Support NeoGAF

[T8SC]

1.) COVID is substantially more deadly than the flu (https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2514)
2.) Even if vaccination brings COVID back in line with the flu, hospital capacity is not designed to deal with two flu like illnesses at the same time.
3.) Health systems are already backlogged from postponing routine treatments during the last COVID spikes
4.) Dwindling immunity in the population makes us more vulnerable to variants such as Omicron

Understood, so ...

1) More deadly yes, but to whom? The elderly & those with various other conditions? Again, to be pushing teenagers etc to be booster jabbed etc just seems a bit scaremongery when they generally have good immune systems and like any virus, when they catch it and feel ill, they'll mostly stay in bed anyway.

2) What happens when the next virus pops up? Does Covid get put in the same category as flu to focus on the new shiny one? Surely the focus should be to increase hospital capacity on top of jabs. What if the current vaccines don't work properly against Omicron, does that mean Governments have spent billions on vaccines that are essentially no use? Or what if they're fine with Omicron but new variant Bojo in March 2022 escapes it... Looks like "firefighting" to me.

3) Yes, and lots (and I mean, lots) of people are dying from other illnesses and conditions. I won't go into the whole mental health thing as it feels like the "excuse" for everything these days, but when so many businesses etc are going under its hard to ignore.

4) Which vaccines may not resolve, see point #2. This is now 2 years of Covid, we're seeing "yet another wave" in Europe, we're seeing a new variant which will no doubt cause wave #5? #6? we're back to restricting travel etc. Introverts obviously love it but is this going to go on for another 2 years? Can people actually take/accept that? Look at the protests across the globe. Even older people are saying "Just lets get on with life, stop saving people with only a few years left anyway". Which is a horrible thing to consider but they're saying it themselves.

 

[FireFly]

Understood, so ...

1) More deadly yes, but to whom? The elderly & those with various other conditions? Again, to be pushing teenagers etc to be booster jabbed etc just seems a bit scaremongery when they generally have good immune systems and like any virus, when they catch it and feel ill, they'll mostly stay in bed anyway.

2) What happens when the next virus pops up? Does Covid get put in the same category as flu to focus on the new shiny one? Surely the focus should be to increase hospital capacity on top of jabs. What if the current vaccines don't work properly against Omicron, does that mean Governments have spent billions on vaccines that are essentially no use? Or what if they're fine with Omicron but new variant Bojo in March 2022 escapes it... Looks like "firefighting" to me.

3) Yes, and lots (and I mean, lots) of people are dying from other illnesses and conditions. I won't go into the whole mental health thing as it feels like the "excuse" for everything these days, but when so many businesses etc are going under its hard to ignore.

4) Which vaccines may not resolve, see point #2. This is now 2 years of Covid, we're seeing "yet another wave" in Europe, we're seeing a new variant which will no doubt cause wave #5? #6? we're back to restricting travel etc. Introverts obviously love it but is this going to go on for another 2 years? Can people actually take/accept that? Look at the protests across the globe. Even older people are saying "Just lets get on with life, stop saving people with only a few years left anyway". Which is a horrible thing to consider but they're saying it themselves.

Your original question was why the booster jab should be offered to young healthy people. And my response was that this was to prevent them from spreading the virus to the more vulnerable and reduce the load on the healthcare system.

None of your 4 points above do anything to discount that motivation. I think the firefighting analogy is on point. Our house is on fire now and we have a fire extinguisher. We can ignore the fire because we are tired of putting out fires, and if some people die so be it. Or we can say, this fire extinguisher may not be able to stop the next fire, so let's just give up now. Or let's just let this house burn down, since the real problem is it was not built correctly, and we can fix this next time.

Or we can use the tools we do have to save the lives we are able to save now.

 

[T8SC]

Your original question was why the booster jab should be offered to young healthy people. And my response was that this was to prevent them from spreading the virus to the more vulnerable and reduce the load on the healthcare system.

None of your 4 points above do anything to discount that motivation. I think the firefighting analogy is on point. Our house is on fire now and we have a fire extinguisher. We can ignore the fire because we are tired of putting out fires, and if some people die so be it. Or we can say, this fire extinguisher may not be able to stop the next fire, so let's just give up now. Or let's just let this house burn down, since the real problem is it was not built correctly, and we can fix this next time.

Or we can use the tools we do have to save the lives we are able to save now.

Yes, I agree we use the fire extinguisher to put the fire out as this is the initial "oh shit, gotta do something" response. However, 2 years later, we need to put that extinguisher away and actually have a transparent plan for this. Currently its just a flip flop between, get a vaccine, get another vaccine, oh shit it wears off, minor lockdown, another wave, booster jab, new varient, new lockdown etc rinse & repeat.

If you were to expand that "summarised" timeline above over another 2-3 years, would you actually be satisfied?

June 2024, Poland seems to be having wave #8, Germany & Belgium also reporting higher numbers. We need everyone to get booster #6 in the UK/US/Spain etc.

^^^ Yes it's made up, but in December 2019, if I wrote the above as November 2021, people would've probably said "Don't be silly, it'll be over by then".

 

[FireFly]

Yes, I agree we use the fire extinguisher to put the fire out as this is the initial "oh shit, gotta do something" response. However, 2 years later, we need to put that extinguisher away and actually have a transparent plan for this. Currently its just a flip flop between, get a vaccine, get another vaccine, oh shit it wears off, minor lockdown, another wave, booster jab, new varient, new lockdown etc rinse & repeat.

If you were to expand that "summarised" timeline above over another 2-3 years, would you actually be satisfied?

June 2024, Poland seems to be having wave #8, Germany & Belgium also reporting higher numbers. We need everyone to get booster #6 in the UK/US/Spain etc.

^^^ Yes it's made up, but in December 2019, if I wrote the above as November 2021, people would've probably said "Don't be silly, it'll be over by then".

If there is a fire in your house every year, you have to pull out the fire extinguisher every year, so yes that means a yearly booster if needed. Is that so much worse than spending billions on hospital capacity that isn't needed 99% of the time? Or just letting people die?

I think the 5 minutes needed to get an injection pales into comparison with the year and a half lost to lockdown. I find it strange there is such resistance to a solution that requires so little effort on the part of individuals. In the future we will likely have vaccines in pill form, so you will just take your 1 pill a year, and that's that.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

It doesn't matter if vaccination works, some people are morally against it and they can die off and take the risk. however u give people a chose of free will or you become a dictatorship like shitholes like austria.

Unfortunately this is not how it works because all those brave people 'morally opposed' (lol) to vaccination will then beg for a shot while dying. Also, unfortunately, part of government's job is to take care of you even though you are stupid, hence vaccination pass, lockdowns, etc.

 

[T8SC]

If there is a fire in your house every year, you have to pull out the fire extinguisher every year, so yes that means a yearly booster if needed. Is that so much worse than spending billions on hospital capacity that isn't needed 99% of the time? Or just letting people die?

I think the 5 minutes needed to get an injection pales into comparison with the year and a half lost to lockdown. I find it strange there is such resistance to a solution that requires so little effort on the part of individuals. In the future we will likely have vaccines in pill form, so you will just take your 1 pill a year, and that's that.

If there was a fire in my house every year, I'd be spending my money to do a RCA and manage issue to resolution to save getting the extinguisher out. Also, we've spent billions on vaccines already, which are a one time thing ... like renting vs buying. Spend billions renting and essentially its over & the money is gone as is the product... or buy (expand hospitals) which are there whether you need them or not in future, could be transformed into a hotel/cafe/apartments for long term patients family etc.

The problem is, the current "solution" isn't a solution. It's a haphazard firefight which has an ongoing cost associated. You want to keep spending those billions on jabs?

If a project manager said to me "oh you'll need to do this every year, it'll cost X amount each time, or it'll fail" ... I'd find another/better solution. I'd rather spend a lot in the outset than consistently spend "renting" time over years.


EDIT: I'm not saying dont get jabbed, I'm saying there needs to be a better solution or a better vaccine or something to save a 6 month booster, potentially, for the rest of a persons life. If they're 16, that could be a long time and a lot of money.

EDIT 2: People used to complain that the PS3/4 got a lot of stability updates (lets call them jabs) ... so much so, that it became a meme (Got anymore of dem stability updates?) .... yet you're accepting being "patched" on a bi-yearly basis. No, there needs to be a better solution. (Same goes for Sony, fix yo shit).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

or buy (expand hospitals) which are there whether you need them or not in future, could be transformed into a hotel/cafe/apartments for long term patients family etc.

Are you for real with that? Even putting aside the fact that hospitals do not get build in a week + you need staff to operate them - please show me a country in the world with your 'hospitals as cafes, then hospitals again if needed', I will wait.

People in this thread really think healthcare system is like a rubber.

 

[T8SC]

Are you for real with that? Even putting aside the fact that hospitals do not get build in a week + you need staff to operate them - please show me a country in the world with your 'hospitals as cafes, then hospitals again if needed', I will wait.

People in this thread really think healthcare system is like a rubber.

I seem to recall China getting hospitals built pretty quick. There's also plenty of places that get converted.

Here's some converted hospitals:

300 homes at £100m hospital conversion | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard

Old Chapel hospital transformed into apartments · PHPD Online

Homes in former hospitals and infirmaries – in pictures | Money | The Guardian

If you want to live in a reactionary world and be so black & white that there's no alternative and unwilling to accept there should be alternatives then, well, so be it. However, I believe there can be better ways to deal with things, better solutions than what we currently have.

What we have is a set of vaccines (which cost) that need boosted every 6 months (which costs) and may not deal with current or future variants and will need re-developed (which costs) and then bought by governments again (which costs) and the old vaccines thrown away (wasted cost).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I seem to recall China getting hospitals built pretty quick.

China in general does things pretty quickly, but I surely do not want to go to a hospital being build with Chinese construction standards. And everyone in this thread definitely doesn't want to live in a country which locks down a city of 10mln due to single-digit new cases and imposes draconian lockdowns where you are unable to get out of your apartment for a month.

 

[T8SC]

China in general does things pretty quickly, but I surely do not want to go to a hospital being build with Chinese construction standards. And everyone in this thread definitely doesn't want to live in a country which locks down a city of 10mln due to single-digit new cases and imposes draconian lockdowns where you are unable to get out of your apartment for a month.

Are you saying something that is developed quickly is unsafe?

Yes, people don't want to go through lockdowns over & over but look at the state of things after two years, we're still restricting travel, wearing masks, locking down isolated communities etc etc and you want to continue along this road for another few (or more) years? Rather than say "now hold on a minute, maybe we do what we do with the flu ... jab the old, jab the vulnerable and let the rest live their lives & let businesses open".

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Yes, people don't want to go through lockdowns over & over but look at the state of things after two years, we're still restricting travel, wearing masks, locking down isolated communities etc etc and you want to continue along this road for another few (or more) years? Rather than say "now hold on a minute, maybe we do what we do with the flu ... jab the old, jab the vulnerable and let the rest live their lives & let businesses open".

Wait, wait, so old and vulnerable people are required to take a jab, while for all the others it's a matter of choice? Doesn't look very democratic or egalitarian to me. While at it how about we make smokers pay for treating their lung cancer? See the slippery slope with that approach?

Or how about we do this? Vaccine that was proven safe, was already injected billions of times and is proven to work be given to people who will stop being toddlers and take responsibility if they want to live like nothing is happening? A jab takes a minute and I'm having a 3rd one in a few days, then it's chill for half a year. Need to take a new one for Omikron - ok, no problem.

 

[T8SC]

Wait, wait, so old and vulnerable people are required to take a jab, while for all the others it's a matter of choice? Doesn't look very democratic or egalitarian to me. While at it how about we make smokers pay for treating their lung cancer? See the slippery slope with that approach?

Or how about we do this? Vaccine that was proven safe, was already injected billions of times and is proven to work be given to people who will stop being toddlers and take responsibility if they want to live like nothing is happening? A jab takes a minute and I'm having a 3rd one in a few days, then it's chill for half a year. Need to take a new one for Omikron - ok, no problem.

It's what the NHS currently does for the flu, does this mean the UK isn't democratic or egalitarian?

Taken from NHS website:

Summary of those who are recommended to have the flu vaccine
They include:

• everyone aged 65 and over
• everyone under 65 years of age who has a medical condition listed above, including children and babies over 6 months of age
• all pregnant women, at any stage of pregnancy
• all 2 and 3 year old children (provided they were aged 2 or 3 years old on 31 August of the current flu season)
• all children in primary school
• all Year 7 to Year 11 secondary school-aged children
• everyone living in a residential or nursing home
• everyone who cares for an older or disabled person
• all frontline health and social care workers

Those aged 50 to 64 years old will also be offered flu vaccination this year.


Therefore, with the exception of this year, anyone "healthy" between 16-65 does not get the flu jab. This is what I'm saying with Covid but you think it's not democratic for some reason.


If you want to continue to jab twice a year until you die, and aren't interested in getting governments & scientists to explore new avenues to find a better solution(s), then you are very short sighted and wasteful. Personally I don't want to experience another two years of lockdowns, restrictions and whatever else is forced upon us, I also don't want a bi-yearly jab to healthy people to be a "solution".

Follow the flu guidelines, as set out above by the NHS, for Covid and develop a better solution. This may take time, it may be that a small number of people die for one reason or another but the long term goal is to find an effective & efficient solution and not firefight with vaccines that may not even work with new variants and are an ongoing cost to all nations.

 

[poppabk]

Ok, I understand that and I've nothing against vaccines (Just to reiterate this). However, why aren't we trying to get the same "herd immunity" against flu? Why aren't we pushing for the same age groups etc to be jabbed for that? If I passed the flu on to an elderly person/underlying issues person, then the risk is similar/same.

We have the vaccine(s), we have the ability (Ok maybe not at present with the Covid push) so why is it different? Genuine question.

We do push for the flu vaccine every year. But the uptake is pretty poor. My company has on-site flu vaccines and also gives you money in a health spending account if you get it, every pharmacy and grocery store has signs up about getting the flu shot, and they are pushing the flu vaccine/booster whenever you sign up for a booster. This is the US, I am sure some countries are less capitalistic about the whole thing and try and ration the vaccine for the most vulnerable and most likely to comply.

 

[FireFly]

If there was a fire in my house every year, I'd be spending my money to do a RCA and manage issue to resolution to save getting the extinguisher out. Also, we've spent billions on vaccines already, which are a one time thing ... like renting vs buying. Spend billions renting and essentially its over & the money is gone as is the product... or buy (expand hospitals) which are there whether you need them or not in future, could be transformed into a hotel/cafe/apartments for long term patients family etc.

The problem is, the current "solution" isn't a solution. It's a haphazard firefight which has an ongoing cost associated. You want to keep spending those billions on jabs?

If a project manager said to me "oh you'll need to do this every year, it'll cost X amount each time, or it'll fail" ... I'd find another/better solution. I'd rather spend a lot in the outset than consistently spend "renting" time over years.


EDIT: I'm not saying dont get jabbed, I'm saying there needs to be a better solution or a better vaccine or something to save a 6 month booster, potentially, for the rest of a persons life. If they're 16, that could be a long time and a lot of money.

So far the UK has spent £11.7 billion on the vaccination program, but that includes the capital setup costs, and the costs of ordering many more vaccines than we actually need. Even so, that's only 5.5% of the total health budget. It remains to be seen whether it would cheaper say, to double hospital capacity over an extended basis. But increasing capacity doesn't itself prevent disease and death, and we can't know how big future waves will be in the worst case, so we don't know if we would need to triple or quadruple capacity.

Returning to the fire analogy, the point is that we already understand how to prevent a fire. We don't understand how the virus will mutate and we don't yet have a quick and effective way of stopping transmission between individuals. These things are already being worked on, and we already have drugs being rolled out that can substantially stop the risks of hospitalisation/death once infected. Eventually we will get a vaccine that can target all parts of the virus, not just the spike protein, so the variant issue should go away. And as these solutions become more widespread, costs will fall too. The barrier is not that people forgot to sit in a room together to discuss strategies to stop the virus spreading. The barrier is that this is a new virus and we literally don't understand how it works yet. Just expecting knowledge to drop out of the air really isn't productive, and neither I think is the hesitancy around the solutions we do have now, which were developed in amazingly quick time.

Edit:

Personally I don't want to experience another two years of lockdowns, restrictions and whatever else is forced upon us, I also don't want a bi-yearly jab to healthy people to be a "solution".

The most likely route out of lockdowns is to stop people spreading the virus, not letting it run rampant and praying the extra capacity you built is enough. We only have enough capacity now because of the vaccine program.

 

[T8SC]

We do push for the flu vaccine every year. But the uptake is pretty poor. My company has on-site flu vaccines and also gives you money in a health spending account if you get it, every pharmacy and grocery store has signs up about getting the flu shot, and they are pushing the flu vaccine/booster whenever you sign up for a booster. This is the US, I am sure some countries are less capitalistic about the whole thing and try and ration the vaccine for the most vulnerable and most likely to comply.

In the UK, it is as follows, i'll post it again as it seems to be getting missed each time:

Summary of those who are recommended to have the flu vaccine
They include:

• everyone aged 65 and over
• everyone under 65 years of age who has a medical condition listed above, including children and babies over 6 months of age
• all pregnant women, at any stage of pregnancy
• all 2 and 3 year old children (provided they were aged 2 or 3 years old on 31 August of the current flu season)
• all children in primary school
• all Year 7 to Year 11 secondary school-aged children
• everyone living in a residential or nursing home
• everyone who cares for an older or disabled person
• all frontline health and social care workers

Those aged 50 to 64 years old will also be offered flu vaccination this year.


I believe this is how we should be with Covid now BUT also researching for a better solution than what we currently have which is not cost-effective (some would argue, effective at all).

 

[poppabk]

Eventually we will get a vaccine that can target all parts of the virus, not just the spike protein, so the variant issue should go away.

I don't think this will be the way we go or is even a good idea. The spike protein is the unique thing in this virus, it's what makes it so transmisable and so deadly. Mutations in the spike protein that are significant enough to provide immune escape are likely to have negative effects on the virus rendering them akin to normal human coronaviruses (ie a cold).
There is no real need currently to have a vaccine that targets anything but the spike protein.

 

[FireFly]

Mutations in the spike protein that are significant enough to provide immune escape are likely to have negative effects on the virus rendering them akin to normal human coronaviruses (ie a cold).

Do you have a source for this claim?

 

[Cyberpunkd]

In the UK, it is as follows, i'll post it again as it seems to be getting missed each time:

Covid is not like a flu, why are we still arguing that? You have the damn graph comparing flu and Covid on this very page, and that is taking into account all the lockdowns, etc.

 

[sinnergy]

After only 3 months another booster why not drip feed all humans .

 

[Cyberpunkd]

After only 3 months another booster why not drip feed all humans .

 

[T8SC]

And we're done with this discussion.

You don't want to see any alternatives, you're tunnel vision on jabs and that's that.

Crack on.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

And we're done with this discussion.

You don't want to see any alternatives, you're tunnel vision on jabs and that's that.

Crack on.

We can talk about the alternatives all we want, at the same time something must be done NOW, not in 3 months, not in 6 months.

 

[T8SC]

We can talk about the alternatives all we want, at the same time something must be done NOW, not in 3 months, not in 6 months.

And your answer to "now" is, accelerate the booster campaign which may not actually be effective against the new or future variants.

Sounds like a grand idea. Trial & error.

 

[Nobody_Important]

And your answer to "now" is, accelerate the booster campaign which may not actually be effective against the new or future variants.

Sounds like a grand idea. Trial & error.

And your answer is what exactly?

 

[Cyberpunkd]

And your answer to "now" is, accelerate the booster campaign which may not actually be effective against the new or future variants.

Sounds like a grand idea. Trial & error.

It might be, it might not, but for sure it is a lot better than your idea of 'I'm scared, let's put it on hold till we have more data and if it is beneficial we will have weeks of delay and hospitals will get fucked before we control it again. But hey, we can always order another lockdown!'.

The vaccine is effective against Covid, new variant still shares some part with previous ones, it's not a completely new virus. So - intelligent guess - accelerating vaccination is probably a good idea.

 

[ParaSeoul]

Anti vaxxers still around?
For how much longer I wonder...

 

[T8SC]

And your answer is what exactly?

Again, I'll repeat what I've wrote 3 times already:

Follow the NHS's yearly plan with flu, and I quote again:

Summary of those who are recommended to have the flu vaccine
They include:

• everyone aged 65 and over
• everyone under 65 years of age who has a medical condition listed above, including children and babies over 6 months of age
• all pregnant women, at any stage of pregnancy
• all 2 and 3 year old children (provided they were aged 2 or 3 years old on 31 August of the current flu season)
• all children in primary school
• all Year 7 to Year 11 secondary school-aged children
• everyone living in a residential or nursing home
• everyone who cares for an older or disabled person
• all frontline health and social care workers

Those aged 50 to 64 years old will also be offered flu vaccination this year.


Let the other majority age group of healthy people live their lives, let businesses open and let the economy breathe WHILST we find and develop either a new vaccine that targets more of the virus or we develop something else, I'm not a scientist but there has to be something other than jabbing "everyone" with various vaccines until one fits.

It might be, it might not, but for sure it is a lot better than your idea of 'I'm scared, let's put it on hold till we have more data and if it is beneficial we will have weeks of delay and hospitals will get fucked before we control it again. But hey, we can always order another lockdown!'.

"I'm scared" Where the hell have you got that from? I'm the one saying we need to jab (if neccessary) the old and vulnerable and everyone else (which includes me) get on with life. Sounds like i'm shitting my pants wanting to continue to live my life. As for ordering another lockdown, yeah because 9 months of jabbing has really done well on that front. Australia & Japan have closed their borders and the UK is back wearing cloth masks etc.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Let the other majority age group of healthy people live their lives, let businesses open and let the economy breathe WHILST we find and develop either a new vaccine that targets more of the virus or we develop something else, I'm not a scientist but there has to be something other than jabbing "everyone" with various vaccines until one fits.

But they can live their lives, in fact I have been doing it no problem despite restrictions in France since they do not apply to vaccinated people.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Again, I'll repeat what I've wrote 3 times already:

Follow the NHS's yearly plan with flu, and I quote again:

Summary of those who are recommended to have the flu vaccine
They include:

• everyone aged 65 and over
• everyone under 65 years of age who has a medical condition listed above, including children and babies over 6 months of age
• all pregnant women, at any stage of pregnancy
• all 2 and 3 year old children (provided they were aged 2 or 3 years old on 31 August of the current flu season)
• all children in primary school
• all Year 7 to Year 11 secondary school-aged children
• everyone living in a residential or nursing home
• everyone who cares for an older or disabled person
• all frontline health and social care workers

Those aged 50 to 64 years old will also be offered flu vaccination this year.


Let the other majority age group of healthy people live their lives, let businesses open and let the economy breathe WHILST we find and develop either a new vaccine that targets more of the virus or we develop something else, I'm not a scientist but there has to be something other than jabbing "everyone" with various vaccines until one fits.

Healthy people are being allowed to live their lives. I'm vaccinated, healthy, and living mine just fine. Also what country are you in where businesses are not open? Genuinely curious because things have been open here in the US for awhile now. Aside from local mask mandates everything is already basically back to normal where I live.


As for your ridiculous take on the vaccine I don't even know what to say to that.

 

[FireFly]

"I'm scared" Where the hell have you got that from? I'm the one saying we need to jab (if neccessary) the old and vulnerable and everyone else (which includes me) get on with life. Sounds like i'm shitting my pants wanting to continue to live my life.

What's the harm in offering a jab to people if they want it, if the result is that the virus peaks sooner, and less people get ill and die? In the short term the vaccines are already purchased, so I can't see a cost benefit. And anything that decreases the chance of a future lockdown must be highly attractive, right?

 

[T8SC]

But they can live their lives, in fact I have been doing it no problem despite restrictions in France since they do not apply to vaccinated people.

Really?

Can you travel to Japan or Australia?

Do you need to test yourself when visited other countries?

Do you need to show a passport to get in places?

Have you been lucky enough to keep your job? business?

What country are you in where businesses are not open? Genuinely curious because things have been open here in the US for awhile now. Aside from local mask mandates everything is already basically back to normal where I live.

As for your ridiculous take on the vaccine I don't even know what to say to that.

UK, businesses are open but there's rumblings of further lockdowns, this is what I'm getting at... the press were questioning the PM regarding both the "Plan B" which involves WFH. What if you cant? IE: Gyms ... they shut.

What is ridiculous about it? Van Tam has already hinted that the vaccine (as we currently know it) may not be effective against Omicron, yet still we push for people to take it.


Edit: Other countries have entered lockdowns like Austria & Slovakia.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Really?

Can you travel to Japan or Australia?

Do you need to test yourself when visited other countries?

Do you need to show a passport to get in places?

Travelling to other countries is determined by said countries, it's up to them. Do I need to show passport to get in places? Yes, getting it took me 2 x 5 minutes to get a shot back in May and June.

Recently France changed the requirement for PCR tests from 72 to 24 hours - result? Incredible queues in front of testing center. Everyone can get vaccinated here from June 1st, and yet 6 months later you have adults that act like idiots and would much rather spend hours in front of testing station. I'm sure they will finish 'just educating myself' any moment now. /s

 

[Nobody_Important]

Really?

Can you travel to Japan or Australia?

Do you need to test yourself when visited other countries?

Do you need to show a passport to get in places?

Have you been lucky enough to keep your job? business?




UK, businesses are open but there's rumblings of further lockdowns, this is what I'm getting at... the press were questioning the PM regarding both the "Plan B" which involves WFH. What if you cant? IE: Gyms ... they shut.

What is ridiculous about it? Van Tam has already hinted that the vaccine (as we currently know it) may not be effective against Omicron, yet still we push for people to take it.


Edit: Other countries have entered lockdowns like Austria & Slovakia.

Just because a new variant is out does not mean we just stop protecting ourselves from what is already being spread around and what has already killed millions of people. That is fucking stupid. Especially given that we don't even know for sure what the extent of the Omicron variant is yet. We won't know for at least a week or two. The idea that we should just stop everything vaccine related just because the vaccine MIGHT have a lesser effect on the Omicron variant is also stupid. Because odds are the vaccine will still be more effective than no vaccine at all and that means that people should still be getting vaccinated.



I feel like i should even have to explain any of this. This is basic common sense.

 

[T8SC]

Travelling to other countries is determined by said countries, it's up to them. Do I need to show passport to get in places? Yes, getting it took me 2 x 5 minutes to get a shot back in May and June.

Recently France changed the requirement for PCR tests from 72 to 24 hours - result? Incredible queues in front of testing center. Everyone can get vaccinated here from June 1st, and yet 6 months later you have adults that act like idiots and would much rather spend hours in front of testing station. I'm sure they will finish 'just educating myself' any moment now. /s

You carry on then, if you're happy with this current solution then great stuff.

Just because a new variant is out does not mean we just stop protecting ourselves from what is already being spread around and what has already killed millions of people. That is fucking stupid. Especially given that we don't even know for sure what the extent of the Omicron variant is yet. We won't know for at least a week or two. The idea that we should just stop everything vaccine related just because the vaccine MIGHT have a lesser effect on the Omicron variant is also stupid. Because odds are the vaccine will still be more effective than no vaccine at all and that means that people should still be getting vaccinated.



I feel like i should even have to explain any of this. This is basic common sense.

Sticking something into the human body that "might" work isn't good enough. Especially if in a few weeks time they say "Hey Mr X, yeah you need a new vaccine cos that other one doesn't work with Omicron ... come down for more goodness".

Sorry but no, not for the healthy. Old? Vulnerable? yes .. crack on.

Healthy people? No, wait. Most (hopefully) are already double jabbed and will have their own human immune system (we have one of those, comes as standard on all Human Beings from date 0 onwards, you don't need to be a GTI model).

But I'm pissing into the wind here, so I'm off to the gym shortly, with my fucking mask again, cos you know ... progress. Ciao bella.

 

[QSD]

Healthy people are being allowed to live their lives. I'm vaccinated, healthy, and living mine just fine. Also what country are you in where businesses are not open? Genuinely curious because things have been open here in the US for awhile now. Aside from local mask mandates everything is already basically back to normal where I live.


As for your ridiculous take on the vaccine I don't even know what to say to that.

Here in the Netherlands the vaxx rate is substantial but we've entered another very restrictive lockdown. Basically everything is shut after 17:00 except supermarkets. No concerts, no bars/restaurants, no nothing.

 

[Rentahamster]

My Dad recently got his booster & flu jab (one in each arm) at the same time.

Why? Because he's older (obviously) and both could kill him.

Both viruses are deadly.

Why do I (A healthy young man) need a Covid booster but not a flu jab? Or rather, why am I being pushed to get a booster (in the coming weeks) and yet flu jab, nah bro.

Am I likely to die from flu? No.
Am I likely to die from Covid? No.

Booster jab - Pushed. (Every 6 months it seems since it all wears off).
Flu jab - Nah.

Anyone want to shed a bit of logical light on this?

Did someone ask for logic?

Premise 1: The flu is dangerous on a population level and requires some level of vaccination policy to maintain public health.
Premise 2: COVID is much more dangerous (about 10x more deadly) than the flu on a population level (12-52 thousand flu deaths per year in the USA vs 385 thousand in 2020 and 395 thousand so far in 2021 in the USA)
Conclusion: Therefore, to maintain public health, COVID's vaccination policy should be more robust and comprehensive than the flu's vaccination policy, in order to match the threat level of COVID, similar to other diseases which have already had vaccination mandates for decades in the USA - strategies that are proven to work.

Is this sufficient logical light?

 

[T8SC]

Did someone ask for logic?

Premise 1: The flu is dangerous on a population level and requires some level of vaccination policy to maintain public health.
Premise 2: COVID is much more dangerous (about 10x more deadly) than the flu on a population level (12-52 thousand flu deaths per year in the USA vs 385 thousand in 2020 and 395 thousand so far in 2021 in the USA)
Conclusion: Therefore, to maintain public health, COVID's vaccination policy should be more robust and comprehensive than the flu's vaccination policy, in order to match the threat level of COVID, similar to other diseases which have already had vaccination mandates for decades in the USA - strategies that are proven to work.

Is this sufficient logical light?

Yes, and people should be double vaccinated.

However to push a booster into the healthy populace, which may not combat Omicron is, IMO, wrong.

Give it to the priorities, the old & vulnerable but lets give it 2 weeks or so to see if its even worth putting into people who are healthy, see how Omicron reacts to it etc.

That is my take on it. Focus on the priority people and leave the healthy folk alone until we get some more answers.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Here in the Netherlands the vaxx rate is substantial but we've entered another very restrictive lockdown. Basically everything is shut after 17:00 except supermarkets. No concerts, no bars/restaurants, no nothing.

And you have a very clear tool to voice your opinion on that - voting. Because if the same stuff will be applied in France I am not voting for Macron next year, simple.

 

[funkygunther]

Sticking something into the human body that "might" work isn't good enough. Especially if in a few weeks time they say "Hey Mr X, yeah you need a new vaccine cos that other one doesn't work with Omicron ... come down for more goodness".

Sorry but no, not for the healthy. Old? Vulnerable? yes .. crack on.

Healthy people? No, wait. Most (hopefully) are already double jabbed and will have their own human immune system (we have one of those, comes as standard on all Human Beings from date 0 onwards, you don't need to be a GTI model).

But I'm pissing into the wind here, so I'm off to the gym shortly, with my fucking mask again, cos you know ... progress. Ciaobella.

Delta is still the dominant strain, hence "get the jab". If Omicron becomes the dominant strain, then we'll need to see how vaccines cope with it at that point.

You don't have to wear the mask at the gym, maybe at the front desk.

 

[T8SC]

Delta is still the dominant strain, hence "get the jab". If Omicron becomes the dominant strain, then we'll need to see how vaccines cope with it at that point.

You don't have to wear the mask at the gym, maybe at the front desk.

They "advise" us to and yes, mandatory from entrance to whichever place you sit/stand/lay at including changing rooms.

As for dominant strain, from what I read, the Omicron variant has already spread rapidly in African countries to become dominant in certain areas and they (media? scientists?) expect it to be the case when it gets to other areas too.

Anyway, gym time. No more replies from me.

Enjoy. Peace.

 

[QSD]

Yes, and people should be double vaccinated.

However to push a booster into the healthy populace, which may not combat Omicron is, IMO, wrong.

Give it to the priorities, the old & vulnerable but lets give it 2 weeks or so to see if its even worth putting into people who are healthy, see how Omicron reacts to it etc.

That is my take on it. Focus on the priority people and leave the healthy folk alone until we get some more answers.

A month or two ago there was a lot of discussion on tv whether we should start giving out boosters or whether it would be more strategic to donate the booster vaxx doses towards africa and get the vaxx rate over there higher. I think the official line of the WHO is still that vaccination worldwide is supposed to get priority over local boosters.

I figured we should just give people a choice: either take a booster, or donate your booster dose toward africa. That way everyone can feel good about themselves at least.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yes, and people should be double vaccinated.

However to push a booster into the healthy populace, which may not combat Omicron is, IMO, wrong.

Give it to the priorities, the old & vulnerable but lets give it 2 weeks or so to see if its even worth putting into people who are healthy, see how Omicron reacts to it etc.

That is my take on it. Focus on the priority people and leave the healthy folk alone until we get some more answers.

Yes? Does that mean you accept my logical syllogism? Because it doesn't sound like it from the rest of what you wrote.


edit: Is your point of contention the boosters specifically? You agree that COVID is more dangerous than the flu. You agree that a more robust vaccination policy is needed for COVID. You agree that double vaccination for everyone is sound policy for COVID.

But you don't agree that boosters are necessary in the aforementioned robust vaccination policy for COVID. Is that right?

 

[FireFly]

Lockdowns are bad, but we shouldn't use a tool we we already purchased and have available, that can help prevent them. Because reasons.

 

[Kenpachii]

Unfortunately this is not how it works because all those brave people 'morally opposed' (lol) to vaccination will then beg for a shot while dying. Also, unfortunately, part of government's job is to take care of you even though you are stupid, hence vaccination pass, lockdowns, etc.

I don't think anti vaxxers are brave ( i know what u say is probably sacrasme ), they are dumb as hell and i would rather have them all vaccinated. But there are limits in my view of freedom to what u can or can't demand from people. If people simple refuse to apply with these rules to there core, then start making alternative solutions which are doable but will require restructuring of the current healthcare system and investments that goverments don't want to do and its obviously clear here they don't because of the shit they pulled earlier this year here.

But then again its easy for me to shout this because i am not the one that dies from cancer and can't go to a hospital because some dumbasses decided to yolo it. So i can see some people get triggered by my comments tho.

 

[Nobody_Important]

You carry on then, if you're happy with this current solution then great stuff.



Sticking something into the human body that "might" work isn't good enough. Especially if in a few weeks time they say "Hey Mr X, yeah you need a new vaccine cos that other one doesn't work with Omicron ... come down for more goodness".

Sorry but no, not for the healthy. Old? Vulnerable? yes .. crack on.

Healthy people? No, wait. Most (hopefully) are already double jabbed and will have their own human immune system (we have one of those, comes as standard on all Human Beings from date 0 onwards, you don't need to be a GTI model).

But I'm pissing into the wind here, so I'm off to the gym shortly, with my fucking mask again, cos you know ... progress. Ciao bella.

What the hell are you even talking about? We already know the vaccine works extremely well against regular Covid and the Delta variant. Those did not just magically disappear when the Omicron variant popped up. People still need to be vaccinated. Old, young, healthy, etc etc. Doesn't matter.

 

[poppabk]

Do you have a source for this claim?

Well we already have ample evidence of what coronavirus without this spike protein is like in humans such as 229e, we have probably all experienced it or something similar before but might not have even noticed.
As for the second part that is more conjecture, but you can only change so much in a receptor binding domain before it no longer binds effectively. We have computational studies that show there may be theoretical variants that are both as effective at binding and less immunogenic but that's currently in paper. In two years we have had multiple variants - but none have been highly infectious and had considerable immune escape.

In the UK, it is as follows, i'll post it again as it seems to be getting missed each time:

Summary of those who are recommended to have the flu vaccine
They include:

• everyone aged 65 and over
• everyone under 65 years of age who has a medical condition listed above, including children and babies over 6 months of age
• all pregnant women, at any stage of pregnancy
• all 2 and 3 year old children (provided they were aged 2 or 3 years old on 31 August of the current flu season)
• all children in primary school
• all Year 7 to Year 11 secondary school-aged children
• everyone living in a residential or nursing home
• everyone who cares for an older or disabled person
• all frontline health and social care workers

Those aged 50 to 64 years old will also be offered flu vaccination this year.


I believe this is how we should be with Covid now BUT also researching for a better solution than what we currently have which is not cost-effective (some would argue, effective at all).

This will likely be how countries like the UK deal with coronavirus once it becomes stably endemic. Note that these recommendations are based on needing to ration the flu vaccine not to protect the feelings of 30 year olds afraid of injections. Like I said, in the US where the jab is a money making enterprise it is available and actively recommended for pretty much anyone. But COVID has just fucked over the economy of the entire world, now is not the time to be rationing an abundant (in the west at least) vaccine.

 

[Rentahamster]

The only solution to this shit is not starting to threat anti vaxxers like jews in the second world war. but to expand hospitals rapidly to the point they can absorb the people that are ill.

I realize that hyperbole is used in some cases to emphasize a point, but the treatment of anti-vaxxers today and the treatment of jews before and during WW2 are two very different things, and your point is ruined because of it.

Expanding hospital capacity is an option and it was done a lot in 2020 when we didn't have access to the vaccine. Now that we do, utilizing the vaccine is a much more cost effective way to reduce hospitalizations. Ramping up hospitalization capacity when that is the not the only option on the table is an exercise in bad logistics and bad financial planning.

In my view any country that mandates vaccination can be put on a black list of never to be seen again.

Does that mean the USA has been on your black list for the past 60 years?

 

[funkygunther]

If people simple refuse to apply with these rules to there core, then start making alternative solutions which are doable but will require restructuring of the current healthcare system and investments that goverments don't want to do

I‘m sure if you show cost per head of increased hospital capacity, ICUs and staff needed to cope as if the extraordinary crisis was ordinary business then most antivaxxers wouldn’t want their tax dollars going to that either

 

[terintamel]

Since this is still a gaming forum I thought I would post this.

Chorus from intro song for Omikron Video Game
"Omikron You didn't feel us coming in this lonely crowd, it's always time"

Hopefully like the game this new varient is over-hyped nonsense.

 

[caffeware]