(s) should I get to do something with computers or get into the gaming biz?

 

[Tazznum1]

Oral 101

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Edit: Plus things aren't THAT bad, there's plenty of prosperity in America... mostly lawyers though

The problem with "Prosperity in America" as it is, is that the money is staying with the money.

If you don't have the money, you're screwed. You can try to get it, but it's going to be a long hard battle.

I have to find the link to an interesting article I read recently about prosperity in America and the opportunities it affords. I'll dig it up. It does a better job of expressing itself than I do.

 

[rastex]

Ok, Computer Science degree is f'ing useless. What am I suppose to do if I want to get in the gaming biz? No CS degree or IT or Software Engineering... sigh. This sucks.

What degree(s) should I get to do something with computers or get into the gaming biz?

The gamebiz enjoys the ability to have very little need for outsourcing since the workers already work crazy hours for lower than average pay. Plus, the nature of game programming is that you NEED to have people around to solve problems, it's a collaborative effort, and I've worked with offshore people and it SUCKS. With gamedev you need almost instant turn around times, and when dealing with outsourced people there's only a 2-hour window that the workdays cross where communication can be done efficiently, but other than that it's like a 24-hour turnaround time.

There are of course parts of gamedev that can be outsourced like FMVs and title screens and that type of thing that's not really part of the core game. But in terms of the core game, it's very tough to outsource and right now, isn't really worth the effort. Of course that's me talking with my J-1 VISA.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

Maybe it's because people have figured out that most jobs in Computer Science are a borefest. I know, I'm a software engineer (and I'm bored to death).

 

[fennec fox]

Hey Fennec, U of I and studied Japanese. Did you go to KIT at any time?

What's that?

 

[tedtropy]

My Associates degree is in Computer Science and I'm kind of debating whether or not I should continue with a Bachelor's in it. I love technology to death, but having worked two part-time IT jobs, yeah, the work can sometimes get really repetitive and boring. I just took classes in it because it was always something I was fairly proficient at, not necessarily because I wanted to make a living doing it. Now I just sort of find myself continuing down the IT path because I gotta settle on a career one of these days and I'm not really sure what else I have a passion in. Apart from watching my ass grow as I play video games and watch TV, of course. The whole point of IT is automating things as much as possible, and therein, you're basically cutting your own throat. Outsourcing and remote solutions are the future of the industry, and it is going to continue to impact IT jobs, much as it presently is...

 

[slayn]

I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, but is it really vital to know this by heart?
Obviously any self respecting CS major should be familiar with quicksort (and linked lists!) and algorithm complexity but it isn't exactly trivial stuff.

I doubt you know the exact average complexity (me neither, but it took me 20 seconds to look it up, it's 1.386n lg n - 2.846n). Or all the possible optimizations that (might) help reduce the running time. I think it's enough to know that vanilla quicksort is the sorting algorithm of choice. But hey, that's just me.

The example of the CS graduate that can't even program C++ is shocking but not an isolated incident. I know of two similar cases. And I agree there, at the very least you should be able to do work with various programming languages, as a future CS professional it is your most important tool. If you lack the skill to pick up a new programming language in a reasonable amount of time (and to a reasonable level) you are clearly in the wrong field of science.

its not a CS person's job to memorize the time complexity of every algorithm. It IS a CS person'y job to be able to think about an algorithm and have a good idea of what it should be. I wasn't laughing so much at the fact that the guy got quicksort wrong, its that he answered with log n. I mean come on, think about that for a second. Thats like saying you could sort a bunch of index cards or something into alphabetical order without ever actually reading all the cards

 

[Fresh Prince]

I plan to be a teacher if the CS\IT field fails apparently male teachers are in high demand in Australia :lol

Pretty soon office administrators will be outsourced too.