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Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition |OT| Durante Does In 23 Minutes What From Can't

Booshka

Member
Awesome, thanks for the tips guys! I'm not going to read your spoilered text at the moment but may have to give in later if I can't take him out on my own. Truly awesome how Dark Souls just throws you in the deep end right from the beginning. You want to take out these undead/demon lords? Have at it, no one is stopping you.

Talk to Blacksmiths and use them. Upgrading gear is very important, other than that, have fun and die a bunch.
 

Ultryx

Member
Well, I'm fucking done with this game.

Playing the beginning of NG+ last night, got invaded, it's obviously a hacker and fucking steals my "humanity." I've been hacked before like that and I just alt-F4 out. I log on today and all my stats are reset back to beginning stats.

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF SHIT IS THIS? Oh and guess what? Apparently it's a fucking common occurrence. Just one more reason for me to fucking hate shit MS with GFWL. Fuck that shit. I put 80 hours into this game and then it's just wiped. I wish I would have known my dumb ass was supposed to "back up" save games through DSFix.

I'm fucking pissed as fuck. I loved this game. GFWL, Steam, devs, no one is going to do a god damn thing about it either. People all over are posting these peoples' gamertags. They don't give a fuck.

Welp, here it is.

ThatchyShelf38 is the gamertag.
 
Well, I'm fucking done with this game.

Playing the beginning of NG+ last night, got invaded, it's obviously a hacker and fucking steals my "humanity." I've been hacked before like that and I just alt-F4 out. I log on today and all my stats are reset back to beginning stats.

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF SHIT IS THIS? Oh and guess what? Apparently it's a fucking common occurrence. Just one more reason for me to fucking hate shit MS with GFWL. Fuck that shit. I put 80 hours into this game and then it's just wiped. I wish I would have known my dumb ass was supposed to "back up" save games through DSFix.

I'm fucking pissed as fuck. I loved this game. GFWL, Steam, devs, no one is going to do a god damn thing about it either. People all over are posting these peoples' gamertags. They don't give a fuck.

Welp, here it is.

ThatchyShelf38 is the gamertag.

That really sucks. =( The fact that they don't do anything about it makes it worse.
 

Ultryx

Member
That really sucks. =( The fact that they don't do anything about it makes it worse.

Yeah. My friend I played co-op with for a lot of the game tried sending me his save file so I would at least have a comparable character. I guess that should work but I moved it into the save file area and loaded the game up. It said the game save was corrupted. Is there something else I woul have to do? Oh maybe the file name got saved as something different because there were two or something.

Idk but this is bullshit. If you guys play online - look out. I would never in a million years do that to a person.
 

Booshka

Member
Yeah. My friend I played co-op with for a lot of the game tried sending me his save file so I would at least have a comparable character. I guess that should work but I moved it into the save file area and loaded the game up. It said the game save was corrupted. Is there something else I woul have to do? Oh maybe the file name got saved as something different because there were two or something.

Idk but this is bullshit. If you guys play online - look out. I would never in a million years do that to a person.

This happened to me as well, really unfortunate that a nearly dead platform for Dark Souls has peoples doing the worst shit possible to ruin your game.

If you want to you can use the same shit that those dickwads use to cheat, to remake your build quickly. Cheat Engine I think it is called, there is plenty of nefarious bullshit in there, but if you are legit player that just wants to make a build quickly or adjust some game state settings, it's perfectly acceptable to use.

Just stay strong and don't be tempted to cheat back at the dicks that are ruining people's games, just remake your build, give yourself items you don't want to farm for and play on.
 

Ultryx

Member
This happened to me as well, really unfortunate that a nearly dead platform for Dark Souls has peoples doing the worst shit possible to ruin your game.

If you want to you can use the same shit that those dickwads use to cheat, to remake your build quickly. Cheat Engine I think it is called, there is plenty of nefarious bullshit in there, but if you are legit player that just wants to make a build quickly or adjust some game state settings, it's perfectly acceptable to use.

Just stay strong and don't be tempted to cheat back at the dicks that are ruining people's games, just remake your build, give yourself items you don't want to farm for and play on.

I'm mad as hell, but I would never stoop that low. I do not hack. I'm afraid of using those "trainers" or the Cheat Engine and getting caught.

Now wouldn't that be some shit? I use it to gain my levels back and then I get banned?
 

Sullichin

Member
I'm mad as hell, but I would never stoop that low. I do not hack. I'm afraid of using those "trainers" or the Cheat Engine and getting caught.

Now wouldn't that be some shit? I use it to gain my levels back and then I get banned?

I understand not wanting to cheat, but you wouldn't get in trouble. You'd probably be the first if you did.
 

Ultryx

Member
I understand not wanting to cheat, but you wouldn't get in trouble. You'd probably be the first if you did.

Just verified that the stupid saves are encrypted or what ever and linked to your GFWL account.

Man I LITERALLY got fucked in the worst way possible. I really, REALLY enjoyed this game. I gladly would have played through NG++ too probably. I just don't know if I want to put the time in now. It's really depressing.

Perhaps I'll give one of these programs a try. We'll see.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Well, I'm fucking done with this game.

Playing the beginning of NG+ last night, got invaded, it's obviously a hacker and fucking steals my "humanity." I've been hacked before like that and I just alt-F4 out. I log on today and all my stats are reset back to beginning stats.

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF SHIT IS THIS? Oh and guess what? Apparently it's a fucking common occurrence. Just one more reason for me to fucking hate shit MS with GFWL. Fuck that shit. I put 80 hours into this game and then it's just wiped. I wish I would have known my dumb ass was supposed to "back up" save games through DSFix.

I'm fucking pissed as fuck. I loved this game. GFWL, Steam, devs, no one is going to do a god damn thing about it either. People all over are posting these peoples' gamertags. They don't give a fuck.

Welp, here it is.

ThatchyShelf38 is the gamertag.

shit that sucks bro, at least you got to finish it once, I guess :/
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Yeah man I was really looking forward to playing through at least NG+.

Oh well. I'll just wait for Dark Souls II :(

yeah, I specially like NG+ in souls games because there's nothing quite like it

like, in roguelikes every playthrough is different, so many playthroughs end up being the same since in the end it's either a good random seed or a bad random seed for you.

replaying a souls game feels totally different from playing it the first time because of all the knowledge you now have.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I expected this game not to run great, but I at least expected it to run. 3 hours I've wasted trying to even get to the freaking start screen to no avail. It's been years since I've had such troubles with a PC game. I've tried fucking everything apart from a freaking reformat which just isn't an option. Its a useless "dark souls executable has stopped working" error too.

I've tried:
- Verifying cache and redownloading/installing dark souls dozens of times (verify always fails for some reason)
- reinstalling gfwl/gfwl redistributable/windows ID long-in thing dozens of times (with restarts)
- uninstalling and reinstalling all the direct x redistributables
- Turning off steam community and steam cloud services
- any combination of compatibility modes and administration levels on the executables
- updating video drivers
- forcing off AA and other features in the ati control thing
- installing/uninstalling DSfix
- removing my controllers
- messing with xlive.dll and vsfilter.dll
- letting it stay frozen for 10 minutes
- Downloading it to C: drive instead of D: drive
- Checking the registry as the steam support page says

Nothing is working. Nothing at all. I guess I'll just have to end my time with dark souls here on one of the sourest notes possible.
 
I expected this game not to run great, but I at least expected it to run. 3 hours I've wasted trying to even get to the freaking start screen to no avail. It's been years since I've had such troubles with a PC game. I've tried fucking everything apart from a freaking reformat which just isn't an option. Its a useless "dark souls executable has stopped working" error too.

I've tried:
- Verifying cache and redownloading/installing dark souls dozens of times (verify always fails for some reason)
- reinstalling gfwl/gfwl redistributable/windows ID long-in thing dozens of times (with restarts)
- uninstalling and reinstalling all the direct x redistributables
- Turning off steam community and steam cloud services
- any combination of compatibility modes and administration levels on the executables
- updating video drivers
- forcing off AA and other features in the ati control thing
- installing/uninstalling DSfix
- removing my controllers
- messing with xlive.dll and vsfilter.dll
- letting it stay frozen for 10 minutes
- Downloading it to C: drive instead of D: drive
- Checking the registry as the steam support page says

Nothing is working. Nothing at all. I guess I'll just have to end my time with dark souls here on one of the sourest notes possible.

Well shoot, that sucks. Are you using Windows 8 by any chance? I seem to remember people having similar problems on Windows 8. Not sure what the solution was.
 
I expected this game not to run great, but I at least expected it to run. 3 hours I've wasted trying to even get to the freaking start screen to no avail. It's been years since I've had such troubles with a PC game. I've tried fucking everything apart from a freaking reformat which just isn't an option. Its a useless "dark souls executable has stopped working" error too.

I've tried:
- Verifying cache and redownloading/installing dark souls dozens of times (verify always fails for some reason)
- reinstalling gfwl/gfwl redistributable/windows ID long-in thing dozens of times (with restarts)
- uninstalling and reinstalling all the direct x redistributables
- Turning off steam community and steam cloud services
- any combination of compatibility modes and administration levels on the executables
- updating video drivers
- forcing off AA and other features in the ati control thing
- installing/uninstalling DSfix
- removing my controllers
- messing with xlive.dll and vsfilter.dll
- letting it stay frozen for 10 minutes
- Downloading it to C: drive instead of D: drive
- Checking the registry as the steam support page says

Nothing is working. Nothing at all. I guess I'll just have to end my time with dark souls here on one of the sourest notes possible.

You're not running MSI Afterburner are you? I was running into the exact same issue until I disabled Afterburner. After I did that everything worked fine.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Well shoot, that sucks. Are you using Windows 8 by any chance? I seem to remember people having similar problems on Windows 8. Not sure what the solution was.

Nope, windows 7. Turns out there was an steam update last night that broke it according to the steam forums. Very likely that was my problem. Turns out all my google searching for solutions isn't very helpful when my problem is only hours old.

After looking to see if I was still in the beta it asked me to restart steam to apply changes so I did, steam updated, and now it works fine.

You're not running MSI Afterburner are you? I was running into the exact same issue until I disabled Afterburner. After I did that everything worked fine.

I run RadeonPro, but it hasn't given me problems other than really really overdoing ambient occlusion to the point i had to turn it off for this game.
 

Zertez

Member
Gonna start a Magic build for the first time...Anyone got any pointers?
Put some early points into Attunement to open more spell slots. Then start working your int up, there isnt much point going past 50 points in int and a lot of people stop at lvl 44. At lvl 44 you get the last Soul Spear spell and at 50 int you will have access to White Dragon Breath. White Dragon Breath isnt a necessity, but I like it in some areas. White Dragon Breath is pretty much the same spell Seath uses minus the curse.

If you feel underpowered, because you havent made it to the high lvl spell vendor yet, Pyromancy is an easy way to get over the hump or firebombs are always helpful early on. All you need is souls to get strong in Pyromancy as you probably already know. I found putting a few points into Dex is also useful to kill trash enemies you dont want to waste a spell on, or pulling them to you with a bow and finishing them off with a parry or backstab. Dexterity also speeds up casting a little faster as well. Be sure to get the magic weapon spells as soon as you can and use them often. So many new magic users neglect them, but they are very useful for making fights easier. They are pretty much free resins.

Using only spells can get boring, so the added dex helps when you want to melee for a few fights to break things up. Playing a spell caster is very easy once you get some more slots, a decent selection of spells and items that boost spell power. I dont think int casters in Dark Souls are as overpowered as spell casting in Demons Souls, but still int casters are very strong. Firing Spear and Soul Arrow spells can make short work of a lot of mobs, so you may find yourself a little bored just using those. When that happens I will enchant my weapon with a spell, maybe use a Homing Soulmass spell and then melee for a little while. One great thing about int casters is the access to Cast Light spell, Tomb of the Giants is less frightening when you can see more than 5 ft in front of you.

The itemization of catalysts and Sorcerer gear in general is one of the most disappointing things about int casters. Your starter catalyst is on par with almost every catalyst in the game except 2 I think. It doesnt look that great, but it still is pretty strong. Get use it and not upgrading except for cosmetic reasons for a long time. Casters can be a fun change of pace, but after you play a melee class and you are use to the excitement of fighting things up close, int casters are a little disappointing after a few hours. I found myself having to handicap my character to keep some excitement and challenge in the game.

I enjoy using pyromancer spells because there is a tad more strategy and a bigger difference between the line of spells compared to int spells. Pyro spells are pretty overpowered as well once you upgrade the glove a lot. I usually love playing the Wizard class in most games, but for me I got bored playing int casters in both Demons Souls and Dark Souls because almost everything was too easy in single player. PvP can be a lot of fun though, if you run across a good pvp player that doesnt cheat the system. Faith casters can be fun as well, but they have a couple of overpowered spells that come close to breaking the game. If you have played through the games with several other builds, you may want to try a hybrid caster class out instead of a straight int or faith caster, the game is way to easy for experienced players using full int or faith builds in my experience.
 
Thanks for the in depth info, I've played through the game twice with the same character (Dex/Strength build) and I always wanted to do magic but felt like that would just make my guy mediocre as opposed to be being pretty well built in one area, although having a Dex/magic guy sounds fun, would need a bit more strategy as oppose to brute forcing myself through areas.
 
When the PC version came out I remember reading that the Key to the Seal in New Londo Ruins wouldn't drop if you killed Ingward. Has that been fixed yet?
 
Single Damage type weapons generally do more damage than Multiple damage type weapons, Even if they have more damage in the stats sheet.

The reason is that multiple damage type weapons have to go through multiple enemy defenses, whereas single damage type only has to go through a single defense stat.
 

Deadstar

Member
Anyone experienced any cheaters on line? Would love to get Dark Souls 2 for pc but don't want people ruining the experience online.
 

2AdEPT

Member
Gonna start a Magic build for the first time...Anyone got any pointers?

The master key is a good choice. it allows you to get both the oolacile and tin banishment catalysts within minutes of the start of the game. The tin b one doubles as a pole weapon that is one of the strongest early game weapons and has good reach. The oolacile one is best base damage catalyst for early game....the regular one scales better for mid-game iirc until the real good ones come after placing the lordvessel. the location of the tin b is easy to get to if you know where it is...and one of the best early game cloaks is at the same location...it also has insane curse protect, which will only benefit you if you go there against the wishes of the "must do the game in order crew." There is no prearranged order....except if you are a sorcerer it makes complete sense to get this stuff as early as possible. sounds like you are doing a second character so go ahead and get this stuff early...what kind of magic user has to learn to use a sword and wear armour etc....?

the tin b and robe are in
blighttown
the oolaclie catalist can be bought from a vendor in
dark basin but will have to kill hydra - use the tin b for that by stabbing with that reach!

When the PC version came out I remember reading that the Key to the Seal in New Londo Ruins wouldn't drop if you killed Ingward. Has that been fixed yet?

I was one of the first who got burned by this on gaf...most people were fine....so might have not been fixed...use game save manager or dsfix to save before killing ingward on pc unless there was a fix published.
 
I was one of the first who got burned by this on gaf...most people were fine....so might have not been fixed...use game save manager or dsfix to save before killing ingward on pc unless there was a fix published.

I was able to kill him with arrows and still get the key.
 
Hello, I recently reinstalled my Windows 7 after upgrading my rig and I also reinstalled Dark Souls. Upon login to GFWL, it asks me to enter the product key again. After entering the product key it tells me that the product key is already used by another account but the account I used is the account with that product key. Any one else encounter this problem?
 

Booshka

Member
Contemplating about buying this game on Steam summer sale. Do I still have to use the Durante fix?

You don't have to, if you have a decent PC it will run better than the console versions, but Durante makes it much better and you get options you'd expect from a PC Version.

Definitely worth the 7.50 either way, just get it and ask the many threads for tips.
 

Mogwai

Member
I don't know if I've seen it at 75% off before. Get it, get it, get it!

I'm really tempted to grab the PC version right now. That means I'll have to invest in a wired controller though. But I guess it's worth it.

How's the online on PC? What about those hackers?
 

Soulhouf

Member
I see, thanks. Are rats the best creatures to farm humanity from? I have a couple of Humanities, I just hope I don't run out before I'm able to beat the gargs

Better option than farming these rats: lay down your summon sign. Somebody will summon you and if you manage to beat the boss together you'll get a lot of souls and a humanity.
Through the process you get a free practice as well.
 
Any advice on beating the Gargs? One is fine, two is RIP
Upgrade your weapon to +5 at the Blacksmith.
Two hand your weapon for more damage
Use a high fire defense shield (Heater, Grass Crest, Dragon Crest)
Lock on -off- sometimes so you can quickly run around the back of them (useful tip any way is not to use lock on all the time)
Pine resin on your weapon (if you have any left from the chest in Undead Burg)
Summon helpers - either human or the 2 NPC helpers available for this boss fight (Solaire, Lautrec)
 
I'm really tempted to grab the PC version right now. That means I'll have to invest in a wired controller though. But I guess it's worth it.

How's the online on PC? What about those hackers?

Buggy. DSCFix helps to connect with friends, though. 250 hours and I haven't run into a hacker, but others haven't been so lucky. (I don't play online too much, so that might be why.)
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I snagged it up during the flash sale. Couldn't resist comparing the Durante graphics, and I have some friends who have it on PC anyway... xD

Decided to make a Black Knight weapon build, since I never used them before. I got a sword drop from the first one in the Burg, which is ridiculously powerful early in the game (though you do need to spend a few points in both dex and str before using it). And it's nice to use in the Parish against those twinked cunts who think they'll face a +0 using sucker. Got invaded by a Darkwraith cosplayer (full set + darksword and dark hand) and almost killed him before he ran away into the level to heal, but I later killed him in two backstabs. Though he wasn't as bad as most twinks, seeing as he patiently let me kill the boar and other enemies and he could have easily rushed me, and I survived his darksword's riposte somehow -- maybe it wasn't maxed out? Anyway, without the black knight sword I'd have had zero chance.

Lots of new blood pouring in...I think it's time to load up my SL1 Darkwraith and twink the Burg and Bell Tower.
Yeah, and potentially turn them off a great game because you're a dick. Great plan.
 

Type2

Member
Hi guys, I've just started my first playthrough of this game without any demon souls experience. Im currently up to the gargoyles with a +5 weapon but some awkwardness with my gear. Is there any resource you recommend for understanding the mechanics better? I dont want to look for boss fight strategies or walkthroughs but I wouldnt mind some help with things like backstabs, item weight effects on animation speed and possibly some better explanations on stats and magic. At this point in the game is it possible for me to have any pyromancy or miracles? Im going for a dex+faith build, is that viable for a character?



Thanks for all the help, I have found some decent things on youtube so far idk if there are any video recommendations.
 
..I wouldnt mind some help with things like backstabs,

Remember that you can't have your shield up while backstabbing. There's a "sweet spot" that you have to find, where you'll sort of vacuum the enemy up into the backstab animation. Generally you can pull it off by strafing around them in the opposite direction they are moving in.

item weight effects on animation speed

There's three main animation speeds, at < 25% equip load, < 50% equip load, and <100%. (There's also some subtle differences below 25%, but nothing you need to worry too much about.) At the very least, don't go above 50%. Most people like to be under 25% for the fast roll speeds, as the invincibility frames while rolling are really helpful. However, if you feel you need more defense, you can go up to 50%. There's also some items in the game that increase your equip load. Leveling your endurance also increases your equip load.

and possibly some better explanations on stats and magic.

Can't really help you with magic, since I've never chosen a magic based character. But in terms of the other stats, try and choose an emphasis you want to go with. Dexterity weapon, strength weapon, magic based, quality (mix of dex and str), or some mixture of those. And then focus on those stats, and pump some into vitality and endurance as needed.

At this point in the game is it possible for me to have any pyromancy or miracles? Im going for a dex+faith build, is that viable for a character?

Unless you started as a pyromancer, you don't have access to pyromancy quite yet. Dex+Faith is viable. And yes, you should have access to miracles at this point.
 

Rich!

Member
Was just invaded by some dude who took up the ENTIRE screen and killed me in one hit.

What.

Fucking hackers. PC version, obviously.
 

Scrabble

Member
So I'm at a point where I'm not having fun anymore. It took me about five hours to ring the bell, and in that five hours i was having some of the most fun I've had in a game in a long time. Very challenging, but also fair. Now I'm heading down in the catacombs and after an hour and a half of just repeatedly dying over and over again and losing everything I'm about ready to call it quits. Is there some off switch to stop this endless wave of respawning skeletons? And the game does a horrible job of explaining how to play and what does what, so now I'm worried that I've completely fucked up my build or something, and i'm not about to restart 6 hours of progress just to try again.
 
So I'm at a point where I'm not having fun anymore. It took me about five hours to ring the bell, and in that five hours i was having some of the most fun I've had in a game in a long time. Very challenging, but also fair. Now I'm heading down in the catacombs and after an hour and a half of just repeatedly dying over and over again and losing everything I'm about ready to call it quits. Is there some off switch to stop this endless wave of respawning skeletons? And the game does a horrible job of explaining how to play and what does what, so now I'm worried that I've completely fucked up my build or something, and i'm not about to restart 6 hours of progress just to try again.

I would not recommend going to the Catacombs at this point in the game. It's generally better to come back quite a bit later.
 

TUSR

Banned
So I'm at a point where I'm not having fun anymore. It took me about five hours to ring the bell, and in that five hours i was having some of the most fun I've had in a game in a long time. Very challenging, but also fair. Now I'm heading down in the catacombs and after an hour and a half of just repeatedly dying over and over again and losing everything I'm about ready to call it quits. Is there some off switch to stop this endless wave of respawning skeletons? And the game does a horrible job of explaining how to play and what does what, so now I'm worried that I've completely fucked up my build or something, and i'm not about to restart 6 hours of progress just to try again.

Catacombs is one of the last places I hit
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
So I'm at a point where I'm not having fun anymore. It took me about five hours to ring the bell, and in that five hours i was having some of the most fun I've had in a game in a long time. Very challenging, but also fair. Now I'm heading down in the catacombs and after an hour and a half of just repeatedly dying over and over again and losing everything I'm about ready to call it quits. Is there some off switch to stop this endless wave of respawning skeletons? And the game does a horrible job of explaining how to play and what does what, so now I'm worried that I've completely fucked up my build or something, and i'm not about to restart 6 hours of progress just to try again.
What the others said, and also, make sure you exhaust every NPC dialogue. At least two NPCs give you good survival tips for the Catacombs. They are
Andre of Astora, the blacksmith, and Domhall of Zena, a merchant you encounter in the Depths
. Honestly after the first bell you should try either the lower Undead Burg (you should have gotten a key to that in the Parish, it unlocks the door near where you meet Solaire), or the forested area past Andre the blacksmith (you can avoid the headless demon and run past him if you want).

I would suggest going in the Catacombs at least after ringing the second bell. I usually go there before Anor Londo
because the rite of kindling is nice to have there, 20 flasks really helps against S&O.
 

Type2

Member
Hey, are any of you having trouble getting the game to go online? I keep getting a games for windows live error and its bumming me out. I already miss all the notes and invades =[
 
So I'm at a point where I'm not having fun anymore. It took me about five hours to ring the bell, and in that five hours i was having some of the most fun I've had in a game in a long time. Very challenging, but also fair. Now I'm heading down in the catacombs and after an hour and a half of just repeatedly dying over and over again and losing everything I'm about ready to call it quits. Is there some off switch to stop this endless wave of respawning skeletons? And the game does a horrible job of explaining how to play and what does what, so now I'm worried that I've completely fucked up my build or something, and i'm not about to restart 6 hours of progress just to try again.
Are you upgrading your weapon? This is far more important than levelling up.

The Catacombs is entirely possible to do early, but not recommended on a first playthrough. The "correct" next area is lower Undead Burg. You can also explore Darkroot Garden for some nice loot, some of which may actually come in handy for lower Undead Burg and the notorious boss of that area.

Re Catacomb skeletons
They can be killed permanently by a) killing the Necromancers in the Catacombs, each batch of skellies are controlled by one of them, the Necromancers don't respawn or b) using a Divine weapon - for which you need the Divine ember, which is available to get now after a boss fight somewhere else

You can't really mess up your build so early, don't worry about that. The one thing I will say with regards to levelling up is Souls isn't the series for even stat distribution. It is about deciding on one or two core things to upgrade and concentrate on those only - Vitality and Endurance is for all character types, then it's just down to what offensive style you want to use - Big heavy weapons (Strength), fast slashy/stabby weapons (Dexterity) or magic (Miracles = Faith. Magic = Sorcery). Pyromancy isn't tied to any stat and can be used by any character type.
 
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