Support NeoGAF

[Shogmaster]

:lol :lol :lol Really, I will blame myself on this one. It's like taking a TNT to the Hoover Dam o' shit. :lol

Hey, if people want to believe that E3 Gundam looks just like the new footage, I say let them be. But these folks don't get to say shit when someone says PGR3 realtime footage looks just like the E3 trailer since it's also using the same geometry.

 

[Amir0x]

Really, I will blame myself on this one. It's like taking a TNT to the Hoover Dam o' shit.

Hey, if people want to believe that E3 Gundam looks just like the new footage, I say let them be. But these folks don't get to say shit when someone says PGR3 realtime footage looks just like the E3 trailer since it's using the same geometry.

I told you it would happen. I am psychic

Well Shog brought it on himself! He used the phrase "forgot to polygonize" :lol

He should have taken one for the team and pretended to be all arrogant and indignant about it, because this will never end!

really though. follow the logic. i said in some sort of E3 ps3 movies can be done real time

MS gundam proved it.

Yes, but, Gundamn video doesn't prove anything about other videos. That was your implication. All it proves is that Gundam video was not far off from its target. Will Killzone be close to its target? Well, who knows. But certainly the Gundam video has nothing to do with whether it will or will not from a logical standpoint.

there is no reason to make me believe that Tekken cant be done. you also have to consider that namco are one of the best when it comes to graphics. Tekken 5 is just an example.

Oh, I believe it could probably be done somewhere close. Fighting games should have way better visuals than regular games. I don't know about the intricate, rippling, flexing, undulating muscle structure, sizzling sweat and all, but it should come very close.

In the end, does it really matter? DoA is a fucking horrible fighting series. Who cares if it looks good or not, because it SUCKS.

 

[C- Warrior]

Besides, why would a fighting game have a campy cliche badly lit hallway as a battleground?

Capcom could pull it off... :lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

wait, what does the gundam demo, that doesnt even look close to the e3 footage, have to do with anything?

who turned the namco vs tecmo vs sega 3d fighting game battle royal into a system fanboy war?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Oh, I believe it could probably be done somewhere close. Fighting games should have way better visuals than regular games. I don't know about the intricate, rippling, flexing, undulating muscle structure, sizzling sweat and all, but it should come very close.

The only time they'd really have to show that detail is during victory poses and there will only be 1 character on screen then. So I think it's possible.

 

[sly]

Fighting games should have way better visuals than regular games.

Ha! Maybe you understand why DOA4 doesn't look impressive to me. Shouldn't DOA4 look better than GoW?

I don't know about the intricate, rippling, flexing, undulating muscle structure, sizzling sweat and all, but it should come very close.

:lol That was just too much; even though MS Gundam demo looked quite similar to the E3 trailer I'll still doubt the Tekken demo till it's played on actual PS3 dev kits.

 

[Redbeard]

Make all characters look as good as this:

And some great shadowing, lighting...

However, I don't get the hate on DOA4 visuals. It looks phenomenal. It definitely is the kind of thing you have to see in motion at hi-res. I was skeptical at first because of those original pics, but it looks genuinely good. Mind you I hate Dead or Alive, and think it's an horrible fighting series... but visually, it's super impressive.

Is that really much better than this? A more realistic lighting model, a few more polys here and there, and that's pretty much where you'd be.

 

[llTll]

Yes, but, Gundamn video doesn't prove anything about other videos. That was your implication. All it proves is that Gundam video was not far off from its target. Will Killzone be close to its target? Well, who knows. But certainly the Gundam video has nothing to do with whether it will or will not from a logical standpoint.
.

i am talking in general. if Gundam now look close to what was showen in E3, then there is no reason to not believe others cant be. its just a + for Sony. people were doubting. now they are not.

i totally believe that Tekken or Killzone [READ SHOG] can be done or sort of on the hardwere. its not that hard. its next gen console

Oh, I believe it could probably be done somewhere close. Fighting games should have way better visuals than regular games. I don't know about the intricate, rippling, flexing, undulating muscle structure, sizzling sweat and all, but it should come very close..

that was my whole point. i was replying to you how you were impressed in DOA4 video when actually if Tekken video was running real time, you will shit on this DOA4 graphics. thats all.

In the end, does it really matter? DoA is a fucking horrible fighting series. Who cares if it looks good or not, because it SUCKS.

you dont want to go on fight with people about fighting system if it sucks or not. to each has his own. i find the fighting system is fun. not the best but its fun to play [ at the end, worth 50 bucks for me to spend ]

and i will surly buy the game if i bought xbox 360. i am huge fighting fan



and shog. i dont know if you can say the same about the PGR3 trailer, didnt the developers said its only CG ???

regardless if it can be done or not though. the game is still impressive

 

[Amir0x]

Is that really much better than this? A more realistic lighting model, a few more polys here and there, and that's pretty much where you'd be.

It depends on what your idea of "much better" is, but in my opinion yes the image I posted is a significant leap over what is currently in the game. Just as a quick passing example, in the pic you posted look at the texture of the lepoard skin leg stocking or whatever it is. Compare to the textures in the pic I posted.

 

[sly]

you dont want to go on fight with people about fighting system if it sucks or not. to each has his own. i find the fighting system is fun. not the best but its fun to play [ at the end, worth 50 bucks for me to spend

Well I want to fight :lol The fighting system sucks! I'm sure C-Warrior and Amir0x(and many others) agree with me.

 

[llTll]

Ha! Maybe you understand why DOA4 doesn't look impressive to me. Shouldn't DOA4 look better than GoW?




:lol That was just too much; even though MS Gundam demo looked quite similar to the E3 trailer I'll still doubt the Tekken demo till it's played on actual PS3 dev kits.

i am not actually. maybe i wont see the sweating that was showen in the demo back at E3. but the model it self? i have no doubt it can be done easly.


for one, PS3 is powerful console. and in some sort of degree, its more poweful than xbox 360

second, if you look at the history of namco, TTT was the best looking fighting game around its age. RR is the best looking racing game on PSP

Namco are just super amazing when it comes to graphics. when they showd that E3 demo, then i am sure they know it can be done on ps3 in some sort of.


if you had to ask me before i see Gundam really runnin on ps3, i would have told you that Tekken can, Gundam cant.

but if Bandai was able to pull it off, then for sure namco can and better

 

[op_ivy]

Is that really much better than this? A more realistic lighting model, a few more polys here and there, and that's pretty much where you'd be.

if that had self-shadowing, it would look sooo much better. wouldnt that be easy to include as well?

 

[Prine]

Didnt Itagaki state he's re-doing the fight system completley, making it more simulation than arcady?

 

[Shogmaster]

i totally believe that Tekken or Killzone [READ SHOG] can be done or sort of on the hardwere. its not that hard. its next gen console

Nobody has ever doubted this (especially since "sort of" covers a lot of ground). I never had problem with such concepts.

But the fact remains that Sony execs (i.e. Harrison) kept insisting that the KZ footage as was realtime on PS3 dev kits during interviews, and that's the thing that the likes of me was protesting.

I'm sure by the end of this upcoming gen, many games will have the "overall impact" (i.e. your "sort of") of that Killzone footage for both consoles. But that's not the same as passing of said footages as realtime to trick your audience. I just wanted to call BS on Sony's tactics passing off CG targets as realtime at E3.

 

[llTll]

Well I want to fight :lol The fighting system sucks! I'm sure C-Warrior and Amir0x(and many others) agree with me.

i dont see what why the fighting system is bad?

the game is smooth, fast, addective not very deep so everyone can learn it.

its not as deep as tekken or VF. thats for sure. but its so fun

 

[llTll]

Nobody has ever doubted this (especially since "sort of" covers a lot of ground). I never had problem with such concepts.

But the fact remains that Sony execs (i.e. Harrison) kept insisting that the KZ footage as was realtime on PS3 dev kits during interviews, and that's the thing that the likes of me was protesting.

I'm sure by the end of this upcoming gen, many games will have the "overall impact" (i.e. your "sort of") of that Killzone footage for both consoles. But that's not the same as passing of said footages as realtime to trick your audience. I just wanted to call BS on Sony's tactics passing off CG targets as realtime at E3.

well... he wasnt lieing. Killzone was running on real time. but only 5 fps :lol


but i see your point though.

well.. look at the good side, you will never be able to say it cant be done on ps3 anymore :lol because, sort of it can :lol

 

[llTll]

Didnt Itagaki state he's re-doing the fight system completley, making it more simulation than arcady?

well, he also said his fighting game has better fighting system than VF and Tekken, and always he used to make fun of them. so dont take everything he say for real

wait and see for your self lol

 

[Pimpwerx]

Ugh. DOA4 has definitley improved. You'd be a ninny not to see the noticeable improvement in models and backgrounds. But this game is still a unified lighting model away from being next-gen. You can't get away with static lighting like this anymore. It takes those detailed models and makes them flat. Namco's gonna come with Tekken and blow the doors off this thing in its current form. Imagine it with a good lighting model. Some of the backdrops are phenomenal. With realistic lighting, you go from Xbox1.5 to the new high watermark for fighting games. You basically bridge the gap from these screens to the DOA CG. Why why why aren't they doing this? It's not the style, b/c the CG has that kind of lighting. The 360 is perfectly capable of pushing that level of lighting in game. Not sure if they'd have problems with a stage like the wrestling ring, and all its light sources, but just dumb that one down. But it's rather inexcusable that they're not letting this game look its full potential...yet. There's still hope come Monday(?). PEACE.

 

[Redbeard]

It depends on what your idea of "much better" is, but in my opinion yes the image I posted is a significant leap over what is currently in the game. Just as a quick passing example, in the pic you posted look at the texture of the lepoard skin leg stocking or whatever it is. Compare to the textures in the pic I posted.

I don't think that would make much of a difference. The soft, believable quality of the lighting is what makes that first shot look better. The detail on the clothing is there, all the ridges and bumps and whatnot on the leather and the roundness of the body isn't going to get much better.

 

[Prine]

well, he also said his fighting game has better fighting system than VF and Tekken, and always he used to make fun of them. so dont take everything he say for real

wait and see for your self lol

Not VF, but Tekken. And i agree, give me DOA over Tekken anyday. Got bored of that shit after 3.

And if its one of 360 big titles (Tekken 6) i'll be incredibly dissapointed, what a waste.

 

[Mrbob]

Didnt Itagaki state he's re-doing the fight system completley, making it more simulation than arcady?

Well, he said there willl be some significant changes. Don't know if that means more simulation or not.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't think that would make much of a difference. The soft, believable quality of the lighting is what makes that first shot look better. The detail on the clothing is there, all the ridges and bumps and whatnot on the leather and the roundness of the body isn't going to get much better.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. But I guarantee you that if such models as I posted were utilized in a DOA-type game, the jump would be vast and extremely noticeable. It's simply so much better than what we have in DOA, where minor polygon ridges and mediocre textures and lighting is a level below.

 

[llTll]

Not VF, but Tekken. And i agree, give me DOA over Tekken anyday. Got bored of that shit after 3.

And if its one of 360 big titles (Tekken 6) i'll be incredibly dissapointed, what a waste.

first of. dont insult my Tekken. its my fav games and one of the best fighting games for me...actually its the best fighting game..

i love the story. the cool model designs the fighting system and everything


anyway to make you happy. tekken is exclusive game for sony like always.

 

[Fuma]

if Tekken video on ps3 was done on real time [ again many people thought mobile suit gandam isnt but they got proven wrong ] IF it was being able to be done in real time. or close to, then i am pretty sure you wont even want to play DOA4 anymore

Maybe Im wrong here, but I thought the recent Gundam footage was quite different from the original full motion video CG from E3. The texture quality was especially downgraded.

 

[Escape Goat]

Are they recylcing some old environments from DOA3?

 

[Shogmaster]

well... he wasnt lieing. Killzone was running on real time. but only 5 fps :lol

The dude that works at Guerilla that posts here debunked that rumor weeks ago. The footage is pure pre-render and never ran on dev kit at any time.

but i see your point though.

well.. look at the good side, you will never be able to say it cant be done on ps3 anymore :lol because, sort of it can :lol

Do we really want the battlecry for next gen to be "IT CAN SORT OF BE DONE FOR REALZ! KINDA!!" ? I'd rather have "Here's how it's really running, even if it's not up to your wacky expectations" from devs and pubs.



Sorry funky papa. But I didn't start the derail.

 

[Funky Papa]

Oh God, what the hell happened to this thread?!

 

[raYne]

Oh God, what the hell happened to this thread?!

 

[jiggle]

Lisa looks hot.

 

[element]

I am still baffled by the amount of hate for the DOA4 graphics. I think it looks astonishing.

people confuse technology with art style. DOA has an art style that 'more polys' wouldn't really help. So detail is spent on animation, clothing, environments.

I think people will have to get used to things like this. If a game wants to be stylized, then so be it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

people confuse technology with art style. DOA has an art style that 'more polys' wouldn't really help. So detail is spent on animation, clothing, environments.

I think people will have to get used to things like this. If a game wants to be stylized, then so be it.

not many people (cept the trolls0 seem to complain about the models, we're complaining about the lightning and shadowing, which is still this-gen

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

people confuse technology with art style. DOA has an art style that 'more polys' wouldn't really help. So detail is spent on animation, clothing, environments.

I think people will have to get used to things like this. If a game wants to be stylized, then so be it.

Yep. In terms of directly visible polygons, the characters aren't going to look much, if any better. But don't you think this game would look WORLDS better with a new lighting model? I mean...it's pretty similar in appearence to the one that was used on the dreamcast. It's time for an upgrade here.

It's starting to seem to me that Team Ninja is good at one thing in terms of graphics. Throwing shit-tons of polygons on the screen. Their textures are good, as well, but in terms of more advanced effects, such as lighting, they don't seem to change much from game to game. This is why Ninja Gaiden looks so much like DoA, I think.

The graphics are still nice, but they're growing stale. The game has looked essentially the same since DoA2. Yes I know that graphically there have been very large jumps, but in terms of fundamentally what the game looks like, it hasn't really changed. That's a problem, I think.

 

[Insertia]

...

 

[RonaldoSan]

Is it only me that find the characters very boring? They don't have any personality. I think Tekken has much more interesting characters.

 

[Red Blaster]

In that DoA4 pic, Christie's belt is going through her thigh, ouch.

 

[Apharmd Battler]

coo, i like the blur

Motion blur will be the new effect every devleoper throws into a game next gen like lens flare in the 32 bit era...mark my words!!


Back to the subject...DOA4 is looking good and I cvan't wait to see this title in action. I'm already pumped for the online play. If they do the statistics and tournamnent piece like DOA:U, then I'm MORE than satisfied. I wonder how the changed game mechanics are going to work out.

 

[Red Blaster]

I recall Itagaki saying that it was only 15% complete at E3, yet these screens look damn near the same except with the blur.

 

[Kleegamefan]

DOA4:Fun with pre-baked lighting..

Pfft....gimmie VF5 on X360 instead....

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I recall Itagaki saying that it was only 15% complete at E3, yet these screens look damn near the same except with the blur.

It's pretty difficult to get a real comparison based on those blurry and smallish magazine scans there, man.

 

[Insertia]

And if you really can't see the added detail in the DOA4 screen, in terms of character definition, clothing texture, resolution, after-effects, and background details, then you've stepped out of cynical city into retarded territory. People are expecting TN to completely drop the anime-inspired artstyle that they've spent so much time establishing (fuck, even the CG movies in DOAU look like the 'porcelain dolls' people are complaining about.) it boggles the mind. I agree that an improved lighting/shadow system would certainly distance this game from its predecessors better, but some of the comments debasing the graphics are just . . . utter nonesense.

I see the improvements. I just don't see much of a generation gap between DOA:U and DOA4.

 

[Kleegamefan]

That does seem to be the rub, doesn't it?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Team Ninja eally tapped out the Xbox, they made DOAU look so good, people think it's next gen...

 

[Wunderchu]

DOA4 self-shadowing vs. no self-shadowing comparison (created by "busta_o_ring" , from here: http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=361436 ) [please note: as busta_o_ring mentioned, it's a not perfect comparison]:

I was just wondering what the game would look like with self shadowing. Quick photoshop work so it's no accurate, but personally, I would like to see shelf shadowing in the game. Doesn't change the style on bit, and adds more depth to the characters.

 

[Zeo]

I just hate the fucking plastic looking characters. If they're all about making these beautiful graphics, why stick with faces that look a generation old? I know they can do better than this.

 

[Wunderchu]

people confuse technology with art style. DOA has an art style that 'more polys' wouldn't really help. So detail is spent on animation, clothing, environments.

I think people will have to get used to things like this. If a game wants to be stylized, then so be it.

well said, IMO



However, I do think that Itagaki & co. are going to get DOA4 to look better @ launch than what was shown @ E³

 

[SolidSnakex]

For a developer like Team Ninja that almost prides itself on how nice its games look, you'd think that they'd realise that an anime style artstyle (as in super clean skin) won't lend itself well to showing off the graphics as well as it did this gen. You don't have to go super realistic or anything, but their current artstyle won't cut it.

 

[Attack You]

I thought Team Ninja were more about framerate & game speed than graphics, recalling an interview from years ago. (Probably DoA2 era.)

 

[raYne]

Gamespeed and fluidity (hence the counter system).

The shadows do add a bit to the look of the overall character as Wunderchu's pic shows but it certainly isn't the end of the world people are making it out to be. However, it's funny that the majority of the vocal ones who are quick to downplay the graphics don't like the series in the first place.

 

[pjberri]

Nope.

Soul Calibur
VF
Tekken
DOA


Lau has more charisma in his pimp-slappin' pinky than half the cookie cutter cast of Tekken. Kage dresses like Sulu went to a glam gay bar and still comes off cooler than the Mishimas. Now, the VF crowd may have shitty motivations for fighting and even crappier backstories, but in-game they have plenty of personality.

But nothing tops Ivy, Astaroth, Cervantes, that bitch Maxi, Voldo, and Seigfreid/Nightmare in one game.

No. VF is fucking awesome, but the characters are ridiculously bland. Ironic that you use 'cookie cutter' to bash Tekken's cast while praising VF's. :lol

 

[Kleegamefan]

Gamespeed and fluidity (hence the counter system).

The shadows do add a bit to the look of the overall character as Wunderchu's pic shows but it certainly isn't the end of the world people are making it out to be. However, it's funny that the majority of the vocal ones who are quick to downplay the graphics don't like the series in the first place.

That is outright horseshit...

I like the series fine...I just prefer VF...

I have every DOA (even the one on Saturn) and graphics have always been a big appeal of the series, especially recently...

The CG in team ninja games look much better than this (mostly because of the lighting used) and this is even true of the CG in DOA4 itself...so there goes that excuse...

DOA4 looks similar to the Xbox DOAs....a little too similar in my view....

This has been an issue since DOA4 was first shown just before E3....this *could* be an Xbox game....and some people thought it *was* a really good looking Xbox game.....

This issue has plauged the game ever since....not everybody is underwelmed by DOA4, but lots of people are.....you would have to be blind not to notice this trend....