JonathanEx
Member
Can't even keep up now.
There's got to be an appropriate Simpsons gif.
There's got to be an appropriate Simpsons gif.
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Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn, Half Shadow cabinet expected to resign today (Labour)
- Thread starter Tak3n
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We're a first past the post parliamentary system. Whilst it doesn't shut out third parties as badly as the USAs system, it does basically prevent there being three equal sized parties at the top. Last time we had a proper realignment the labour party replaced the liberal party completely.
It's very, very hard to do that though - if the lib dems didn't have the tuition fees fiasco behind them, they might be able to replace labour by being the most pro-EU party. But UKIP will never replace the Tories.
nelsonroyale
Member
Labour are such a disaster...I mean the Tories are in a genuine crisis for the time being, and Labour some how come out looking even more clownish. And gthen they blame it all on the one guy who many tried to sabotage from the start. What a shit show. I do hope the split, it would be the only intellectually honest thing to do. Personally, I would espouse the party playing the long game and building a meaningful, alternative political platform to the Tories. Which means they might not get in the next election, but give the Tories more time and they will inevitably fuck up even more, and people will be ready for change. We need less pyrric victories...
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
We did have a massive party realignment before - between '75 and '95 both the Labour and Conservative parties changed significantly and the Liberal Democrats were born. The relative stability in party platform from Blair onwards until the end of the Coalition is relatively anomalous.
It's just that normally party realignments were top-down affairs. This is very much bottom-up.
It's just that normally party realignments were top-down affairs. This is very much bottom-up.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
They can't split, though. We have a first past the post system; any party split is tantamount to electoral suicide. The '80s should be lesson enough of that.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Labour's Bloody Sunday:
There's two eagles and a falconer in that mob.
It's the Lib Dem's chance to shine! After all, if they tear themselves apart, all that really means is they'll have to travel to parliament in two separate cars rather than a minibus.
Candescence
Member
Holy shit, this makes the mess down here in Australia look calm and civilised.
Oh, this insanity makes the last six or so years of Australian politics look like a fucking picnic. None of the three PMs who got knocked off down here were openly loathed by their own party establishments (Labor tolerated Kevin Rudd until they decided they wanted him gone, Gillard was reluctantly removed in favor of Rudd so the election wouldn't be an even worse bloodbath, and Tony Abbot was outright loved by the right-wing of his own party but was so incompetent that they eventually had to remove him to avoid getting slaughtered at the election), and no Labor or Liberal leader has performed a head-hunting exercise of this scale.
At least we have a preferential system rather than FPTP, I'm surprised the Brits haven't followed our lead yet, FPTP is terrible for government elections.
Oh, this insanity makes the last six or so years of Australian politics look like a fucking picnic. None of the three PMs who got knocked off down here were openly loathed by their own party establishments (Labor tolerated Kevin Rudd until they decided they wanted him gone, Gillard was reluctantly removed in favor of Rudd so the election wouldn't be an even worse bloodbath, and Tony Abbot was outright loved by the right-wing of his own party but was so incompetent that they eventually had to remove him to avoid getting slaughtered at the election), and no Labor or Liberal leader has performed a head-hunting exercise of this scale.
At least we have a preferential system rather than FPTP, I'm surprised the Brits haven't followed our lead yet, FPTP is terrible for government elections.
We've had plenty of those. Labour and what are now the Lib Dems have gone through two each in my lifetime alone. The SNP too.
They had their chance but they rejected it in a referendum.
...I can see a pattern forming.
We've also never had such an ineffectual leader electorally and as a leader. Corbyn is an absolute joke.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The Labour Party is now functionally two parties, the new cabinet is almost all Corbynites.
Watson has come out against Corbyn.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...b0f4303810a005#block-5770f0ade4b0f4303810a005
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...b0f4303810a005#block-5770f0ade4b0f4303810a005
This is what happens when you have an ideologue as leader. People more concerned with ideological purity than practical outcomes ensure you get neither.
JonathanEx
Member
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Is this true what I'm hearing that Dianne Abbott is Corbyns ex girlfriend?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yes. Long time ago now, though.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Doesn't matter. It shows that he would rather surround himself with yes people than own up to his criticism.
Looks like Lisa Nandy might run against Corbyn, and as a Corbyn supporter she's someone who might tempt me away from him.
Solidly on the Left of the party, elected in 2010 so post Blair/Brown and still fresh, potentially more able to get the rest of the PLP on side.
For fucks sake. These people fucking resigned, and Corbyn has to replace them with people willing to take the job. Those people are unsurprisingly more inclined to his point of view.
But of course you know all this and just want to engage in needless shit stirring.
Solidly on the Left of the party, elected in 2010 so post Blair/Brown and still fresh, potentially more able to get the rest of the PLP on side.
For fucks sake. These people fucking resigned, and Corbyn has to replace them with people willing to take the job. Those people are unsurprisingly more inclined to his point of view.
But of course you know all this and just want to engage in needless shit stirring.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This, at least, is unfair. Corbyn's first cabinet included a very wide spread of the party including some who vehemently disagreed with him. Corbyn has never really gone for purity politics, or at least, went for purity politics less than e.g. Blair. Corbyn's cabinet is now stacked with Corbynites because he doesn't have anyone else.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Can someone explain to me also when labour stopped being the workers party and started becoming the liberal left party?
JonathanEx
Member
Jess Phillips letter is good - she was only a PPS, but it's a great one: https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/747371576455213056
If Corbyn was interested in outcomes he would have resigned. He's incapable of controlling the message. He's incapable of leading the Labour party to anything but a landslide defeat. He doesn't appeal to anybody but the true believers.
But he's super duper ideologically pure, and that's what matters.
30yearsofhurt
Member
So what are peoples opinions of Lisa Nandy?
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
She's bright and a good media performer. I'd vote for her.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
evidence for how corbyn would bring a landslide defeat? considering he won with a huge mandate and assuming you're not just regurgitating tory-rhetoric such as 'unelectable', which is still being spouted even AFTER he was elected.
centrist abandonment of the working class is what left labour is such an irrelevant state. now people want to go back to that. good luck.
centrist abandonment of the working class is what left labour is such an irrelevant state. now people want to go back to that. good luck.
In a recent poll, 30% of Labour voters in 2015 said they would not vote for the party under Corbyn. Corbyn doesn't understand working class voters, even if he claims to speak for them.
Socialism doesn't help the working class. They don't want it, nor should they. It's awful.
The working class loved Blair Labour. They have no interest in a far-left labour. Honestly you guys sound like the Republicans who think they just need to select a more pure Republican for the moderates to vote for them.
The Labour party true believers are not at all representative of the people as a whole. Something like a third of Labour voters wont vote for a Corbyn led Labour party.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Owen Smith and Lisa Nandy resigning.
Nandy rumoured to be challenging.
Nandy rumoured to be challenging.
blazinglord
Member
As someone who voted for Ed Miliband was genuinely sorry to see him lose, I have no confidence in Corbyn and would never vote for him. I would sooner see Boris or May rather than Corbyn in Number 10.
Oh wow why don't you join the libdems and leave labour alone please. Labour is a social Democratic party not some liberal movement. What is this for kind of idiocy? It's even worse than I thought.
If England isn't leftwing enough then they should be persuaded, hard left policies ARE better for the working class. That's the whole point of them.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
My exact thoughts, except for bolded.
While I definitely don't agree, I can totally understand why you and many other people feel like that. Unfortunately, these are the sorts choices people will be forced to make in the upcoming election.
This country pursued socialist policies when we had a labour movement, with a political wing which was the Labour party. Unfortunately, that movement has been dead for 30+ years. Destroyed from within as much as without. People voted for Corbyn because they wanted social democracy without having any of the things which led to it. No single politician can deliver the policies you want, it requires a movement that could take years (decades) to build.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Don't worry about him. He's just an undergrad who's done a semester of economics 101 and never had a real job in the real world.
Yeah.
He have been pathetic and utterly demolerised every time he comments on anything Conservative related policies with no much conviction. And now he sacks couple while the rest, just walk out because they don't believe in him.
I am baffled on how some people are still saying that he should go on considering how damaged Labour is right now and many of it stemmed from his incompetence.
JonathanEx
Member
Jon Healey too.
If he can't keep the left of the party happy, and seeing all of these, well, yes.
EDIT: Healey is wrong, journalist just took that one back. Either way here's Nandy and Smith's letter: https://twitter.com/conorpope/status/747382938363363328
Yea hard left policies like protectionism and subsidies. They're just wonderful for the working class. That's why they have the backing of exactly zero economists.
Hard left policies are much more about moral signalling than actual outcomes.
Even leaving aside the nuances of their policies, ideological purity is useless in governance. You need to temper it with pragmatism, or you get neither purity nor outcomes.
Good Job Bob
Member
This time Corbyn's opposition in the leadership election may actually stand for something. I expect him to lose.
So after we had Ian and Duncan Smith as the leader of a parliamentary party, now we might have Lisa n' Andy?
It's Defence Questions today, and Labour's new Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis may not make the meeting due to being in Glastonbury.
Considering the country is now in a deep crisis, I think it's crazy that our elected representatives are partying in Glastonbury. I mean, I'm not opposed to them having fun, but the country is quickly unravelling itself and all they can do is hang around in a field kicking shit all over the place. Quite frankly, whether you are in the shadow cabinet or not, it should be all hands on deck. You should either be in your constituency speaking to the people who elected you, or in parliament doing your job.
As for Corbyn, he's lost my support. I like him and many of his stances are stances I agree with, but the guy just doesn't inspire anything at all. I think he's a nice guy and while I didn't become a Labour supporter or member to elect him, I was broadly in support of choosing him over the rest of them and I still think he was the best of the bunch post-Miliband.
The left needs unity, and while I don't think the Blairites are doing anyone a favour by staging a coup when the narrative should be about the Tories selling the country's future for an electoral advantage in the 2015 GE, I do also think that Corbyn needs to go. He inherited a shitshow not of his own making (that is Tony Blair's fault, in the end) and devoted what remained of the party to his pet projects.
Considering the country is now in a deep crisis, I think it's crazy that our elected representatives are partying in Glastonbury. I mean, I'm not opposed to them having fun, but the country is quickly unravelling itself and all they can do is hang around in a field kicking shit all over the place. Quite frankly, whether you are in the shadow cabinet or not, it should be all hands on deck. You should either be in your constituency speaking to the people who elected you, or in parliament doing your job.
As for Corbyn, he's lost my support. I like him and many of his stances are stances I agree with, but the guy just doesn't inspire anything at all. I think he's a nice guy and while I didn't become a Labour supporter or member to elect him, I was broadly in support of choosing him over the rest of them and I still think he was the best of the bunch post-Miliband.
The left needs unity, and while I don't think the Blairites are doing anyone a favour by staging a coup when the narrative should be about the Tories selling the country's future for an electoral advantage in the 2015 GE, I do also think that Corbyn needs to go. He inherited a shitshow not of his own making (that is Tony Blair's fault, in the end) and devoted what remained of the party to his pet projects.
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