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[JesseZao]

Income Tax?

He must be implying that these shady schemers found a way to conduct cash sales through the tubes.

 

[water_wendi]

All them newfangled automobeelz transportin' goods. Now us horse riders are out of a job

That example is not of an industry that can just be changed over 1:1 (going from horse to car you still need drivers and mechanics instead of drivers and horsekeepers). The expressed purpose of this model is to lower overhead. It is shortsighted in the extreme. You slash the amount of overhead to offer goods slightly lower which puts people out of a job. Since people are out of a job they cannot afford your slightly lower goods any longer. It is not healthy.

 

[The Faceless Master]

California's not really a great example. They're so fucked up no amount of online sales tax will save them. And no, people haven't been required to pay it, that's the entire point.

this would probably hurt california as many internet businesses are based there and people from other states would be buying from them less often...

 

[Gatekeeper]

Speaking as a small business owner with a Brick-and-mortar storefront AND an internet presence both based in a state without sales tax, this bill would force me out of business. I don't have the time to manage tens of thousands different sales tax amounts, nor do I have the money to hire someone to do it for me. State tax amounts would need to be drastically streamlined across the country to give small businesses like mine a chance to keep up.

If you don't have a problem paying the tax, maybe you should just be paying the use tax your state probably has on the books rather than supporting convoluted legislation.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

Yeah, I'm for this tax. I hope to open my own business someday and competing with big as$ discount stores like Walmart and Target is going to be tough enough. I don't want to compete with Amazon or other online stores where you don't have to pay taxes.

 

[water_wendi]

so, efficiency is bad? is Best Buy about to fail?

Things arent exactly looking rosy for Best Buy. It was way down a couple years ago but rose a couple percent last year. That sounds like great news but when you factor in that they are one of the last games in town thats not good. Thats like saying only Taco Bell is left after all the fast food joints went under and Taco Bell is barely scraping by. A rise of 1-2% is not good when all the competition is out of business.

 

[JesseZao]

That example is not of an industry that can just be changed over 1:1 (going from horse to car you still need drivers and mechanics instead of drivers and horsekeepers). The expressed purpose of this model is to lower overhead. It is shortsighted in the extreme. You slash the amount of overhead to offer goods slightly lower which puts people out of a job. Since people are out of a job they cannot afford your slightly lower goods any longer. It is not healthy.

Think about the bigger picture. Like others have said, progress is a good thing and Circuit City died because it was a horrible company. I suppose you wouldn't think about using Netflix then, since Blockbuster costs more money to run. You also don't shop at a supermarket or Walmart. Too bad we invented computers, the assembly line, robotics...etc, etc, ad naseum.

 

[SlipperySlope]

this would probably hurt california as many internet businesses are based there and people from other states would be buying from them less often...

The industry would move out of state. It's starting to happen en' mass. My company is moving to Nevada. California is fucked, and will be as long as they keep the budget that high.

 

[knitoe]

We got into this mess because we continue spend more than we take in. It would be great if revenue, from new tax and so on, would be use to only make up for the shortfall, but you once money comes flying in they are going to find something else to spend on.

 

[JesseZao]

We got into this mess because we continue spend more than we take in. It would be great if revenue, from new tax and so on, would be use to only make up for the shortfall, but you once money comes flying in they are going to find something else to spend on.

Earmarks spur growth! We need them!

 

[water_wendi]

Think about the bigger picture. Like others have said, progress is a good thing and Circuit City died because it was a horrible company. I suppose you wouldn't think about using Netflix then, since Blockbuster costs more money to run. You also don't shop at a supermarket or Walmart. Too bad we invented computers, the assembly line, robotics...etc, etc, ad naseum.

Again you need to look at the bigger picture. Netflix has 1,000 employees. Blockbuster had 40,000 US employees (another 20,000 worldwide). There is a consequence to cheaper goods. Like ive said, this model is unsustainable.

 

[loosus]

Increased efficiency is a good thing. It leads to lower prices. If we didn't have increased efficiency, we'd all be working on the farms like our grandparents did. And be poor as dirt.

I'm sorry, but I'll never follow the increased productivity is bad idea.

Lower prices mean jack shit if you have masses of unemployed who can't buy them.

 

[JesseZao]

Again you need to look at the bigger picture. Netflix has 1,000 employees. Blockbuster had 40,000 US employees (another 20,000 worldwide). There is a consequence to cheaper goods. Like ive said, this model is unsustainable.

Just confirming that you want bloated out-dated industries to remain, thanks.

 

[water_wendi]

Just confirming that you want bloated out-dated industries to remain, thanks.

This kind of thought is very shortsighted. Jobs just dont make themselves out of thin air. This is not a 1:1 ratio of change but 40:1 change. It is not healthy. It never will be healthy.

 

[loosus]

Just confirming that you want bloated out-dated industries to remain, thanks.

So you think that businesses made of people are "bloated and outdated?" Nice. That's a new one.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Things arent exactly looking rosy for Best Buy. It was way down a couple years ago but rose a couple percent last year. That sounds like great news but when you factor in that they are one of the last games in town thats not good. Thats like saying only Taco Bell is left after all the fast food joints went under and Taco Bell is barely scraping by. A rise of 1-2% is not good when all the competition is out of business.

But the competition didn't go out of business. The competition upgraded. Best Buy didn't. If Best Buy fails it is their own fault.

Remember: A while ago, 90% of all Americans were farm workers. Are you going to say that upgrades in farm technology, which put MILLIONS of farmers out of work, was a bad thing?

 

[loosus]

Remember: A while ago, 90% of all Americans were farm workers. Are you going to say that upgrades in farm technology, which put MILLIONS of farmers out of work, was a bad thing?

If they had not found factory jobs thereafter? Absolutely.

Here's the problem now: we're now in stage three, where the factory jobs are disappearing and there's nothing to fill the gap.

Is that good or bad?

 

[Pctx]

Just confirming that you want bloated out-dated industries to remain, thanks.

:lol

Just confirming that you actually think jobs create themselves for your own self-amusement. Thanks.

Spoiler

I really hope that was a joke post for your sake. :lol

 

[water_wendi]

If they had not found factory jobs thereafter? Absolutely.

Here's the problem now: we're now in stage three, where the factory jobs are disappearing and there's nothing to fill the gap.

Is that good or bad?

This is stage four. Factory jobs are gone. Now retail service jobs are going. What is left?

 

[JesseZao]

So you think that businesses made of people are "bloated and outdated?" Nice. That's a new one.

You act like every business we have now has always existed. Where did those people work before that company existed? Furthermore, those companies should never fall if they aren't run well?

thetimestheyareachangin.mp3

Spoiler

",thanks" was put there to help spot it

 

[Mabef]

[explanations]

Thanks.

I don't see anything wrong with this tax. It only hurts online retailers in that it lowers them to the same playing field as brick-and-mortar stores. Whether or not consumers should be taxed rather than producers, and whether or not the government will spend the money wisely are two related issues, but not immediately relevant. We can't wait to have a perfect tax system before implementing this. It will happen eventually, and in and of itself there isn't anything wrong with the tax.

Just my two cents, of course.

 

[loosus]

You act like every business we have now has always existed. Where did those people work before that company existed? Furthermore, those companies should never fall if they aren't run well?

thetimestheyareachangin.mp3

Spoiler

",thanks" was put there to help spot it

Oh, okay. Well, you tell 17% of the United States where they should go work, and I'm sure they'll get right on that.

 

[JesseZao]

Oh, okay. Well, you tell 17% of the United States where they should go work, and I'm sure they'll get right on that.

Start your own business. Go back to school. Follow your dreams. There are many things you can do. If you can't find a job where you live, move somewhere else.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Again you need to look at the bigger picture. Netflix has 1,000 employees. Blockbuster had 40,000 US employees (another 20,000 worldwide). There is a consequence to cheaper goods. Like ive said, this model is unsustainable.

This is the reason governments are in the red. Thinking like this. We can't decrease jobs! ... why you ask? Because it will put people out of a job! What? Their jobs are obsolete and not needed? Who cares, they need a job!

If you give the government two options:
1) Spend 10K on an upgrade and put a worker out of work
2) Keep the worker, at a cost of 40K a year.

They'll always choose option #2. Governments just aren't run like businesses and if they keep this up, are destined to fail.

 

[water_wendi]

You act like every business we have now has always existed. Where did those people work before that company existed? Furthermore, those companies should never fall if they aren't run well?

thetimestheyareachangin.mp3

Spoiler

",thanks" was put there to help spot it

There was something to take the place.. whether it was factory or retail service or technical service. Factory and tech jobs are outsourced now. Service jobs are collapsing. People are defaulting on their mortgages and credit because they are laid off and cannot pay the bills. Getting a full-time job nowadays is a near impossibility. Minimum wage at less than 30 hours weekly is the norm. And the scary part is we havent even hit the worst of it.

All of this ties into states going bankrupt. When there are no business to tax, when huge numbers of people are unemployed and dont buy things to be taxed.. all of this plays off each other. These things affect the other.

 

[water_wendi]

Start your own business. Go back to school. Follow your dreams. There are many things you can do. If you can't find a job where you live, move somewhere else.

You are either a troll or out of your fucking mind.

 

[JesseZao]

There was something to take the place.. whether it was factory or retail service or technical service. Factory and tech jobs are outsourced now. Service jobs are collapsing. People are defaulting on their mortgages and credit because they are laid off and cannot pay the bills. Getting a full-time job nowadays is a near impossibility. Minimum wage at less than 30 hours weekly is the norm. And the scary part is we havent even hit the worst of it.

All of this ties into states going bankrupt. When there are no business to tax, when huge numbers of people are unemployed and dont buy things to be taxed.. all of this plays off each other. These things affect the other.

Ironic that outsourcing happened to avoid taxes >_<. Also, maybe every state should pass a law that it has to have a balanced budget every year. Then they would make the cuts needed to keep from falling down the slippery slope.

 

[loosus]

Start your own business. Go back to school. Follow your dreams. There are many things you can do. If you can't find a job where you live, move somewhere else.

Uh, this only works to a point.

Even if 25,000 people took your advice right now and succeeded, do you know how much it would help? Almost none. The jobs created as a result would be minuscule in the United States, as the up-scale and factory work would be -- drum roll -- performed in another country and shipped here.

Your ideas, while incredible in theory, do not stand the test of reality and are, at best, naive.

 

[JesseZao]

I guess we just need a monthly Census.

 

[blame space]

This is the reason governments are in the red. Thinking like this. We can't decrease jobs! ... why you ask? Because it will put people out of a job! What? Their jobs are obsolete and not needed? Who cares, they need a job!

If you give the government two options:
1) Spend 10K on an upgrade and put a worker out of work
2) Keep the worker, at a cost of 40K a year.

They'll always choose option #2. Governments just aren't run like businesses and if they keep this up, are destined to fail.

we can't live in a country where low-paying jobs are simply rendered obsolete at the helm of The Postal Service.

 

[SlipperySlope]

If they had not found factory jobs thereafter? Absolutely.

Here's the problem now: we're now in stage three, where the factory jobs are disappearing and there's nothing to fill the gap.

Is that good or bad?

You forget one important thing. The factory jobs paid much more than their farm jobs. Every shift we've had has resulted in more pay and less back breaking work.

And to answer your question, we're moving to a service based model. The factory workers will need to learn a new profession. Like has happened with many industries in the past.

Out with the old. In with the new. It's the 21st century. To achieve true progress you have to let some things go.

 

[loosus]

I guess we just need a monthly Census.

Do you think people who can't think up new ideas or who generally just aren't the brightest deserve to die?

And to answer your question, we're moving to a service based model. The factory workers will need to learn a new profession. Like has happened with many industries in the past.

Out with the old. In with the new. It's the 21st century. To achieve true progress you have to let some things go.

And what are we servicing again?

 

[S1lent]

Also, maybe every state should pass a law that it has to have a balanced budget every year. Then they would make the cuts needed to keep from falling down the slippery slope.

Almost all states already have laws on the books requiring a balanced budget.

 

[JesseZao]

Do you think people who can't think up new ideas or who generally just aren't the brightest deserve to die?

Are you complaining about the jobs I just suggested? I'm trying to bring it all full-circle to where the internet tax will solve all these problems it seems to have caused. I can't tell how close I am to accomplishing this, but I can't see the origin yet.

 

[kevm3]

People can't go back to school because it's so expensive and so is starting a business. After a while, I can almost see the US regressing as in either the city starts getting really chaotic... moreso than they already are now or we may see a movement back towards more rural style living where people learn to become more and more self sufficient (poorer folks stuck in the city will most likely get the former, while people who can move out will probably consider the latter).

 

[SlipperySlope]

we can't live in a country where low-paying jobs are simply rendered obsolete at the helm of The Postal Service.

The destruction of low paying jobs via obsolescence has happened many times in history. It has always resulted in those workers finding better jobs.

Question. Why do you want to keep those shitty low paying jobs? So people can work harder for less money?

 

[water_wendi]

Ironic that outsourcing happened to avoid taxes >_<.

Oh yea.. it was just because of taxes. im sure they kept the wages for the workers the same.

 

[loosus]

The destruction of low paying jobs via obsolescence has happened many times in history. It has always resulted in those workers finding better jobs.

And it's just going to keep happening indefinitely, right? Everybody can be a banker, doctor, or nurse, right?

 

[ampere]

Gross, me no like D:
Why don't they squander less of the taxes we already pay.

 

[harriet the spy]

Start your own business. Go back to school. Follow your dreams. There are many things you can do. If you can't find a job where you live, move somewhere else.

Let me guess. You live on your parents' money.

 

[water_wendi]

The destruction of low paying jobs via obsolescence has happened many times in history. It has always resulted in those workers finding better jobs.

Okay. So where are these better paying jobs that 14.6 million people can find?

Question. Why do you want to keep those shitty low paying jobs? So people can work harder for less money?

Low paying job is better than no job.

 

[loosus]

Follow your dreams! That's all it takes! Even if you have no good original ideas, it doesn't matter! Go back to college! Study for...something!

 

[JesseZao]

People can't go back to school because it's so expensive and so is starting a business. After a while, I can almost see the US regressing as in either the city starts getting really chaotic... moreso than they already are now or we may see a movement back towards more rural style living where people learn to become more and more self sufficient (poorer folks stuck in the city will most likely get the former, while people who can move out will probably consider the latter).

I realize this and most of the suggestions were half-jesting, but people need to make a good effort to better themselves. Saying a person was born to do X factory job and when X factory goes under, they have no where to work, isn't giving the person much credit.

Anecdote: I have a few different entrepreneur friends who found a void and ran with their business to fill it. Both of the businesses are now flourishing and make me envious of their successes from starting with nothing.

Follow your dreams! That's all it takes! Even if you have no good original ideas, it doesn't matter! Go back to college! Study for...something!

Now you're catching on!

Let me guess. You live on your parents' money.

Ooooh, stirke one!

Spoiler

I'll feed you. I support my wife and son.

 

[SlipperySlope]

People can't go back to school because it's so expensive and so is starting a business. After a while, I can almost see the US regressing as in either the city starts getting really chaotic... moreso than they already are now or we may see a movement back towards more rural style living where people learn to become more and more self sufficient (poorer folks stuck in the city will most likely get the former, while people who can move out will probably consider the latter).

In many cases, you don't really need to go to school to learn a new profession. You'd be surprised by how many programmers never took computer science.

Designers don't really need schooling.

At my work, only about half finished their degrees.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Again you need to look at the bigger picture. Netflix has 1,000 employees. Blockbuster had 40,000 US employees (another 20,000 worldwide). There is a consequence to cheaper goods. Like ive said, this model is unsustainable.

Netflix found a better business model to the video rental business. Blockbuster adapted poorly, and was also victim to lawsuits. Add in the success of Redbox and Blockbuster's track record of poor customer service, and maybe, just maybe, it was simply time for a paradigm shift in that industry. Blockbuster lost revenue for a number of reasons, not solely because an internet company offered the same service for less.

The idea that we're headed for a situation where only tiny companies will be providing services that no one can afford anyway is pessimistic in the extreme.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

What its the feasibility of instituting programs to mitigate the consequences of outsourcing of the American workforce? Tax incentives for companies that have a certain percentage of its workforce based in the US? Severe penalties for those that don't? Outsourcing is indeed a massive and crippling problem.

 

[zoku88]

Lol are you suggesting that local governments don't have enough money to provide basic services? :lol that's rich.

Is education a basic service?

 

[loosus]

I realize this and most of the suggestions were half-jesting, but people need to make a good effort to better themselves. Saying a person was born to do X factory job and when X factory goes under, they have no where to work, isn't giving the person much credit.

Anecdote: I have a few different entrepreneur friends who found a void and ran with their business to fill it. Both of the businesses are now flourishing and make me envious of their successes from starting with nothing.

Where I work, I'm really good friends with a maintenance guy. He cleans floors, buffs floors, mops floors, cleans toilets, replaces lightbulbs, and arranges furniture. He is not smart -- period. He physically does not have the mental wherewithal to do much of anything else. He has trouble balancing his own checkbook.

Once a robot inevitably replaces him, do you think he should die?

The idea that we're headed for a situation where only tiny companies will be providing services that no one can afford anyway is pessimistic in the extreme.

Headed there? We're practically there now. I'm not sure what other evidence you need.

 

[SlipperySlope]

And it's just going to keep happening indefinitely, right? Everybody can be a banker, doctor, or nurse, right?

Look at the list of the types of service jobs out there. There's something on the list they can do.

 

[loosus]

Look at the list of the types of service jobs out there. There's something on the list they can do.

Where the fuck are all these service jobs at?