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[JayDubya]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--trooperkilled1201dec01,0,7712773.story
http://www.wtvh.com/Story.aspx?NStoryID=3381

I remember GAF talking about those two border patrol agents a while back, and that sparked some interesting debate. In the interest of more interesting debate, here, another screwed up legal situation.

The central tenet of this case: the D.A. is charging someone for killing a state trooper by trying to escape from said trooper.

Dec 01, 2006 - SYRACUSE, N.Y. (AP) - A motorcyclist accused of leading a state trooper on a deadly chase at nearly 100 mph told investigators he saw the trooper behind him with his lights on and sped away to escape, according to the defendant's statement.

However, James Carncross repeatedly told investigators he wasn't certain the trooper was after him, according to his statement, which was read into evidence Friday by Onondaga County District Attorney William Fitzpatrick as the prosecution ended its case against the 21-year-old Jamesville man.

"I noticed the trooper as I was turning (onto Route 91). The trooper had his red lights on," Carncross said in the three-page statement he gave police on April 26, before his arrest.

"As soon as I saw the lights and heard the trooper behind me, I gave it gas. I did not know if he was after me or not," Carncross said.

Carncross is being tried on charges of aggravated second-degree manslaughter and aggravated criminally negligent homicide in connection with the death of Trooper Craig Todeschini.

Todeschini, 25, of Geddes, was killed April 23 when he wrecked his SUV in the hamlet of Pompey Hill, about 15 miles south of Syracuse, as he was rounding a curve in pursuit of the motorcyclist. On Thursday, a state police accident reconstruction expert said Todeschini was driving about 96 mph just moments before he lost control.

In his statement, Carncross said he had helped his father and friends work on his father's hot rod earlier in the day and decided to go "for just a Sunday ride by myself." It was the first time Carncross' statement has been made public.

He said the last time he saw the trooper behind him was near the Jamesville Reservoir, which is where authorities said the chase started and about seven miles from where Todeschini crashed.

"I don't even know my speed. I was just looking at the road," said Carncross, who added that he knew he was traveling "in excess" of the speed limit.

"I never saw the trooper behind me," Carncross said. "I wasn't even sure the cop was chasing me."

However, he admitted that "my intention was to make it back to my house without getting caught by the trooper."

When he arrived back home, Carncross told his father that he thought a trooper had chased him, according to the statement. He also told a friend about the encounter. However, Carncross said he was unaware of the trooper's death until he saw it on the 11 p.m. news.

"When I saw the news, I immediately thought the trooper had wrecked chasing me," he said.

Carncross was on probation from a grand larceny conviction at the time and was prohibited from owning or operating a motorcycle.

In June, he admitted riding his motorcycle on April 23 in violation of his probation and was sentenced to 1 1/3 to four years in state prison.

Defense attorney Salvatore Piemonte noted for jurors that in addition to freely talking to investigators, Carncross also consented to letting them see his motorcycle without a search warrant.

The prosecution ended its case with the county medical examiner, who testified that Todeschini died from massive internal injuries, including a severed aorta.

Piemonte began calling defense witnesses later Friday. His list of potential witnesses includes nearly 60 names. Testimony is scheduled to continue Monday.

As part of Carncross' defense, Piemonte has maintained that Todeschini caused his own death by driving recklessly and by not following state police pursuit procedures. He also has contends that Carncross did not know he was being pursued by Todeschini.

If convicted of either charge, Carncross could face a maximum penalty of up to 20 years in state prison.

So what do you folks think? If a cop chases a purse snatcher, trips, and cracks open his skull, is the purse snatcher criminally liable for the cop's fall, or merely just the act of stealing the purse?

 

[PocketMidget]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--trooperkilled1201dec01,0,7712773.story
http://www.wtvh.com/Story.aspx?NStoryID=3381

I remember GAF talking about those two border patrol agents a while back, and that sparked some interesting debate. In the interest of more interesting debate, here, another screwed up legal situation.

The central tenet of this case: the D.A. is charging someone for killing a state trooper by trying to escape from said trooper.



So what do you folks think? If a cop chases a purse snatcher, trips, and cracks open his skull, is the purse snatcher criminally liable for the cop's fall, or merely just the act of stealing the purse?

What happens to the cop is his faulty; however, he is put into this situation by the "criminal." But such is life.

 

[Fireblend]

That's interesting. I wouldn't charge the man tho; it wasn't his fault the cop crashed while chasing him, even if he was aware that he was being chased or not... There's also some validity to the whole thing tho. I'd blame chaos :O

 

[Donono]

yeah no. they assume the risk when they put on the uniform.

If the dude was shooting at the cop, then yeah. but he wasn't.

 

[KingGondo]

So what do you folks think? If a c...ore high-speed chases from occuring, as well.

 

[echoshifting]

Not enough information is provided by the story to decide one way or the other. For instance, was the road busy enough that the motorcyclist was putting other people in danger by driving recklessly? How long did the chase go on for? Did the officer lose him and then catch up later?

So what do you folks think? If a cop chases a purse snatcher, trips, and cracks open his skull, is the purse snatcher criminally liable for the cop's fall, or merely just the act of stealing the purse?

This isn't quite the same thing. A purse snatcher isn't driving a potentially deadly vehicle while fleeing from the cop. A motorcyclist is. There are certain responsibilities a person accepts before getting behind the wheel of a car or getting on a bike. Whatever else comes of this, the defendant was shirking these responsibilities by driving recklessly.

 

[JayDubya]

For instance, was the road busy enough that the motorcyclist was putting other people in danger by driving recklessly?

Given that he didn't hit anyone I'd say he had control of his vehicle at the speed he was driving. If he had hit someone he would be guilty of their manslaughter. But he didn't.

 

[echoshifting]

Given that he didn't hit anyone I'd say he had control of his vehicle at the speed he was driving. If he had hit someone he would be guilty of their manslaughter. But he didn't.

I think you are assuming too much here. The fact that he didn't hit anyone doesn't necessarily mean he had control of his vehicle; he might have just gotten extremely lucky.

The more I think about this the more I'm leaning towards saying the charge is justified.

 

[Mac the KNife]

Something similar happened where I live. An officer was pulling out of one of those medians on the highway and a car slammed into him and killed him. I think the person who hit him was being changed for his death.

In this case I wouldn't charge the guy for the cop's death. A high speed chase with an SUV doesn't sound very smart.

 

[JayDubya]

I think you are assuming too much here. The fact that he didn't hit anyone doesn't necessarily mean he had control of his vehicle; he might have just gotten extremely lucky.

The more I think about this the more I'm leaning towards saying the charge is justified.

For another thing, why is "not having control of your vehicle" considered criminal in the first place? If someone other than yourself or someone else's property gets hurt, yeah, you're responsible, both civilly and potentially criminally, but otherwise, why is it the state's business at all?

 

[Tauntaun]

In before "that pig-dog cop gets what he deserves; cause one time i was busted with drugs/alcohol and I should be able to do whatever i want b/c I'm 16 and know everything" post. kthnxbi

Spoiler

situations like this are tough. the guy was on probation and doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing; he knew this and ran at the first site of a cop. it's not his fault for the cop losing control of the car but at the same time if he'd have pulled over the cop wouldn't be dead. Let's put it this way, it wasn't premeditated and the guy certainly didn't want the cop to die, but it is the guy's fault for running from the 5-0, so I'd say some responsibility lies there.

 

[Shig]

If he saw the cop, started slowing down and looking for a place to pull over, then the cop got involved in an accident, I wouldn't say the was liable, not at all.

But he instigated an extended high-speed pursuit. Every liability for anything that happens as a result should be placed upon him..

 

[vasuba]

In before "that pig-dog cop gets what he deserves; cause one time i was busted with drugs/alcohol and I should be able to do whatever i want b/c I'm 16 and know everything" post. kthnxbi

Spoiler

situations like this are tough. the guy was on probation and doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing; he knew this and ran at the first site of a cop. it's not his fault for the cop losing control of the car but at the same time if he'd have pulled over the cop wouldn't be dead. Let's put it this way, it wasn't premeditated and the guy certainly didn't want the cop to die, but it is the guy's fault for running from the 5-0, so I'd say some responsibility lies there.

Yeah manslaughter is an appropriate charge in the fact its acknowledging the fact the guy wasn't out to kill the cop etc but it does make clear the guy put the situation in motion that led upto the situation.

Its all cause and effect here. Guy caused the effect which led to cops death thus he is responsible for the cops death.

 

[Nicodimas]

To me its like this:

If someone falsely calls 911, fire department responds and crashes and firefighters die.
the person who makes the call gets manslaughter.

To me this is the same. The person should have stopped.

I see no problem with this.

 

[Zaptruder]

Instead of blaming departmental policy of engaging in high speed chases, they slap the guy with manslaughter charges?

We understand you're pissed about losing a trooper on a patrol, but you don't think it's got anything at all to do with the chase em down first ask questions second policy?

A speeding trooper is nearly as dangerous as a speeding motorist... both have potential for great harm to themselves and other motorists on the road.

If the trooper didn't give chase, the motorist wouldn't engage in highspeed getaways.

If a motorist is speeding excessively, do what you can to take down their numbers then pay them a visit AFTER they've stopped their vehicles and are at home and arrest them for wreckless endangerment.

Similarly, this guy deserves some hefty charges... but lets stick with what he did actually do; wreckless endangerment... and not some cocked up charges of manslaughter.

 

[vasuba]

Instead of blaming departmental policy of engaging in high speed chases, they slap the guy with manslaughter charges?

We understand you're pissed about losing a trooper on a patrol, but you don't think it's got anything at all to do with the chase em down first ask questions second policy?

A speeding trooper is nearly as dangerous as a speeding motorist... both have potential for great harm to themselves and other motorists on the road.

If the trooper didn't give chase, the motorist wouldn't engage in highspeed getaways.

If a motorist is speeding excessively, do what you can to take down their numbers then pay them a visit AFTER they've stopped their vehicles and are at home and arrest them for wreckless endangerment.

Similarly, this guy deserves some hefty charges... but lets stick with what he did actually do; wreckless endangerment... and not some cocked up charges of manslaughter.

Depends really how you look at it. The law definetly says the guy is guilty on a few areas. Vehicular Manslaughter, Criminal Negligent Manslaughter.

Both basically hinge on the fact you did something that broke the law that caused someone to die thus making you guilty intentional or not.

 

[Lakedaimon]

I say charge him. Im not sure where this new trend of giving a criminal a "sporting chance" to elude the cops comes from. The legal system can be manipulated easily enough as it is already, there is no need for some kind of "trial by (high speed) combat" to get away with your crimes.

If the police signal you to pull over, and you refuse to, you are commiting a crime. If people are injured or die because of the criminal situation you have created, you are responsible. The cop didnt make you commit a crime, nor the legislator who codified such an infraction. Hold people accountable when they screw up.

I think the 911 call is a good analogy. Likewise if you yell fire at a crowded movie theatre and someone is trampled by a third party while you sit quietly in your seat its still your fault.

 

[xBigDanx]

If the trooper didn't give chase, the motorist wouldn't engage in highspeed getaways.

lol.. I know what you are saying, it just sounds funny when you say it like that. Yes, motorists always will engage in highspeed getaways. Do you think if someone is fleeing from the cops, they are going to say "Oh, the cop isn't chasing me, I will drive the speed limit and get the **** away" or are they going to say "I've got to get away from this cop as soon as possible" and drive fast.

The highspeed getaways will always occur - they'd just be shorter

 

[Zaptruder]

Depends really how you look at it. The law definetly says the guy is guilty on a few areas. Vehicular Manslaughter, Criminal Negligent Manslaughter.

Both basically hinge on the fact you did something that broke the law that caused someone to die thus making you guilty intentional or not.

Personally, I think the law should act as a deterrent... the guy shouldn't be any more guilty then if the cop didn't die. If you remove intent from punishment, it just becomes revenge and vindictiveness. Legally sanctioned maybe, but it doesn't help anyone but maybe the grieving feel a tad bit better, which has arguable merit, when weighed against the life and productivity of another person.

Whether or not that means you make the speeding laws harsher or not is another matter to decide.

 

[Zaptruder]

lol.. I know what you are saying, it just sounds funny when you say it like that. Yes, motorists always will engage in highspeed getaways. Do you think if someone is fleeing from the cops, they are going to say "Oh, the cop isn't chasing me, I will drive the speed limit and get the **** away" or are they going to say "I've got to get away from this cop as soon as possible" and drive fast.

The highspeed getaways will always occur - they'd just be shorter

True; but the point is the merit of catching speeders is far outweighed by the risk of reckless endangerment that a prolonged pursuit causes.

It's important to enforce the road rules, in order to keep the roads safe, yes, but it can be done in ways other than high speed pursuits.

 

[hiryu]

Manslaughter seems like an appropriate charge to me.

 

[GONZO]

This happened in my neck of the woods. And it was discussed to death among me and my friends since we're all riders. It's sad that the officer died, but it was his "choice" to chase the motorcycle. It was not his duty, he was on the opposite side of the highway. He could have easily gotten on the radio and alerted police ahead and then followed at his discretion. And that would have been preferable instead of engaging in a high speed pursuit in an SUV. The kid broke the law and he should be tried for those crimes but he can't be held responsible for the actions of the police officer. That would set a very scary precedent. Very sad, but it's just an unfortunate turn of events.

 

[JayDubya]

Personally, I think the law should act as a deterrent... the guy shouldn't be any more guilty then if the cop didn't die. If you remove intent from punishment, it just becomes revenge and vindictiveness. Legally sanctioned maybe, but it doesn't help anyone but maybe the grieving feel a tad bit better, which has arguable merit, when weighed against the life and productivity of another person.

Whether or not that means you make the speeding laws harsher or not is another matter to decide.

While I disagree with your philosophy of rehabilitation, we're mostly in agreement on this case.

For starters, I don't see why we have speed limits in the first place, but let's not go there quite yet. So he sped, and was then caught doing so, and thus a cop began to come after him with lights and sirens on.

He did not stop, this is called "Evading Arrest" and it's considered some sort of crime in most states even if the specifics are worded differently. This he's guilty of, even if the crime of speeding in and of itself is a bullshit crime.

The cop then rather than calling in backup, or a helicopter, or simply writing down his license plates to find him later, followed the motorcycle in a high speed pursuit in a vehicle not suited for it. The motorist hurt no one going at the speed he was going - if he had, he would be fully liable for that act, but he didn't. The cop failed to control his vehicle at the speed he was going, and died. The motorist did not run the cop off the road, or attack the cop, or attempt to do any harm to the cop. Through no action of his own, the cop died.

He's liable for evading arrest. For some reason he was prohibited from owning or riding a motorcycle, and he's liable for violating that too. By no means is he criminally responsible for the cop's death, however.

 

[Steriletom]

While this is a very sad situation...who the hell attempts to take a turn in an SUV while travelling at 160 kilometres per hour?! That's pretty much suicide.

 

[Az987]

is fleeing from a cop a felony?

If it is then the law says that anyone that dies while u are committing the act is ur responsibility if it is directly related to you doing it.

With this case, if the guy wouldnt have ran, the cop wouldnt have chased and wouldnt have crashed.

If the cop crashed into another car, hed be charged with that too.

 

[Zaptruder]

is fleeing from a cop a felony?

If it is then the law says that anyone that dies while u are committing the act is ur responsibility if it is directly related to you doing it.

With this case, if the guy wouldnt have ran, the cop wouldnt have chased and wouldnt have crashed.

If the cop crashed into another car, hed be charged with that too.

See, the problem with that is that by that logic... if cops take out a few innocent bystanders while trying to take you out, you're deemed liable for it.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Weird case but I can't see why the motorcyclist is responsible. The trooper took a curve at 96 mph in an SUV? Doesn't sound good in any case. Sounds like they are just trying to pin blame on the guy cuz he doesn't sound like a model citizen.

What if a trooper kills a kid by running him over while chasing you? Where does it end? Some times, cops have to take responsibility for enforcing the law and re-evaluate the tactics they use. I'm sorry for the trooper and generally like them but when I see this and the case in NYC where a plainscloths officer kills a guy the night before his wedding, I wonder if the police aren't overly aggressive. I think most reasonable people would agree that a highspeed chase that was precipitated by a traffic infraction that results in an innocent bystander dying is overaggressive. Not necessarily what happened here but that doesn't change my standing. Well, how is this situation any different? Why can't they identify the car and when the chase gets out of hand, pull back? Why was the trooper going at 95 mph in an SUV around a curve? I think everybody knows that's dangerous but there is such a huge push in America for making the arrest that police can lose sight of the greater good. Sometimes, it's not worth it. I would hate to be on the receiving end of a bad outcome due to overaggressive police enforcement. I would hate for my kid or uncle to get run over because a cop car was coming around a corner at 96 mph.

 

[tedtropy]

In situations like these we're never likely to know all the truths. Was this person actually fully unaware that he was being pursued? If not, and he made a direct attempt to evade arrest, then I think he's responsible for what occurred as a result of that chase. The moment you make that commitment to run from an officer, you should be liable for what occurs therein. On the same token I've seen some officers do some incredibly reckless things in pursuit of vehicles and it's possible this officer let his temper get the better of him or totally misjudged the situation. But at the end of the day, what do you do, continue to let asshole drivers endanger the roads without consequence? I say this as someone that has to go into court next Friday because of a ticket...

Either way, it's a horrible thing to happen and I pray for the officer's family. The guy's not a murderer, but I'd say he's far from innocent.

 

[Zaptruder]

In situations like these we're never likely to know all the truths. Was this person actually fully unaware that he was being pursued? If not, and he made a direct attempt to evade arrest, then I think he's responsible for what occurred as a result of that chase. The moment you make that commitment to run from an officer, you should be liable for what occurs therein. On the same token I've seen some officers do some incredibly reckless things in pursuit of vehicles and it's possible this officer let his temper get the better of him or totally misjudged the situation. But at the end of the day, what do you do, continue to let asshole drivers endanger the roads without consequence? I say this as someone that has to go into court next Friday because of a ticket...

Either way, it's a horrible thing to happen and I pray for the officer's family. The guy's not a murderer, but I'd say he's far from innocent.

No. You identify the vehicle, identify the license plate with help of a camera, back off and pay the guy a visit at his home and arrest him or fine him or whatever it is you'd do otherwise.

 

[vasuba]

The guy seems to contradict himself a lot. first he says he wasn't aware of an officer following him then he says he didn't know if the speeding officer with lights and sirens were for him.

Then he goes on to say he doesnt know what speed he was going but admits it was well above legal speeds.

"I never saw the trooper behind me," Carncross said. "I wasn't even sure the cop was chasing me."

However, he admitted that "my intention was to make it back to my house without getting caught by the trooper."

Guy is one huge contradiction and by the law he is guilty.

 

[tedtropy]

No. You identify the vehicle, identify the license plate with help of a camera, back off and pay the guy a visit at his home and arrest him or fine him or whatever it is you'd do otherwise.

A license plate number isn't some direct link to a person's life. There's plenty of stolen plates, vehicles, or just plain people intentionally not using accurate information out there. Plus tracking the person down later doesn't stop them from hurting someone in the midst of driving like a moron. You assume that they will immediately resume driving like normal out of the site of a patrol car.

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

The guy on the motorcycle was on probation, and shouldnt have been riding the motorcycle. Given rules of the road, if you see a police officer behind you with its lights on you pull over, and you are responsible for your speed. If the guy didnt know how fast he was going, then he shouldnt be on the road. Telling an officer, "i didnt know how fast i was going" isnt an excuse to get out of a ticket. His privilege of driving was taken away, and he was breaking the law. Sounds like maybe he didnt want to be pulled over, to get in trouble again.

 

[Az987]

See, the problem with that is that by that logic... if cops take out a few innocent bystanders while trying to take you out, you're deemed liable for it.

Yup but thats how it works. Say you try to rob a bank, crappy cop pulls his gun but shoots 5 people, your responsible for all of them criminally.

But I realized thats not the case hear because he would have been charged with felony murder and not manslaughter

 

[Meier]

If he saw the cop, started slowing down and looking for a place to pull over, then the cop got involved in an accident, I wouldn't say the was liable, not at all.

But he instigated an extended high-speed pursuit. Every liability for anything that happens as a result should be placed upon him..

No question. The guy admits he was fleeing in hopes of escaping the situation.. his actions are what caused the cop's death. He should be charged for it.

 

[C4Lukins]

IMO, at the point in which you force the officers into a high speed chase, you are the one creating the dangerous situation. His statement sounds like complete BS, the chase seemed to have gone on for 7 miles, and the guy should be charged with manslaughter because his illegal actions directly lead to the death of another person.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

is it fair? Maybe not. But thats why you don't run from the cops and put yourself in that situation. I dont' feel sorry for idiots.

 

[Steriletom]

The guy seems to contradict himself a lot. first he says he wasn't aware of an officer following him then he says he didn't know if the speeding officer with lights and sirens were for him.

Then he goes on to say he doesnt know what speed he was going but admits it was well above legal speeds.

"I never saw the trooper behind me," Carncross said. "I wasn't even sure the cop was chasing me."

However, he admitted that "my intention was to make it back to my house without getting caught by the trooper."

Guy is one huge contradiction and by the law he is guilty.

The motorcyclist does not contradict himself, although I can see how you got the impression that he does due to the news article not being very clear in its language.

Effectively, what he is saying is that he saw the police officer turn on his lights and decided to gas it without knowing whether the cop was in pursuit of him or someone else. After gassing it, he did not see the officer again, as he was focused solely on the road(which you would have to be, going at those speeds). As for the statement about his speed, I don't see how you are contradicting yourself by saying that you don't know what speed you were travelling, but admitting that it was well above the legal limit.

I also don't think you are qualified to state whether he is guilty by law or not. You'd have to have studied law to be able to put forth an educated opinion on the matter, anything else is simply armchair analysis.

 

[dammitmattt]

A license plate number isn't some direct link to a person's life. There's plenty of stolen plates, vehicles, or just plain people intentionally not using accurate information out there. Plus tracking the person down later doesn't stop them from hurting someone in the midst of driving like a moron. You assume that they will immediately resume driving like normal out of the site of a patrol car.

You win.

It is absolutely irresponsible to have a policy to let all speeders run. That policy would be hopelessly abused and we'd all be much worse off since all criminals would have an easy escape route FOR ANYTHING.

 

[Tortfeasor]

The legal concept in play here is called proximate causation.

 

[tedtropy]

The legal concept in play here is called proximate causation.

A bitchin' name for a band if ever I heard one.

 

[Bezz]

Why would you charge somebody for something he didnt do?

 

[GONZO]

You guys seem to think that the cop was right behind the motorcyclist trying to catch up. This just isn't true at all, by the time the suv went into the other side of the highway to engage in the pursuit the bike was flat out gone. I don't know if anyof you ride but on the highway you looking at acceleration rates that approach f1 face cars. it's no streatch to say that when the officer crashed he was at least a couple miles away from the bike, hoping to catch him. There was no reason for the officer to endanger his life in that way. And in further defense the motorcyclist turned himself in after he found out the officer died. The kid isn't a good guy, he deserves to be fully prosecuted for his crimes, but murder just aint one of them.

 

[Takuan]

I bet the guy was bragging to his friend that he got away. Karma.

 

[TheOMan]

You guys seem to think that the cop was right behind the motorcyclist trying to catch up. This just isn't true at all, by the time the suv went into the other side of the highway to engage in the pursuit the bike was flat out gone. I don't know if anyof you ride but on the highway you looking at acceleration rates that approach f1 face cars. it's no streatch to say that when the officer crashed he was at least a couple miles away from the bike, hoping to catch him. There was no reason for the officer to endanger his life in that way. And in further defense the motorcyclist turned himself in after he found out the officer died. The kid isn't a good guy, he deserves to be fully prosecuted for his crimes, but murder just aint one of them.

I don't know if the guy should be charged with manslaughter or not according to the law, but what GONZO says here is absolutely correct. No way that SUV was anywhere near the bike when he gunned it, *especially* if the SUV had to turn around. I hate to say it, but it sounds like the cop did not have control of his vehicle and didn't know the limits of it. Is that the motorcyclist's fault? I don't know :/

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

The guy seems to contradict himself a lot. first he says he wasn't aware of an officer following him then he says he didn't know if the speeding officer with lights and sirens were for him.

Then he goes on to say he doesnt know what speed he was going but admits it was well above legal speeds.

"I never saw the trooper behind me," Carncross said. "I wasn't even sure the cop was chasing me."

However, he admitted that "my intention was to make it back to my house without getting caught by the trooper."

Guy is one huge contradiction and by the law he is guilty.

I don't know that this is so much a contradiction as us not knowing the details.

Chances are that he is relating the story that he saw the cop pull out and turn on his lights (keep in mind the cop was on the other side of the road) and at that point he was already going pretty fast (enough to prompt the cop to pull out).

Once he sees the lights on, he guns it and gets far enough away to reasonably not know whether the cop is actually pursuing him, but he still tries to get home as fast as possible to avoid a ticket in case the cop is still back there.

If you think of a motorcycle that is probably doing 80 mph on a reasonably curvy road (the cop died on a turn, that's all that I have to go on) and THEN gunning it to get away ... vs. an SUV at a stop, taking a U-turn, then getting up to speed ... There's no contest that that bike made enough ground for him to not know whether the cop was still pursuing him. That is if this was a forested area with any degree of regular curves.

Seriously, the guy was just being stupid trying to avoid a ticket/arrest ... He deserves a stiff penalty for that ... but not for killing anyone.

I don't think half of you understand what prison is like and are waaaay too eager to just throw people there for 20 years.

 

[tsp_gatmog]

yeah no. they assume the risk when they put on the uniform.

what if i told you the cop was undercover?

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

The dude is an idiot for running.

Shame the cop died, but why on earth would you try to chase down a bike in an suv?

 

[Pimpwerx]

That cop put himself in danger. Call for backup, call in a roadblock, call in a chopper, or just take the plate and cut your losses. You don't chase a bike in an SUV. Hell, for a motivated criminal in decent traffic, you don't chase a bike at all. They can slow for traffic and then get back up to full speed a lot better than a patrol car or SUV.

The guy is guilty of violating his probation, and if they can prove he ran, then he's guilty of that. But the cop's death is his own. Being overzealous with inappropriate equipment isn't the crook's fault IMO. As noted, speeding cops are as dangerous as speeding criminals. If Michael Schumacher was being chased by the cops, I'd wager on Michael getting the better of them. There's nothing saying the crooks will lose it before the cops, and if the situation gets heady (which this one did), then the best option is to back off and seek a less dangerous way to track them down. PEACE.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Legal views aside, if I were the motorcycle guy in this case, and was sent to jail for manslaughter, I sure as hell wouldn't be deterred from crime. By the time I'd be released, I'd be a hardened criminal with contempt for the justice system.

 

[ronito]

While I disagree with your philosophy of rehabilitation, we're mostly in agreement on this case.

For starters, I don't see why we have speed limits in the first place, but let's not go there quite yet. So he sped, and was then caught doing so, and thus a cop began to come after him with lights and sirens on.

He did not stop, this is called "Evading Arrest" and it's considered some sort of crime in most states even if the specifics are worded differently. This he's guilty of, even if the crime of speeding in and of itself is a bullshit crime.

The cop then rather than calling in backup, or a helicopter, or simply writing down his license plates to find him later, followed the motorcycle in a high speed pursuit in a vehicle not suited for it. The motorist hurt no one going at the speed he was going - if he had, he would be fully liable for that act, but he didn't. The cop failed to control his vehicle at the speed he was going, and died. The motorist did not run the cop off the road, or attack the cop, or attempt to do any harm to the cop. Through no action of his own, the cop died.

He's liable for evading arrest. For some reason he was prohibited from owning or riding a motorcycle, and he's liable for violating that too. By no means is he criminally responsible for the cop's death, however.

You know I'm going to have to agree with the dirty libertarian here, because he's absolutely right.

The department's policy or lack of training is wrong, not the motorcyclist. As stated above the motorcyclist is guilty of what he did, but this guilty by association thing doesn't fly by me.

For example: I'm following a friend to some destination, my friend speeds up I don't know where the destination is so I speed up too. I crash my car killing a passenger. Does my friend get charged with manslaughter? No. That's my own stupid fault.

Yes I understand it's unfortunate, but the cyclist didn't force the cop to follow him, the department's policy did that. This is a dangerous stretching of the law, and I'm frankly troubled to see it.