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[Imru’ al-Qays]

Neither are that big. You can run from Gaping Dragon to Firelink in 2-3 minutes.

1. Assuming you know your way around the Depths, which someone playing through the game their first time very well might not. Part of the pleasure of Dark Souls is mastering the geography of the world so you can do things like get through the Depths in three minutes, it's not something that everyone is able to do from the moment they pick up the controller.

2. You picked an arbitrary point less than halfway through the Depths-Blighttown descent into darkness. Making it back from the Depths is one thing, making it back from the upper Blighttown bonfire is another thing, making it back from the lower Blighttown bonfire or Quelaag's is something else. The deeper you go the more oppressive it feels until you finally stumble on that shortcut - which you don't even realize is a shortcut back to Firelink until you're at the top of it.

 

[Ratrat]

1. Assuming you know your way around the Depths, which someone playing through the game their first time very well might not. Part of the pleasure of Dark Souls is mastering the geography of the world so you can do things like get through the Depths in three minutes, it's not something that everyone is able to do from the moment they pick up the controller.

2. You picked an arbitrary point less than halfway through the Depths-Blighttown descent into darkness. Making it back from the Depths is one thing, making it back from the upper Blighttown bonfire is another thing, making it back from the lower Blighttown bonfire or Quelaag's is something else. The deeper you go the more oppressive it feels until you finally stumble on that shortcut - which you don't even realize is a shortcut back to Firelink until you're at the top of it.

I replayed Dark Souls 1 for the first time since it's release recently and was warping within 7 hours. Quelaag is incredibly close to Firelink as well. I don't know, again, I think the tension only exists for people who are new to the series and dread every encounter. Series veterans...even if it's their first run they are not going to care so much. It's just an annoyance.

 

[Carl7]

Warping is stupid, agreed. Even DS1 gets worse after the Lord Vessel.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I replayed Dark Souls 1 for the first time since it's release recently and was warping within 7 hours. Quelaag is incredibly close to Firelink as well. I don't know, again, I think the tension only exists for people who are new to the series and dread every encounter. Series veterans...even if it's their first run they are not going to care so much. It's just an annoyance.

I mean, of course you beat the game quickly - it wasn't your first playthrough. You knew where to go, you half-remembered the level layouts, etc etc. Subsequent playthroughs of any Souls game are always drastically shorter than first playthroughs.

Quelaag is close to Firelink once you find the shortcut. That's the point.

And series veterans, which I and most other people in this thread are, hardly seem to view it as just "an annoyance."

 

[Lanrutcon]

I like warping.

I like clever level design more.

They can forgo the one if they provide the other.

 

[Carl7]

I replayed Dark Souls 1 for the first time since it's release recently and was warping within 7 hours. Quelaag is incredibly close to Firelink as well. I don't know, again, I think the tension only exists for people who are new to the series and dread every encounter. Series veterans...even if it's their first run they are not going to care so much. It's just an annoyance.

It's quite a long road if you don't take the master key, you have to go through upper Blightown( which is a hell) or find the way to Drakes Valley through Darkroot Basin.

 

[ZangBa]

The only thing I felt going through Blighttown was the horrible framerate.

 

[KittenMaster]

Warping is stupid, agreed. Even DS1 gets worse after the Lord Vessel.

I actually think it's really clever at the game starts out with world progression so different and insular than Demon's Souls, and then after you get the Lord Vessel, it turns the entire world into a hub which you access the "levels" like you would in Demon's Souls.

It's also pretty much the same model as Zelda 1, which introduces methods of warping after exploring the world map on foot.

 

[Ratrat]

I mean, of course you beat the game quickly - it wasn't your first playthrough. You knew where to go, you half-remembered the level layouts, etc etc. Subsequent playthroughs of any Souls game are always drastically shorter than first playthroughs.

Quelaag is close to Firelink once you find the shortcut. That's the point.

And series veterans, which I and most other people in this thread are, hardly seem to view it as just "an annoyance."

Doesn't matter if it's your first playthrough. There is a monstrous gap in skill when it comes to newcomers and people who are playing their second or third Souls game. That level of 'tension' is simply not there once you know what you're doing.

It's quite a long road if you don't take the master key, you have to go through upper Blightown( which is a hell) or find the way to Drakes Valley through Darkroot Basin.

Oh, that must have been it then. I had the master key.

People are using the base game of DS2 as an example of it being bad and ignoring DeS, DS1 Dlc, DS2 Dlc and Bloodborne.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Warping is stupid, agreed. Even DS1 gets worse after the Lord Vessel.

Well DS1 gets worse after the Lord Vessel because the areas after the Lord Vessel are worse.

There's nothing inherent about warping that makes those places bad. DS1 and 2 had warping in all their DLC areas and they were great.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Doesn't matter if it's your first playthrough. There is a monstrous gap in skill when it comes to newcomers and people who are playing their second or third Souls game. That level of 'tension' is simply not there once you know what you're doing.

Pretty much. I was expecting so much more from Bloodorne regarding tension and fear but I guess most of the people talking those points up were new to the series.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Pretty much. I was expecting so much more from Bloodorne regarding tension and fear but I guess most of the people talking those points up were new to the series.

I started with Demon's Souls when it released and I've platinumed three of the four games. I'm hardly new.

Bloodborne didn't have as many moments of tension for a variety of reasons, including the fact that we're all getting better at the games and its uniformly quick boss runs, but I think it's a bit silly to overlook one of the main reasons: the presence of fast travel. Being kidnapped to Yahar'gul was easily the tensest moment in the game precisely because it also stripped away your access to fast travel. The tenseness immediately vanished as soon as you stumbled upon the lantern.

So yes, Bloodborne was lacking in tension, but that's evidence that fast travel makes tension harder to achieve, not evidence that there was never tension in the series in the first place. The series is built around tension.

Doesn't matter if it's your first playthrough. There is a monstrous gap in skill when it comes to newcomers and people who are playing their second or third Souls game. That level of 'tension' is simply not there once you know what you're doing.

Of course there is. That doesn't mean the tension isn't there, it just means it's harder to achieve. It certainly doesn't mean there's no point in trying and that From should just give us all the amenities because what's the point of trying to maintain the illusion of risk vs reward and discipline and perseverance when we all know what we're doing. Dark Souls was my second Souls game and Blighttown was terrific, making my way into the Demon Ruins and realizing I probably wasn't supposed to be there was terrific, and staggering into Firelink after so long underground with one remaining estus (only to find that the firekeeper had been murdered) remains to me a singular experience in gaming.

Being kidnapped to Yahar'gul was the best part of Bloodborne, but it would have been even better if your only way out was through Paarl. That would have been a true Souls moment, as memorable as 5-2 or the Anor Londo archers or Ornstein and Smough. Of course, the game wasn't set up to allow that - if you're going to trap players somewhere you need to let them level up, upgrade/repair their weapons, buy supplies, etc, all of which requires teleportation in Bloodborne. That's the problem with world design that relies on teleportation.

 

[Seanspeed]

I replayed Dark Souls 1 for the first time since it's release recently and was warping within 7 hours. Quelaag is incredibly close to Firelink as well. I don't know, again, I think the tension only exists for people who are new to the series and dread every encounter. Series veterans...even if it's their first run they are not going to care so much. It's just an annoyance.

So a game loses a bit of that 'first time magic' on subsequent replays. Goes for most games, really.

Considering that only *some* people even replay games at all, I think emphasis should be put on making the first time playthrough special. That's the one that sticks with us the most and tends to shape how we feel about a game overall, even if we do replay it.

Alternatively, allowing warping from the start in NG+.

 

[Ratrat]

Of course there is. That doesn't mean the tension isn't there, it just means it's harder to achieve. It certainly doesn't mean there's no point in trying and that From should just give us all the amenities because what's the point of trying to maintain the illusion of risk vs reward and discipline and perseverance when we all know what we're doing. Dark Souls was my second Souls game and Blighttown was terrific, making my way into the Demon Ruins and realizing I probably wasn't supposed to be there was terrific, and staggering into Firelink after so long underground with one remaining estus (only to find that the firekeeper had been murdered) remains to me a singular experience in gaming.

Being kidnapped to Yahar'gul was the best part of Bloodborne, but it would have been even better if your only way out was through Paarl. That would have been a true Souls moment, as memorable as 5-2 or the Anor Londo archers or Ornstein and Smough. Of course, the game wasn't set up to allow that - if you're going to trap players somewhere you need to let them level up, upgrade/repair their weapons, buy supplies, etc, all of which requires teleportation in Bloodborne. That's the problem with world design that relies on teleportation.

Still think your overselling it. It's simply not that hard to backtrack, probably easier then going forward in most cases and that's what people often do. I tend to think it's too much of a tedious hassle to turn back, not 'it's scary'!

So a game loses a bit of that 'first time magic' on subsequent replays. Goes for most games, really.

Considering that only *some* people even replay games at all, I think emphasis should be put on making the first time playthrough special. That's the one that sticks with us the most and tends to shape how we feel about a game overall, even if we do replay it.

Alternatively, allowing warping from the start in NG+.

My argument was more, once you know the mechanics. Souls vets thinking Bloodborne is easy etc.

 

[Seanspeed]

Still think your overselling it. It's simply not that hard to backtrack, probably easier then going forward in most cases and that's what people often do.

If you're in the Depths on your first playthrough, yea, backtracking isn't a huge deal. But I think once you get into Blighttown your very first time, you've basically gotten to the point of no return, where the thought of turning around and heading back and doing it ALL over again(it feels like a long, difficult journey your first time, don't forget) is almost too much to even consider. I think I'd done it once and it was a really tough decision. And that's kind of what made it special. I couldn't just magically leave and come back with the press of a couple buttons, I had to really sit there and wonder if it was worth making the trek back or not. And if you *do* go back, you know very well that it comes at the price of having to fight your way back again. Which is cool! It sounds daunting at the time, but it's also one of the ways that we gain an appreciation for the level/world design, feeling the connections between areas more organically and also improving our skills along the way. It's the sort of backtracking that actually adds to the game.

 

[AzureFlame]

Well DS1 gets worse after the Lord Vessel because the areas after the Lord Vessel are worse.

There's nothing inherent about warping that makes those places bad. DS1 and 2 had warping in all their DLC areas and they were great.

I disagree, the areas after the lord vessel are awesome, even the empty Lost Izaleth.

Warping kills exploration, but i think it was well done in DS1, horrible in DS2 and ok in BB.

 

[NEO0MJ]

I started with Demon's Souls when it released and I've platinumed three of the four games. I'm hardly new.

Bloodborne didn't have as many moments of tension for a variety of reasons, including the fact that we're all getting better at the games and its uniformly quick boss runs, but I think it's a bit silly to overlook one of the main reasons: the presence of fast travel. Being kidnapped to Yahar'gul was easily the tensest moment in the game precisely because it also stripped away your access to fast travel. The tenseness immediately vanished as soon as you stumbled upon the lantern.

I think you're overestimating the impact of fast travel on tension. My main problem with Dark back in the day was usually just getting from one bonfire to the next, not backtracking.

And I never got kidnapped by those guys as I never gave them a chance to kill me.

Still think your overselling it. It's simply not that hard to backtrack, probably easier then going forward in most cases and that's what people often do. I tend to think it's too much of a tedious hassle to turn back, not 'it's scary'!

Similar to how it's not hard to reach bosses. Making the bonfire/lantern further than the boss just makes it a hassle, not a challenge.

 

[Cyborg]

I see this is still about the E3 demo impressions.....

Spoiler

NOT

 

[Pachimari]

I wonder if it will have the lighting we saw from the Dark Souls II E3 demo?

 

[Sid]

I wonder if it will have the lighting we saw from the Dark Souls II E3 demo?

Going by the impressions and screenshots the graphics are great,I think we'll get a game better looking than that.

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

The only thing I felt going through Blighttown was the horrible framerate.

On PC it was very nice to have places like this at 60FPS. It was tough anyway.

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

I disagree, the areas after the lord vessel are awesome, even the empty Lost Izaleth.

Warping kills exploration, but i think it was well done in DS1, horrible in DS2 and ok in BB.

I disagree as well. All of the stuff and the DLC are awesome on Dark Souls near the end. Sure, you are motivated less but with the additional DLC right there I'm doing that before the end boss. It was pretty great getting back into this after a break. Love the texture pack they have on it too.

 

[rrc1594]

I don't mind wrapping it encourage me to go back to places. You think I would of step one foot in Shrine of Amana after i was done, If I couldn't warp. Hell motherfucking no!

 

[Red Liquorice]

I see this is still about the E3 demo impressions.....

Spoiler

NOT

lol. It's the rule that all Souls threads must devolve into the same comparisons and meta-discussions.

 

[Ratrat]

lol. It's the rule that all Souls threads must devolve into the same comparisons and meta-discussions.

Maybe if they showed some effin gameplay outside of a closed theater.

 

[Servbot24]

I wonder if it will have the lighting we saw from the Dark Souls II E3 demo?

We'll have all new environments so I'm not really sure what this even means

 

[Fried Food]

Warping with the chalice/goblet thing ruined DS1 for me. I think that's where I stopped playing actually. It became less of an experience and more of a game and I just stopped caring. This is part of why I see DSII as being kind of soulless. It's much more obviously a game compare to the first part of DS1. Demon's Souls is my favorite souls game FYI.

 

[Look! The Pie!]

Warping with the chalice/goblet thing ruined DS1 for me. I think that's where I stopped playing actually. It became less of an experience and more of a game and I just stopped caring. This is part of why I see DSII as being kind of soulless. It's much more obviously a game compare to the first part of DS1. Demon's Souls is my favorite souls game FYI.

Fair enough, but having to warp to levels from a central hub wasn't game-like to you?

 

[Fried Food]

Fair enough, but having to warp to levels from a central hub wasn't game-like to you?

In Demon's it was integrated into the lore and game better. It didn't feel just dropped in. Plus the experience of playing the game was so fresh.

 

[Tarkus]

The only thing I felt going through Blighttown was the horrible framerate.

Are you the Souls troll?

On topic: I like the new enemy knight design. It's no Black Knight, which is my favorite character design of all time, but it's good. I can see myself using its greatsword a lot. It sort of looks like the BKGS from DS2. I like the skull helm too.

 

[GorillaJu]

Meh I think warping is implemented well in all of the games, including Bloodborne. Perhaps DS2 is the weakest because of how simple and frequent it was but, still okay.

 

[jimboton]

This has probably been posted elsewhere but here's some info from the new Famitsu interview:
>
-If the story of Dark Souls 1 was killing the gods, DS3 is about killing the kings.
-Story takes place after DS2 but you don't need to have played the previous games to understand it.
-Features returning from DS2 include the number of weapons and rings you can equip in addition to bonfire warping and jump button remapping.
-They're already out of Alpha
-Tanimura brought in recently for polish
>

No wonder they are saying Early 2016. Sounds like the game is really far along. I wouldn't be surprised if Tanimura recently finished the prototyping stage of the next game.(DS4...?) I think what's making everything feel fast is that DS2 was probably originally planned to come out about 6 months earlier than it did. Probably the same for Bloodborne too. I bet they learned a lot working on those two games and DS3 production has been super smooth.

I think what makes everything feel 'fast' is that even though Dark Souls 2 will actually be 2 years old by the time 3 hits these games aren't the throaway fodder we kind of expect from most AAA releases, something to furiously play for 1 week or month (if that) and then forget completely about. Most of us keep would keep playing the latest Souls game for well over 6 or 12 months after release and the effect of that is that there's not much 'downtime' between installments. Which is excellent and I hope From can keep it up.

Sad about unrestricted bonfire warping

 

[gunslikewhoa]

In Bloodborne you can also warp from the get go, and the level design is pretty damn intricate and good.

The level design is essentially a bunch of giant loops where your main goal in every single level becomes to find the lantern ASAP. I'm oversimplifying, obviously, but BB level design is pretty poor in comparison to Dark Souls.

 

[Ayt]

I remember many times walking back to Firelink Shrine. The music would start up and you'd feel back at home in a way no other place in the game could mirror. When you are later able to warp back to Firelink, the magic just isn't there anymore.

I'm sure Majula would have felt like a much different place if you had to enter it on foot rather than constantly warping into the area.

 

[tracyllrkn]

What does "no enemy despawning" mean? Enemies come back?

 

[BeeDog]

What is "no enemy despawning" mean? Enemies come back?

In Dark Souls 2, you could kill an enemy up to 10 times (or was it 15?) and then it was permanently removed until NG+ or until you increased the bonfire strength of a specific area.

In other words, this means enemies will keep respawning every time you respawn or rest at a bonfire.

 

[UrbanRats]

In Dark Souls 2, you could kill an enemy up to 10 times (or was it 15?) and then it was permanently removed until NG+ or until you increased the bonfire strength of a specific area.

In other words, this means enemies will keep respawning every time you respawn or rest at a bonfire.

It varied from enemy to enemy, as far as i know.

 

[MrRudiMentary]

So Darkborne confirmed. Good.

 

[Comfort Jones]

Warping is stupid, agreed. Even DS1 gets worse after the Lord Vessel.

This is such a false equivalency though. The game does not suddenly get worse because you can warp, it got worse because they had to cut a lot of content and what content that was there was kind of a mixed bag. A lack of warping would not make Izalith any less bad. In fact it would probably make it worse!

Arguing against warping in Souls is basically advocating that the game waste my time for the sake of immersion. There's so many things I dislike doing on a replay of Souls 1 because a big portion of it is just me running to a place with very little thought or care put into it. It's also pretty bad for new players because while the game is made in a way where you can tackle different areas when you want to, when the game forces you to run aaaaalllllll the way back to a spot to get to a location they might have not explored it really does the opposite of encouraging them to even bother, making it very easy for them to feel stuck.

 

[DustyVonEric]

I started with Demon's Souls when it released and I've platinumed three of the four games. I'm hardly new.

Bloodborne didn't have as many moments of tension for a variety of reasons, including the fact that we're all getting better at the games and its uniformly quick boss runs, but I think it's a bit silly to overlook one of the main reasons: the presence of fast travel. Being kidnapped to Yahar'gul was easily the tensest moment in the game precisely because it also stripped away your access to fast travel. The tenseness immediately vanished as soon as you stumbled upon the lantern.

So yes, Bloodborne was lacking in tension, but that's evidence that fast travel makes tension harder to achieve, not evidence that there was never tension in the series in the first place. The series is built around tension.

Regarding the tension in BB, you must have nerves of steel.

I have hundreds of hours in all four. From start to finish, BB is the most tense of all for me. At the start, you're in a new setting, with unexplored areas and unfamiliar threats, and no shield. Coming from Sword & Board melee and Mage ranged builds, the no shield safety net, plus low gun damage, git gud at parrying, was all tense. Then later, the story unfolds, you gain Insight, and start to see real, unnerving shit. And the creepy, sacrificial subject matter. BB had me feeling like Tower of Latria the whole darn game. That's tense.

 

[JudgmentJay]

The level design is essentially a bunch of giant loops where your main goal in every single level becomes to find the lantern ASAP. I'm oversimplifying, obviously, but BB level design is pretty poor in comparison to Dark Souls.

Dark Souls 1 is my favorite game in the series, but I think Bloodborne's level design is superior. Your oversimplification can be applied to Dark Souls 1 just as easily as Bloodborne. Dark Souls 1 is just a series of levels where the goal is to find the bonfire ASAP. The only difference is that Dark Souls 1 loops back to Firelink Shrine several times with the Undead Parish and Blighttown shortcuts, but I mean... two cool shortcuts like that doesn't make something else "poor" in comparison. Bloodborne has the Forbidden Forest -> Central Yharnam shortcut as well, which is the same thing. Also, Bloodborne's level design is extremely strong all the way through, something that can't be said for Dark Souls 1.

At best I could see the argument that Dark Souls 1 has a better "world" design (how the individual levels fit together on a grand scale), but Bloodborne's individual areas are superior for the most part in my opinion.

 

[Seanspeed]

This is such a false equivalency though. The game does not suddenly get worse because you can warp, it got worse because they had to cut a lot of content and what content that was there was kind of a mixed bag. A lack of warping would not make Izalith any less bad. In fact it would probably make it worse!

Arguing against warping in Souls is basically advocating that the game waste my time for the sake of immersion. There's so many things I dislike doing on a replay of Souls 1 because a big portion of it is just me running to a place with very little thought or care put into it. It's also pretty bad for new players because while the game is made in a way where you can tackle different areas when you want to, when the game forces you to run aaaaalllllll the way back to a spot to get to a location they might have not explored it really does the opposite of encouraging them to even bother, making it very easy for them to feel stuck.

Warping in DKS1 becomes fairly necessary because these later areas are a lot more 'branched out' than the 1st half of the game. So yea, it would have been tedious without any warping at all the whole game. But it also takes some of the magic away and I do believe it is *part* of why the latter half isn't quite as special.

 

[TacosNSalsa]

I would be exceedingly happy to have an option To turn it off at the start of the game like a hardcore mode ala New Vegas. Those that want to warp every where let em...Those like me that don't mind the walking everywhere are no longer prompted as sure will be quite happy as well...win win!!

 

[kojirosasaki]

I trust the third part because directs miyazaki god.

 

[Maxrunner]

Im considering buying Dark souls 2 for ps4, but im affraid that once this one gets out they will eventually launch a collection or something....

 

[NEO0MJ]

Im considering buying Dark souls 2 for ps4, but im affraid that once this one gets out they will eventually launch a collection or something....

I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[ZangBa]

Are you the Souls troll?

On topic: I like the new enemy knight design. It's no Black Knight, which is my favorite character design of all time, but it's good. I can see myself using its greatsword a lot. It sort of looks like the BKGS from DS2. I like the skull helm too.

I guess I am because I have the "wrong" opinions about the series, isn't that right? Ridiculous.

 

[Cyborg]

The level design is essentially a bunch of giant loops where your main goal in every single level becomes to find the lantern ASAP. I'm oversimplifying, obviously, but BB level design is pretty poor in comparison to Dark Souls.

What? Go home man.

 

[eot]

Dark Souls 1 is my favorite game in the series, but I think Bloodborne's level design is superior. Your oversimplification can be applied to Dark Souls 1 just as easily as Bloodborne. Dark Souls 1 is just a series of levels where the goal is to find the bonfire ASAP. The only difference is that Dark Souls 1 loops back to Firelink Shrine several times with the Undead Parish and Blighttown shortcuts, but I mean... two cool shortcuts like that doesn't make something else "poor" in comparison. Bloodborne has the Forbidden Forest -> Central Yharnam shortcut as well, which is the same thing. Also, Bloodborne's level design is extremely strong all the way through, something that can't be said for Dark Souls 1.

The thing about that shortcut in Bloodborne though is that it's utterly pointless from a navigation standpoint, and they built an entire sub area just to facilitate it (the cave), it doesn't feel organic at all. You could argue Valley of Drakes is the same thing, but that place has four exits/entrances and you can see it from several places on the map. What makes Dark Souls map so great is not only how well it fits together, but how dense it is. Bloodborne is much more sprawling in comparison.

 

[JudgmentJay]

The thing about that shortcut in Bloodborne though is that it's utterly pointless from a navigation standpoint, and they built an entire sub area just to facilitate it (the cave), it doesn't feel organic at all. You could argue Valley of Drakes is the same thing, but that place has four exits/entrances and you can see it from several places on the map. What makes Dark Souls map so great is not only how well it fits together, but how dense it is. Bloodborne is much more sprawling in comparison.

On a macro level yes, but on average, I can't agree that the individual areas in Dark Souls 1 are more dense than the individual areas in Bloodborne.

I think the Bloodborne vs Dark Souls "level design" preference basically boils down to... do you prefer a world that's very vertical as well as horizontal where the individual areas connect together in very cool ways, or do you prefer the a more horizontal, spread-out world where the individual areas are more complex? Both are great in their own ways, and Dark Souls' is probably more memorable/special, but from a gameplay point of view, I prefer Bloodborne's method.