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UncleMeat
Member
I'm against vaccine passports and seatbelt laws. I am also vaccinated and wear my seatbelt. I want to live in a free country and be treated like an adult and if that means my insurance rates go up some then so be it.
Oh man, "free-dumb" instead of "freedom"? That's so clever and hilarious. You really are the smartest person on this board and not overcompensating at all.
Toons
Member
Thank God you aren't the one making decisions for this country then.
ManaByte
Member
Nicki Minaj Ripped for Vaccine Claim, White House Again Denies Invite
Nicki Minaj gets ripped by Trinidad's health minister for her vaccine claim, while she's beefing with the White House.
amp.tmz.com
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Welp, my cousin’s wife is in the ICU with COVID. Her O2 levels have come up some but they’re still worried they may need to intubate her. She had only just gotten her first dose a week ago 
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Sorry to hear that. I hope she gets better soon.Welp, my cousin’s wife is in the ICU with COVID. Her O2 levels have come up some but they’re still worried they may need to intubate her. She had only just gotten her first dose a week ago
Nobody_Important
How are you holding up? All better yet?
funkygunther
Banned
Welp, my cousin’s wife is in the ICU with COVID. Her O2 levels have come up some but they’re still worried they may need to intubate her. She had only just gotten her first dose a week ago
damn that’s rough
UncleMeat
Member
Whatever! I'd be like the coolest dictator of all time!
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Insurance to go up and speed limits to go down or more speed limit enforcement. Not sure why you would want to both pay extra and have more government interference in your life just to give someone else the freedom from having their shirt slightly wrinkled.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Yeah I've been okay for a bit now. Thanks for asking!Sorry to hear that. I hope she gets better soon.
UncleMeat
Member
So because I'm against certain government interference the government will naturally respond with more intrusive interference and therefore I should just go along with the original interference?
I'm not asking for some libertarian utopia; I think some laws are good and some are bad. Even in your example, arbitrarily lowering the speed limit is bad but enforcing speed limits is good. And in my state we have seatbelt laws but you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet so I can't help but wonder if it's less about personal safety and more about giving cops an excuse to pull people over and to generate revenue.
But to get back and topic, and because the seatbelt battle was already lost long ago, it looks like you blue-staters will be getting your vaccine passports that you want pretty soon so I guess we'll see how it goes.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
It's not arbitrary - traffic fatalities go up - government scrutiny and intervention go up, speed limits or their enforcement are impacted.
This is just the reality of living in a society of millions of people.
Same goes for vaccine mandates, I don't want mandates, I want people to act responsibly and make the obvious decision to get vaccinated, but a large proportion of people refuse to do so, and so mandates inevitably happen, ironically a lot of people refuse to get the vaccine almost purely because they are against mandates.
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UncleMeat
Member
You probably aren't wrong but the fact mandates and passports are inevitable doesn't make it right. And when it happens and is done with the best of intentions it will also inevitably be abused, corrupt and a complete clusterfuck.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
What makes them "wrong", and how is it different from the other freedom-reducing rules that we have that we've come to accept?
Inevitably? As in always, and with 100% certainty? If that were true, civilization wouldn't exist in its current state.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yeah no shit, I have a non credit card sized index card with barely legible writing on it to 'prove' I got vaccinated. There is likely several databases of unknown and likely convoluted ownership that show that I made and showed up for an appointment but even if someone could manage to consolidate and verify them they don't show I actually got a vaccine.
UncleMeat
Member
Are you not familiar with the patriot act? I mean how could anyone be against it? It's literally called the patriot act, only terrorist sympathizers would be against the patriot act.
I mean what gives you any faith that it wouldn't be a clusterfuck? But again, we'll find out soon enough.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I am
Pretty easy. I'm against it because it contributed to warrantless wiretapping, a degradation of due process, and general loss of freedoms without any clear benefit.
I guess I'm a terrorist sympathizer.
I'm analyzing your statement in general.
You said that mandates and passports that are done with the best of intentions will inevitably become shit. I'm asked you if you really think that happens in 100% of the times, or do you just think it'll happen this time? And if so, what makes this time different?
BarringGaffner
Member
people in this thread admitted taking it. Truly embarrassing.
funkygunther
Banned
UncleMeat
Member
Rentahamster
So your issue is that I used the word "inevitable" without being able to prove it's inevitable? Well I guess you're technically correct, which we all know is the best kind of correct...damnit! The person I was responding to said mandates were inevitable even though they technically aren't inevitable either so I guess we were both saying what we think will happen based on history but again you are technically correct.
How about I change it to say it's "most likely going to be a clusterfuck" and then we can agree to disagree and just see what happens since we are getting vaccine passports.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Actually he has a more nuanced position than that. In a world where everyone got the a proven safe and effective vaccine, they wouldn't be inevitable, but in a world where too many people refuse it to the point where it becomes a public health hazard, it's inevitable. There was a qualifier attached.
Did this piece of history turn out to be a clusterfuck? I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
I'm still curious about your answer to this question too:
What makes these particular rules "wrong", and how is it different from the other freedom-reducing rules that we have that we've come to accept?
UncleMeat
Member
It's wrong because it's creepy, intrusive and could possibly lead to a weird two-tiered society which I don't want. If I have to explain why I don't trust the government to have this awesome new power to track people and regulate where they can go 24/7 and why it will be abused by humans then there's really not much I can say to convince you but if you're really curious what I think that's why.Actually he has a more nuanced position than that. In a world where everyone got the a proven safe and effective vaccine, they wouldn't be inevitable, but in a world where too many people refuse it to the point where it becomes a public health hazard, it's inevitable. There was a qualifier attached.
Did this piece of history turn out to be a clusterfuck? I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I'm still curious about your answer to this question too:
What makes these particular rules "wrong", and how is it different from the other freedom-reducing rules that we have that we've come to accept?
FunkMiller
Banned
I would pay upwards of 5 American dollars to hear Trump talk about giant testicles.
Does he talk much about his kids in public, though?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Something being creepy and intrusive doesn't necessarily lead to a two-tiered society. I need a logical pathway from mandate to two-tiered society that makes a plausible case for this. Otherwise you're just dealing in a hypothetical slippery slope argument.
There actually is much you can say that will convince me. That's why I'm asking you questions - to see what your reasoning is and if it's persuasive.
If you're going by historical precedent, we already agree that with the benefit of hindsight, the freedom reducing effect of the Patriot Act wasn't worth it. However, I also gave you another example of a historical precedent that is much more similar to the one we currently are facing, and want you to give your thoughts on that one too.
Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Idaho declares statewide hospital resource crisis amid Covid surge
State officials made the announcement Thursday, which will permit medical facilities to ration health care and triage patients.
www.nbcnews.com
We really shouldn't still be going through this here in late 2021. And people wonder why vaccine mandates are coming. Only 40% of adults in Idaho are fully vaccinated, only 45% received one shot.
UncleMeat
Member
I didn't say the passports would lead to a two-tiered society because it's weird and creepy. It will lead to a two-tiered society because you're telling one group of people that you can go to restaurants, events, work, gyms, parks, etc., and another that they cannot. It also just happens to be creepy and intrusive.Something being creepy and intrusive doesn't necessarily lead to a two-tiered society. I need a logical pathway from mandate to two-tiered society that makes a plausible case for this. Otherwise you're just dealing in a hypothetical slippery slope argument.
There actually is much you can say that will convince me. That's why I'm asking you questions - to see what your reasoning is and if it's persuasive.
If you're going by historical precedent, we already agree that with the benefit of hindsight, the freedom reducing effect of the Patriot Act wasn't worth it. However, I also gave you another example of a historical precedent that is much more similar to the one we currently are facing, and want you to give your thoughts on that one too.
Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
I don't have time to look at your example and assess it but I'll check it out later. I'll just say I understand the need for mandates but the problem is then you need the passports to enforce the mandates and that's where my big problem is, the passports. I don't want to give the state or federal government this new authority that can easily be abused. I also don't want to show my papers everywhere I go and I don't want checkpoints between every state.
You could say, "well that wouldn't happen if people just got the vaccine" which is true but that's never going to happen; 25% of the population think ghosts are real. So instead everyone gets punished and gets to live in the police state even though I'm vaccinated and asymptomatic.
Also when does it end? When there's zero covid cases? What's the number (of anything) when we get to go back to normal?
I've got to go to yoga class though so i'll check in later!
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TheContact
Member
Seatbelt laws, like masks and vaccines, aren’t just about you. They’re about the people you affect around you. Your body flying through your windshield at 60+ mph is a weapon that can affect other people. If the seatbelt was only for yourself I would agree with you, but once your actions put others in danger that’s when your “freedoms” experience limitations
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I don't think the main purpose of seat belt laws is to prevent secondary deaths.
UncleMeat
Member
I understand that completely. We could do a greater good vs personal freedom analysis for a lot of laws and we know people are going to draw the line in different places when doing so.
Even if a specific law was deemed by the majority to be better for the greater good that still doesn't automatically make it a good and moral law. For example you could make a pretty easy argument for banning soft drinks; does anyone really need to drink soda? And being fat doesn't just just affect the fatty either as we're seeing now with covid. But unlike the seatbelt law, which again I admittedly lost long ago and is pretty good example of the greater good outweighing personal freedoms, I will fight to the death for my right to drink that sweet sweet nectar of the gods.
So I guess vaccine passports could end up being like seatbelt laws, ie - a law that benefits society at minimal loss to personal freedoms. My prediction is that it will cause a lot of problems end up more in the patriot act group of laws we regret passing. So we'll see how it goes.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
We already have situations where we're telling one group of people that you can't patronize an establishment. You can't buy cigarettes, buy alcohol, go to a bar, go to a casino, patronize a brothel, be a prostitute, or buy a gun if you're under the certain age because we've decided that it's in the public good to limit that. Do we have a dystopic two-tiered society because of that?
In that same vein, we are limiting access to public spaces to unvaccinated people because they are proven to be a greater liability to the safety of the public, and that it's in the public good to do so.
Can this be abused? Yes. Have other laws in the past been abused? Yes. Does that mean this one will be abused? Not necessarily. It might be, but in lieu of this, what's the alternative? Unless you have specific points, your argument is a slippery slope argument, and while it is real, it is not the strongest argument out there. In my view, the benefits are big enough to outweigh the slipper slope argument.
I gave you an example of a previous vaccine mandate that was upheld by the Supreme Court. Did we succumb to the slippery slope as a result of that one?
Everyone gets punished either way. When too many people are unvaccinated, the virus runs rampant, and our hospitals get overcrowded, and life can't get back to normal. We're getting punished right now as a result of too many people getting sick.
At this point, zero COVID cases is looking like a pipe dream. We could have got there, but we dropped the ball. The thing that's fucking up the normal operation of society right now is the large number of people overwhelming our hospital system as a result of mostly unvaccinated people getting sick from COVID. Once that is not a problem anymore, and once enough of the population develop a resistance to the virus, things can get back to normal.
What would you do? Have us get back to normal right now? That would result in chaos as many more people will die.
UncleMeat
Member
I've been back to normal since I got the shot and I live in a red state where I'm free to do what I want, there aren't any restrictions that I'm aware of (although businesses can require masks); stadiums and restaurants are full, kids are back in school. I've heard of some elementary school games getting cancelled because of quarantine rules. The only time I wear a mask is when I go to the library. It's pretty nice.
You seem to think I'm trying to convince you or win you over; I'm not. You wanted to know why I thought it was wrong so I told you. And I promise you'll never convince me to support vaccine passports so we might as well drop it. I didn't call you guys authoritarians or anything because I understand where you're coming from and you guys have all been cool too so I'm good with leaving it there.
You seem to think I'm trying to convince you or win you over; I'm not. You wanted to know why I thought it was wrong so I told you. And I promise you'll never convince me to support vaccine passports so we might as well drop it. I didn't call you guys authoritarians or anything because I understand where you're coming from and you guys have all been cool too so I'm good with leaving it there.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's great that you're doing well in your neck of the woods, but some parts of the country are not. Personally, I'd take a more federalized approach to this, but I'm not in charge, so it is what it is.
You don't know what I seem to be thinking because I'm not thinking about that. I just want you to answer the questions I ask you so that I can get a better understanding on how you weigh options and make decisions.
You did, and I appreciate the dialogue, but I also pointed out why I think your reasons are flawed and actually not aligned with history, given that was one of your main justifications.
Is being so close-minded that you are 100% convinced of your position a reasonable and effective way to uncover the truth?
After six weeks of restrictions, ICU cases in BC have started to trend down this week(140 on Tuesday to 134 today[Thursday]). Health Minister Dix delivering a careful approach with Alberta here. Covid patients can take a long recovery, can't exactly kick people out and BC cases are expected to increase already according to modeling. Things are seemingly being managed where the current numbers are not far from where BC would have to start surge capacity(without doing it).
What surge care looks like in Alberta. Packed in whatever space. Suppose to be one nurse/patient too. Those won't be helping outcomes.
Alberta covid patients in ICU went up again today. Tuesday it was 212 Thursday 222.
Might as well add total deaths for each over the same time(Tues-Thurs): AB:43 BC:12
Almost 4x the rate.
Four weeks ago when the first targeted restrictions from July in BC started to take effect Alberta was trending up with cases too but lower. Three weeks ago when BC province wide restrictions went into effect BC and Alberta cases were about even.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The life of comfort, safety, and plenty that we enjoy today came about from the sacrifices born from our predecessors. That we don't have the will to bear the same burdens for the sake of our future generations really shows how selfish we've become as a society.
The U.S. Had 'Vaccine Passports' Long Before COVID-19 | Time
The U.S. Had 'Vaccine Passports' Long Before COVID-19 | Time
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
In his defense it doesn't sound like he's looking for any kind of truth or to join in with the consensus of doctors and other scientists. Just alright with the way of things and that others do not share his opinion. I ended up reading his replies in Matthew Mcconaughey voice and made me giggle to myself.
Narasumas
Member
The comments in there are gross. We’ve really lost ourselves as a society. WTF is wrong with people?
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
FunkMiller
Banned
Frustration at the rampant idiocy of anti-vaxxers that boils over into unpleasant invective.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Hospital staff must swear off Tylenol, Tums to get religious vaccine exemption
Hospital CEO aims to educate staff on the full scope of what they’re claiming.
arstechnica.com
QSD
Member
You must understand that they prayed to Jesus about this and he let them know Tylenol is still OK.Hospital staff must swear off Tylenol, Tums to get religious vaccine exemption
Hospital CEO aims to educate staff on the full scope of what they’re claiming.
Jaysen
Banned
I ask that every time I see idiots equating the vaccine and masks with freedom.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
COVID19 is killing lots of cops, apparently.
JumpMan1981
Banned
It'll be spot checks most likely and will probably be acceptable to flash your card and people will find ways around it.
A big difference between the theoretical implementation of these measures and how things actually work when it comes down to it.
Awardees are not just killing themselves, they are taking others with them by spreading anti-vaxx and covid-denying bullshit on social media. So I can understand much of the cynicism in the comments.
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JumpMan1981
Banned
Its a tough crowd on here but I, and many others, agree with you.
I've pretty much felt that since I was vaccinated I don't really care what anyone else does. My vaccine works so I am fine. If someone else doesn't want to be vaccinated then fine by me. I really don't care.
Which puts me in a bad spot though. I see people really wanting to coerce others into getting vaccinated and I can't really agree with that. I belive the individual should be able to make their own choice and since we who are vaxxed are already protected I am fine letting them make their own choices. I already protected myself so no problem.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
JumpMan1981
what did you think about this extra context around the India situation? Did you respond to that? Apologies if I missed it.
Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]
Migrants and congress exempt???? This shit is infuriating