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Cruise Says Holmes 'Digs' Scientology

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Pellham

Banned
I don't believe Scientology is as bad as it seems. I've read all the same things you have, and I just don't see why I have any reason to believe these people. So I just prefer to stay neutral. Leave it alone, and if it's going to fall, it will, whether you bash it or not. It's a commercial venture and it will survive only according to the rules of a commercial venture. I'm jaded enough to know that's how the world works nowadays, and it's unfortunate, but you just have to keep on your toes...

So you'd believe Scientology's "success" stories, but not the well documented stories of its failures? Do the well publicized deaths caused by Scientology mean nothing to you?

You're hardly staying neutral if you're flat out defending Scientology as you have in previous posts on this thread. There's absolutely no humane reason to defend this cult.
 

Tarazet

Member
Pellham said:
So you'd believe Scientology's "success" stories, but not the well documented stories of its failures? Do the well publicized deaths caused by Scientology mean nothing to you?

You're hardly staying neutral if you're flat out defending Scientology as you have in previous posts on this thread. There's absolutely no humane reason to defend this cult.

I don't like Scientology. But I simply don't want to be bothered. If I had a choice, I wouldn't go after them directly - I would go after the government, because it is their policies towards non-profits that have allowed it to become what it is. There's deep potential for abuse and Scientology has milked every drop of that potential.
 

Hyoushi

Member
The Fair Game Policy and the fact that Scientology as an organisation also employs a sort of "secret police" which are known to have used surveillance, theft and threats against "enemies" are also things that differentiate the cult from organised religions.

The fact that the ideology is similar to eastern belief systems does not make it more respectable or plausible. On the contrary, Hubbard was a very strange man who took inspiration from all kinds of sources when he concocted the base for CoS.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
LakeEarth said:
Read demon's link. Good information, like how Hubbard's wife was arrested for some shady practices, etc.

Oh, that's not the half of it. The US, Canadian and German governments have all tried, and in many cases, convicted Scientologists for shady business practices. That doesn't include the various raids that have led to more legal battles in a handful of other countries, but Scientology does what Scientology does best -- tie up the legal system.

I think the worst offense at Scientology was setting up Narconon International, which is a front for the Church of Scientology and preys on vunerable drug addits as a drug rehabilation center. It milks them for money, and it's not even accredited by JCAHO or any medical organization that I know of. It also practices pseudo-medical science babble that's written by L. Ron Hubbard (and listed right on their website), which many claim are harmful for the "clients" that go into the program. It uses the name association to an actual real and accredited (and state licensed) drug rehab program, which is Narcotics Anonymous. After awhile in the program, and medical bills later, Narconon tries to recruit people into Scientology.

I'm sorry, that's fucked up. If Buddha was like that, he's a fucking asshole.

sonarrat said:
I would go after the government, because it is their policies towards non-profits that have allowed it to become what it is. There's deep potential for abuse and Scientology has milked every drop of that potential.

Sorry you're so misled. Hubbard asked for tax exempt status before he even set Scientology up as religion. After he was shot down, he turned his centers into "Churches" and leaders into ministers and so on. Poor, poor Scientology.

And yes, it's the government's fault that Scientology has swindled billions from people over the decades. Poor, poor Scientolgy -- for they could not survive without those precious billions!

If you don't think this is an obvious attempt to screw people out of money, you're just a fool.
 

Tarazet

Member
Hyoushi said:
The Fair Game Policy and the fact that Scientology as an organisation also employs a sort of "secret police" which are known to have used surveillance, theft and threats against "enemies" are also things that differentiate the cult from organised religions.

Again, not that I'm defending it, but just try and name a church that hasn't done such things. You can't. It's not right, but it's not unusual, either. All churches are corrupt.
 

White Man

Member
Willco said:
PUTTING ASIDE THEIR BUSINESS PRACTICES, WHICH HAVE BEEN LABELLED AS ORGANIZED CRIME IN SEVERAL COUNTRIES, AND HAVE DESTROYED PEOPLE'S LIVES, AS WELL AS HAVE LED TO SUICIDE...

... Scientology is quite cool!

Don't forget murder!

WHAT IS WITH ALL THE HATE? This is OA-grade shit. I don't care if it's Islam or Hinduism or what, this kind of trolling would be unacceptable in any circle of society. I will never, as long as I live, understand why a boutique version of Buddhism manages to raise so much ire.

I think I may've been the progenitor of the overt Scientology hate on this forum. Or at least I was doing it way before it was cool here. Just like I do everything way before it's cool.

Well, while I'd like to take credit for the hate here, I think Scientology has just been under a lot of public scrutiny lately, not because of deaths and the shady practices of the relijun, but because one of our precious celebrities is going crazy. At least in dictatorships, the cult of personality was focused on the lead despot. Here, the country revolves around every celebrity's inflated head, probably similar to how they think it does.

In short, America's culture is cancer-ridden and depraved and on a path that makes ennui-filled generations without any grand purpose.

And Scientology sucks.

EDIT: Also worth paying attention to, Media Arbiters: Note that in any of these fluff pieces (Katie digs Scientology), Scientology is treated with kids gloves. The stories implicitly imply that Scientology is bad without actually saying it. Every story about Tom being crazy in the past weeks has mentioned Scientology. Maybe a few of the pieces called it something connotative but benign, like 'nutty,' but none of these stories ever tried to explain why Scientology was a negative thing.

I'm a big Scientology hater, but that's extremely suspect.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
sonarrat said:
Again, not that I'm defending it, but just try and name a church that hasn't done such things. You can't. It's not right, but it's not unusual, either. All churches are corrupt.

You can name churches that have done these things in the past. You can't name churches that have done it in the present -- which Scientology exists in NOW.

Not 60 years ago. Not hundreds of years ago. NOW.

White Man said:
I think I may've been the progenitor of the overt Scientology hate on this forum. Or at least I was doing it way before it was cool here. Just like I do everything way before it's cool.

Well, while I'd like to take credit for the hate here, I think Scientology has just been under a lot of public scrutiny lately, not because of deaths and the shady practices of the relijun, but because one of our precious celebrities is going crazy. At least in dictatorships, the cult of personality was focused on the lead despot. Here, the country revolves around every celebrities inflated head, probably similar to how they think it does.

In short, America's culture is cancer-ridden and depraved and on a path that makes ennui-filled generations without any grand purpose.

And Scientology sucks.

Now here's a man whose cult I would join!
 

Tarazet

Member
Willco said:
You can name churches that have done these things in the past. You can't name churches that have done it in the present -- which Scientology exists in NOW.

Not 60 years ago. Not hundreds of years ago. NOW.

What do you think is happening in the Middle East? Priests in white robes making diplomatic visits to mosques and men in turbans making offerings to Israelite authorities?
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
sonarrat said:
What do you think is happening in the Middle East? Priests in white robes making diplomatic visits to mosques and men in turbans making offerings to Israelite authorities?

Care to elaborate on your statement? Because not only are you beating around the bush, I think you're about to go way off topic.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Waychel said:
that he would need to use some phony machine designed in the 1950's and sit in a room for several hours watching a gauge/dial. T
By the way, is this the thing where you hold onto two metal rods and watch a needle move around randomly, its movements supposedly revealing your inner-most secrets? :lol Some dianetics fuckers around Times Square talked me into using one of those as she poked and probed at my life, and I just sat there in astonishment at what bullshit it was. Then she handed me the Dianetics book and I realized this was all a front for Scientology. And oh, how it's changed my life! I'm a new man...
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
demon said:
By the way, is this the thing where you hold onto two metal rods and watch a needle move around randomly, its movements supposedly revealing your inner-most secrets? :lol Some dianetics fuckers around Times Square talked me into using one of those as she poked and probed at my life, and I just sat there in astonishment at what bullshit it was. Then she handed me the Dianetics book and I realized this was all a front for Scientology. And oh, how it's changed my life! I'm a new man...

dumbasscruise5zg.jpg


White Man said:
EDIT: Also worth paying attention to, Media Arbiters: Note that in any of these fluff pieces (Katie digs Scientology), Scientology is treated with kids gloves. The stories implicitly imply that Scientology is bad without actually saying it. Every story about Tom being crazy in the past weeks has mentioned Scientology. Maybe a few of the pieces called it something connotative but benign, like 'nutty,' but none of these stories ever tried to explain why Scientology was a negative thing.

I'm a big Scientology hater, but that's extremely suspect.

That's because it's pretty well documented that Scientology pays some media outlet's bills with ad revenue. And a lot of these reports come from people who specialize in Celebrity bullshit out in Los Angeles, and nobody wants to piss off the Church of Scientology in Hollywood. They'd be likely to react by shutting off celebrity interviews and like for any particular media organization that's critical, and that's just not an option.
 

Tarazet

Member
Willco said:
Care to elaborate on your statement? Because not only are you beating around the bush, I think you're about to go way off topic.

No, I'm not.. I'm just going to bow out gracefully at this point. I'm not making any impact, and I'm not arrogant enough to want to pound out a point that nobody wants to hear...
 

White Man

Member
demon said:
By the way, is this the thing where you hold onto two metal rods and watch a needle move around randomly, its movements supposedly revealing your inner-most secrets? :lol Some dianetics fuckers around Times Square talked me into using one of those as she poked and probed at my life, and I just sat there in astonishment at what bullshit it was. Then she handed me the Dianetics book and I realized this was all a front for Scientology. And oh, how it's changed my life! I'm a new man...

Yeah, these goons are actively recruiting every weekend in Seattle. It's more offensive than the homeless problem.

EDIT: If Philip K. Dick had made a religion. . .I'd be in.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Sonarrat: Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed in that people do not persue Scientology, Scientology persues you. It's a huge multi-level bait and switch like all other destructive cults which ensnare you on generic goodwill then once you're already convinced it's real they start telling what they REALLY believe and what it REALLY involves. :p

Regardless of what a group believes, ones that are deceptive deserve ZERO sympathy, respect, or support from anyone, period. Without deception Scientology would just be a group of Trekkies taking things too seriously, creepy but ultimately harmless.
 

Hyoushi

Member
sonarrat said:
What do you think is happening in the Middle East? Priests in white robes making diplomatic visits to mosques and men in turbans making offerings to Israelite authorities?
Hoo-boy. I feel sad for you now. Here is a tear: :'(

demon said:
By the way, is this the thing where you hold onto two metal rods and watch a needle move around randomly, its movements supposedly revealing your inner-most secrets? :lol Some dianetics fuckers around Times Square talked me into using one of those as she poked and probed at my life, and I just sat there in astonishment at what bullshit it was. Then she handed me the Dianetics book and I realized this was all a front for Scientology. And oh, how it's changed my life! I'm a new man...
Yup! That's the E-Meter! It measures your body thetans! It's like the midichlorians of the 60's!
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
sonarrat said:
No, I'm not.. I'm just going to bow out gracefully at this point. I'm not making any impact, and I'm not arrogant enough to want to pound out a point that nobody wants to hear...

I don't think you have a point that's relevant. Thanks for your time. Here's your free book on Dianetics and don't let the body thetans bite!
 

nitewulf

Member
her too??
celeb_lg_remini1.gif

i never looked into scientology before, it sounds liek crazy shit. like that comet death cult from the late 90s that commited mass suicide.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
nitewulf said:
i never looked into scientology before, it sounds liek crazy shit. like that comet death cult from the late 90s that commited mass suicide.

Scientology is nothing like that.

People can't give you money if they've committed suicide.
 

nitewulf

Member
iapetus said:
Scientology is nothing like that.

People can't give you money if they've committed suicide.
well of course not, i meant their their nutty scale is comparable. well, death cult is nuttier of course.
 
uh
As a brainwashed devotee of The Church of Scientology, the bah-humbugy Elfman stated that she couldn't support any organization that raised money for AIDS research or relief because 'AIDS is a state of mind, not a disease.' Get over it!
 

White Man

Member
Outlaw Pro Mod said:

These people also believe that homosexuality and drug and alcohol addiction can be cured with mega-doses of vitamins (giant doses of vitamins were something of a trend in the 60s and 70s, when Scientology really took off. In actuality, it causes health problems).
 

Azih

Member
Holy crap sonarrat but you're ignorant when it comes to the topic of relgion. Most every freaking religion triumphs the spirit over the body and your attempt to use that to paint Scientology as some sorta mini Buddhism is too absurd to even mock.

The whole *POINT* of Buddhism is to divest yourself of attachment to the material world, That Scientology doesn't puts them both at complete freaking odds at each other.

Edit: Ah this explains everything

but just try and name a church that hasn't done such things. You can't. It's not right, but it's not unusual, either. All churches are corrupt.
Not the 'all religions are der same' schitck again. Lord but you're mindlessly sticking to a braindead simplified view of a subject that's extremely complex.
 
sonarrat said:
WHAT IS WITH ALL THE HATE? This is OA-grade shit. I don't care if it's Islam or Hinduism or what, this kind of trolling would be unacceptable in any circle of society. I will never, as long as I live, understand why a boutique version of Buddhism manages to raise so much ire.

You haven't read up on Scientology at all have you? It is a ridiculously corrupt and dangerous cult whose sole design is to leech away all of their member's wealth.
 

ManaByte

Member
sonarrat said:
No, I'm not.. I'm just going to bow out gracefully at this point. I'm not making any impact, and I'm not arrogant enough to want to pound out a point that nobody wants to hear...

Let me guess, you're a Scientologist?
 

impirius

Member
ManaByte said:
Let me guess, you're a Scientologist?
You've got to be a specially trained Scientologist to visit Internet forums filled with SPs (supressive persons). For example, every Scientologist on alt.religion.scientology
 
D

Deleted member 4784

Unconfirmed Member
WTF... sonarrat, you're kidding, right?

Scientology is not a religion as the premise it was founded upon involves misleading vulnerable individuals into a closed off social environment whereby all venerable assets are slowly coerced from their possession. The moment that a person is "converted" (IE, swallows one inch of Dianetics tripe), they are whisked off to the nearest church headquarters so that the Rehabilitation Project Force can purge them of all past wrongs (in this life and those before) by brainwashing them over the course of several days. This is followed by a demand of absolute submission to the church, which itself entails total "disconnection" from all individuals outside the church that are not sympathetic to the ideals and cause of Scientology. This most commonly includes all family and personal relations to the recent convert.

Individuals are not free to worship on their own unless they purchase this set of gilded L. Ron Hubbard books or that limited edition leather-bound book on Dianetics. Similarly, Scientology is founded on the principle that all human beings are infested with "Body-Thetans" and that the only way to true peace and spiritual cleanliness is to have the body rid of them entirely. This belief secures dependency upon the church for "treatment" until the person has gone entirely bankrupt.

Most religions demand that the person looks inwardly or to their God for salvation, enlightenment, etc. However, Scientology is written in such a way that all paths to salvation diverge upon the church. These "services" are only rendered at a certain price; many of which exceed over a hundred thousand dollars when provided in the form of treatment. If you know anything about Buddhism, then you know that everything I have entailed above defies every philosophical aspect of that religion and it's practices.

There is a profound difference between what defines religion and what defines a cult.
 
You think Scientology is like all other religions? Check this out:

In its unending techno-censorship war on the Internet, Scientology has made another in its long history of unscrupulous moves. This time, Scientology surreptitiously orchestrated the installment of an invisible Internet censoring devise on the computers of its adult members. The danger of Scientology's tampering with the Internet goes beyond its own realm of criminality and fraud, but also branches out and provides an example for other similarly unethical organizations. It is time for the Internet to massively protest Scientology's ongoing censorship attempts, before other totalitarian groups learn from its example.

The censoring device was a program hidden on a CD provided to members by Scientology as part of its program to get Scientologists to set up home pages endorsing Scientology. The censorship software was developed from a program designed to prevent children from viewing material inappropriate for them, such as pornography and obscene language. But Scientology's version twists the program to prevent its grown-up members from viewing material critical of Scientology, largely without their consent, even if language and graphics are of G-level rating. In fact, the "church" has banned its members from viewing the terms "God" and "religion."
CHOPPY SURFING: Internet use becomes very difficult

Scientologists who have unknowingly installed the censoring device onto their computers have these strange results on the Internet:

*

On the Web, censored sites and search engines such as www.xenu.net, www.entheta.net, www.factnet.org, and www.dejanews.com are simply not accessible. It is as if web pages critical of Scientology do not exist.
*

On pages which are accessible, censored domain titles, words, and names are listed as blanks. For example, "www.xenu.net" might read " . . ". In addition, certain terms cause web pages to stop loading altogether.
*

In IRC discussions, some censored words appear blank, while others - such as Xenu, Wollersheim, and Erlich -- immediately disconnect the censorwared user from the channel. According to formerly censored ex-Scientologist Charlotte Kates, "It was nearly impossible to converse on IRC with the filter."
*

As for email, Scientologists with the filter program are unable to send or receive emails to or from people or web sites that Scientology has censored. So cult victims cannot converse with anyone the cult disapproves of, including exit counselors and victim-assistance organizations.
Link

They didn't tell their members that they were putting censorware on their computers. What an upfront honorable organization.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Scientology is a cult and a business. They are predators who treat celebs much differently than their "grunt" members in order to give it a more appealing public face. Scientology is not a religion, it is a diseased combination of science fiction and manipulative psychology.

www.xenu.com
 

Macam

Banned
Waychel said:
Scientology is not a religion as the premise it was founded upon involves misleading vulnerable individuals into a closed off social environment whereby all venerable assets are slowly coerced from their possession. The moment that a person is "converted" (IE, swallows one inch of Dianetics tripe), they are whisked off to the nearest church headquarters so that the Rehabilitation Project Force can purge them of all past wrongs (in this life and those before) by brainwashing them over the course of several days. This is followed by a demand of absolute submission to the church, which itself entails total "disconnection" from all individuals outside the church that are not sympathetic to the ideals and cause of Scientology. This most commonly includes all family and personal relations to the recent convert.

Buddhism was a bad comparison. Engineering is a better one.
 
There are some other big names who used to be Scientologists but got out:
Others who took Scientology courses, or who were members - some briefly - according to published reports, include football legend John Brodie, dancer Mikhail Baryshnikov, author William Burroughs; singers Van Morrison, Al Jarreau and Leonard Cohen; actors Emilio Estevez, Rock Hudson, Demi Moore, Candice Bergen, Brad Pitt, Christopher Reeve, Jerry Seinfeld and Patrick Swayze; and O.J. Simpson prosecutor Marcia Clark.

Also, the Observer newspaper of London recently linked actress Sharon Stone to Scientology.

Ex-Scientologists the church would like to forget include members of the suicidal Heaven's Gate cult, who were church members in the 1970s; and mass killer Charles Manson, who took church classes during a prison term that ended in 1967, before he and his cult followers massacred Sharon Tate and others.
Link

I remember hearing that Pitt was dabbling in Scientology when he was dating Juliette Lewis, who was and still is a member.

William S. Burroush was also a member for a while. He got out though and wrote many articles denouncing the cult.
 
Have you guys read about the splinter group from Scientology call the Process? Very interesting stuff:

The Process Church of Tthe Final Judgment holds a special place in occult lore. Supposedly borne of disaffected Scientologists and later accused of being the inspiration for both the Manson family and the Son Of Sam shootings, the Church faded from view in the 1970s. Now however it is back where it belongs, on the World Wide Web alongside every other crazy religion.

The Process Church combined community activism with a peculiar set of beliefs: Jehovah, Christ, Satan and Lucifer were not enemies, but all equal parts of Creation. These four personalities were all venerated, though only the 'good guys' were truly worshipped at first. Like many cults that formed in the late 1960s, the Processeans depended on both youthful enthusiasm and cultish practices of separation, unquestioned beliefs that they were the chosen ones, and an apocalyptic worldview. The Church's use of Scientology 'techniques' in order to determine the subconscious drives of members (drives personified by the four archetypes), and its misuse of Alfred Adler's view of the subconscious, helped keep members in line while 'The Teacher' Robert DeGrimston and 'The Oracle' Mary Anne Maclean waited for the end of the world. The world didn't end, but the 1960s did, with the Manson murders. Manson was originally associated with the Process by several writers (he contributed a meditation on Death to a Process newsletter), most notably in The Family: The Manson Group And Its Aftermath (New York: E.P. Dutton, 1971), a book about Manson written by Ed Sanders, and now available in a revised form as The Family: The Story Of Charles Manson's Dune Buggy Attack Battalion (New York: Panther, 1973).

By the early 1970s, the group was beginning to collapse in on itself. DeGrimston's increasing fascination with group sex, a neo-military social hierarchy and the increasing importance of Satan in his writings, alienated many unsuspecting Processeans, and Satan really made fundraising difficult as well. Predictably, it was DeGrimston's exploration of Satanic/Luciferian archetypes which attracted the most interest from critics, although Processean philosophy was closer to the Jesus Freak phenomena than neo-religious Satanic institutions like the Church of Satan or Temple of Set. The best scholarly study of this period is Satan's Power: A Deviant Psychotherapy Cult by William Sims Bainbridge (Los Angeles, CA: University of California Press, 1978).

DeGrimston was ousted and a new group arose from the ashes. The Founders kept going until the late 1970s, but were little more than a newsletter. The David Berkowitz slayings of 1977 didn't help the splinter group, as both the Process and a supposed Satanic fringe group were implicated in the murders. This worldview was widely promoted by Maury Terry's The Ultimate Evil: The Truth About the Cult Murders: Son of Sam & Beyond (New York: Barnes & Noble, 1999), a sensationalistic book written at the height of the Satanic Ritual Abuse rumour panic in 1987, and later released in a revised edition. Terry was succesfully sued by the Solar Lodge of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) for being erroneously linked to David Berkowitz and Charles Manson.

There is no evidence that The Process had anything to do with David Berkowitz or the Son Of Sam murders, outside of Berkowitz's own confused and contradictory testimony.

Today, the Church is back, as the largely secular Society Of Processeans. Interest in the group has been bouyed by magician Genesis P-Orridge's sampling of DeGrimston in the Psychic TV classic track 'Smile", which enabled Processean aesthetics to subtly infiltrate the Industrial subculture. The Society Of Processeans group is secular (having swept Satan under the rug), but still quotes DeGrimston liberally. Their projects include Safe Houses for battered women and Retrieval Networks which solicit donations from official nonprofits. This may sound good at first, but some hallmarks of a cult are isolating vulnerable people from the world at large, and depending on the "comfort of strangers."

Link
 

Ollie Pooch

In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
from xenu.net (a linked article from http://www.skeptictank.org/readdig.htm)

In the late 1940s, pulp writer L. Ron Hubbard declared:

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"

apparently the only reason it BECAME a 'religion' as opposed to a 'scientific' business is so it could obtain tax-exempt status :p
 

AssMan

Banned
I met John Travolta at a pizza/sports restaraunt here in Florida a long time ago. He was just visiting a HUGE scino-building in Clearwater.


These people are WEIRD. They walk around wearing the same outfit, both men and women(sometimes even kids), and they ask you questions like "What do you think of me?"
 

Pellham

Banned
Ex-Scientologists the church would like to forget include members of the suicidal Heaven's Gate cult

:lol awesome, didn't someone try to say it was dumb to compare scientology to the heaven's gate cult? well this proves them wrong!
 
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