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[FunkMiller]

FDA approval here for drugs, on average, is about a decade. There are variations on this, of course, but that's the roundabout average. So for something to get approval that quickly (less than a year?), well, I'd say that's obviously going to raise some questions. Also, taking new drugs in general is always a gamble here. When you see a commercial for any kind of drug, it ends with a 20-second litany of potential side-effects, some considerably worse than the illness the drug is intended to treat. And this is for drugs that went through the standard, decade-long trial period.

Honestly, I didn't know much about the global involvement, and ultimately, even if I did, I don't know how much it would have mattered. There is just so much chaos, informational and otherwise, around this goddamned disease, that I don't know who to trust or what to believe. I'm a skeptic by nature, and neither our government nor the global pharmaceutical industry is exactly trusted to hold the well-being of people in their highest regard, if you know what I'm saying.

So, I felt very much paralyzed by uncertainty. I wanted to get vaccinated, but the trust just wasn't there. It's not a dislike of vaccines, not at all. For me, it's trying to find the voice of truth amongst the cacophony, when so many of the component voices, especially those of the media, are powered by ulterior motive.

So this really comes down to a distrust of the American medical system. We just don't have that level of scepticism here in the UK, where healthcare is completely free.

I also think the fact Americans rarely look outside at the rest of the world has been a contributing factor too. It's that isolationism that's made it harder for people to accept the truth that's self evident to a majority of the rest of the free world.

Maybe in future look outside America for your information about important stuff? And broaden the media you consume. All the cold hard facts have been there the entire time.
Also, don't pay so much mind to side effects, if you can help it. Only America has those idiotic disclaimers at the end of every medicine advert.

 

[Loki]

Why has this CDC graph not been updated since Oct 2nd? COVID-19 Associated Hospitalizations by Age

Anyone? It's been nearly a month since this data has been updated, whereas it was being updated on a weekly basis prior to that.

 

[Catphish]

So this really comes down to a distrust of the American medical system. We just don't have that level of scepticism here in the UK, where healthcare is completely free.

I also think the fact Americans rarely look outside at the rest of the world has been a contributing factor too. It's that isolationism that's made it harder for people to accept the truth that's self evident to a majority of the rest of the free world.

Maybe in future look outside America for your information about important stuff? And broaden the media you consume. All the cold hard facts have been there the entire time.
Also, don't pay so much mind to side effects, if you can help it. Only America has those idiotic disclaimers at the end of every medicine advert.

Well, no, it doesn't really come down to a distrust of the American medical system. That's part of it, but, for me there's more. I thought I was pretty clear on what the factors were.

Look, FunkMiller, I like you, and I appreciate your input, but, being honest, I know I couldn't have made any decision other than the one I made.

What's happened has happened, and now I move on.

You're welcome to judge and make your assessments, but I like to think I have my head on fairly straight, and even though I hate what I just went through, I don't think myself a fool for feeling what I do. Any foolish feelings now are just wishes that I could have, perhaps, saved myself from two weeks of suffering.

I'm not going to argue about the why's or what-could've's. I just wanted to share what I've been through, and how it changed my mind.

Take it for whatever it's worth to you.

 

[12Goblins]

I don't think the trust issue thing is really some legitimate excuse... I have deep seated trust issues and consider myself extremely cynical and skeptical of people's profit incentives and their personal interests at play, but I am still able to decipher good information from bad. there's just some bad fundamental principles at play here and it's on you to stop latching on to bad information that you want to be true... even after all this people will continue to fall in the same pitfalls, so it's not like some trust was gained

I mean, who has had a change of heart after this and dedicated some of their personal time to learn about the basic tenants of vaccinology or immunology? virtually no one. how else are you going to understand what's at play here?

 

[Kilau]

I was under that impression that most drug approvals take so long because of bureaucracy and are needlessly dragged out. Covid vaccines had the way cleared.

 

[12Goblins]

I was under that impression that most drug approvals take so long because of bureaucracy and are needlessly dragged out. Covid vaccines had the way cleared.

we have so much data about these vaccines. people just don't care, they want to believe what they want to believe, however irrational.

if you are still vaccine hesitant at this point, you are simply being willfully ignorant. I say this as someone who is not vaccinated

 

[poppabk]

Part of it is that there is a perception that the government is extremely cavalier about safety and so when the government or officials say or do anything slightly negative it is assumed that it is the tip of the iceberg.

 

[QSD]

Part of it is that there is a perception that the government is extremely cavalier about safety and so when the government or officials say or do anything slightly negative it is assumed that it is the tip of the iceberg.

I mean, a lot of them were pretty cavalier, right? Trump, BoJo, even my own (Dutch) government were all extremely hesitant to take the virus as seriously as was needed.

 

[QSD]

I don't think the trust issue thing is really some legitimate excuse... I have deep seated trust issues and consider myself extremely cynical and skeptical of people's profit incentives and their personal interests at play, but I am still able to decipher good information from bad. there's just some bad fundamental principles at play here and it's on you to stop latching on to bad information that you want to be true... even after all this people will continue to fall in the same pitfalls, so it's not like some trust was gained

I mean, who has had a change of heart after this and dedicated some of their personal time to learn about the basic tenants of vaccinology or immunology? virtually no one. how else are you going to understand what's at play here?

Well you certainly have issues trusting what people are telling you here... Why would people want (in principle) to believe vaccines don't work but are poisonous? They might be predisposed to believe such a thing if they don't trust the people that are making them available, but I think most people would like to live in a society where they can trust doctors and the medical establishment with their health and the health of their loved ones.

If people had trust, they wouldn't need to learn about immunology, because they would simply trust the relevant experts, as delegated by the government. The lack of trust is really the core issue here IMHO, it's been stated many times over in this thread.

 

[funkygunther]

I mean, a lot of them were pretty cavalier, right? Trump, BoJo, even my own (Dutch) government were all extremely hesitant to take the virus as seriously as was needed.

yes, Sweden was cavalier and despite reality is still being used as fuel for contrarian gaslighters

 

[ntropy]

 

[funkygunther]

laws don’t apply to people breaking the law, such insight

you can tell me what the rules are for legal migrants or refugee/asylum seekers, because the term “illegal immigrant” is used to mean a lot of things

 

[poppabk]

I mean, a lot of them were pretty cavalier, right? Trump, BoJo, even my own (Dutch) government were all extremely hesitant to take the virus as seriously as was needed.

In the absence of much data - everyone changed their tune as shit went south and the data slapped them in the face.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Big brains at the centre for immigration studies.

 

[FunkMiller]

I mean, a lot of them were pretty cavalier, right? Trump, BoJo, even my own (Dutch) government were all extremely hesitant to take the virus as seriously as was needed.

In Boris’s defence, he has whole heartedly championed the vaccines from day one.

Fucked up lockdown completely though.

 

[EviLore]

Moderna 3rd dose and flu shot.

 

[QSD]

In the absence of much data - everyone changed their tune as shit went south and the data slapped them in the face.

That is exactly how I think about it. I do think that the half-assed, bumbling way a lot of government response went down contributed (among many other things) to a loss of trust. Which is I think similar to what you were saying, the government is perceived to be so cavalier that citizens are second-guessing its decisions.

yes, Sweden was cavalier and despite reality is still being used as fuel for contrarian gaslighters

for sure there are still a bunch of people that believe covid just doesn't exist at all, it's much harder for me to understand/emphatize with these people, as it seems waaay more delusional. I kind of view this as a seperate issue from vaccine hesitancy, which I find easier to understand.

Moderna 3rd dose and flu shot.

Dude stop showing off, all you're doing is spreading aerosols around with those forcefields

 

[12Goblins]

Well you certainly have issues trusting what people are telling you here... Why would people want (in principle) to believe vaccines don't work but are poisonous? They might be predisposed to believe such a thing if they don't trust the people that are making them available, but I think most people would like to live in a society where they can trust doctors and the medical establishment with their health and the health of their loved ones.

If people had trust, they wouldn't need to learn about immunology, because they would simply trust the relevant experts, as delegated by the government. The lack of trust is really the core issue here IMHO, it's been stated many times over in this thread.

Can you trust the NIH and the CDC? Yes. is it perfect? No. is it the best we have? Undoubtedly, and there is nothing even close. we know you can trust doctors and the medical establishment, but people don't, probably mostly because they conflate profit motives with health care and science itself and don't understand how things work mostly. that's okay, but that's on you.

feels like a cop out to say you went out of your way to spread bad information because you didn't trust an establishment that is the most credible and trust worthy we have, my 2 cents

 

[Physiognomonics]

Moderna 3rd dose and flu shot.

2 shots? No side effects?

 

[poppabk]

Moderna 3rd dose and flu shot.

*Real life footage of spike proteins being shed*

 

[QSD]

Can you trust the NIH and the CDC? Yes. is it perfect? No. is it the best we have? Undoubtedly, and there is nothing even close. we know you can trust doctors and the medical establishment, but people don't, probably mostly because they conflate profit motives with health care and science itself and don't understand how things work mostly. that's okay, but that's on you.

Ok, so what you are doing here is basically making a number of declarative statements about what you perceive to be true. I don't necessarily disagree, but the difference is I don't expect everybody else to see what I'm seeing and feel what I'm feeling. People have different perspectives, and (I agree) sometimes their perspectives are quite limited. I just don't think you can really blame people for it, many simply don't have the intelligence to understand the complexities of this situation (and let's face it, things are pretty complicated) and are using simple, trust-based heuristics to make sense of it. Which leads some of them into bad information bubbles that seek to entrench them.

feels like a cop out to say you went out of your way to spread bad information because you didn't trust an establishment that is the most credible and trust worthy we have, my 2 cents

Well, in the end we only have 1 'establishment' so it's simultaneously the most credible and the most deceptive. Other than that I don't know if this is directed at me, but all I did was post some Bret Weinstein video's because I trusted him and it turned out bad. I'll own it, it was stupid. I did also post the Rebel Wisdom video's that debunked him, in my defence.

 

[SpiceRacz]

Moderna 3rd dose and flu shot.

How are you feeling? I heard 3rd dose has been pretty rough for some people. Getting mine next week when I get back from vacation.

 

[EviLore]

How are you feeling? I heard 3rd dose has been pretty rough for some people. Getting mine next week when I get back from vacation.

Okay so far, we’ll see how it goes.

 

[Celcius]

Sigh, I think I'm having some side effects from the vaccine that still haven't gone away... I have an appointment with an ENT specialist on Tuesday.

Also, my job is doing this thing where if you upload your vaccine card showing that you're fully vaccinated then they're giving out $100k split among drawing winners (ten winners of $10k). I'm guessing there's a mandate from the government coming about large companies requiring proof of vaccination status?

 

[BadBurger]

An interesting read on the possible future of COVID-19 / SARS-CoV-2 in our world. Also, holy crap at that experiment from the 80's (click the title to read the article):

 

[DaleinCalgary]

How are you feeling? I heard 3rd dose has been pretty rough for some people. Getting mine next week when I get back from vacation.

Ive got 4 shots now, first astra, 2 Pfizer and a flu shot.

The 1st Pfizer gave me massive muscle pain but the 2nd was fine.

 

[sinnergy]

Ive got 4 shots now, first astra, 2 Pfizer and a flu shot.

The 1st Pfizer gave me massive muscle pain but the 2nd was fine.

Gotta collect them all but why? You have a condition?

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Gotta collect them all but why? You have a condition?

nope, the province allows extra for travel so you meet some countries restrictions. Ive got a buddy who got 2 astra that got 2 Pfizer for 4 shots.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Physiognomonics]

rising cases because the country had such a successful vaccination programme and low cases in early summer

What kind of mental gymnastic is that?

 

[funkygunther]

What kind of mental gymnastic is that?

devolved governments primary purpose is to remind their citizens they are devolved governments, and sometimes that means deviating from the national government no matter how nonsensical the reasoning

 

[M1chl]

Cases in my country is rising and I still have too many anti-bodies to get the booster shot, so I hope I am safe. Well I thought that last time, when I got Covid after I was vaccinated. One of the worst situation in my life, especially given amount of immunity suppressants I am taking. So let's believe™ that my natural anti-bodies will keep me safe.

 

[Chaplain]

edited

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm watching a fascinating deep dive into a stealth geocentrism documentary, and I'm struck by all the parallels to the current anti-vax propaganda. It can be easy for otherwise well meaning people to be duped or for conspiratorial-minded grifters to cloak their arguments in a seemingly benign "I'm just asking questions" schtick dressed up with a superficial veneer of just enough valid science to fool the average layman.

Once again, unsurprisingly, organized religion and new age bullshit are some of the driving factors in smart people giving up their critical thinking faculties.

 

[caffeware]

 

[Punished Miku]

 

[Rentahamster]

New study reinforces the fact that you should get a vaccine even if you've already had COVID19 because vaccines confer greater immunity than "natural" immunity.

Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19 Among Adults Hospitalized ...

This report describes mRNA COVID-19 vaccine recipients as having greater immunity from COVID-19 infection than previously infected, unvaccinated persons.

www.cdc.gov

What is already known about this topic?

Previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19 vaccination can provide immunity and protection against subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection and illness.

What is added by this report?

Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations among adults aged ≥18 years whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among unvaccinated adults with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection were 5.49-fold higher than the odds among fully vaccinated recipients of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine who had no previous documented infection (95% confidence interval = 2.75–10.99).

What are the implications for public health practice?

All eligible persons should be vaccinated against COVID-19 as soon as possible, including unvaccinated persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2.

This might seem to be in conflict with the Israeli study that suggests natural immunity confers more protection than vaccine immunity, but one must consider the differences in both population characteristics, sampling methods, and analysis techniques, which you can see when you compare and contrast the stated limitations of both studies.

 

[caffeware]

 

[prinz_valium]

An interesting read on the possible future of COVID-19 / SARS-CoV-2 in our world. Also, holy crap at that experiment from the 80's (click the title to read the article):

Damn. I should play the lottery

 

[TheFarter]

New study reinforces the fact that you should get a vaccine even if you've already had COVID19 because vaccines confer greater immunity than "natural" immunity.

Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19 Among Adults Hospitalized ...

This report describes mRNA COVID-19 vaccine recipients as having greater immunity from COVID-19 infection than previously infected, unvaccinated persons.

www.cdc.gov

This might seem to be in conflict with the Israeli study that suggests natural immunity confers more protection than vaccine immunity, but one must consider the differences in both population characteristics, sampling methods, and analysis techniques, which you can see when you compare and contrast the stated limitations of both studies.

That's cool. For now I'll do it how I do the flu as well. Don't get that shot either. Good to know that my natural immunity works as well.

Edit. Lol about the Psaki. And another 1.

 

[Rentahamster]

That's cool. For now I'll do it how I do the flu as well. Don't get that shot either. Good to know that my natural immunity works as well.

It "works" but it's an unknown quantity. Unlike vaccines, here's no way to control for the many different variables with "natural" infection, so just because a study suggests that natural infection confers X amount of immunity over Y amount of time with a given sample of humans, it doesn't mean that you will be confident in applying that directly to your own personal experience. Maybe you'll beat the average, and maybe you'll do worse, but at the end of the day you will be rolling the dice on this at your own risk.

What can you do to lessen the risk? Get the vaccine. There's data that suggests that previous infection + vaccine immunity combined give the best form of immunity of all. Given the miniscule risk surrounding vaccines, there is very little reason why one shouldn't do that.

Same with the flu. The potential benefits of the flu vaccine far outweigh the negligible downsides.

Not doing so is an exercise in laziness, apathy, or faulty risk assessment.

 

[12Goblins]

“In the entire history of mankind there has never been a political elite sincerely concerned about the wellbeing of regular people."

what a load of BS lol

 

[Cyberpunkd]

That's cool. For now I'll do it how I do the flu as well. Don't get that shot either. Good to know that my natural immunity works as well.

It’s incredible to me how in this thread people still write ‘I will just let my natural immunity do the job’ despite countless examples of people thinking the same and ending up in ICU in their 20s or 30s due to Covid. But hey, natural selection doing work.

 

[FunkMiller]

Once again, unsurprisingly, organized religion and new age bullshit are some of the driving factors in smart people giving up their critical thinking faculties.

Kind of makes perfect sense though, eh? If you are born into, or join an environment where you are encouraged to disregard evidence in favour of faith, your critical faculties are going to be damaged. Religion relies on you not asking questions, not investigating what you’re being told, and believing the things told you only by the people of your religion. All of that rather primes the mind to be credulous to conspiracy and misinformation.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Kind of makes perfect sense though, eh? If you are born into, or join an environment where you are encouraged to disregard evidence in favour of faith, your critical faculties are going to be damaged. Religion relies on you not asking questions, not investigating what you’re being told, and believing the things told you only by the people of your religion. All of that rather primes the mind to be credulous to conspiracy and misinformation.

We get it. You're an atheist.

 

[IDKFA]

Had two shots already, now just awaiting my third. Going to see if I can get my yearly flu shot as well.

I really want to go back to how things were in pre 2020. A world without masks, social distancing and quarantines. If that means I need multiple shots then so be it. Inject it into my dick if you have to. Anything to just get back to normal.

I'm just hoping things in the UK stay steady and we're not hit with another lockdown.

 

[Narasumas]

Kind of makes perfect sense though, eh? If you are born into, or join an environment where you are encouraged to disregard evidence in favour of faith, your critical faculties are going to be damaged. Religion relies on you not asking questions, not investigating what you’re being told, and believing the things told you only by the people of your religion. All of that rather primes the mind to be credulous to conspiracy and misinformation.

Having faith doesn’t mean your critical falcuties are damaged. What a load.

 

[Chaplain]

Having faith doesn’t mean your critical falcuties are damaged. What a load.

Agreed!

"Faith is part and parcel of my life as an intellectual and a scientist. I believe in the theory of gravitational attraction, why? Because I have evidence for it. I believe my wife loves me, why? Because I have evidence for it. And, my Christian faith consists, not in faith as a leap into the unknown, it is [an] evidence-based commitment - otherwise, I wouldn't be remotely interested in Christianity." (Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University John Lennox)

edited

 

[Chaplain]

 

[betrayal]

Study (26th October 2021): "Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines"

Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines - Cell Discovery

Large-scale COVID-19 vaccinations are currently underway in many countries in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Here, we report, besides generation of neutralizing antibodies, consistent alterations in hemoglobin A1c, serum sodium and potassium levels, coagulation profiles, and renal functions...

www.nature.com

[...]
To our surprise, we observed quite consistent pathophysiological changes regarding electrolyte contents, coagulation profiles, renal function as well as cholesterol and glucose metabolic-related features, as if these people had experienced an infection with SARS-CoV-2. In addition, PBMCs scRNA-seq results also indicated consistent reductions in CD8+ T cells and increases in monocyte contents, as well as enhanced NF-κB inflammatory signaling, which also mimicked responses after infection. Surprisingly, type I interferon responses, which had been linked to reduced damages after SARS-CoV-2 infection and milder symptoms, appeared to be reduced after vaccination.

[...]

Together, these data suggested that after vaccination, at least by day 28, other than generation of neutralizing antibodies, people’s immune systems, including those of lymphocytes and monocytes, were perhaps in a more vulnerable state.

They used a chinese vaccine, but they all contain unmodified spike S1 protein from the virus, just like any mRNA vaccine. This is not the first study to come to these conclusions. It is probably only a matter of short- or medium-term effects, but the COVID-19 vaccination does not come without costs.