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[~Devil Trigger~]

How many users here have played it? Not many I'd say. They are making a big fuss from just watching videos. Another part of it is the herd mentality of users here trying to fit in.

WTF is wrong with That??

for Most gamers, for most people here, thats what we have to go by. That and Previews that people who have ACTUALLY played the game writes. Publishers/Studios show use media(footage n screenshots) and do previews because they want use to see and get excited for what they are working on, if someone or a couple of people, or Alot of people are not impressed DONT BITCH about it, put out a demo or something.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Where can I listen to this podcast?

 

[PuppetMaster]

Where can I listen to this podcast?

Read the OP. You non OP reader!

 

[Y2Kev]

So if you can't criticize it because you haven't played it, can you be for it or is that not okay too?

It sounds like you're not really allowed to have any opinion until you've played it. But of course Denis only attacked those who were rabidly against.

 

[Kinitari]

So if you can't criticize it because you haven't played it, can you be for it or is that not okay too?

It sounds like you're not really allowed to have any opinion until you've played it. But of course Denis only attacked those who were rabidly against.

I kind of feel like that's the elephant in the room. No one is mentioning it - there are just as many (if not MORE) people who were(are) looking forward to Too Human based off of nothing but Screens/Videos/Previews and PR talk - but something tells me DD doesn't feel the same way about those people as he does about the people who feel the opposite.

And going off of what he's saying when it comes to internet and society, he feels like the internet (I'm paraphrasing) is too mean and hurts peoples feelings, and everyone should try being nicer.

 

[rollingstart]

I kind of feel like that's the elephant in the room. No one is mentioning it - there are just as many (if not MORE) people who were(are) looking forward to Too Human based off of nothing but Screens/Videos/Previews and PR talk - but something tells me DD doesn't feel the same way about those people as he does about the people who feel the opposite.

Exactly. I guess it is similar to how he felt about previews on the old EGM Live. No problem with Shane's positive preview, but when Mark made a bad comment about a poor build of Too Human that even Dyack acknowledged was crap, it was bad and previews were meaningless and should be gone.

But then again, Dyack keeps claiming that Too Human is a great game because he has played it, I guess we should all listen to his totally objective opinion on it. Just avoid all the opinions that are saying otherwise, they are all slanted and influenced by this forum and system bias and all that stuff.

 

[{Mike}]

Just release the game so we can judge it. I don't care about the drama.

 

[AmericanNinja]

Where can I listen to this podcast?

http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3149993:D


Just listened to the podcast. My opinion is if Dennis would put as much time and energy in making games as he does in trying to change the gaming forums/industry Too Human could be a great game. The moral of the story? Just make your game to the best of your ability Dennis and don't worry about what other people think. There will always be people the do not like certain games etc.... Just my observation.

 

[Twig]

Just release the game so we can judge it. I don't care about the drama.

Aw, but it's so much fun!

 

[KTallguy]

I think Denis' reaction is totally understandable, given that he's spent so much time and energy on this game.

But sometimes, you just have to let it go.
Kind of like Blizzard and Starcraft Ghost.
Sometimes its really hard to make your pet project come into fruition as amazing as it is in your mind.
He'll have other chances to redeem himself though.

 

[Kinitari]

http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3149993:D


Just listened to the podcast. My opinion is if Dennis would put as much time and energy in making games as he does in trying to change the gaming forums/industry Too Human could be a great game. The moral of the story? Just make your game to the best of your ability Dennis and don't worry about what other people think. There will always be people the do not like certain games etc.... Just my observation.

I think something to add to the moral is - take criticism as just that... criticism. Not as a personal attack. If you take it, listen to it, and work to improve the problems that people seem to have with it, what's the worse that'll happen - a better game?

 

[StuBurns]

He's talked it up too much though, I was listening back to the EGM Live* when he's talking about Mark's "Teerrrrriible" rating.

He made some strange and extreme statements, he considers the production quality to rival hollywood, he considers it to be a new genre that will blow people away, he considers it to be what defines Silicon Knights.

If this defines Silicon Knights, it looks like it'll be for the worse.

Maybe it will be amazing, but after seeing the "hollywood rivaling" production quality we've seen in the opening movie, and the gameplay I've seen on the 1up Show, I'd say it'll be shit. Maybe this preview code is very different from the gold code, but I doubt it.

 

[Grecco]

He's talked it up too much though, I was listening back to the EGM Live* when he's talking about Mark's "Teerrrrriible" rating.

He made some strange and extreme statements, .

I listened to it too. He actually threatens Mark (Not blatantly but you can understand what hes meaning) with the notion that he would "regret" his preview and it would damage him, because somehow Too Human would be awesome and readers wouldnt believe him anymore. He threatens Marks reputation as a journalist.

Extremly absurd and demented.

 

[jaundicejuice]

He'll have other chances to redeem himself though.

If Too Human is another commercial bomb you really think so? I know Silicon Knights have had a fair amount of success with the critics with their last two games but they didn't garner the commercial success with either Eternal Darkness or Twin Snakes. With three games released in the last decade and none of them being a success and you think publishers will line up to give the company money? Obviously Too Human's commercial success is an unknown at this point but there's a bit of a trend here.

All of Denis' talk of ethical business practices and how he tries to never outsource in the podcast leads me to believe that this is something he's kind of worried about.

 

[The S-Word]

If he's such a crusader of internet fairness why has he not spoken up when others get ragged on? Jeff Bell? He has been on 1upYours once or twice since that even happened. He's finally snapped is all. He uses a ton of references and giant words to try and seem as if he has a legitimate reason for spewing garbage out of his mouth about a internet forum meant for discussion and jokes alike.

 

[KTallguy]

If Too Human is another commercial bomb you really think so? I know Silicon Knights have had a fair amount of success with the critics with their last two games but they didn't garner the commercial success with either Eternal Darkness or Twin Snakes. With three games released in the last decade and none of them being a success and you think publishers will line up to give the company money? Obviously Too Human's commercial success is an unknown at this point but there's a bit of a trend here.

All of Denis' talk of ethical business practices and how he tries to never outsource in the podcast leads me to believe that this is something he's kind of worried about.

Well, not every game has to be a long term big budget phenomenon. He can work on smaller projects too.

And he's a passionate guy. I mean, if the Phantom guys can get so much money, he should be able to do ok.

 

[MaizeRage25]

http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3149993:D


Just listened to the podcast. My opinion is if Dennis would put as much time and energy in making games as he does in trying to change the gaming forums/industry Too Human could be a great game. The moral of the story? Just make your game to the best of your ability Dennis and don't worry about what other people think. There will always be people the do not like certain games etc.... Just my observation.

I came away feeling the same way. Maybe if he would concentrate all of his energy on his games, Too Human would have been out a long time ago.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

I agree with some of what Denis had to say. I know it is just a message board, but it would be nice if we could all try to be somwhat better people.

After the Jeff Bell E3 press event I posted on my blog (which no one would ever see, but a few friends) that the event was terrible and that Jeff Bell was a douche etc. Thinking back, I feel bad, even though he surely wouldn't have seen it, but that I would never do that in person. People say and write stupid shit all the time and just because its the internet doesn't make it right.

 

[AmericanNinja]

I came away feeling the same way. Maybe if he would concentrate all of his energy on his games, Too Human would have been out a long time ago.

Agreed.

I think something to add to the moral is - take criticism as just that... criticism. Not as a personal attack. If you take it, listen to it, and work to improve the problems that people seem to have with it, what's the worse that'll happen - a better game?

Great point. I agree.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Well, not every game has to be a long term big budget phenomenon. He can work on smaller projects too.

And he's a passionate guy. I mean, if the Phantom guys can get so much money, he should be able to do ok.

How much did Too Human cost in terms of Microsoft's pocket?

 

[adamsapple]

im a bit LTTP but i just finished listening to the show, the first half of the Dennis section was a complete bore fest, no offense dennis but all that book talk wasn't interesting, but the discussion became very interesting when the topic switched to GAF and gaming forums etc ..

and i agree with some of his points, its good to see someone speak their mind.

 

[beelzebozo]

i just listened to the podcast this morning. i am stunned at how stupid that last segment was. the melodrama was so thick not even the mighty hammer of thor could penetrayte its intimidating stupidity.

 

[Deepblue]

After listening to the entire show, I have to say I agree with most of what Denis has to say. Hell, the thread title is extremely disingenious. If people actually took the time to listen through the entire discussion they might understand the underlying issues being discussed. I'm almost tempted to start a new thread to discuss this segment considering the state of the current thread.

 

[eznark]

After listening to the entire show, I have to say I agree with most of what Denis has to say. Hell, the thread title is extremely disingenious.

agree. What a shitty weekend to go out of town, I missed this absurdity.

 

[Rocket Punch]

After listening to the entire show, I have to say I agree with most of what Denis has to say. Hell, the thread title is extremely disingenious. If people actually took the time to listen through the entire discussion they might understand the underlying issues being discussed. I'm almost tempted to start a new thread to discuss this segment considering the state of the current thread.

he may be right about his theories (doubt it) but that doesn't mean his game is any better because of it and that's really the bottom line.

 

[TrueReligion]

.

 

[Gattsu25]

I'm betting Epic's lawyers are overjoyed reading/hearing this stuff.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Twig]

After listening to the entire show, I have to say I agree with most of what Denis has to say. Hell, the thread title is extremely disingenious. If people actually took the time to listen through the entire discussion they might understand the underlying issues being discussed. I'm almost tempted to start a new thread to discuss this segment considering the state of the current thread.

Does he have to be such an arrogant ass about it?

"Hey guys, here's a bunch of books I read to make it sound like I'm really smart and you're not because you have no fucking clue what I'm talking about! Oh, by the way, I'm above you in every way imaginable, and you should never have anything negative to say about my game ever because of scientism and other big fancy words!"

Srsly.

That may not have been his intention, but that's pretty much all I got out of it, despite actually understanding most of what he said and agreeing with some of what he said.

 

[StuBurns]

After listening to the entire show, I have to say I agree with most of what Denis has to say. Hell, the thread title is extremely disingenious. If people actually took the time to listen through the entire discussion they might understand the underlying issues being discussed. I'm almost tempted to start a new thread to discuss this segment considering the state of the current thread.

I've listened to it start to finish twice, he sounds like a fucking fascist.

The whole concept of every establishment, even a non-profit one, owes it to society to only provide positive influence is absurd. He calls for reform on here because people don't like him, that's it. He's a whinney little bitch that can't take the fact a lot of people find his games less then masterful.

He just has no right to dictate how people act on here.

He also got pretty much every 'fact' he stated wrong. Yes mods should follow the rules given by the site, and for the most part they do, when they don't they are often punished.

And the 90% thing annoyed me, he said he thinks TH is SK's best game, and that the media will agree, if that's the case then it should get 93% or higher on metacritic. We weren't saying 89% is shit. He's an idiot.

 

[Deepblue]

Reform is needed when mods not only fail to fulfill their duties (namely moderating discussion to keep it civil) but actually actively contribute to the issue. There is a clear double-standard based on mod preferences, and it is that double-standard which needs to end if a pertinent and meaningful discussion is ever to take place.

Also, clinging to metacritic scores as a way to judge a games value has many limits. For example, I know Halo 3 is far and away a better game than Halo 1, but Metacritic would disagree. What we experience here is a temporal issue, because the ruler has changed as time progresses. In this situation, saying X is better than Y because of a metacritic score is completely and utterly asanine.

As another case study, I recently revisited a forum I had not been very active on for some time. While trying to find my last post pertinent to the game this forum was dedicated too, I discovered my posts to be longer and generally more thought out. Comparing that to my posts here, I was somewhat shocked by the marked decrease in discussion-centric sensibilities, a change I assume was brought on by the environment that GAF all too often produces. Whereas, my previous forum habitat was one built on altruistic collaboration and cooperation, GAF in general seems far more superficial, judgemental, and quick to create new nonsensical memes in order to build its own self-importance. This style has its own charms, however, mostly a psuedo-soap style of entertainment. That was the initial draw for me at least. The problem arises when people take these forum melodramas into real life and they begin to affect the way we think, act, and spend our dollars. The conventional wisdom nowadays is tempermental, and very often incorrect.

 

[Twig]

Reform is needed when mods not only fail to fulfill their duties (namely moderating discussion to keep it civil) but actually actively contribute to the issue. There is a clear double-standard based on mod preferences, and it is that double-standard which needs to end if a pertinent and meaningful discussion is ever to take place.

So is Denis Dyack a revolutionary, or something?

Is this a call for The NeoGAF Revolution? 2008-20XX! It begins... now!

 

[Rocket Punch]

keeping a discussion civil? oh you mean the innapropriate GIFs and the negative observations (criticism) of a videogame he is developing??

people are too naive sometimes. he wants reform to suit his needs, not for the good of humanity.

 

[Grecco]

Reform is needed when mods not only fail to fulfill their duties (namely moderating discussion to keep it civil) but actually actively contribute to the issue. There is a clear double-standard based on mod preferences, and it is that double-standard which needs to end if a pertinent and meaningful discussion is ever to take place.

.

Evillore said it better than me but Moderators Arent robots. They are human and will have opinions as well. To expect otherwise is assinine

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

So is Denis Dyack a revolutionary, or something?

Is this a call for The NeoGAF Revolution? 2008-20XX! It begins... now!

Che Dyack revolutionary chops incoming?

 

[Deepblue]

Evillore said it better than me but Moderators Arent robots. They are human and will have opinions as well. To expect otherwise is assinine

No one is asking them to give up their opinions, but when acting as moderators rather than posters, those opinions must not play a part in their considerations. Any person who has actually moderated a formal debate knows this.

 

[alistairw]

Che Dyack revolutionary chops incoming?

I would be all over that shit if I were at home right now.

 

[Technosteve]

i dunno i like my moderators secret and in the background controlling things

 

[Kittonwy]

Reform is needed when mods not only fail to fulfill their duties (namely moderating discussion to keep it civil) but actually actively contribute to the issue. There is a clear double-standard based on mod preferences, and it is that double-standard which needs to end if a pertinent and meaningful discussion is ever to take place.

Also, clinging to metacritic scores as a way to judge a games value has many limits. For example, I know Halo 3 is far and away a better game than Halo 1, but Metacritic would disagree. What we experience here is a temporal issue, because the ruler has changed as time progresses. In this situation, saying X is better than Y because of a metacritic score is completely and utterly asanine.

As another case study, I recently revisited a forum I had not been very active on for some time. While trying to find my last post pertinent to the game this forum was dedicated too, I discovered my posts to be longer and generally more thought out. Comparing that to my posts here, I was somewhat shocked by the marked decrease in discussion-centric sensibilities, a change I assume was brought on by the environment that GAF all too often produces. Whereas, my previous forum habitat was one built on altruistic collaboration and cooperation, GAF in general seems far more superficial, judgemental, and quick to create new nonsensical memes in order to build its own self-importance. This style has its own charms, however, mostly a psuedo-soap style of entertainment. That was the initial draw for me at least. The problem arises when people take these forum melodramas into real life and they begin to affect the way we think, act, and spend our dollars. The conventional wisdom nowadays is tempermental, and very often incorrect.

It's true that HALO3 is a better game than HALO1 but then HALO1 at the time was a better console shooter than almost everything else, and HALO3 has stiff competition in the form of COD4, that's not a problem with Metacritic but reviewers not re-evaluating old games, in which case they're not obligated to. It's not Metacritic's fault that one is unable to take things in their proper context, it would be kind of stupid to simply use Metacritic as a tool to argue that an outdated game (not referring to HALO1 here) would be better than a current-gen game just because it was more highly rated at the time, it's not like people at GAF or any other board would be able to see through that.

What melodramas are you talking about? People here are complaining about ANIMATIONS and COLLISION DETECTION and SHITTY CUTSCENES, those are SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES, and here we have Dyack wanting to shut down the board and have 180 people banned? I'm not sure whether the melodramas are coming from gaf here. Why should people not read forums and find out if certain elements of a preview build of a certain game is shit and react accordingly? Why should people live in a vacuum, exposed only to game marketing from publishers and certain developers trying to hype their games up without being able to get some hands-on opinions on games or even form opinions on their own on what the publisher and developer have provided in order to make a more informed decision like holding off on pre-ordering until one has played the demo and can be sure that the game might be worth owning?

If Evillore and Amirox and Dragona want to tell it like it is I don't see the problem here, it's not like they have to appease Dyack and pull any punches on what they see on Dyack's game. The point should be not to show shitty animations and shitty collision detection and shitty cutscenes if you don't want to be criticized, if your game isn't ready to be shown, then don't show it, if you do show it then you should expect feedback even if it's negative, because whether it's gaf or any other forum, that feedback is going to come regardless.

 

[avatar299]

No one is asking them to give up their opinions, but when acting as moderators rather than posters, those opinions must not play a part in their considerations. Any person who has actually moderated a formal debate knows this.

This is not a debate. The moderators exist to prevent personal attacks and things like that. Not to make sure no one's feeling are hurt.

 

[Deepblue]

What melodramas are you talking about? People here are complaining about ANIMATIONS and COLLISION DETECTION and SHITTY CUTSCENES, those are SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

Why should people live in a vacuum, exposed only to game marketing from publishers and certain developers trying to hype their games up without being able to get some hands-on opinions on games or even form opinions on their own on what the publisher and developer have provided in order to make a more informed decision like holding off on pre-ordering until one has played the demo and can be sure that the game might be worth owning?

I'm pretty sure watching a video and saying "shitty animation lol" does not constitute good informative discussion. Halo 3 and Halo 2 have several spots with completely cringe-worthy animation. That doesn't give me valid grounds to judge the entire game based on that weakness.

The point should be not to show shitty animations and shitty collision detection and shitty cutscenes if you don't want to be criticized, if your game isn't ready to be shown, then don't show it, if you do show it then you should expect feedback even if it's negative, because whether it's gaf or any other forum, that feedback is going to come regardless.

That didn't stop mods from banning those who made similar comments based on pre-release media for their favorite game franchises. Like I stated in my earlier post, there is a double standard that belies the point of modship.

 

[Deepblue]

This is not a debate. The moderators exist to prevent personal attacks and things like that. Not to make sure no one's feeling are hurt.

I'm pretty sure we've crossed that line.

 

[JordoftheDead]

No one is asking them to give up their opinions, but when acting as moderators rather than posters, those opinions must not play a part in their considerations. Any person who has actually moderated a formal debate knows this.

Exactly.
Denis makes a point, because some of the things that I've seen mods write would get you banned at a number of other sites.
It just comes across as blatent fanboy baiting.

It isn't contributing, and it just makes threads a clusterf*ck.

I was reading a thread before and a few posters were laughing at TeamXbox members, but I tell you now, If I went to an other console thread there and said some of the comments that get thrown around here without consequence I’d be banned no question.

If I went into a game thread and said ‘It’s shit because I say it’s shit’ I’d be banned also.
When mods are behaving like this it really says something about how the site is run.

 

[KTallguy]

I'm pretty sure we've crossed that line.

So why are people banned for calling Denis fat?
It's a personal attack, right? Personal attack = ban.

If people want to nitpick problems in games, it's their right.

If a game is truly great, it will prove itself as great when it goes on the market.

GAF only observes, thinks, reacts and discusses. That's what a discussion board is all about.

Sure, "lulz bad animation" isn't always constructive, but it's an observation that many people agree with, therefore it's not off base.

If Too Human is an amazing game despite the bad animation, poor cinematics, allegedly poor story, only 2 player co-op, etc., then people will eat crow and there will be retribution.

But so far, Too Human doesn't look like an amazing game at all. To many of us.
Denis' dismissive attitude and hyping stuff up just magnifies the problem tenfold.
If you're going to go out there and say that you're going to deliver the next amazing game, as good as Diablo, etc., and you don't deliver, you deserve every little bit of bashing you get. You don't talk if you can't deliver. And people who deliver and talk very little, those are the best models in the industry in my opinion.

 

[Moray]

I don't need to play a game to know that it's going to suck (or be fun, but suck in Too Human's case). I've been gaming for about 20 years now and my snap judgments about games are usually accurate.

 

[Twig]

Denis makes a point, because some of the things that I've seen mods write would get you banned at a number of other sites.

This isn't other sites. This is GAF.

That's a pretty important fact.

 

[behem0th x]

I don't see why Denis is being such a puss about this, for him to even post must mean that he already feels insecure about the game. As if it placing the blame on medias previews, or blaming Epic Games for the games shortcomings wasn't enough now he thinks it's forums fault because the game generally isn't looking up to snuff? It just seems childish IMO.

"Oh noes they're making gifs that poke fun of my game, they should be banned and the site will collapse until people are completely complacent about everything they on the internet!"

Is he at all awake upstairs? Does he not see that most of it is (obviously) well deserved... you can't show off the game and talk it up like it's the second coming and then show people something that the majority of them think looks a bit ameteurish at best (not talking about gameplay, but rather graphics, hit detection, cinematography... in all honesty the Mystery Science Theater gif is extremely fitting.) Also, just because people find the gifs funny or enjoy making them doesn't mean they hate the game and won't buy it... way to take everything on the internet absolutely serious. He's basically trying to pull a Peter Molyneux (except this debut is 11 years in the making) by talking up his game and all his influences and the ideas from all the books he read (while most of it doesn't even make it to the game story or gameplay-wise according to playtests), and then when people judge his game he's trying to take the high road. I'm sure if it were all praise he wouldn't have sh*t to say.

grow up.

I'm pretty sure watching a video and saying "shitty animation lol" does not constitute good informative discussion. Halo 3 and Halo 2 have several spots with completely cringe-worthy animation. That doesn't give me valid grounds to judge the entire game based on that weakness.

Do you expect people to pass judgement on the parts of the game they haven't seen? I don't think so, if someone is talking about shitty animation and posts a gif, I think it's fair to say that they're specifically talking about said gif, or in the case of Too Human, most of the gifs that were posted. Thinking anything else would be an assumption, no? Of course they aren't saying the entire game is like that, just most of the cinematics weve seen so far.

I like the way mods run this site, if they post stuff and you take everything 100% serious, that's your own problem. I think this site lets people be more relaxed and generally state their opinions without being so strict. Sure, rules are rules but I've seen cops let drunk people drive home and i've seen judges sentence innocent people... rules are there as a guide not as absolute statements.

 

[drohne]

I don't need to play game to know that it's going to suck (or be fun, but suck in Too Human's case). I've been gaming for about 20 years now and my snap judgments about games are usually accurate.

this is true, but i hesitate to say it because it's a difficult position to justify

 

[Pelydr]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

I'm pretty sure watching a video and saying "shitty animation lol" does not constitute good informative discussion. Halo 3 and Halo 2 have several spots with completely cringe-worthy animation. That doesn't give me valid grounds to judge the entire game based on that weakness.

That didn't stop mods from banning those who made similar comments based on pre-release media for their favorite game franchises. Like I stated in my earlier post, there is a double standard that belies the point of modship.

Stop taking a free, internet message board so seriously. The mods don't get paid, they do this shit on their free time. Logic says that they won't treat everything and everyone the same. Get the fuck over it, or move the fuck on. Dyack is acting like a complete baby and so are you.

Mods are fanboys!!!!!!!!!!!:lol No shit, mods have opinions. This isn't a forum based on lolipops and fairness.

BTW, I'm still looking forward to renting Too Human. It looks totally average at best, but I still want to play it.

 

[firehawk12]

And the 90% thing annoyed me, he said he thinks TH is SK's best game, and that the media will agree, if that's the case then it should get 93% or higher on metacritic. We weren't saying 89% is shit. He's an idiot.

It was bait to basically prove that people have a blind dependence on numbers as statistical fact.

 

[Moray]

this is true, but i hesitate to say it because it's a difficult position to justify

Well Dennis likes to read insightful books so maybe he should read Blink.

Basically, with experience you get a very powerful intuition and you don't need much information to make an informed decision.