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Dead or Alive 5: Last Round |OT| Bouncing on new systems.

Hubb

Member
She looks like a little girl with massive breasts. That's the difference. I think the only reason she doesn't have that big role right now is because she was DLC, as was Marie. And Marie got on the cover with Kasumi for LR.

Whether it's a problem is up to you, but I think the seeds are there.

In Japan she was, but not in America.

As for Honoka I think that is because she came out with basically the same face as Marie Rose. Otherwise I fail to see the a big enough difference between this (nsfw) and this (nsfw). And it isn't like Hitomi or some of the other women of DoA don't act, um lets say "silly". Also, it isn't like some of these characters were underage in previous games. TN isn't really breaking new ground by adding Honoka in.
 

Squire

Banned
No offense to you personally, but I'm not going to re-litigate this very old, boring case at this point. Honoka and Marie are not like Hitomi or any of the others, it's plain as day why, and that fans always play obtuse about it hurts these games and plays into stunting their ability to really expand their audience, I think.

Honoka looks like a 12 year old with massive tits. Hitomi doesn't. Most people get the difference. If you don't, I have no clue what to tell you. You guys will post in here and complain about DOA threads on the front page and I get it, but I think it might also be worth considering that, beneath the shitposts, there's a perfectly valid point that keeps coming up as well.
 

Hubb

Member
No offense to you personally, but I'm not going to re-litigate this very old, boring case at this point. Honoka and Marie are not like Hitomi or any of the others, it's plain as day why, and that fans always play obtuse about it hurts these games and plays into stunting their ability to really expand their audience, I think.

Honoka looks like a 12 year old with massive tits. Hitomi doesn't. Most people get the difference. If you don't, I have no clue what to tell you. You guys will post in here and complain about DOA threads on the front page and I get it, but I think it might also be worth considering that, beneath the shitposts, there's a perfectly valid point that keeps coming up as well.

By all means relitigate, this thread could use some more activity after it recently began to pick up. First off, I am not even arguing about or for Marie so you could put that to the side.

If your argument is that Honoka is a boring, lazy, uninspired character I'd agree with you. If you argument is that Honoka is another in a line of schoolgirls in the DoA universe with the only thing really differentiating her is that she has the biggest breast in the series then I'd agree with you.

If you argument is that Honoka somehow crossing the line about appealing to people into schoolgirls where other girls in the series don't, I'd disagree with you. DoA has been appealing to people with a schoolgirl fetish for the longest time, that ship has sailed.

This isn't a defense of Honoka, I don't like Honoka at all and if you don't believe me by all means go through my entire post history. You'll find just the opposite of me defending her. Just that the game already has tons of schoolgirls costumes, schoolgirl gym costumes, whatever the fuck the schoolgirl swimsuits are called. I don't see what line Honoka crosses that TN hasn't already crossed. So if you argument is that you don't want to see them going further or continue along that line, I agree with you. I'm just not kidding myself pretending Honoka is so much worse than some of the other things they have done.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Nah. For other games, whilst you COULD put up a similar example, you'd pretty much have to go out of your way to, so it's not likely going to be what you naturally first encounter when you stumble upon the game. Set DoA to random select everything and the above shot is a surprisingly likely outcome. The ratio of female to make characters are higher than average, and the ratio of casual to skimpy outfits is waaaaaay beyond its peers. Soul Calibur isn't even close to overtaking DoA in this regards, and with DoA's recent character additions the gap is arguably wider than ever before.
To be fair those two outfits you had to preorder or buy for those two outfit. But I can get where some people would say random select has a higher chance of getting it. However you have to unlock some of the more racy shit for some of the other characters.

Also, didn't DoA5 have Tekken 7's "jukebox" feature like...at launch? lolol

DoA does SO much right. I need that netcode to be shaped up. And to get a real PC port.
I am skeptical on both of those angles. I don't see team Ninja doing that much work on that regard sadly. It's a Japanese issue with the netcode and them being precious about the pc part.

I honestly do not think there will be a DOA6, at least anytime soon. Hopefully, I am wrong, but I honestly think by the time we see it, Tekken 8 might be unveiled and that is saying something based on Tekken's release history.
I would be with you if doax3 did not have a new engine for them to monkey with. When they make a new Engine they will make a new game. It's why we even had last round.

My guess would be because they're still making money off all the costume DLC and F2P model stuff for DOA5.

I would very much like to see a DOA6 released in the next year. I'd love to go back to DOA5, but the quality of online matches just sucks for the most part, especially with so many other fighting games out on current-gen platforms now. I hope that they do a good job with a PC version next go-round, too. :p
As I said earlier those two things I am not bullish on. But to be fair I think most devs outside of KI and injustice will never put in the work for a good solution to netcode.
 
But to be fair, all the other Japanese fighting game devs haven't released a F2P version of their game.

Koei Tecmo is arguably the most ahead in terms of embracing an online-oriented GAAS model, mainly by being the first one and still only one of a few. Capcpom is starting to close the gap but it's really not so unbelievable that the next DoA game has good netcode if they've been paying any attention at all to the complaints of DoA5.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Only way I see netcode being good is if it's designed with the west in mind. If it is with Asia in mind, same issues as before.
 

Synth

Member
To be fair those two outfits you had to preorder or buy for those two outfit. But I can get where some people would say random select has a higher chance of getting it. However you have to unlock some of the more racy shit for some of the other characters.

Yea, I didn't really mean those two outfits in general, just outfits to that effect. It's true that a lot of them require unlocking (or purchasing now), but I'd be pretty confident that if someone were to introduce the game to you, they've likely done so as up to recently that was pretty much what served as the franchises single player progression, in the way something like Tekken would unlock characters (and there's just an unlock combination you can use now).

It's hardly a new thing for the series, just more prominently today with DoA5LR than before. I'd say DoA3 (and the early days of DoA4) were the closest the series ever came to shaking it's "titty fighter" stigma. DoA1 (especially the PS1 version) and DoA2 certainly weren't helpful in that regards.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
DOA3 was a interesting game, it had some good ideas but in DOA4 they all went the other way.

I do see your point. But as I said before they should just make the game good and grow an organic fanbase and not try to appeal to other people playing other games. I do think if it's good enough and is handled properly it can do quite fine.
 

Synth

Member
DOA3 was a interesting game, it had some good ideas but in DOA4 they all went the other way.

I do see your point. But as I said before they should just make the game good and grow an organic fanbase and not try to appeal to other people playing other games. I do think if it's good enough and is handled properly it can do quite fine.

Yea, it's a shame DoA4 was a bit of a mess, because 3.1 had done a lot to draw interest, leading to a lot of people giving DoA4 a shot in the early days. Then everyone discovered that basically any blocked attack was unsafe to neutral throw and wake up game was non-existent due to the guaranteed forced wakeups basically putting people in 50/50s for the entirety of a match. It sucks because DoA4 had a huge stage all to itself (CGS), and it was simply the entry least equipped to make the most of it.

Overall, I don't mind that DoA has fanservicey stuff in it. It always did. I do wish however that they'd just separate it more into DoAX and have less of a focus in the mainline entries. Put all the swimsuits in the world in the DoAX games, but it'd be nice if more of the outfits in the fighters were more casual or at least looked like something someone may actually fight in.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
DOA4 is where I always said TI was overrated and how some of his best things is a fluke.

CGS on one hand was a huge missed opportunity, but seeing who managed it, it's only fitting that they had that travesty of a game to show.

I too would like if some of the other aspects were put into the other games too, but it looks like their scheme is having outfits slip from game to game. I have been looking for a way to ask them to restart project chronus.
 

Synth

Member
Eh, I'd only agree that Itagaki was overrated to the extent pretty much any celebrity game director is, in the sense that it's often the unseen members of a team that are responsible for the small variables that often determine how well a game actually plays. Like, Yu Suzuki is a legend (and for good reason), but I'm certainly not about to assume that the depth and balance of the movesets and movement options in Virtua Fighter 4 Evo comes from his knowledge and expertise at actually playing fighters. There's almost certainly someone (or a number of people) on that team who are practically walking fighting game encyclopedias, who are intimately in tune with the effects and consequences that all the small changes have on the overall game's balance and feel. We've seen Itagaki play DoA4, and it's very fucking clear that what DoA3.1 does right didn't come from him having a clue about how to play fighters lol.

On the other hand though, there is a lot that I feel Itagaki does deserve credit for when it comes to the higher-level concepts the series is built around. Stuff like the Hold button and the stage dynamics compared to what competing fighters had been doing at the time. When I first came across the original Dead or Alive in the arcades as a kid, it immediately grabbed my attention and became the game I'd immediately head to on every visit. Not because it had the bouncing breasts, but because it just came across as being flat out cooler than any other fighter there. I feel that from a presentation aspect this held up right up to and through Dead or Alive 4, before magically falling off a cliff with Dead or Alive 5, where the overall presentation feels comparatively corny and soulless... like a Twin Snakes version of itself. It hasn't affected the game on a gameplay level, where it's arguably as strong mechanically as its ever been... but that makes sense to me, as whoever is actually responsible for that element is likely still there doing what they always did... it's the overall direction that's seemingly suffered... which I guess would be explained by a change of director. I felt similar about Virtua Fighter 5 after Virtua Fighter 4, which also happened to be the last of the series Yu Suzuki directed. The gameplay is all there... but from this to this? Yeesh.

Even when talking about something like the DoAX games, it now seems comparatively half-assed. Gravure wallpaper votes to determine which 9 characters don't get shitcanned to save a few bucks (and make tons off the voters), background music not working, hair and clothing clipping in ways that were handled better of hardware two generations older, Owner mode basically punishing you for actually playing the game, animations lifted wholesale from the previous games, less activities overall, girls not having interaction scenes with their partner, etc. Sure, DoA4 was unbalanced... but there was a sense of pride for the product that feels absent today in favour of just seeing how much cash they can get from the fanbase for the minimal actual work put in. For that reason alone I can't view Itagaki as overrated, as I honestly miss the era of Team Ninja that he led.
 

Dantis

Member
No offense to you personally, but I'm not going to re-litigate this very old, boring case at this point. Honoka and Marie are not like Hitomi or any of the others, it's plain as day why, and that fans always play obtuse about it hurts these games and plays into stunting their ability to really expand their audience, I think.

Honoka looks like a 12 year old with massive tits. Hitomi doesn't. Most people get the difference. If you don't, I have no clue what to tell you. You guys will post in here and complain about DOA threads on the front page and I get it, but I think it might also be worth considering that, beneath the shitposts, there's a perfectly valid point that keeps coming up as well.

The stars have aligned and we agree for once. 100%.

DOA has always been a series that panders to titilation, but it has definitely dug itself down into a gross niche lately, and Honoka and Marie Rose are bottom of it. It's difficult to justify and quite close to becoming genuinely distasteful.
 

Eolz

Member
If we see low-risk high-appeal (you know in which way I mean that) characters like Marie and Honoka, I'd be surprised if they aren't DLC again anyway.
Launches are for risky new characters, like Rig and Mila that weren't exactly sure to work well, and that would likely haven't sold well as DLC. If there's new male characters for example, they'll be at DOA6 launch (or DOA6 Ultimate etc).

I really like what they did with Marie though, even if she's obviously done for a specific crowd in mind.
Honoka was full on lazy, but I think they can still save her a bit.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Ok who is here for the had lobby Tommrow? Give me a time and we cs. set it up. It will be the usual 2 to 4 hour lobby as long as people are playing. I will be hosting.
 
I can probs do any time Fri and/or Sat. Will stay up if it means more people. Want to see some of the newcomers in this thread in there!
 

Squire

Banned
The stars have aligned and we agree for once. 100%.

DOA has always been a series that panders to titilation, but it has definitely dug itself down into a gross niche lately, and Honoka and Marie Rose are bottom of it. It's difficult to justify and quite close to becoming genuinely distasteful.

Oh come now, we've had other agreements :b

But yes, I like the cheesecake aspect of the series myself, but they're going down the lowest road here.

If we see low-risk high-appeal (you know in which way I mean that) characters like Marie and Honoka, I'd be surprised if they aren't DLC again anyway.
Launches are for risky new characters, like Rig and Mila that weren't exactly sure to work well, and that would likely haven't sold well as DLC. If there's new male characters for example, they'll be at DOA6 launch (or DOA6 Ultimate etc).

I really like what they did with Marie though, even if she's obviously done for a specific crowd in mind.
Honoka was full on lazy, but I think they can still save her a bit.

I definitely agree Marie does play well. Honoka plays about as well as a character of that sort could herself, but Marie is at least a new creation from every angle, so that I can appreciate. That almost makes it a bigger shame though. It's like... but why is she a loli? Why? I don't think it's too much to say that audience just shouldn't be courted or acknowledged at all.
 
SWIMWEAR FOR ALL!
except Mai

DGWItRuVwAI42Y6.jpg


DGWIuccV0AMMpZ2.jpg


I'll post better pics if I find.

Not sure what's up with some guys in hoodies for the beach wth lol. Some male fans not gonna be happy, but at least they get in on the content this time round.

I will probably buy Kassie's.

Also, Season Pass 7 confirmed.


The PSN store icon (UK link) for the pack shows Zack in a different costume. Description says designs of outfits change in battle, so perhaps taunts or destruction alters them. Maybe male jackets get removed?


And now a close-up of Hayate's.

 

Squire

Banned
Small pics, but this pack seems good. Sarah getting a re-color is lol thoigh.

I don't mind another season pass, I just hope DOA6 is still coming sooner rather than later.
 

Lyte Edge

All I got for the Vernal Equinox was this stupid tag
Honoka looks like a 12 year old with massive tits. Hitomi doesn't. Most people get the difference. If you don't, I have no clue what to tell you.

Nah, I disagree with you. And by that, I mean that a lot of the characters have that doll-like "little girl/teen with massive tits" thing going on. Some of the characters look older, like Tina, Christie, Helena, and Lisa. But I don't see much of a difference between Honoka and Kasumi or Ayane, for example. Hitomi too, for that matter (who was listed as a "high school student" up until DOA5 came out).

And let's not forget that they've previously removed some characters' ages from English versions of the games because they're under 18.

The one that stands out the most to me as pandering is the only female who actually has a different body type- Marie Rose. Out of everyone, she looks like a little girl dressed in sexualized outfits more than anyone else. Honoka can essentially be thought of as Marie Rose's head pasted onto Tina's body, but the "adult body with babyface" look she has isn't any different than a lot of the other females.

Moreover, is anyone even trying to defend the fan-servicey stuff in this game? It's beyond obvious what they're doing. The fans wanted it after they tried to tone it down when DOA5 first came out, hence the truckloads of skimpy/fetishy DLC outfits that clearly must be selling well if they're about to come out with season pass #7 after five years of content.
 

Synth

Member
Ok who is here for the had lobby Tommrow? Give me a time and we cs. set it up. It will be the usual 2 to 4 hour lobby as long as people are playing. I will be hosting.
I can probs do any time Fri and/or Sat. Will stay up if it means more people. Want to see some of the newcomers in this thread in there!

Unfortunately I can't make it this weekend as I'm away from home. Should be able to make pretty much any slot for next week though.

I always thought the first game had the best presentation. Flet like a martial arts film.

I think I like DoA1 arcade most from a graphical standpoint (I love the look of Model 2 games, and it didn't take on the doll-like look until the PS1 port). In terms of looking like a martial arts movie though, I feel that's pretty much always been the case for Dead or Alive, and is one of its biggest draws. I remember seeing the animations (and stages) for Dead or Alive 2 back in 1999 and refusing to believe the final game was actually going to move anything like that. It's easy to look at the games now and take it for granted, but when compared with stuff like Virtua Fighter 3 and Tekken Tag at the time, Dead or Alive 2 was on a whole separate tier of awesome in regards to presentation.

One of the the things I really liked in the previous Dead or Alive games, was how well the intro sequences showcased the fighting styles and animations of each character. Dead or Alive 4's is my favourite of them all, and could sucker you into thinking it'll be the best fighting game ever. I feel like this sequence does a better job at giving each of the fighters character than the entire story mode of DoA5 does.

Nah, I disagree with you. And by that, I mean that a lot of the characters have that doll-like "little girl/teen with massive tits" thing going on. Some of the characters look older, like Tina, Christie, Helena, and Lisa. But I don't see much of a difference between Honoka and Kasumi or Ayane, for example. Hitomi too, for that matter (who was listed as a "high school student" up until DOA5 came out).

And let's not forget that they've previously removed some characters' ages from English versions of the games because they're under 18.

The one that stands out the most to me as pandering is the only female who actually has a different body type- Marie Rose. Out of everyone, she looks like a little girl dressed in sexualized outfits more than anyone else. Honoka can essentially be thought of as Marie Rose's head pasted onto Tina's body, but the "adult body with babyface" look she has isn't any different than a lot of the other females.

Moreover, is anyone even trying to defend the fan-servicey stuff in this game? It's beyond obvious what they're doing. The fans wanted it after they tried to tone it down when DOA5 first came out, hence the truckloads of skimpy/fetishy DLC outfits that clearly must be selling well if they're about to come out with season pass #7 after five years of content.

When it comes to Honoka, I think definitely think she comes across as appearing younger than characters like Hitomi, Kasumi, Ayane and the like. I think in some cases Dead or Alive's previous artstyle muddies the waters somewhat, as every character came off looking rather doll-like in the previous games regardless of the supposed age they were intended to appear as. Under the new artstyle however, most of the designs look clearly more adult primarily as a result of their faces looking less doll-like and more realistic. Meanwhile Honoka and Marie Rose both kinda look like they'd slot in with DoA's previous models despite the more realistic artstyle, so when they're sharing screen space with the other characters their childish appearance in comparison stands out.

I've also said it plenty of time in the past, but I think referencing fictional ages that characters are given is pointless. The character's designs and mannerisms speak infinitely louder. The Dead or Alive series has had feitshy outfits since forever, but if you compare the default portrayal of each female character... on the one hand you've got:

7G7gix6.png


... and then on the other hand you have:

MeMyEEs.jpg


IMO there's a pretty clear difference between any of the first set and the newer additions. It certainly doesn't help that they're both so short compared to every other member of the cast also.
 

Eolz

Member
Holy shit didn't expect male swimwear again!
Happy for hours left obviously, but this is really cool overall, worth some support for once.
And Rig loves his hoodies lol.
Edit: didn't expect those choices for Sarah and Christie, neat.
 
If TN would give us PC players online lobbies and the option to buy these DLC outfits individually, I would spend money on a few of those swimsuits.
 
Holy shit didn't expect male swimwear again!
Happy for hours left obviously, but this is really cool overall, worth some support for once.
And Rig loves his hoodies lol.
I don't want to get too excited yet, maybe they're all wearing MC Hammer pants.
 

Kuksune

Member
Eh, I'd only agree that Itagaki was overrated to the extent pretty much any celebrity game director is, in the sense that it's often the unseen members of a team that are responsible for the small variables that often determine how well a game actually plays. Like, Yu Suzuki is a legend (and for good reason), but I'm certainly not about to assume that the depth and balance of the movesets and movement options in Virtua Fighter 4 Evo comes from his knowledge and expertise at actually playing fighters. There's almost certainly someone (or a number of people) on that team who are practically walking fighting game encyclopedias, who are intimately in tune with the effects and consequences that all the small changes have on the overall game's balance and feel. We've seen Itagaki play DoA4, and it's very fucking clear that what DoA3.1 does right didn't come from him having a clue about how to play fighters lol.

On the other hand though, there is a lot that I feel Itagaki does deserve credit for when it comes to the higher-level concepts the series is built around. Stuff like the Hold button and the stage dynamics compared to what competing fighters had been doing at the time. When I first came across the original Dead or Alive in the arcades as a kid, it immediately grabbed my attention and became the game I'd immediately head to on every visit. Not because it had the bouncing breasts, but because it just came across as being flat out cooler than any other fighter there. I feel that from a presentation aspect this held up right up to and through Dead or Alive 4, before magically falling off a cliff with Dead or Alive 5, where the overall presentation feels comparatively corny and soulless... like a Twin Snakes version of itself. It hasn't affected the game on a gameplay level, where it's arguably as strong mechanically as its ever been... but that makes sense to me, as whoever is actually responsible for that element is likely still there doing what they always did... it's the overall direction that's seemingly suffered... which I guess would be explained by a change of director. I felt similar about Virtua Fighter 5 after Virtua Fighter 4, which also happened to be the last of the series Yu Suzuki directed. The gameplay is all there... but from this to this? Yeesh.

Even when talking about something like the DoAX games, it now seems comparatively half-assed. Gravure wallpaper votes to determine which 9 characters don't get shitcanned to save a few bucks (and make tons off the voters), background music not working, hair and clothing clipping in ways that were handled better of hardware two generations older, Owner mode basically punishing you for actually playing the game, animations lifted wholesale from the previous games, less activities overall, girls not having interaction scenes with their partner, etc. Sure, DoA4 was unbalanced... but there was a sense of pride for the product that feels absent today in favour of just seeing how much cash they can get from the fanbase for the minimal actual work put in. For that reason alone I can't view Itagaki as overrated, as I honestly miss the era of Team Ninja that he led.
If you're ever in Sweden, come visit me. I have an DOA 1 arcade cab that works :)
 

Kuksune

Member
Ok who is here for the had lobby Tommrow? Give me a time and we cs. set it up. It will be the usual 2 to 4 hour lobby as long as people are playing. I will be hosting.

If i have some energy left after work and Muay thai training, i'll come in and slay some :)
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Also, didn't DoA5 have Tekken 7's "jukebox" feature like...at launch? lolol

DoA does SO much right. I need that netcode to be shaped up. And to get a real PC port.

I love the feature, but it is in desperate need of a random or shuffle option. Tasking me to manually change tracks from the menu is just....what were they thinking???
 

Eolz

Member
Well, I planned to play that Sea of Thieves alpha but it has been cancelled, and Splatoon 2's splatfest actually starts tomorrow, so I'll come to play.

Also, I've never seen Mai as more than a one-off cameo. Unlike the VF characters, she's not been shown in this universe properly, nor has any reason to return (unlike let's say Raidou). I'd be surprised if she's back next time.

edit: just send an invite if you see me online, even if I'm in another game :p
 
I'd be surprised about Mai returning too. At least if they manage to get Ryo Hazuki in there, which is much more likely since Shenmue 3 will be on its way by then (or even already released), as a SEGA character he would at least get costumes, unlike Mai.

I am up to join the lobby. Is it gonna be just us three again? XD
 
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