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Dem donors: Warren VP pick could dry up Wall St donations

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pigeon

Banned
So let's not get into semantics here. Corruption vs not corruption. Not corruption because it's legal? In my view political donations are a form of legalized bribery and therefore legalized corruption.

The part of my post you cut out is pretty relevant here.

I gave $40 to Obama's campaign. That was a political donation.

Corruption?

My friend went to work for that campaign for free. That was a political donation too.

Corruption?

Votes, not donations should determine representation. Right? Or do we disagree here? The more donations are skewed from votes, the more "corrupt" the system or politician is.

I don't think this makes sense or is measurable or actionable. For one thing, the main reason people want donations is to spend that money on getting votes. So that's okay, presumably? That will just make votes and donations align.

I disagree on the last point. The problem is not a capitalistic society. I'm 100% pro well-regulated capitalism. I disagree that government should be so grossly influenced by money. That is not capitalism, that is crony capitalism.

The too fundamental problems that I see are these:
Money is not speech. (it is an exchange of property, which is obvious in every other case.... )
Corporations are not people. (also obvious, you can't jail them, etc.)

So, again, let's go through this argument. Which of the following should be protected speech, in your view?

* I go out on the street and tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I make a bunch of social media posts telling people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I go on local television and tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I pay for an ad on cable television where I tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I pay somebody else to make an ad to tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I give money to Hillary Clinton to make an ad where she tells people to vote for her.

Where is the line drawn?
 

avaya

Member
She would call their bluff on 2016 but the worry is this filtering into 2020.

But that's why they need to overturn back Citizens United with her new court by 2018.
 
The part of my post you cut out is pretty relevant here.

I gave $40 to Obama's campaign. That was a political donation.

Corruption?

My friend went to work for that campaign for free. That was a political donation too.

Corruption?



I don't think this makes sense or is measurable or actionable. For one thing, the main reason people want donations is to spend that money on getting votes. So that's okay, presumably? That will just make votes and donations align.



So, again, let's go through this argument. Which of the following should be protected speech, in your view?

* I go out on the street and tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I make a bunch of social media posts telling people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I go on local television and tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I pay for an ad on cable television where I tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I pay somebody else to make an ad to tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I give money to Hillary Clinton to make an ad where she tells people to vote for her.

Where is the line drawn?


When one industry funds your SuperPAC with $23 million dollars in "donations".

Come on, you're being deliberately obtuse here.
 

pigeon

Banned
When one industry funds your SuperPAC with $23 million dollars in "donations".

Come on, you're being deliberately obtuse here.

I don't really think I am? I assume there's, like, a general principle here, so I would like to understand what people think it is.

I don't think "money isn't speech" is a good general principle. Like I said, when I give $40 to my candidate, I don't think I am being corrupt or polluting the system. But that's a political donation! So what do people actually want?

Are you drawing the line at the amount? What's the appropriate amount of money to give in donations before it's corruption?
 

avaya

Member
When one industry funds your SuperPAC with $23 million dollars in "donations".

Come on, you're being deliberately obtuse here.

Comcast funded the shit out of Dems. Obama even put up an ex-cable industry lobbyist as head of the FCC.

Obama got FCC to push Net Neutrality and FCC/DOJ blocked CMCSA-TWC deal. However according to you this was impossible since he must of been bought and paid for by the Telcos.
 
Are you drawing the line at the amount? What's the appropriate amount of money to give in donations before it's corruption?
I think all most people want is for individuals to be the only valid contributor to PACs, not just any old incorporated entity, and for the limit to he whatever it is now ($2700, I think).
 
Ironically if I was a Wall St type I'd rather have Warren as VP than in the senate gaining more seniority influence over legislation and committees. She can be sidelined as VP, trotted out to give speeches but have very little influence on actual policy; I don't get the impression that Hillary will continue the W Bush/Obama trend of consequential, influential VPs. Bill Clinton didn't go in that direction either (overall).
 

pigeon

Banned
I think all most people want is for individuals to be the only valid contributor to PACs, not just any old incorporated entity, and for the limit to he whatever it is now ($2700, I think).

PACs can't accept donations from corporations, but I assume you mean superPACs (i.e., you are specifically concerned about Citizens United, which makes sense). I feel like a lot of people in the thread are making much broader claims than you are here, though.

I certainly would prefer to have Citizens United overturned, because I think our current legal structure is, at the very least, inconsistent. There is no particular reason to privilege superPACs over regular PACs.

I am not sure that that, in itself, would resolve the concerns people have over money in poltiics.
 

Cipherr

Member
Did the OP just create a thread which basically created a background for them to cry foul if Warren doesn't win the nom? Like.... if Hillary doesn't pick her, are we now going to be pointed to this thread as "proof" that Wall Street runs Hillary Clinton?

I'm starting to see through the freaking subterfuge over here. Getting better at spotting this nonsense. I hope Im wrong, but thats what the wording in the OP seems to imply.

So either she chooses Warren or she obviously listened to the Wall Street Donors?

This. On top of the shaky basis of the article to begin with.
 
PACs can't accept donations from corporations, but I assume you mean superPACs (i.e., you are specifically concerned about Citizens United, which makes sense). I feel like a lot of people in the thread are making much broader claims than you are here, though.

I certainly would prefer to have Citizens United overturned, because I think our current legal structure is, at the very least, inconsistent. There is no particular reason to privilege superPACs over regular PACs.

I am not sure that that, in itself, would resolve the concerns people have over money in poltiics.
Semantically speaking I am correct. "Super PACs" is a colloquial term for an independent expenditure only PAC, which is technically still a PAC. There are tons of different kinds of PACs and they're all correctly labled as such.

I think that really would assuage the concern people have. It would make every kind of political donation equitable.
 
Comcast funded the shit out of Dems. Obama even put up an ex-cable industry lobbyist as head of the FCC.

Obama got FCC to push Net Neutrality and FCC/DOJ blocked CMCSA-TWC deal. However according to you this was impossible since he must of been bought and paid for by the Telcos.

Wheeler was a career Industry exec/lobbyist - the exact kind of person all that money should buy in terms of appointments. The political left was if not explicitly against, than certainly annoyed with the choice.


Remember this shit? Apparently not:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/obamas-bad-pick-a-former-lobbyist-at-the-f-c-c



It can't be stated how highly the man has performed in his job that they hate him now. No one expected it. Obama deserves *zero* credit for that.
 

itschris

Member
You're not too upset for Hilary choosing based on potential Wall Street donations? What?

Couldn't you say that any VP pick (or more broadly, any campaign initiative) would be done with some consideration for the potential impact on donations? For example, choosing Warren might energize women with the prospect of the first two-women ticket, while also encouraging fans of Bernie Sanders. Or choosing a Hispanic person could make Latinos more likely to donate. That doesn't mean that donations are the only aspect to consider, just a part of the whole.
 
You're not too upset for Hilary choosing based on potential Wall Street donations? What?

I'm not upset and the notion of Hillary Clinton taking money from Wall Street in order to not do a thing that I don't think it would be a good idea for her to do. Especially since I doubt she's going to do it anyway. If Wall Street donors told her they wouldn't pay her if she went BASE jumping, I always wouldn't get worked up, because that would also be a thing I don't want her to do, and don't think she should do.

I was even less upset once I read past the headline and saw that it wasn't Wall Street donors saying "Don't pick Warren, or else!" But instead Democrat insiders saying they've been told by some donors that other donors would be less likely to support a Warren pick.
 

pigeon

Banned
Wheeler was a career Industry exec/lobbyist - the exact kind of person all that money should buy in terms of appointments. The political left was if not explicitly against, than certainly annoyed with the choice.


Remember this shit? Apparently not:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/obamas-bad-pick-a-former-lobbyist-at-the-f-c-c



It can't be stated how highly the man has performed in his job that they hate him now. No one expected it. Obama deserves *zero* credit for that.

Let me see if I understand this.

* Obama chose an FCC appointment that lots of people disapproved of, not because of his stances, but because of his employment history.
* That FCC appointment went on to do exactly the kind of FCC regulation the people who disapproved of him actually wanted in the first place.
* This is, in your mind, an argument that those people were right to oppose his appointment based on his employment history, not that Obama actually knew more about what the guy would do than anybody else did because he spent a bunch of time vetting him and that the guy actually understood FCC business well enough to see through the cable company lobbyists.

Do I have that right?

If so, why do you think this?
 
Wheeler was a career Industry exec/lobbyist - the exact kind of person all that money should buy in terms of appointments. The political left was if not explicitly against, than certainly annoyed with the choice.


Remember this shit? Apparently not:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/obamas-bad-pick-a-former-lobbyist-at-the-f-c-c



It can't be stated how highly the man has performed in his job that they hate him now. No one expected it. Obama deserves *zero* credit for that.

It's almost like Obama may have talked to the person he was thinking of appointing to a position and made sure his opinion on important issues lined up with his.
 
Hillary would be smart to pick a qualified minority. A Hispanic VP would drive even more nails into the GOP's coffin and further secure a liberal leaning supreme court. I like Warren, but Dems shouldn't take any chances with the stakes so high.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
It's almost like Obama may have talked to the person he was thinking of appointing to a position and made sure his opinion on important issues lined up with his.
Nah, that can't be it. That was all pure dumb luck.

#nobama
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I don't really think I am? I assume there's, like, a general principle here, so I would like to understand what people think it is.

I don't think "money isn't speech" is a good general principle. Like I said, when I give $40 to my candidate, I don't think I am being corrupt or polluting the system. But that's a political donation! So what do people actually want?

Are you drawing the line at the amount? What's the appropriate amount of money to give in donations before it's corruption?

None.

Publicly funded parties ftw.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
You didn't answer the question. How should this be reported?

She is free to explain her decision.
She could say no to the money and then not pick Warren.

Clearly, the money has conditions attached. You think this is the only condition?

Let's say Hillary changed her mind and said we should reinstate glass steagall. Would she still get the money?

Personally, I see problems in both cases.
Politicians changing their mind to get donor money. Clearly bad right?
Donors propping up politicians that agree with their views when they are different from constituents? Clearly bad right?

Warren would result in less high-rolling donors because those have the chance to pull out.
Influencing policy is harder, especially in the second term - there's no direct link in causation.

I still can't get why lobbying and private-funded campaigns are legal in the US (In Italy, where i live, political campaigns are done with public funds), but if you think Hillary Clinton doesn't have a beef with it all and especially against Citizens United, which allows for a large chunk of the whole pork circus...

Yeah, it's a problem, money influences politics - at all levels and likely everyone, HRC included - but HRC would also nominate to the court a judge likely to overturn CU, which is a lasting change in the right direction on that topic.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Sure, okay. That is pretty far from the American mainstream position, though. I think that is about as useful to discuss as the full ban on guns people like to bring up.

Oh, sure. But literally anything sensible is removed from the American mainstream because the precedent has been set that this is a Supreme Court matter. Best you'll get is an end to SuperPACs, which is like pissing into an inferno.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Let me see if I understand this.

* Obama chose an FCC appointment that lots of people disapproved of, not because of his stances, but because of his employment history.
* That FCC appointment went on to do exactly the kind of FCC regulation the people who disapproved of him actually wanted in the first place.
* This is, in your mind, an argument that those people were right to oppose his appointment based on his employment history, not that Obama actually knew more about what the guy would do than anybody else did because he spent a bunch of time vetting him and that the guy actually understood FCC business well enough to see through the cable company lobbyists.

Do I have that right?

If so, why do you think this?

Seriously?

He was clearly leaning towards doing the very worst and most pro-telecom thing he could do until there was massive protests, multiple huge non-telecom corporations coming out against it, and tons of opinion articles written critical of it, leading to Obama needing to do an entire speech just on that issue, and thus ending any potential for Wheeler to do anything but the right thing.

After Obama very publicly came out as pro net neutrality in the weeks leading up to the decision, his own appointee can't really do the exact opposite no matter what he was really planning, but it shouldn't have to take a massive movement and presidential intervention to keep someone like that in check, because there are going to be a ton of smaller issues which just can't get that sort of blowback.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
The part of my post you cut out is pretty relevant here.

I gave $40 to Obama's campaign. That was a political donation.

Corruption?

My friend went to work for that campaign for free. That was a political donation too.

Corruption?

I don't think this makes sense or is measurable or actionable. For one thing, the main reason people want donations is to spend that money on getting votes. So that's okay, presumably? That will just make votes and donations align.

So, again, let's go through this argument. Which of the following should be protected speech, in your view?

* I go out on the street and tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I make a bunch of social media posts telling people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I go on local television and tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* I pay for an ad on cable television where I tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I pay somebody else to make an ad to tell people to vote for Hillary Clinton.
* I give money to Hillary Clinton to make an ad where she tells people to vote for her.

Where is the line drawn?

Donations get votes, but donations lead to misinformed votes. You can saturate the airwaves with misleading information just because you have more money.


There. Move it one up if someone paid you to appear on TV.
Again, paying money is not speech. It is a transaction of property.

Not that hard haha. Why is that the line? If it takes individuals to influence individuals, then that is more proportional to the influence your vote should exert. It is still not a level playing field. Rich people could take time off to go canvassing while poor people would have to work instead, but the problem is much much more reduced. Money buys you a crazy amount of disproportionate political influence.

You are basically making the argument gun nuts make. If it doesn't prevent all deaths then it is not a law worth passing!
Wrong line of thinking. We can take steps to make the representative democracy aspects of our government to focus more correctly.



Warren would result in less high-rolling donors because those have the chance to pull out.
Influencing policy is harder, especially in the second term - there's no direct link in causation.

I still can't get why lobbying and private-funded campaigns are legal in the US (In Italy, where i live, political campaigns are done with public funds), but if you think Hillary Clinton doesn't have a beef with it all and especially against Citizens United, which allows for a large chunk of the whole pork circus...

Yeah, it's a problem, money influences politics - at all levels and likely everyone, HRC included - but HRC would also nominate to the court a judge likely to overturn CU, which is a lasting change in the right direction on that topic.

I don't think I have ever singled out HRC as being 'particularly' bad or anything.
I think the whole system is fucked and some people benefit or take advantage of it more than others.

Again, Republicans are much much worse and much more shameless about this.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Sure, okay. That is pretty far from the American mainstream position, though. I think that is about as useful to discuss as the full ban on guns people like to bring up.

We will get there don't worry. Campaign finance reform is an issue that Americans on both sides of the aisle care about. (voters, not politicians).

5 states have passed calls for article 5 convention already. Just in the last few years.
Democracy Spring had the most people arrested at the capitol in history.

Just because something is difficult it doesn't mean it is not the right position.

Seriously?

He was clearly leaning towards doing the very worst and most pro-telecom thing he could do until there was massive protests, multiple huge non-telecom corporations coming out against it, and tons of opinion articles written critical of it, leading to Obama needing to do an entire speech just on that issue, and thus ending any potential for Wheeler to do anything but the right thing.

After Obama very publicly came out as pro net neutrality in the weeks leading up to the decision, his own appointee can't really do the exact opposite no matter what he was really planning, but it shouldn't have to take a massive movement and presidential intervention to keep someone like that in check, because there are going to be a ton of smaller issues which just can't get that sort of blowback.

If it wasn't for the protests and (more importantly!) huge pressure from Silicon Valley web startup investors and several big companies, Telecom companies would have fucked us over and Obama would have done shit about it.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Seriously?

He was clearly leaning towards doing the very worst and most pro-telecom thing he could do until there was massive protests, multiple huge non-telecom corporations coming out against it, and tons of opinion articles written critical of it, leading to Obama needing to do an entire speech just on that issue, and thus ending any potential for Wheeler to do anything but the right thing.

After Obama very publicly came out as pro net neutrality in the weeks leading up to the decision, his own appointee can't really do the exact opposite no matter what he was really planning, but it shouldn't have to take a massive movement and presidential intervention to keep someone like that in check, because there are going to be a ton of smaller issues which just can't get that sort of blowback.

I don't remember liking Wheeler, but if fundamentally we can't have the appointee disagree in any meaningful way with the President, shouldn't people really have been unhappy with Obama and not Wheeler?

Why would Obama nominate someone who disagreed with him on basically the "big issue" that the appointed officer would have to deal with? I guess I don't remember why this happened.
 

pigeon

Banned
Donations get votes, but donations lead to misinformed votes. You can saturate the airwaves with misleading information just because you have more money.


There. Move it one up if someone paid you to appear on TV.
Again, paying money is not speech. It is a transaction of property.

Not that hard haha. Why is that the line? If it takes individuals to influence individuals, then that is more proportional to the influence your vote should exert. It is still not a level playing field. Rich people could take time off to go canvassing while poor people would have to work instead, but the problem is much much more reduced. Money buys you a crazy amount of disproportionate political influence.

You are basically making the argument gun nuts make. If it doesn't prevent all deaths then it is not a law worth passing!
Wrong line of thinking. We can take steps to make the representative democracy aspects of our government to focus more correctly.





I don't think I have ever singled out HRC as being 'particularly' bad or anything.
I think the whole system is fucked and some people benefit or take advantage of it more than others.

Again, Republicans are much much worse and much more shameless about this.

Okay, so to be clear, you are making the argument here that it's unethical for Bernie Sanders to accept all those $27 donations. Money isn't speech. People shouldn't be trying to sway the political process! Right?
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I don't remember liking Wheeler, but if fundamentally we can't have the appointee disagree in any meaningful way with the President, shouldn't people really have been unhappy with Obama and not Wheeler?

Why would Obama nominate someone who disagreed with him on basically the "big issue" that the appointed officer would have to deal with? I guess I don't remember why this happened.

Obama playing Washington Ball.

"In addition to being a former lobbyist, Wheeler has been a big campaign contributor to President Obama, giving $38,500 of his own money between 2008 and 2011, and also bundling together contributions from friends and associates. In the 2008 campaign, he raised between two hundred thousand and five hundred thousand dollars in this way for Obama, according to OpenSecrets.org, and he then led the Obama transition team focussed on science, technology, and the arts. During last year’s campaign, he raised more than five hundred thousand dollars for Team Obama. "

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/obamas-bad-pick-a-former-lobbyist-at-the-f-c-c

Money buys you influence. Simple. As. That.

Okay, so to be clear, you are making the argument here that it's unethical for Bernie Sanders to accept all those $27 donations. Money isn't speech. People shouldn't be trying to sway the political process! Right?

Would I prefer a system where politicians took no money? Definitely.
I don't want a crazy populist candidate winning just because they take advantage of misinformed people (not saying this is what Bernie did).
Am I smart enough to see a difference between small donations from many supporters and large donations from corporate interests? Umm yes.

It's like you are being deliberate obtuse here. I already explained this before. The more skewed the donations are, the worse it is. Large donations much worse than small ones. Bundled donations from a narrow number of special interests worse than from average constituents. Closed meetings with big donors worse than open rallies with 30000 people. Donations from Unions are bad, but large donations from a single executive are worse.

It is really not that difficult.

I'm not even a Bernie supporter so.. not sure why he is even coming into the discussion.
 
Going on what Boiled said,

Article: https://hbr.org/2016/05/lobbyists-are-behind-the-rise-in-corporate-profits
Study: http://ssrn.com/abstract=2778641


In a new research paper, I tease apart the factors associated with the growth in corporate valuations relative to assets and the growth in operating margins. I account for the roles of R&D, spending on advertising and marketing, and on administrative costs, including IT. I also consider investments in lobbying, political campaign spending, and regulation; and I look for links between rising profits and industry concentration and stock volatility.

I find that investments in conventional capital assets like machinery and spending on R&D together account for a substantial part of the rise in valuations and profits, especially during the 1990s. However, since 2000, political activity and regulation account for a surprisingly large share of the increase.

Much of this result is driven by the role of regulation, so it is important to understand the link between regulation and profits. Lobbying and political campaign spending can result in favorable regulatory changes, and several studies find the returns to these investments can be quite large. For example, one study finds that for each dollar spent lobbying for a tax break, firms received returns in excess of $220.

Buh0t7n.png


I'm of the belief that Disney, ExxonMobile, Comcast, Verizon or whoever else, who in their daily corporate activities act with cuntish behavior, suddenly have no malice or self centered intentions come election season. If Hillary Supporters really don't it's a problem that she gets all this money and endorsement from these corporate entities, because there is no proof, why doesn't this extent to their belief system across the aisle.
You'd by proxy make the argument that if corporate funds is not a problem, then NRA are not buying any influence either. And anti Environmental policies are not being passed, because the very idea that there is a conflict of interest is something we should dismiss as purity test bullshit stump speech kids glove conspiracy theories.

American corporate entities in politics is a neoliberal nightmare. It's absolutely terrible to see, Hillary supporters almost champion these donations, as not an act of neccesary evil and compromise, but as an act of having so poor optics they cannot see Hillary (or anyone else, including Bernie).
It's not just corporate donations. I think the DNC and the RNC are terrible platforms. Having biased entities already bringing politics into who, what, and how they will act as conduits on the behalf of the candidates is a massive clusterfuck. As is it, when media corps throw their money in the ring ( http://www.politico.com/blogs/media...ens-of-media-organizations-individuals-207228) or when news outlet- organizations who are supposed to be as neutral as possible throw their endorsement in the ring.

The problem is not that Planned Parenthood is evil or corrupt because it endorses Hillary Clinton. The problem is that it throws a money wrench into something that is supposed to be a fair contest, and is now being impacted by a popular institution giving its endorsement, and by doing so, panders to the people who support that that institution.
Bernie Sanders also sought the endorsement of famous people, and it was when he was at his worst. The Idea that those "don't take my word for it- just listen to what these guys think of me" is supposed to sway voters is so sad and depressing.
I don't agree that the word "corruption!" and "establishment" are good words to sell the message. I think Sanders campaign was not wise to engage into that. There is nothing you can do or say one way or another against a direct accusation. It was always going to end in a stallmate, and since apathy is leading among both young voters and democratic voters, it was clear that, this sort of attack rhetoric was not going to serve Sanders campaign.
I sincerely hope Americans will become less okay with this practice. You cannot just holla and shout when it's the NRA. While they might be the most powerful, there are so many others who have just as self-centered interests. Lobbying works. For them. America has to acknolwedge that corporate profits are at odds with what is best for people. They will always sell it as "More jobs, more profits" and fearmongering on the alternative, but at some point you have to put your foot down.
 
The problem is not that Planned Parenthood is evil or corrupt because it endorses Hillary Clinton. The problem is that it throws a money wrench into something that is supposed to be a fair contest, and is now being impacted by a popular institution giving its endorsement, and by doing so, panders to the people who support that that institution..

Can you point me to the political contest in the history of the world where institutions stood on the sidelines and simply let the candidates speak for themselves? You can't, because it's never happened. This 'fair contest' has never and would never happen and frankly, shouldn't happen,

I'm not going to buy into this "oh, PP is just as bad as the NRA" because they got involved in the Democratic Primary on the side that Sanders fans didn't like. Some organizations are working toward laudable goals, some aren't.

Even if we suddenly have publicly funded elections, who PP endorsed would still be a big deal and it should be and if Sanders fans don't like that, they can spend a century working on women's health issues so they have as much respect as PP does in the community.
 

atr0cious

Member
The problem is not that Planned Parenthood is evil or corrupt because it endorses Hillary Clinton. The problem is that it throws a money wrench into something that is supposed to be a fair contest, and is now being impacted by a popular institution giving its endorsement, and by doing so, panders to the people who support that that institution.

I'm sorry but we don't live in a vaccuum, when Planned Parenthood is fighting for it's life and the rights of millions, and Bernie would've been all for their endorsement. To call them corrupt for not backing him was childish at the least. A healthcare organization panders to people? What? Then what about the nurses PAC for bernie?
 
Can you point me to the political contest in the history of the world where institutions stood on the sidelines and simply let the candidates speak for themselves? You can't, because it's never happened. This 'fair contest' has never and would never happen and frankly, shouldn't happen,

Public Funded with heavy regulations essentially keep corporate institutes from impacting the elections. It's done in many countries around the world. I'm surprised you don't know this.

You can probably never make anything truly fair, if you want to take some arbitrary philosophical highground, but there are many countries where consensus would be that the election would be a more fair contest than it is in the United States. It's not common for actors, and businessmen, and other famous individuals to be able to insert themself into the top elite of famous politicians. America has a long history with this.

I don't for a second believe that Hillary Clinton, had she not been the first lady, she would most likely not have become a Senator, nor a Presidential nominee. She has latched on her fame of being the first lady. And that's not an insult, because I recognize that this name branding is such a massive deal in the States (and in many other countries). But it's still depressing. Because you wonder who is sitting out there, who might be a better choice, but who is opted out because they are not famous or good at branding themselves.

Obama himself was a perfect example of someone nobody really knew who the Democratic party, in less than 4 years after he gave that historic speech in 2004, had become massively famous. Almost like you're not voting for a politician, but a character, where their religious belief, their spouses, everything in their past and everything else is held up as even more important than their beliefs and policies. This is total shallow and superficial reality that worships the character, not the platform the candidate is running on.



I'm not going to buy into this "oh, PP is just as bad as the NRA" because they got involved in the Democratic Primary on the side that Sanders fans didn't like. Some organizations are working toward laudable goals, some aren't.

Even if we suddenly have publicly funded elections, who PP endorsed would still be a big deal and it should be and if Sanders fans don't like that, they can spend a century working on women's health issues so they have as much respect as PP does in the community.

I never said PP is as bad as the NRA. If you took that away from my post then you didn't grasp the argument I was getting at. You're latching onto the individuals, I am arguing on the broad systemic practice.

It's irrelevant what the organizations is working against because it's an eye of the beholder situation. For some people NRA are the freaking the best. For some people, they'll vote the way AIPAC blows.
The point is that if you give lenience to corporate entities to change how the wind blows, you're making it less about the issues of the politicians, and turning it into a senseless popularity contest where the most famous and recognizable people end up in office. It makes people dumber, and allows them to not insert themself into issues, but just makes them want to vote for whoever they like is voting for. And then you end up with the likes of Donald Trump, Arnold and Hillary Clinton - Uber famous people who are using their fame to get mass exposure, and play that to their advantage.
Corporations should stay the fuck out of it.





I'm sorry but we don't live in a vaccuum, when Planned Parenthood is fighting for it's life and the rights of millions, and Bernie would've been all for their endorsement. To call them corrupt for not backing him was childish at the least. A healthcare organization panders to people? What? Then what about the nurses PAC for bernie?

Bernie is a part of the problem too. And he would be a hypocrite for the PP endorsement. Corporations should not try and impact the election or sway voters with their own agenda. PP doing good is irrelevant, and there are voters who have completely different optics on many corporations who also argue that they'll vote for whoever their favorite corp supports. AIPAC is a good example of this. And if you really sit down and inform yourself on how fucking evil these assholes are, you'd think twice before jumping on this badwagon that this is all just a vacuum.
At a certain point voters carry a responsibility in instigating this behavior. These massive systemic problems like mass incarcerations, privatized prisons, unlawful and genocidal occupations, massive gun violence, obscene tuition fees, terrible social networks for a first world countries, are almost uniquely extreme in America partially or primarily due to circumstances allowed by self centered corporations allowing their influence to poison career politicians who forget about serving their country before themselves.
America is absolutely extreme and the manner of which corporations enact their influence is blatantly transparent and grotesque. It happens in other countries to, but what is at stake in American elections pours into other countries. TPP being a excellent example of this fuckery.

You're losing sight of the argument if you think Planned Parenthoods good intentions give them a free pass. That's not how it works, and it's not how you can accurately judge these things from where you're standing on a selection basis. For some people NRA are the best and most wonderful people in the world. So this entire discussion about what corporations do good or bad, is useless. Government regulation on corporation is not some allocate system where you can choose and pick who the rules are to be enforced to.

Hillary Supporters get it completely warped up wrong when they conflate the condemnation of lobbying influence and systemic outside pandering with disliking the work of a organization on a Individual level. That's not what it is about. I absolutely agree that PP is a very brave organization and they do a lot of good. But you cannot pass regulations and fair legislation on how you personally feel. So what goes for PP goes for NRA too. And here we are- Another day, with another corporation stifling the will of the people by enacting their influence in congress.
 
So you why do you think they want to damage Hillary?


They want conservatives in power. If they have a shot to damage liberals and shift the country economically right, they will.
Contrary to the narrative that bernie bros have setup, Hilary is not a complete corporate shill waiting to appoint republicans to the supreme court.
 
Question for everyone saying that Warren is more valuable in the Senate anyway: If this is the case then why would certain Wall Street donors pull out if Hillary put Warren on the VP ticket? Wouldn't this be to their benefit to have someone who's anti-Wall Street in a largely ineffectual role as opposed to being in the Senate?
 

Cagey

Banned
They want conservatives in power. If they have a shot to damage liberals and shift the country economically right, they will.
Contrary to the narrative that bernie bros have setup, Hilary is not a complete corporate shill waiting to appoint republicans to the supreme court.
This is a naïve and simplistic view of corporate interests.

Stability and competency and predictability matter a lot more than left-right allegiance for most industries. Volatility and unpredictability from DC seeps into the markets.
 

SL128

Member
Question for everyone saying that Warren is more valuable in the Senate anyway: If this is the case then why would certain Wall Street donors pull out if Hillary put Warren on the VP ticket? Wouldn't this be to their benefit to have someone who's anti-Wall Street in a largely ineffectual role as opposed to being in the Senate?
Wall Street donors aren't as savvy as you think, and also picking her as VP would symbolically suggest to them that she may be in favor of regulating them.
 
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