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Democratic Primary Debate V

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Implying she is corrupt because she was paid to give speeches at Goldman is clearly a personal attack.

Hillary has now adopted the line of reasoning the entire campaign finance criticism is a "smear campaign", which is itself a blatant deflection.

When you're consistently being funded by big donors, including over $20 million for this campaign alone, there's little room for implication that big donor money is playing a role in her decision-making. The speeches were likely brought up to draw more attention to this relationship - it doesn't help when you're trying to distance yourself from their influence.
 
In what universe is attacking her on campaign finance personal?



You do a disservice to what should really be called a circus with this dismissive attitude.
It's a circus. If we called every presidential candidate's integrity into question because they got paid for speaking by corporations then we wont have had a democracy. These purity tests dont belong in us democracy.
 

Jenov

Member
are facts not facts or something?

Wait, what? So now it's a fact that if you're famous and paid to do a speech for a bank that you are corrupt?

And it is a personal attack. Hillary doing a fraction of her overall speeches to a few banking conventions has nothing to do with her current campaign. It's a personal attack, insinuating that she's corrupt, both with no factual evidence whatsoever and treating her unfairly compared to her peers who have never been asked to release personal speeches outside of their campaign.

It's a smear, to insinuate that she's a bad person. How about some proof before we pursue the witch hunt and claim that it's a fact that she's corrupt?

His speaking engagements and book deals will be massive after this election. And he's earned that.

Apparently Bernie's on the fast track to corruption, since now all of his speaking fees will fetch well into the 100k range.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
are facts not facts or something?

Just because you consider it factual does not mean it's not a personal attack. She could point out that Bernie had creepy rape fantasies when he was younger, for instance. That is true and also a personal attack.

Hillary has now adopted the line of reasoning the entire campaign finance criticism is a "smear campaign", which is itself a blatant deflection.

When you're consistently being funded by big donors, including over $20 million for this campaign alone, there's little room for implication that big donor money is playing a role in her decision-making. The speeches were likely brought up to draw more attention to this relationship - it doesn't help when you're trying to distance yourself from their influence.

You're free to feel that way. It's still a personal attack. He's not attacking her position on whatever policy differences they have on campaign finance (which, again, is really dumb since it's the SC, not the president, that is in control of that issue) he's saying she is personally corrupt. Bernie is pretending his campaign is about issues and not negative. Just pointing our the hypocrisy.
 
Just because you consider it factual does not mean it's not a personal attack. She could point out that Bernie had creepy rape fantasies when he was younger, for instance. That is true and also a personal attack.



You're free to feel that way. It's still a personal attack. Bernie is pretending his campaign is about issues and not negative. Just pointing our the hypocrisy.
If criticizing her paid speaking engagements is a personal attack then what isn't a personal attack? What exactly about a person's record and affiliations is okay to criticize?

You use "creepy rape fantasies" as a comparison, so I think you already know why it's not a personal attack.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
If criticizing her paid speaking engagements is a personal attack then what isn't a personal attack? What exactly about a person's record and affiliations is okay to criticize?

You use "creepy rape fantasies" as a comparison, so I think you already know why it's not a personal attack.

"Secretary Clinton doesn't want to break up Citigroup and I do" is a policy critique. "Secretary Clinton takes money from Wall Street fat cats" is a personal attack. I don't think this distinction is particularly hard to grasp.
 
"Secretary Clinton doesn't want to break up Citigroup and I do" is a policy critique. "Secretary Clinton takes money from Wall Street fat cats" is a personal attack. I don't think this distinction is particularly hard to grasp.
It's a personal attack in the same sense that the pointing out her Iraq war vote was in '08.
 
"Secretary Clinton doesn't want to break up Citigroup and I do" is a policy critique. "Senator Clinton takes money from Wall Street fat cats" is a personal attack. I don't think this distinction is particularly hard to grasp.
Then please explain it.

I want an actual explanation for how consideration of financial relationships between candidates and politically active entities like banks is going to be banished to the realm of unsightly personal attacks and not be a proper thing to be concerned with.

Candidates should cut straight through to saying that they think she will protect banks and should never elaborate as to why, is that it?

It's a personal attack in the same sense that the pointing out her Iraq war vote was in '08.
Well voting for it is something she did personally, so clearly it is a personal attack to mention it!
 
Just because you consider it factual does not mean it's not a personal attack. She could point out that Bernie had creepy rape fantasies when he was younger, for instance. That is true and also a personal attack.



You're free to feel that way. It's still a personal attack. He's not attacking her position on whatever policy differences they have on campaign finance (which, again, is really dumb since it's the SC, not the president, that is in control of that issue) he's saying she is personally corrupt. Bernie is pretending his campaign is about issues and not negative. Just pointing our the hypocrisy.

Progressives who attack Hillary on that are doing the bidding of the Republicans.

it is a personally attack, i agree with you Dude
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Then please explain it.

I want an actual explanation for how consideration of financial relationships between candidates and politically active entities like banks is going to be banished to the realm of unsightly personal attacks and not be a proper thing to be concerned with.

Candidates should cut straight through to saying that they think she will protect banks and should never elaborate as to why, is that it?


Well voting for it is something she did personally, so clearly it is a personal attack to mention it!

You can be concerned with it all you want. Do you really need me to explain what ad hominem is? Let's just not hear any whining from the Bernie brigade if Clinton starts talking about his visits to the USSR or shitty job on the VA committee.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
A statement of fact isn't really an attack.

So if she said "Bernie Sanders took his honeymoon in the USSR" that wouldn't be an attack? It's absolutely 110% true and hits on policy in the same way him talking about speaking fees does, very tangentially and almost not at all.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
I just finished watching the debate. One thing stuck out with me is Hilary basically calling Bernie out on the whole insinuating of her being in the pockets of big banks. That may very well be due to the money involved, but he never is willing to say that out right on stage. It's insinuation and I think it's right for Hilary to call him out on it. Say it out loud like "I believe Hilary is in the pockets of Wall Street because she gets XYZ money from them." We will see how Hilary deals with that later. However, he won't say it and I'm personally getting tired of him always just yelling "WELL WALL STREET INFLUENCE IS EVERYWHERE !" and clearly indirectly saying that Hilary is in their pockets. If Bernie truly believes that, he should just say it and get it over with already. Without concrete proof, it feels like baseless personal attacks to me. Instead, he's doing this indirect message thing and letting his more passionate supporters going crazy about this and attacking people online and whatnot.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I just finished watching the debate. One thing stuck out with me is Hilary basically calling Bernie out on the whole insinuating of her being in the pockets of big banks. That may very well be due to the money involved, but he never is willing to say that out right on stage. It's insinuation and I think it's right for Hilary to call him out on it. Say it out loud like "I believe Hilary is in the pockets of Wall Street because she gets XYZ money from them." We will see how Hilary deals with that later. However, he won't say it and I'm personally getting tired of him always just yelling "WELL WALL STREET INFLUENCE IS EVERYWHERE !" and clearly indirectly saying that Hilary is in their pockets. If Bernie truly believes that, he should just say it and get it over with already.

Exactly. Don't pretend you aren't saying something you are, especially when all of your supporters are getting the message loud and clear.
 

Erevador

Member
So if she said "Bernie Sanders took his honeymoon in the USSR" that wouldn't be an attack? It's absolutely 110% true and hits on policy in the same way him talking about speaking fees does, very tangentially and almost not at all.
She would be free to say that. It would be up to the voters to decide whether or not they'd care. I think in this climate, they would not. In a post-Occupy Wall Street World, is it surprising that voters would feel negatively towards candidates they feel would be beholdened to Wall Street?
 

Prologue

Member
It's a circus. If we called every presidential candidate's integrity into question because they got paid for speaking by corporations then we wont have had a democracy. These purity tests dont belong in us democracy.

And yet we have a candidate thats running without those funding sources while others continue to take the money.
 
A statement of fact isn't really an attack.
Statement of fact isn't but drawing a conclusion from it is.

Fact: Hillary got paid by Goldman Sachs for a speech.
Nonfact: She is therefore corrupt.


Fact: Bernie went to soviet union for his honeymoon
Nonfact: Therefore he is a communist sympathizer
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I just finished watching the debate. One thing stuck out with me is Hilary basically calling Bernie out on the whole insinuating of her being in the pockets of big banks. That may very well be due to the money involved, but he never is willing to say that out right on stage. It's insinuation and I think it's right for Hilary to call him out on it. Say it out loud like "I believe Hilary is in the pockets of Wall Street because she gets XYZ money from them." We will see how Hilary deals with that later. However, he won't say it and I'm personally getting tired of him always just yelling "WELL WALL STREET INFLUENCE IS EVERYWHERE !" and clearly indirectly saying that Hilary is in their pockets. If Bernie truly believes that, he should just say it and get it over with already. Without concrete proof, it feels like baseless personal attacks to me.

That's because he's pretending he's running a 100% positive campaign, and judging by this thread he's somehow manage to convince many of his fans of that as well.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
She would be free to say that. It would be up to the voters to decide whether or not they'd care. I think in this climate, they would not. In a post-Occupy Wall Street World, is it surprising that voters would feel negatively towards candidates they feel would be beholdened to Wall Street?

But it's still an attack and would be construed as such, despite being related to the debate of the issues about as much as the speeches thing is.

All anyone wants is for everyone to be straight up with this: If you're going to attack your opponent then fucking admit it when called out on it, don't pretend you're running a squeaky clean campaign when you aren't.
 

Jenov

Member
Statement of fact isn't but drawing a conclusion from it is.

Fact: Hillary got paid by Goldman Sachs for a speech.
Nonfact: She is therefore corrupt.


Fact: Bernie went to soviet union for his honeymoon
Nonfact: Therefore he is a communist sympathizer

^^
 
You can be concerned with it all you want. Do you really need me to explain what ad hominem is? Let's just not hear any whining from the Bernie brigade if Clinton starts talking about his visits to the USSR or shitty job on the VA committee.
I want you to explain how pointing out a candidate's relationships with banks is an ad hominem.

As far as the "Bernie brigade" goes, I'm not in a "console warz"-esque mindset between candidates here like you are. If Bernie's vacations to the USSR suggest any sort of standing relationship with the Russian government that might influence him, it is not an ad hominem. Any criticism of Bernie's performance as an official in the VA is definitely not ad hominem.

Bear in mind this has nothing at all to do with your conclusion about what her relationship with banks signifies. Whether or not it is actually ends up being benign (which we can only make an educated guess at) has no bearing on whether it is an ad hominem.

So if she said "Bernie Sanders took his honeymoon in the USSR" that wouldn't be an attack? It's absolutely 110% true and hits on policy in the same way him talking about speaking fees does, very tangentially and almost not at all.
Vacationing somewhere where an extinct and currently irrelevant regime ruled, and having a current financial relationship with entities which expend immense effort and capital to influence candidates, are not the same thing.

I don't believe Clinton is in the pocket of big banks, but this attempt to completely dismiss the issue by labeling her relationships with these interests (which arose from her position as a politician) is pathetic. You guys won't be able to just yell "I heard about some Bernie Bros on Reddit, this is their doing!" when this comes up in the general election.

You would think after 2008 that her long time supporters would be a little more self aware about trying to portray non-personal attacks as personal, nevermind being sensitive about actual personal attacks.
 

Prologue

Member
And?

Vermin Supreme is also running without those funding sources. Doesn't mean he is going to become president.

He's essentially handicapped and is still out earning every candidate. Its a joke.

When you see someone setting a positive tone like that, you follow. You don't nod your head against big interest in politics while using your the hand to collect the dough. Its hypocritical, even more so when you have an candidate that is continuing to grow in popularity, who continues to say that things can be done differently and is showing that through his actions.

Thats why more and more people are questioning the integrity of Hillary. And it isn't going to go away. Answers like "Well, thats what they paid" are going to turn people off.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I want you to explain how pointing out a candidate's relationships with banks is an ad hominem.

As far as the "Bernie brigade" goes, I'm not in a "console warz"-esque mindset between candidates here like you are. If Bernie's vacations to the USSR suggest any sort of standing relationship with the Russian government that might influence him, it is not an ad hominem. Any criticism of Bernie's performance as an official in the VA is definitely not ad hominem.

Bear in mind this has nothing at all to do with your conclusion about what her relationship with banks signifies. Whether or not it is actually ends up being benign (which we can only make an educated guess at) has no bearing on whether it is an ad hominem.

A personal attack is an ad hominem whether or not you think it's true or salient. Ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their position. It does not matter if it is factual or whether you think it is justified. It is still an ad hominem.

"Clinton is bad because she took money from Goldman Sachs." That's the "argument" Bernie is making when he keeps pointing this out. Pointing out a fact about a person's behavior and hoping the audience draws a negative conclusion about their character is ad hominem. As someone who is not in candidate warz mode, I'd prefer not to have the Dem candidates calling each other corrupt. Unfortunately that's exactly what Bernie is doing and it's obviously very effective for his fanbase.
 

royalan

Member
A personal attack is an ad hominem whether or not you think it's true or salient. Ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their position. It does not matter if it is factual or whether you think it is justified. It is still an ad hominem.

"Clinton is bad because she took money from Goldman Sachs." That's the "argument" Bernie is making when he keeps pointing this out. Pointing out a fact about a person's behavior and hoping the audience draws a negative conclusion about their character is ad hominem. As someone who is not in candidate warz mode, I'd prefer not to have the Dem candidates calling each other corrupt. Unfortunately that's exactly what Bernie is doing and it's obviously very effective for his fanbase.

And now Hillary is getting criticized for "going negative" for having the nerve to call this out. I'd call it brilliant if it weren't so damn dirty.
 
A personal attack is an ad hominem whether or not you think it's true or salient. Ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their position. It does not matter if it is factual or whether you think it is justified. It is still an ad hominem.

"Clinton is bad because she took money from Goldman Sachs." That's the "argument" Bernie is making when he keeps pointing this out. Pointing out a fact about a person's behavior and hoping the audience draws a negative conclusion about their character is ad hominem. As someone who is not in candidate warz mode, I'd prefer not to have the Dem candidates calling each other corrupt. Unfortunately that's exactly what Bernie is doing and it's obviously very effective for his fanbase.
Saying "a personal attack is an ad hominem attack" is just sidestepping an actual explanation of why it is personal/ad hominem and just reiterating that you believe it is. It's not an ad hominem because there is a very strong argument that this could influence her policy decisions. No one can say that for a fact, but everything we think any candidate will do if they win is conjecture. Your "rape fantasies" example is an actual personal attack because it has nothing to do with what the candidate has or will do politically or what political ties they have, and is just an attempt to make them look "icky" on a purely personal level. It sidesteps politics entirely for an attack.


So if we can only criticize someone's position and not their "behavior", what does that mean? If someone flip-flops their position, we need to just accept their current position and ignore their "behavior" (past votes or statements to the contrary)? Do we treat campaign donations as financial consideration that matters, but paid speaking engagements where the candidate talks about how they will support banks politically is totally different? What about all the speaking engagements candidates do in exchange for campaign contributions rather than personal payment?

It's very easy to say "be nice and say nothing negative about any one else" to the other candidates when the one you want is in the lead. Clinton is the worst candidate I can recall when it comes to getting very dirty, very nasty in trying to take down rival candidates. These people are here to explain why you should nominate them over the others. If Bernie wants his "unbought" angle to sell he's going to have to show how that contrasts with other candidates.

If this "personal attack" gives you a dim view of Bernie Sanders, then by comparison Clinton is the motherfucking antichrist.
 
It's a circus. If we called every presidential candidate's integrity into question because they got paid for speaking by corporations then we wont have had a democracy. These purity tests dont belong in us democracy.

Again - it's not simply that she was paid for speaking. It's that she has received millions from them in money - including for this campaign - yet stated point-blank that it has never, ever influenced a single policy decision of hers. At the same time, she then publicly crusades against Citizens United.

You're free to feel that way. It's still a personal attack. He's not attacking her position on whatever policy differences they have on campaign finance (which, again, is really dumb since it's the SC, not the president, that is in control of that issue) he's saying she is personally corrupt. Bernie is pretending his campaign is about issues and not negative. Just pointing our the hypocrisy.

What? He is clearly attacking a policy difference. It is outright a huge point of differentiation between them and permeates through much of their message. Money in politics is huge, and has lead to policies in place to benefit those donors who have contributed - this relationship is deep-rooted in American politics. Hillary herself decries this relationship, such as claiming to be tough on Wall Street, being against Citizens United, and claiming herself she has never been influenced by them. The matter that she has received huge donations is a point of fact and has nothing to do with her person; additionally, the relationship between money and politics is again well-entrenched.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Saying "a personal attack is an ad hominem attack" is just sidestepping an actual explanation of why it is personal/ad hominem and just reiterating that you believe it is. It's not an ad hominem because there is a very strong argument that this could influence her policy decisions.

That is not what makes it not an ad hominem. I told you what an ad hominem is - an attack on the person rather than their argument - and you just ignore it. That you think character is relevant does not make attacks on character anything other than what they are. Pointing out someone is a rapist or a murderer is also an ad hominem, even if everyone agrees we don't want rapists or murderers to be president!



So if we can only criticize someone's position and not their "behavior", what does that mean? If someone flip-flops their position, we need to just accept their current position and ignore their "behavior" (past votes or statements to the contrary)? Do we treat campaign donations as financial consideration that matters, but paid speaking engagements where the candidate talks about how they will support banks politically is totally different? What about all the speaking engagements candidates do in exchange for campaign contributions rather than personal payment?

It's very easy to say "be nice and say nothing negative about any one else" to the other candidates when the one you want is in the lead. Clinton is the worst candidate I can recall when it comes to getting very dirty, very nasty in trying to take down rival candidates. These people are here to explain why you should nominate them over the others. If Bernie wants his "unbought" angle to sell he's going to have to show how that contrasts with other candidates.

If this "personal attack" gives you a dim view of Bernie Sanders, then by comparison Clinton is the motherfucking antichrist.

Sounds like you concede that Bernie, despite his claims to the contrary, is going negative and personal, but you think it's ok because that Hilliary is just the absolute worst and deserves whatever she gets. So I guess we're on the same page about what Bernie is doing after all.
 
That is not what makes it not an ad hominem. I told you what an ad hominem is - an attack on the person rather than their argument - and you just ignore it. That you think character is relevant does not make attacks on character anything other than what they are. Pointing out someone is a rapist or a murderer is also an ad hominem, even if everyone agrees we don't want rapists or murderers to be president!
The attack is that banks have financial influence on her. The business ties she has with them are what is submitted as evidence to this. As I HAVE ALREADY SAID, I do not believe she is in the pockets of big banks, but the connection is relevant to evaluating our expectations for her policy decisions. That is why I don't consider it ad hominem. I don't think you can criticize any candidate without an element that you, Dude Abides, would consider personal. A person's actions always come into it.

Sounds like you concede that Bernie, despite his claims to the contrary, is going negative and personal, but you think it's ok because that Hilliary is just the absolute worst and deserves whatever she gets. So I guess we're on the same page about what Bernie is doing after all.
if you were really this stupid no one would bother responding to you. You could not be reading this more dishonestly. First I never said Bernie wasn't being negative (is there any candidate ever who hasn't been?). Second, I only described Clinton's "purity" in relation to Sanders, not stating a personal overall appraisal about her. I will happily vote for her if she gets the nomination. But any of you feigning this righteous indignation about Bernie actually going after a rival candidate, should stay a billion miles away from Clinton for the sake of ideological consistency.
 
It's important to point out that ad hominem attacks are not always fallacious. It's frequently associated with faulty reasoning, and I suppose that's the cause for the hang up right now. This is the case when it's used as an answer to a position's logic. However, it doesn't suffer from this pitfall if there are (legitimate) questions concerning credibility.
 
A personal attack is an ad hominem whether or not you think it's true or salient. Ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their position. It does not matter if it is factual or whether you think it is justified. It is still an ad hominem.

"Clinton is bad because she took money from Goldman Sachs." That's the "argument" Bernie is making when he keeps pointing this out. Pointing out a fact about a person's behavior and hoping the audience draws a negative conclusion about their character is ad hominem. As someone who is not in candidate warz mode, I'd prefer not to have the Dem candidates calling each other corrupt. Unfortunately that's exactly what Bernie is doing and it's obviously very effective for his fanbase.

But when your whole campaign is based on fighting big banks, and fighting the corrupt system that caters to the rich; how is pointing out that your opponent still works within the confines of said system irrelevant? That's valid criticism - especially if you want to change things!

You can draw your own conclusions from what Hillary's doing, but in the end - She'll have to be the one to address the issue. You can't proclaim yourself to be against Wall Street but still take their money, it makes you look bad.
 
I also think it's fair not to hold the "Bernie bros" of Reddit against Sanders in the same way that I don't hold the origin of the entire birther conspiracy from Clinton's supporters against her. No matter which candidate was the most popular on Reddit, we would end up with the "___ bros" because Reddit is an irredeemable shithole.

But it's amazing how things can change in 8 years, regarding throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's important to point out that ad hominem attacks are not always fallacious. It's frequently associated with faulty reasoning, and I suppose that's the cause for the hang up right now. This is the case when it's used as an answer to a position's logic. However, it doesn't suffer from this pitfall if there are (legitimate) questions concerning credibility.
Thank you, this is probably part of my own disconnect. I'll just stick to pointing out what a ludicrous position it is to mark her bank relationships as "off limits" by slapping the ad hominem label on this particular point vs any number of others. All of a sudden everyone conveniently gets very stupid about whether we should take seriously and closely examine the financial ties between politicians and banks, as if America was just founded yesterday and we have no history to work off of.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
But when your whole campaign is based on fighting big banks, and fighting the corrupt system that caters to the rich; how is pointing out that your opponent still works within the confines of said system irrelevant? That's valid criticism - especially if you want to change things!

You can draw your own conclusions from what Hillary's doing, but in the end - She'll have to be the one to address the issue. You can't proclaim yourself to be against Wall Street but still take their money, it makes you look bad.

Yes, but if you're going to make the inference that your opponent is corrupt then you should just come out and say it and not hide behind rhetoric. They can talk about wall street reform without needing to go into attacks like that, there's room between their stances on the issue to do so.
 

JABEE

Member
Statement of fact isn't but drawing a conclusion from it is.

Fact: Hillary got paid by Goldman Sachs for a speech.
Nonfact: She is therefore corrupt.


Fact: Bernie went to soviet union for his honeymoon
Nonfact: Therefore he is a communist sympathizer

Did the Soviet government pay for that Honeymoon? I believe that would be a closer analogy.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
The attack is that banks have financial influence on her. The business ties she has with them are what is submitted as evidence to this. As I HAVE ALREADY SAID, I do not believe she is in the pockets of big banks, but the connection is relevant to evaluating our expectations for her policy decisions. That is why I don't consider it ad hominem. I don't think you can criticize any candidate without an element that you, Dude Abides, would consider personal. A person's actions always come into it.

I already gave you an example of a criticism that would not be personal. If you don't want to make the effort to read there's no reason for me to engage in the exercise again.

if you were really this stupid no one would bother responding to you. You could not be reading this more dishonestly. First I never said Bernie wasn't being negative (is there any candidate ever who hasn't been?). Second, I only described Clinton's "purity" in relation to Sanders, not stating a personal overall appraisal about her. I will happily vote for her if she gets the nomination. But any of you feigning this righteous indignation about Bernie actually going after a rival candidate, should stay a billion miles away from Clinton for the sake of ideological consistency.

Now people who disagree with you must be stupid. I suppose by your bizarre conception of personal attacks that isn't one either. I said personal and negative, not just negative. And you didn't say Clinton was dirty only as compared to Saint Bernie of Burlington, you said "Clinton is the worst candidate I can recall when it comes to getting very dirty, very nasty in trying to take down rival candidates." If you can't be bothered to comprehend other people's posts you could at least do yourself the favor of understanding your own.
 
I already gave you an example of a criticism that would not be personal. If you don't want to make the effort to read there's no reason for me to engage in the exercise again.



Now people who disagree with you must be stupid. I suppose by your bizarre conception of personal attacks that isn't one either. I said personal and negative, not just negative. And you didn't say Clinton was dirty only as compared to Saint Bernie of Burlington, you said "Clinton is the worst candidate I can recall when it comes to getting very dirty, very nasty in trying to take down rival candidates." If you can't be bothered to comprehend other people's posts you could at least do yourself the favor of understanding your own.
I said you were not stupid enough to read my post the way you did, not not stupid enough to disagree with me. But you knew that. And since explaining to you once didn't stick, I'll say it again: she is the worst when it comes to underhanded attacks in an election, even if I personally would still support her if it came down to it. That was brought up for comparison in response to poopoooing Sanders over getting "personal" vs Clinton. But you had gone on to claim that I consider her the most horrible candidate ever in a general sense and just want to see her suffer (which I guess is supposed to explain how I could possibly not agree with you). I even said I didn't believe she was in the pocket of banks because of these speaking engagement, before you started posting this nonsense. You know you've twisted my posts, you know you're a bald-faced liar, and I am done with this conversation.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I said you were not stupid enough to read my post the way you did, not not stupid enough to disagree with me. But you knew that. And since explaining to you once didn't stick, I'll say it again: she is the worst when it comes to underhanded attacks in an election, even if I personally would still support her if it came down to it. That was brought up for comparison in response to poopoooing Sanders over getting "personal" vs Clinton. But you had gone on to claim that I consider her the most horrible candidate ever in a general sense and just want to see her suffer (which I guess is supposed to explain how I could possibly not agree with you). I even said I didn't believe she was in the pocket of banks because of these speaking engagement, before you started posting this nonsense. You know you've twisted my posts, you know you're a bald-faced liar, and I am done with this conversation.

Yes, yes, everyone who disagrees with LaserBuddha is either lying or stupid or both. *slams door and stomps away, tucking shirt in*
 

2AdEPT

Member
Statement of fact isn't but drawing a conclusion from it is.

Fact: Hillary got paid by Goldman Sachs for a speech.
Nonfact: She is therefore corrupt.


Fact: Bernie went to soviet union for his honeymoon
Nonfact: Therefore he is a communist sympathizer

FAct: there is zero reason to do a "speech" other than to create a supposedly "legitimate" way to give money to the speaker. How naive do people have to be to see that these speeches aren't completely bogus? Hillary CLinton has nothing to say that would help the knowledge or efficiency of the minions at a banking firm? COme on lets get real here, to call this process a conspiracy theory is EXACTLY buying in to the straw man set up by the right wing think tanks. This is not conspiratorial it is simple fact! Think tanks and propaganda machines exist people...this is reality...its not all that hard to get to the bottom of whats going on but you best do at least that much before claiming you think you know how to move forward.

Some have stated the bottom line after which there is no need to talk about funding. Bernie and Trump are the only self funded options on the ballot, although I doubt Trumps speeches, which another poster proudly noted were 5 times as expensive as HIllaries, have content worth a dime. You are incredibly naive if you think they wont publiscize the fact they are self funded and Bernie is the only one with the electorate paying the bill $30 a shot, and JUSTIFIED to call out the others for obvious bribery. Its simply amazing people actually defend this lobbying aspect of politics i.e. "this is how we do it in America, [high five]." Bribery is everywhere, but just quoting what I am hearing here....most sycophants like to keep it quiet. As others have pointed out its not just speeches, its jobs and powerful positions after politics...none of which is supposed to be public information? Oooh some billionaire's feelings are going to be hurt if we even insinuate they are a psychopath...oooooooohhhh.

A psychopath is psychopath people ...........time to start getting literate on how to tell who is who...I actually do it for a living but here is a lay persons book to get you started.:

Snakes in Suits

For the video only crowd:
 

TarNaru33

Banned
This thread is pathetic... people are now trying to say its a personal attack? Are these same people unaware of money in politics? Are we now going to dismiss the amount of money put into lobbying because reasons, when we know it has a direct influence on our politicians favor of certain companies?

Trying to say this is an area people can not critique of Clinton, leads to a slippery slope of saying the same for all forms of government despite how impartial it should be.

Both of these candidates (and even Obama) ran with the knowledge that the campaign finance system needs to be changed. It is now not even about policy, it is about who has the money to run a campaign thanks to big business's contribution. This is thanks to U.S public tendency of not being fully educated on all candidates because of exposure (which one gets by running ads which cost money).
 

Arkeband

Banned
I'm actually shocked that Hillary supporters aren't even mildly concerned with the content of the speeches she gave to the institutions that single-handedly destroyed our economy - which Democrats then bailed out with no strings attached.

Hillary said she would have no problems releasing those transcripts - so... let's hear them?
 

mAcOdIn

Member
I'm actually shocked that Hillary supporters aren't even mildly concerned with the content of the speeches she gave to the institutions that single-handedly destroyed our economy - which Democrats then bailed out with no strings attached.

Hillary said she would have no problems releasing those transcripts - so... let's hear them?
Why would Hillary, or any politician for that matter, give some kind of damning speech to a room full of employees? That shit'd be behind doors with specific people not at a venue with tons of people. Politicians may be shameless but they're generally not fucking stupid. I'm willing to bet the speeches themselves were totally acceptable.

And again, it's not just about outright bribery, we're talking influence. Influence is more nuanced and much harder to prove but it's probably more insidious.

Like, I understand the bailouts on a fundamental level, and to a degree I respect the decision overall. It's a tough sell to tell people to brace for a rough ride and watch the economy go to shit because some people fucked up, I get them wanting to minimize that. But if the influence of big business wasn't there do you think these companies would have gotten such a good deal? There's a ton of ways they could have handled the bailouts and they picked pretty much the way that benefitted those in power at those companies the most. Do you think it would have gone that way if most people in the government didn't have relationships with these people, weren't financially dependant on them? This is about psychology. I don't believe most who worked on the bailouts were outright bribed by the financial sector with specific donations in exchange for a bailout. Maybe a few key people were, maybe they weren't. But I do believe that almost everyone already relying on them financially and having already established relationships with many of them influenced their decision. And this type of influence is seen often, why is it that many times popular opinion loses to money'd interests? If our politicians were truly beholden to the people at large you'd think they'd happily move with the masses and yet that's not true is it? There are so many "contentious" issues like gun control or health care where there actually is a public opinion majority that gets fucking ignored. Now do you believe that the NRA is outright bribing politicians specifically to block new gun laws or is it more likely that their constant communication and money is subconsciously affecting the politicians? I actually believe the latter. I don't think that the majority of Congress is outright corrupt to the point they'd take de facto bribes. But I do think they're people, and when the people keeping them in office send people to discuss shit I think they subconsciously assign more weight to that than a letter they get from a constituent.

Simplest way to look at it is this: Say you hang out with a group of friends and they're all nice enough people and then a stranger comes up and asks for something that'd harm them all, would you harm your friends for this stranger? If someone accused your friends of a crime would you believe your friends first or the stranger?

Something I find funny is this: We're on a gaming forum, right? When game journalists win a prize at a publisher event a lot of people call foul, integrity in journalism they cry! When a person who loves Tomb Raider goes gaga over the Tomb Raider Reboot and then goes to work at Square Enix again everyone cries foul. When publishers fly journalists to a fancy review event and does cool stuff people wonder how they can remain objective. But when Hillary Clinton gets shit worth way more than any games journalist has ever received people handwave it away. I wish we'd hold our politicians to the same standard we hold our fucking games journalists to.
 
I'm actually shocked that Hillary supporters aren't even mildly concerned with the content of the speeches she gave to the institutions that single-handedly destroyed our economy - which Democrats then bailed out with no strings attached.

Hillary said she would have no problems releasing those transcripts - so... let's hear them?

Why should anyone care about the content of a talk given to the employees of an institution? Big companies often have famous people come in to give morale boosting talks.

It's not like she was up there discussing her secret plans to give them total world power or some such nonsense. That wouldn't be given in a public speech at a company.

It would almost certainly just a morale boosting speech she got paid to say. One of several hundred, likely exactly the same speech as the other hundred, just slightly tweaked to fit the audience. Some cute stories of Bill being silly, or her daughter and how hard it was being a mom and politician at the same time, and other filler like that.

There's no content to this line of attack. It just makes Bernie look petty and desperate and it's the sort of attacks that make me not really care for him. It's a Tea Party-esque attack and it's kind of sad he feels he (or his supporters) needs to stoop that that level.

Why should Hillary release a benign harmless speech she might not even have a transcript that she can release, just so it can be ripped apart and taken horribly out of context? It's a political trap, and Hillary shouldn't and won't fall for it. She's too good of a politician to do that.
 

SamVimes

Member
I don't know how long this conversation can go in circles:
side a: there's nothing wrong with this
side b: here's what's wrong with this

ad infinitum
 

Roronoa95

Member
Guys, please... when someone receives shit tons of money from "x" entity or corporation, don't think this is for free or philantropy.

Especially when you receive financial support for your political campaign, at some point when you have succeded, they'll expect you to return the favor.

And that's the main problem here because the interest of a coporation can go against the interest of everyone. Their money is the best lever on politician for having their interest secured.

When you see Hillary funding sources, you can guess she will have some favors to return. Stating the opposite is undoubtedly naive.
 
I'm actually shocked that Hillary supporters aren't even mildly concerned with the content of the speeches she gave to the institutions that single-handedly destroyed our economy - which Democrats then bailed out with no strings attached.

Hillary said she would have no problems releasing those transcripts - so... let's hear them?
I'm shocked that liberals aren't hesitating to use right-wing talking points to attack Hillary Clinton in this primary. Hope y'all come around when the real election begins.
 
Guys, please... when someone receives shit tons of money from "x" entity or corporation, don't think this is for free or philantropy.

Especially when you receive financial support for your political campaign, at some point when you have succeded, they'll expect you to return the favor.

And that's the main problem here because the interest of a coporation can go against the interest of everyone. Their money is the best lever on politician for having their interest secured.

When you see Hillary funding sources, you can guess she will have some favors to return. Stating the opposite is undoubtedly naive.
So why is Karl Rove and wall street funding attacks against her when she's oh so chummy with the big banks? I mean if I was a big banking hedge fund manager, I would make sure my "bought" candidate wins the horse race, no?
 
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