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[Kosmo]

Yay death taxes!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24/irs-art-collection-heirs-hope-to-settle-bizarre-tax-dispute-over-canyon-collage/

Heirs of a wealthy New York art dealer were left a $65 million sculpture that might just be more trouble than its worth.

Illeana Sonnabend, who died in 2007, left an art collection worth an estimated $1 billion. But one item in particular, Robert Rauschenberg's “Canyon,” is an heir's nightmare, a lawyer's dream and an IRS conundrum. The bequest comes with a $29 million tax bill, but since the piece includes a stuffed eagle, it can't be sold.

Lawyers for Sonnabend's children and beneficiaries, Nina Sundell and Antonio Homem, are hoping federal tax collectors change their valuation of the item, since they're stuck with the piece - and the taxes on it. But for now, the IRS isn't budging, and the case may be decided by a jury.

“We are hopeful for it to be resolved before a trial,” tax attorney Ralph Lerner told FoxNews.com.

Federal law makes it a crime to possess, transport, sell or otherwise convey a bald eagle, whether it is alive or, as in this case, stuffed. Sonnabend got an informal waiver from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 1981 that allowed her to keep the piece, considered a masterwork of 20th century art. (Rauschenberg got a waiver for the artwork by showing that the bird had been killed and stuffed long before the restriction was enacted.)

Sonnabend died in 2007 at age 92. The estate tax, which at the time of Sonnabend's death stood at 50 percent on estates above $1 million, was suspended in 2010 as part of the Bush-era tax cuts, which were renewed and remain in effect until the end of this year.
Placing a value on an item that cannot be sold is no easy feat. The venerable auction house Christie’s placed the value of "Canyon" at zero. The IRS initially put it at $15 million, then jumped the figure to $65 million when Sundell and Homem refused to pay, according to The New York Times.

The IRS, which declined to comment on the matter, is not only asking for $29 million in taxes, but also an $11.7 million “gross valuation misstatement” penalty, according to Forbes.

Sundell and Homem, who could not be reached for comment Tuesday, have paid $471 million in federal and state estate taxes related to the collection and have already sold roughly $600 million worth of art to pay those taxes, Lerner told FoxNews.com.

 

[twobear]

These poor incredibly rich people who have to pay some taxes that they can't dodge for once.

My heart goes out to them ;_;

 

[Sanky Panky]

Maybe they should just pocket $100 million instead of $130 million from the sale...

Sucks to be them.

 

[KingGondo]

These poor incredibly rich people who have to pay some taxes that they can't dodge for once.

My heart goes out to them ;_;

Sundell and Homem, who could not be reached for comment Tuesday, have paid $471 million in federal and state estate taxes related to the collection and have already sold roughly $600 million worth of art to pay those taxes, Lerner told FoxNews.com.

Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[diffusionx]

This sort of thing is what the courts are for. I think these people will be alright.

 

[Johnlenham]

Wheres that Scrooge Mc Duck pic when you need it.

 

[SmokyDave]

If it can't be sold, how can it be valued at $65 mil?

I'd destroy the piece and ask for a re-valuation.

 

[HisshouBuraiKen]

Sundell and Homem, who could not be reached for comment Tuesday, have paid $471 million in federal and state estate taxes related to the collection and have already sold roughly $600 million worth of art to pay those taxes

paid $471 million, sold $600 million

Oh dear GOD NO

 

[Espresso]

I'm all in favor of abolishing the estate tax. What a joke. The IRS is relentless.

 

[BruiserBear]

It boggles my mind that the same money can be taxed multiple times. I made the money, and I paid income tax on it. Then I die, and my son gets the money. Oh, he has to pay income tax on it again!


Fucking ridiculous.

 

[chaosblade]

Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them.

Yeah, I sympathized with them until that point. What a horrible thing to only get $100 million.

 

[ezrarh]

If they're not willing to take on the burden of the entire art collection, I'll happily step up to the plate.

 

[mike23]

Please. You guys think it's reasonable to charge $29 million in taxes for something, based on an appraisal by the same people (IRS) who are getting the money, that's actually worth $0? Get your heads out of your asses.

 

[Aylinato]

Estate tax. Not death tax. They didn't earn the money anyway, no sympathy for people who are born with golden spoons in their mouths.

 

[3rdman]

So these shit heads, claimed a multi-million dollar sculpture was worth $0.00 and are now crying because the IRS called them on their lie?

"Death Taxes"?...more like "Payback is a Bitch" taxes.

 

[ReBurn]

Just send the sculpture to the IRS with a note that says "Paid in full". Problem solved.

 

[Curufinwe]

It is possible to disclaim an inheritance if its worth less than the taxes and costs.

We plan on doing that if my parents-in-law try to leave us their house.

 

[Gaborn]

If it can't be sold, how can it be valued at $65 mil?

I'd destroy the piece and ask for a re-valuation.

Seriously, this isn't right. You can't have it both ways like the government seems to want to do in this case.

 

[BossLackey]

I don't care about rich people problems

 

[ShinAmano]

Cry me a river.

 

[daycru]

It boggles my mind that the same money can be taxed multiple times. I made the money, and I paid income tax on it. Then I die, and my son gets the money. Oh, he has to pay income tax on it again!


Fucking ridiculous.

Unless you're a millionaire (and a millionaire ass millionaire, not some pussy shit), you are not going to owe an estate tax.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Cry me a river.

I don't care about rich people problems

These poor incredibly rich people who have to pay some taxes that they can't dodge for once.

My heart goes out to them ;_;

Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them.

I don't feel sorry either, but if the tax people are saying they owe millions of dollars on something that is, in effect, valueless, then that is a problem. This is the kind of thinking that leads you to say that it's ok for thieves to steal property from wealthy people because they have plenty. Even if you don't feel personally sorry for them because of how otherwise fortunate they are, that doesn't imply that it isn't a problem worthy of addressing.

 

[Seraphinianus]

if you take off zeros, it's like a story about normal people

 

[Aylinato]

Seriously, this isn't right. You can't have it both ways like the government seems to want to do in this case.

They tried to play the system and got burned for it. No sympathy.

 

[Az]

Alright, alright. I'll donate $5 to this cause too.

 

[ReBurn]

So these shit heads, claimed a multi-million dollar sculpture was worth $0.00 and are now crying because the IRS called them on their lie?

"Death Taxes"?...more like "Payback is a Bitch" taxes.

The value of anything is highly subjective. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

[diffusionx]

It boggles my mind that the same money can be taxed multiple times. I made the money, and I paid income tax on it. Then I die, and my son gets the money. Oh, he has to pay income tax on it again!

Your son didn't earn the money. He is getting a windfall. Windfalls are taxed. And no, you might not have paid income tax on it for any number of legal reasons.

This specific case is BS, but like I said, that's what the courts are for.

 

[Pepto]

Only $129 million profit? That is outrageous.

 

[BruiserBear]

Unless you're a millionaire (and a millionaire ass millionaire, not some pussy shit), you are not going to owe an estate tax.

That is not even what I'm talking about. You cannot give another individual in the United States more than $13,000 a year tax free.

If I wanted to say, give my brother $50,000 this year, to help him buy a house, I would have to pay taxes on that money, again.

 

[SmokyDave]

So these shit heads, claimed a multi-million dollar sculpture was worth $0.00 and are now crying because the IRS called them on their lie?

"Death Taxes"?...more like "Payback is a Bitch" taxes.

"The venerable auction house Christie’s placed the value of "Canyon" at zero."

It cannot be sold.

 

[pje122]

LOL jealous-GAF hatin up the place.

 

[-COOLIO-]

who's making the kickstarter?

 

[Dark Knyght]

Please. You guys think it's reasonable to charge $29 million in taxes for something, based on an appraisal by the same people (IRS) who are getting the money, that's actually worth $0? Get your heads out of your asses.

Exactly, and even more stupid is the fact that they are paying taxes for things that they have inherited.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

if you take off zeros, it's like a story about normal people

except there's no real estate tax for normal people in the first place

Exactly, and even more stupid is the fact that they are paying taxes for things that they have inherited.

What's the difference between inheritance and receiving a 600 million dollar check from your father? Both are forms of income for the person.

 

[DirkDiggler]

The IRS dont play,they don't punk.

 

[Pandaman]

Please. You guys think it's reasonable to charge $29 million in taxes for something, based on an appraisal by the same people (IRS) who are getting the money, that's actually worth $0? Get your heads out of your asses.

it's not 'actually worth $0' it's illegal to sell.
there is a difference.

 

[Chun-Li On A Bike]

Too many taxes though, sure they are rich but I mean... if they had not gotten this stuff the taxes would not have been paid. Seems silly to me.

 

[teruterubozu]

Yay death taxes!

Yay dead eagle!

 

[Kosmo]

These poor incredibly rich people who have to pay some taxes that they can't dodge for once.

My heart goes out to them ;_;

They are not trying to dodge taxes, which is why they sold over $600M and have paid $471M in taxes on the collection.

In a more relateable example, you have long time farm owners who have their kids inherit the farm when they die - and the kids can't afford to even keep it because they are hit with a big inheritance tax and are forced to sell the farm simply because someone's heart isn't beating anymore.

 

[El Sloth]

These folk will be alright, but the IRS trying to take money on something that can't be sold and is essentially $0 is scummy.

Please. You guys think it's reasonable to charge $29 million in taxes for something, based on an appraisal by the same people (IRS) who are getting the money, that's actually worth $0? Get your heads out of your asses.

I don't think anyone thinks it's reasonable. They just couldn't give two shits.

 

[chaosblade]

I don't feel sorry either, but if the tax people are saying they owe millions of dollars on something that is, in effect, valueless, then that is a problem. This is the kind of thinking that leads you to say that it's ok for thieves to steal property from wealthy people because they have plenty. Even if you don't feel personally sorry for them because of how otherwise fortunate they are, that doesn't imply that it isn't a problem worthy of addressing.

The problem I have is more with the way the tax itself works than this specific instance.

It's also ridiculous that the thing can't be sold because it has a dead bird on it. I mean, come on.

 

[twobear]

They are not trying to dodge taxes, which is why they sold over $600M and have paid $471M in taxes on the collection.

In a more relateable example, you have long time farm owners who have their kids inherit the farm when they die - and the kids can't afford to even keep it because they are hit with a big inheritance tax and are forced to sell the farm simply because someone's heart isn't beating anymore.

You're right, that is a more relatable example.

So why did you post the story about the people who (boo hoo) have to sell some of their $1billion art collection?

 

[Forever]

The IRS initially put it at $15 million, then jumped the figure to $65 million when Sundell and Homem refused to pay, according to The New York Times.

So they thought the law applies differently to the rich and found out that the IRS doesn't play favorites like that. Good for the IRS.

 

[Mael]

Exactly, and even more stupid is the fact that they are paying taxes for things that they have inherited.

No actually that's kind of the point, you shouldn't get a leg up because you happen to be born in a rich family.

 

[Arcteryx]

They tried to play the system and got burned for it. No sympathy.

You mean they contacted Christie's and told them to list it at $0...

Christie's said it was valued @ $0 because it CANNOT be sold. The IRS somehow believes it still can be valued, they started @ $15mil, then jumped to $65mil when they refused to pay.

ITT: people hear about other people with more than $5 in their bank accounts; riots ensue.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

They are not trying to dodge taxes, which is why they sold over $600M and have paid $471M in taxes on the collection.

In a more relateable example, you have long time farm owners who have their kids inherit the farm when they die - and the kids can't afford to even keep it because they are hit with a big inheritance tax and are forced to sell the farm simply because someone's heart isn't beating anymore.

and yet had he given the farm to them when he was living, they'd still have to pay taxes on it

So why then should it change because "someone's heart isn't beating anymore." Money is taxed when it exchanges hands, it doesn't matter if one of the hands is dead, it's still an exchange of money and has every right to be taxed as one

 

[grumble]

So these shit heads, claimed a multi-million dollar sculpture was worth $0.00 and are now crying because the IRS called them on their lie?

"Death Taxes"?...more like "Payback is a Bitch" taxes.

Really, they're shit heads? Seems kind of out of line.

If they can't sell it, then the value is zero for the items. Seems obvious to me. The IRS seems to be the shit heads here.

As for death taxes, I fully support them. It helps prevent dynasties and multigenerational inequality of insane proportions.

 

[8byte]

Originally, I felt bad for them. Then I got to the bottom, and realized that they are wealthy enough to pay for it. Meh!

 

[BruiserBear]

You're right, that is a more relatable example.

So why did you post the story about the people who (boo hoo) have to sell some of their $1billion art collection?

Because bullshit is bullshit, no matter how wealthy you are?

 

[diffusionx]

In a more relateable example, you have long time farm owners who have their kids inherit the farm when they die - and the kids can't afford to even keep it because they are hit with a big inheritance tax and are forced to sell the farm simply because someone's heart isn't beating anymore.

No. Bush talked this up a lot a while ago and his administration actually went looking for examples of it happening... and they couldn't find any. Not a single one. So they just decided to keep telling the story.

I have no problem with a debate on estate taxes. But it should be based on fact and not politically motivated FUD and fake sob stories.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/23/AR2005072300741.html