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[badcrumble]

I feel like we've talked about this before. Someone mentioned a game (which I can't remember its name right now) that didn't have chapters and was fairly connected but still gave you an option to replay the encounters in the menu. I think that could work for DMC5 as well, if they do decide to approach it that way.

If I'm not mistaken, Rise of the Tomb Raider has this option as well and that game is a sandbox/OW.

Best way I can picture that working is to basically have the map be a series of connected arena-nodes, where each node can house multiple different battles depending on your progress (and where you can configure a given node to keep respawning a challenge you've already beaten so you can S-Rank it). Plus, eventually, a fast travel option.

 

[Waddle Dee]

I've been reading a lot of the recent posts and I think the most important thing that the developers will need to decide on for DMC5's combat is whether or not they should get rid of the style system. I personally think they should and instead make all your weapons (assuming Dante will have 4 or 5 devil arms) go on the D-pad. The triggers could then be used for variables.

The Right Trigger could be the dedicated "gun modifier" button. Pressing it by itself wouldn't do anything, but holding it down would change the function of your shoot button, allowing you to use Gunslinger style moves with the X button (or whatever you use for the shoot button). You would also be able to switch guns by holding down the Right Trigger and pressing directions on the D-pad (again, assuming Dante would only have 4 or 5 guns).

I think DmC was also onto something with the dodge button. Mapping the dodge button to both LB and RB was a stupid decision, but maybe having one dodge button on the L or R bumper could work as your Trickster style button?

This would make the placement of the Devil Trigger button questionable, though. I dunno, do you guys prefer having Lock-On being on one of the bumpers, or on one of the Triggers? I think both could work, but if Lock-On was kept to the bumper, than Devil Trigger would maybe have to be on the Left Trigger... That could maybe be used as an excuse to expand the use of the Devil Trigger, though. Maybe, during Devil Trigger you could hold down the DT button and press one of the face buttons to do a special DT-only move that consumes the rest of the DT meter? It could be used as one last attack/movement option before it's used up (or maybe holding down the DT trigger and pressing X would give you Doppleganger and pressing Y would give you Quicksilver?)

I think having B being used as another Sword button would make sense... it'd essentially be the dedicated Swordmaster button. Dante has enough moves for most of his Devil Arms that two buttons for it would be needed.

So, instead of completely getting rid of all the moves the Style System gave us in the past, maybe they could just be given their own dedicated buttons. Choosing weapons with the D-pad would be so much easier and would be vital if Dante were to have more than 2 or 3 weapons at a time(which I think is a must going forward).

I don't think this would be "simplifying" the controls so much as simply updating them so that players could not only have easier access to Dante's arsenal, but also so that Dante could have more moves at a time than ever before.

 

[Dahbomb]

Putting weapons on D-pad doesn't solve the issue of DMC4. You are just swapping one problem (style switch on D pad) with another (weapon switch on D-pad). And you are switching weapons more often than styles.

 

[J_Macgrady]

After that long conversation I see three options:

1. Focus on accessibility to the fullest with Dante, but you have to take away some moves/styles because he just has too many moves.

2. Make each style as powerful as they were in three and let players customize Dante to determine how many styles/weapons they want equipped at once.

3. Keep things the way they are for the most part, but make basic swordmaster and gunslinger moves accessible without the style system.

If anyone can pull something off that will blow us all away it's this team, but idk how you get rid of the style system and keep all of the moves he had in 4 and make it accessible for everyone. That's a very tough task and at the end of the day you can't please everyone. It's all about the direction that they feel would be best for the franchise.

There's just no way we're getting the best of all worlds and everybody is completely satisfied. Something's gotta give.

 

[Dahbomb]

#2 was a suggestion I made a long long time ago but when it boils down to it the high level players will still play with everything equipped anyway and the lower level players will still want to emulate that and then get frustrated.

That option really doesn't solve much when you get down to it. It does fix the tri/dual weapon swap thing but I feel that there has to be a more elegant solution to this.

 

[J_Macgrady]

#2 was a suggestion I made a long long time ago but when it boils down to it the high level players will still play with everything equipped anyway and the lower level players will still want to emulate that and then get frustrated.

That option really doesn't solve much when you get down to it. It does fix the tri/dual weapon swap thing but I feel that there has to be a more elegant solution to this.

Why can't we just look at high level players as talented people and not care much about emulating them? As long as you can get S ranks and beat the enemies/bosses with ease, how you do it doesn't really matter. Some people just spend more time on a game and are more talented with the controller than others. Nothing will ever change that. I think it's pointless to think that changing so much will change that fact.

Maybe they will find a solution, but the superhuman play has more to do with the individual than the control scheme no matter what.

 

[Waddle Dee]

Putting weapons on D-pad doesn't solve the issue of DMC4. You are just swapping one problem (style switch on D pad) with another (weapon switch on D-pad). And you are switching weapons more often than styles.

I understand what you're getting at but switching through weapons with the L and R Triggers is just dumb if they're going to give Dante more than 3 Devil Arms and Weapons (which they probably would. DMC3 had 5 of both iirc). Making the moves from Styles become always accessible, without needing to switch them with the D-pad, would make certain actions much easier and quicker for the average player.

Whatever they do, I hope Capcom gives us a ton of options to choose from so that the controls please as many players as possible without completely removing mechanics from DMC4.

 

[Dahbomb]

Because gaming culture has changed and game streaming/video making influences a game's meta. People are always striving to see how most optimally to play a game, it's just gamer nature. Hell this has how DMC has progressed as an action game, people started hearing about DMC3's supposed combo depth through combo videos.

If you were allowed to carry 10 weapons and play with 6 styles all at once then someone will do it and everyone will try to copy it. It would be clunky but that's what they will perceive as being the best.

A slightly better solution is to do a ratio system. You can equip more Styles and weapons but you start getting damage loss/style loss on them for each additional equipment you have. Kinda like CVS/Skullgirls ratio system. That way there will probably be some optimum number in the middle like say 4 weapons and a few styles, beginners can play with 2 weapons one style and still do very well. And for the combo video makers they will still use everything because for them tools/styles are more important than efficiency.

 

[J_Macgrady]

Because gaming culture has changed and game streaming/video making influences a game's meta. People are always striving to see how most optimally to play a game, it's just gamer nature. Hell this has how DMC has progressed as an action game, people started hearing about DMC3's supposed combo depth through combo videos.

If you were allowed to carry 10 weapons and play with 6 styles all at once then someone will do it and everyone will try to copy it. It would be clunky but that's what they will perceive as being the best.

A slightly better solution is to do a ratio system. You can equip more Styles and weapons but you start getting damage loss/style loss on them for each additional equipment you have. Kinda like CVS/Skullgirls ratio system. That way there will probably be some optimum number in the middle like say 4 weapons and a few styles, beginners can play with 2 weapons one style and still do very well. And for the combo video makers they will still use everything because for them tools/styles are more important than efficiency.

That's penalizing players for experimenting with loadouts for no reason. In a fighting game this would make sense, but an action game with a ranking system that doesn't care about that I just don't see the point. DMC has more to do with what you think is stylish than anything. For some it's just the animations themselves, for others it's something else, but that's all it is. What you perceive as stylish that's it.

 

[Dahbomb]

That's penalizing players for experimenting with loadouts for no reason. In a fighting game this would make sense, but an action game with a ranking system that doesn't care about that I just don't see the point. DMC has more to do with what you think is stylish than anything. For some it's just the animations themselves, for others it's something else, but that's all it is. What you perceive as stylish that's it.

This system does all of that.

If you think what's stylish is using a bunch of moves/weapons/styles all at the same time then you can do that. Top players already play with trainers that increase enemy HP so they can style longer, this has the same effect (hell look at that DmC combo video I posted, it's being played on Must Style mode where you do 0 damage before S rank). And this would still be the most optimum play if mastered but it will be the toughest to master (think DMC4 Dante moveset vs Nero moveset).

If you think that stylish is how the game rates you then you can use the load out that you are most comfortable with and try to maximize style with that. If you are really amazing with a couple of weapons but suck with the rest then you will be rewarded for the mastery of a few versus being jack of all trades. And if you like being jack of trades then that option is available as well.

If everything is equal then by default using as many weapons as possible will lead to the easiest gain in Style and best damage options so it will be the default no brainer "best" option. Ever wonder why it's so easy to gain style and do damage with Nero versus compared to Dante? Because they balanced with that ratio in mind. They knew that Dante has way more tools at his disposal to mix up and gain style with so on the low end it's actually harder to get and maintain high style with Dante (minus of course the clearly broken stuff). It's why they nerfed the styles and weapons to begin with.

Basically what I am saying is that you would have an actual choice to play like DMC3 Dante (buffed up weapons/styles but less stuff at once) vs DMC4 Dante (everything at once but nerfed).


Of course this is just a suggestion and I don't think they will use it nor should they. There's probably a better solution and as DMC4 has shown people don't like playing with nerfed stuff, they want to feel like a god. The other extreme is Vergil which is over powered even with a small set of weapons.

 

[badcrumble]

Yeah, I don't know to what degree fully fine-tuned *balance* is strictly necessary in DMC. I believe in balance as a general first principle, but I don't think it's necessary for all characters to be equally powerful or all characters to be equally accessible. I'd say DMC4SE Vergil isn't just powerful but actually *broken* in some ways that filter their way all the way down to newbie players (being able to actually freeze even boss enemies temporarily, zero-frame summon sword launches, and being able to use teleports to instantly cancel out of every single move no matter what), but it's okay to differentiate between 'unbalanced' and 'broken' (he has other qualities that i'd call merely unbalanced but that aren't fundamentally a real problem for the game).

If they make DMC5 Dante basically DMC3 Dante plus style switching, plus some of the other mechanical improvements from DMC4, that's fine with me. The solution (if that makes Nero feel comparatively underpowered) is to give Nero more options, so they're *both* very powerful characters with lots of options at their fingertips.

 

[Dahbomb]

Balance is its own can of worms in a DMC game.

There's not only character balance but weapon balance, melee vs range balance, move balance (within a particular weapon or style), style balance, enemy/boss balance.

One thing that DMC should actively be moving away from is damage = more style. This has plagued the DMC games in the past from a balance perspective. This was a huge problem in DmC as well and how you got the whole "Demon Dodge -> Trinity Smash -> easy SSS" sequence.

And then further divide moves by how much meter they gain, which again is tied to damage/style in previous DMC games. That way you can have 4-5 parameters of how and why you would want to use a particular move outside of just their utility or for combo videos. Because while it's cool to make and watch combo videos, that shouldn't be the sole purpose of why you design a move.

This breeds depth and versatility while also attracting players who aren't as concerned with making combo videos but want to min/max their game play when it comes to just playing through the game.

 

[badcrumble]

Balance is its own can of worms in a DMC game.

There's not only character balance but weapon balance, melee vs range balance, move balance (within a particular weapon or style), style balance, enemy/boss balance.

One thing that DMC should actively be moving away from is damage = more style. This has plagued the DMC games in the past from a balance perspective. This was a huge problem in DmC as well and how you got the whole "Demon Dodge -> Trinity Smash -> easy SSS" sequence.

And then further divide moves by how much meter they gain, which again is tied to damage/style in previous DMC games. That way you can have 4-5 parameters of how and why you would want to use a particular move outside of just their utility or for combo videos. Because while it's cool to make and watch combo videos, that shouldn't be the sole purpose of why you design a move.

This breeds depth and versatility while also attracting players who aren't as concerned with making combo videos but want to min/max their game play when it comes to just playing through the game.

Yeah, absolutely. I think as long as the skill ceiling remains incredibly high (but there's a decent challenge when learning to initially just survive, and a good learning/depth curve instead of a cliff), it's okay if some characters are a bit more powerful than others at theoretical maximum skill levels or if some characters are a bit more powerful than others for button-mashers.

Definitely agree that more damage = more style is a bad thing, though the way Bayonetta handles it (basically less damage = more style because it's almost purely per-move, to the point that the weakest/fastest weapons are far and away the best ones for generating combo points) has its own problems with incentives too.

I do understand, on a base level, that from a design perspective if you're knocking half of an enemy's life bar off with a single move, there's an incentive to award more style points if only so you make sure each player can get roughly the same expected mean/median amount of Style off of a given amount of enemy HP. But this also runs counter to the design impulse to make all moves cancellable and flexible and so on. There needs to be a risk/reward factor to these things or else bigger damage moves end up being strictly superior in *all* senses. Maybe heavier damage moves should do more to make you vulnerable somehow (even more than they already do). I'm okay with heavier damage moves giving more style *per hit* than faster, lower damage moves, but if dealing 300HP in a single move gives you 300 style, dealing 300HP with five different (and varied) moves should net you like 500-600 style points. Dealing 300HP with one weak easily-executed move five times should give you like 200 Style.

It's obviously a good thing that hitting more targets and using more variety in your moves results in more Style. That's something DMC gets totally right (outside of vanilla DmC).

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Checking the last page. Good to see that most of the guys in community have survived the great purge... for now.

TGA and PSX or close so just steer clear of any political discussion guys.

 

[J_Macgrady]

This system does all of that.

If you think what's stylish is using a bunch of moves/weapons/styles all at the same time then you can do that. Top players already play with trainers that increase enemy HP so they can style longer, this has the same effect (hell look at that DmC combo video I posted, it's being played on Must Style mode where you do 0 damage before S rank). And this would still be the most optimum play if mastered but it will be the toughest to master (think DMC4 Dante moveset vs Nero moveset).

If you think that stylish is how the game rates you then you can use the load out that you are most comfortable with and try to maximize style with that. If you are really amazing with a couple of weapons but suck with the rest then you will be rewarded for the mastery of a few versus being jack of all trades. And if you like being jack of trades then that option is available as well.

If everything is equal then by default using as many weapons as possible will lead to the easiest gain in Style and best damage options so it will be the default no brainer "best" option. Ever wonder why it's so easy to gain style and do damage with Nero versus compared to Dante? Because they balanced with that ratio in mind. They knew that Dante has way more tools at his disposal to mix up and gain style with so on the low end it's actually harder to get and maintain high style with Dante (minus of course the clearly broken stuff). It's why they nerfed the styles and weapons to begin with.

Basically what I am saying is that you would have an actual choice to play like DMC3 Dante (buffed up weapons/styles but less stuff at once) vs DMC4 Dante (everything at once but nerfed).


Of course this is just a suggestion and I don't think they will use it nor should they. There's probably a better solution and as DMC4 has shown people don't like playing with nerfed stuff, they want to feel like a god. The other extreme is Vergil which is over powered even with a small set of weapons.

I interpreted damage loss as in health loss so that was my bad. Since that wasn't the case with your theory, I agree that this would work. There probably is a smoother solution to this, and I'm open to whatever they do even if it seems like I'm not. I just wouldn't want to lose most of what DMC4 Dante had to offer because he stands out from all other action game characters.

Yeah, absolutely. I think as long as the skill ceiling remains incredibly high (but there's a decent challenge when learning to initially just survive, and a good learning/depth curve instead of a cliff), it's okay if some characters are a bit more powerful than others at theoretical maximum skill levels or if some characters are a bit more powerful than others for button-mashers.

Definitely agree that more damage = more style is a bad thing, though the way Bayonetta handles it (basically less damage = more style because it's almost purely per-move, to the point that the weakest/fastest weapons are far and away the best ones for generating combo points) has its own problems with incentives too.

I do understand, on a base level, that from a design perspective if you're knocking half of an enemy's life bar off with a single move, there's an incentive to award more style points if only so you make sure each player can get roughly the same expected mean/median amount of Style off of a given amount of enemy HP. But this also runs counter to the design impulse to make all moves cancellable and flexible and so on. There needs to be a risk/reward factor to these things or else bigger damage moves end up being strictly superior in *all* senses. Maybe heavier damage moves should do more to make you vulnerable somehow (even more than they already do). I'm okay with heavier damage moves giving more style *per hit* than faster, lower damage moves, but if dealing 300HP in a single move gives you 300 style, dealing 300HP with five different (and varied) moves should net you like 500-600 style points. Dealing 300HP with one weak easily-executed move five times should give you like 200 Style.

It's obviously a good thing that hitting more targets and using more variety in your moves results in more Style. That's something DMC gets totally right (outside of vanilla DmC).

Yeah Bayonetta's combo point system has some issues. For DMC, the style meter's primary focus should be variety. I actually liked how the style meter worked in DmC DE even though it makes it damn near impossible to get S ranks your first playthrough.

 

[Dahbomb]

I actually liked how the style meter worked in DmC DE even though it makes it damn near impossible to get S ranks your first playthrough.

Yeah in Hardcore especially in earlier levels.

But once you get the other weapons it's business as usual.

 

[Golnei]

Checking the last page. Good to see that most of the guys in community have survived the great purge... for now.

TGA and PSX or close so just steer clear of any political discussion guys.

I guess it's up to the individual what they prefer to come here for - I know I'd get banned instantly for posting any sort of political opinion, so I'll stick to talking about games.

 

[darkslayer101]

man these last couple pages... you guys may have put more work into this than capcom...

 

[Son Of Sparda]

I guess it's up to the individual what they prefer to come here for - I know I'd get banned instantly for posting any sort of political opinion, so I'll stick to talking about games.

I know and respect that. It's just that it would be real bummer if one of you guys wasn't around due to a ban if the game got announced at PSX or TGA.

 

[Dahbomb]

man these last couple pages... you guy may have put more work into this than capcom...

At this point, DMC5 is going to disappoint in pretty much every aspect.

 

[GuardianE]

At this point, DMC5 is going to disappoint in pretty much every aspect.

I think it's pretty unrealistic to assume that there will be anything close to this many changes in a DMC5. That previous wishlist that was circulated to Capcom was just that. A wishlist.

I'm certainly not ready to write off and be disappointed by missed opportunities concocted via theory crafting. I think that's what has bothered me lately about certain discussions in this thread. They're just so negative.

That said, it's incredibly valuable to discuss the overall potential of a future title, and make a challenge to Capcom and Itsuno to make the best game that they can.

 

[Dahbomb]

I am not even talking about all of that stuff.

I feel like Capcom is going to gimp on so much basic stuff. Watch there be barely any training mode, no boss rush mode, same old difficulty modes we have always seen, garbage "story", Dante with no character development, same camera/controls as always, poor level design, microtransactions etc...

But my BIGGEST fear is them doubling down on the whole LDK mode thing and just making the main game all about fighting many weak enemies like a pseudo-Musou with massive hitbox attacks and dumb AI. There was a lot of focus on that in DMC4SE.

 

[GuardianE]

I am not even talking about all of that stuff.

I feel like Capcom is going to gimp on so much basic stuff. Watch there be barely any training mode, no boss rush mode, same old difficulty modes we have always seen, garbage "story", Dante with no character development, same camera/controls as always, poor level design, microtransactions etc...

But my BIGGEST fear is them doubling down on the whole LDK mode thing and just making the main game all about fighting many weak enemies like a pseudo-Musou with massive hitbox attacks and dumb AI. There was a lot of focus on that in DMC4SE.

It could happen. I'm certainly not doubting that. I've seen Capcom do worse with a fewer stakes involved. And all we can really do as spectators as the thing unfolds is continue to have discussions about it, trying to make our voice heard. I think that Itsuno has changed a lot and learned much with his experience in other projects... It's been 7 years, so we know things are going to get shaken up.

I hear you about the LDK mode thing. There were some telltale signs with their design templates with Trish, Lady, and Vergil, but I'm chalking that up to those characters (specifically Trish and Lady, but also Vergil in terms of balance) being unfinished.

 

[darkslayer101]

I know and respect that. It's just that it would be real bummer if one of you guys wasn't around due to a ban if the game got announced at PSX or TGA.

lol I forgot TGA was a thing.

Don't think anything is going to be announced then, psx is more probable.

 

[J_Macgrady]

I am not even talking about all of that stuff.

I feel like Capcom is going to gimp on so much basic stuff. Watch there be barely any training mode, no boss rush mode, same old difficulty modes we have always seen, garbage "story", Dante with no character development, same camera/controls as always, poor level design, microtransactions etc...

But my BIGGEST fear is them doubling down on the whole LDK mode thing and just making the main game all about fighting many weak enemies like a pseudo-Musou with massive hitbox attacks and dumb AI. There was a lot of focus on that in DMC4SE.

A lot has happened in the past 7 years with this franchise, the genre and the DMC team that I can't see them giving us DMC4 again when it comes to the campaign.

However, it's important to not get too theoretical with the difficulty modes and the game itself because if they give us all the stuff DmCDE and DMC4SE had there's no way in hell that's not a game with a complete package especially if they add in extra goodies like co op. 5 characters, GMD, and Must Style in one game is a lot added on top of what we already have.

At the end of the day, if I have as much fun pressing buttons in DMC5 as I did with DMC3 and 4 then they did a good job.

 

[AgentLampshade]

I'm not expecting much from DMC5 if I'm being honest. Maybe an extra character, some skins and the same old difficulty modes from DMC4SE. The fixed angles may be gone (I hope so. Very archaic design for this genre) and Dante will be great fun to play. I doubt they'll have another DMC4-grade budget due to the uncertainty* of the franchise, so they'll use this to test the waters again, like they did with 3.

*what I mean by this is that the Capcom higher-ups aren't in touch with the majority of fans, and don't know quite how to proceed. DmC failed, so they're probably reluctant to continue the series at all.

 

[YoRHa No.2 Type B]

he just triplejumps with DT's third jump.
the weird jump is the waljump, that's all.

it's easier to just do high voltage/rising sun and then walljump up there though.
see:
https://a.pomf.cat/gjldsi.webm

the webm also shows a stupid way of getting up there if you somehow don't have high voltage or air hike but do have rolling thunder/lunar phase and the pandora forward+gun dartgun

Thank you. Now I just noticed, how the hell do I go up there as Nero?

 

[Dahbomb]

Thank you. Now I just noticed, how the hell do I go up there as Nero?

Double jump, Roulette Spin does the job.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Honestly at this point whatever they make I hope they manage to use its full potential. DMC1 was just the beginning so it left a lot more to be desired. We never got a DMC2 which was weird. DMC3 was a masterpiece for the most part but some gameplay restrictions and few not-so-very-good enemy designs still held the game back from reaching the highest height that it could. Lastly we got DMC4 and we all know how much untapped potential that game had (both within gameplay and outside of it).

DMC5 needs to realize its full potential and feel like a game that is completely finished and realized on all fronts. That's the first and foremost thing that I want from the game.

lol I forgot TGA was a thing.

Don't think anything is going to be announced then, psx is more probable.

Hahaha, I just remembered it last week after seeing that (boring) N7 day trailer of ME:A.

 

[YoRHa No.2 Type B]

Double jump, Roulette Spin does the job.

I tried that. Doesn't seem to work.

 

[GuardianE]

I tried that. Doesn't seem to work.

Exceed lvl.3 high roller (hightime), then walljump.

 

[badcrumble]

I am not even talking about all of that stuff.

I feel like Capcom is going to gimp on so much basic stuff. Watch there be barely any training mode, no boss rush mode, same old difficulty modes we have always seen, garbage "story", Dante with no character development, same camera/controls as always, poor level design, microtransactions etc...

But my BIGGEST fear is them doubling down on the whole LDK mode thing and just making the main game all about fighting many weak enemies like a pseudo-Musou with massive hitbox attacks and dumb AI. There was a lot of focus on that in DMC4SE.

Those things are safe to fear, yeah.

I expect a better campaign (and story) than DMC4 and further improvements to the combat, though. Not even as a baseline "this is what's needed for me to like it" sort of thing, but just as immensely obvious goals the dev team's going to have for itself.

 

[Golnei]

DMC5 needs to realize its full potential and feel like a game that is completely finished and realized on all fronts. That's the first and foremost thing that I want from the game.

Given the series' turbulent history, a really solid base game is all I need to be satisfied with DMC5 - multiple playable characters and extensive bonus content would of course be great, but they shouldn't come before a fully realised (and/or revamped) campaign structure, a different approach to level design, much-needed QoL improvements, and varied, dynamic enemy and boss design. Releasing with just Dante won't be an issue if they can deliver something with a coherent, cohesive vision and a reasonable amount of content that isn't unduly constrained by the ravages of development hell - something that can keep up the strongest points of the series' design, but which won't have to be recommended with so many caveats to general consumers. But that's being very optimistic.

I expect a better campaign (and story) than DMC4 and further improvements to the combat, though. Not even as a baseline "this is what's needed for me to like it" sort of thing, but just as immensely obvious goals the dev team's going to have for itself.

I desperately hope the campaign structure will be an improvement (out of anything, that criticism of 4 had to have been the loudest), but I feel like the story is probably a lost cause. I just want something functional and enjoyable with some sort of meaningful arc that doesn't feel like a waste of time...

I doubt they'll have another DMC4-grade budget due to the uncertainty* of the franchise, so they'll use this to test the waters again, like they did with 3.

I don't doubt that a DMC5 could still turn out as a great game with a slashed budget, but it is concerning that they likely won't be given the resources to put the series back in the public eye as the defining example of its subgenre due to Capcom's conservative treatment of new titles and the performance of DmC. Maybe it'd be better off doing modestly well as a mid-budget title rather than running the risk of swinging and missing as an AAA title, but consciously aiming for a smaller, dedicated existing audience might be worse for the series in the long run by limiting the amount of new players it'd be able to bring in.

 

[badcrumble]

DMC3 quality campaign with combat and enemy/boss design that's basically the best of DMC3SE and DMC4SE would make me delighted even if I don't think it'd necessarily lay down a strong and much-needed foundation for the future of the series.

For that, I'd want a restructured approach to the campaign, a co-op mode, arena/boss rush, and easy sharing of your combos within the game itself.

I think as long as Capcom stays away from turning DMC5 into a cinematic setpiece game, they can make it on a fairly efficient budget, to be totally honest.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

This just occurred to me but if they do decide to stick with Dante as the sole protag for next game then what happens to us Nero players? I rarely touch other characters outside of Nero and when I do I almost never play around with Dante...

Okay Capcom, listen to me. Screw Dante. Give us Nero and you are good.

Spoiler

j/k

Seriously though, I need my Nero in DMC5 so I hope he is at least an unlockable character or at worse added later on as DLC.

 

[badcrumble]

This just occurred to me but if they do decide to stick with Dante as the sole protag for next game then what happens to us Nero player? I rarely touch other characters outside of Nero and when I do I almost never play around with Dante...

Okay Capcom, listen to me. Screw Dante. Give us Nero and you are good.

Spoiler

j/k

Seriously though, I need my Nero in DMC5 so I hope he is at least an unlockable character or at worse added later on as DLC.

I'm hoping DMC5 is structured to account for multiple characters right from the start, and not in the way DMC4 works (where you can only play as certain characters in certain chapters). Nero's a brilliant, fun, versatile character template with tons of room to expand on, and it'd be a shame to have the work that went into designing him left out of DMC5. It'd also be a shame to have a DMC4 situation where it's extremely annoying (without mods) to get to a point where you can fight against Credo with Dante.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

I'm hoping DMC5 is structured to account for multiple characters right from the start, and not in the way DMC4 works (where you can only play as certain characters in certain chapters). Nero's a brilliant, fun, versatile character template with tons of room to expand on, and it'd be a shame to have the work that went into designing him left out of DMC5. It'd also be a shame to have a DMC4 situation where it's extremely annoying (without mods) to get to a point where you can fight against Credo with Dante.

Yeah I agree. It would be real shame if they abandoned him completely.

To be honest I'm okay with them forcing certain characters for certain gameplay missions, though only for the first playthrough. If they wanna tell a certain story or plot that requires switching characters during some particular parts of campaign then it's cool as long as they make sure you can play through the entire campaign with whichever character you like on higher difficulties and playthroughs. The way DMC4 handled switching characters was not good and they should totally avoid that IMO.

 

[badcrumble]

Yeah I agree. It would be real shame if they abandoned him completely.

To be honest I'm okay with them forcing certain characters for certain gameplay missions, though only for the first playthrough. If they wanna tell a certain story or plot that requires switching characters during some particular parts of campaign then it's cool as long as they make sure you can play through the entire campaign with whichever character you like on higher difficulties and playthroughs. The way DMC4 handled switching characters was not good and they should totally avoid that IMO.

Yeah, exactly that. (And DMC3SE's thing of having completely separate save files was not great either)

 

[xuchu]

Hi guys, looking for a new character action game on the ps4. Played dmc4 and 3se back in the day extensively so looking at getting dmc definitive edition now. I hear it's much improved on the original, although I am wary after being disappointed by ng3:razors edge compared to ngb and ng2.

Any tips for definitive edition? I imagine it will take a while to get used to shoulder buttons to changes styles as opposed to the dpad. Is there anyway to remap that?

 

[Dahbomb]

Hi guys, looking for a new character action game on the ps4. Played dmc4 and 3se back in the day extensively so looking at getting dmc definitive edition now. I hear it's much improved on the original, although I am wary after being disappointed by ng3:razors edge compared to ngb and ng2.

Any tips for definitive edition? I imagine it will take a while to get used to shoulder buttons to changes styles as opposed to the dpad. Is there anyway to remap that?

You want to enable Hardcore mode and Turbo mode at start. And play on Demon Hunter difficulty. You also want to mess with the Lock on settings.

You can remap anything but you want to have the Styles on the shoulder buttons because you need to hold them to activate them. Can't really do that with the D-pad.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

In addition to everything Dahbomb said, I personally would also put Gun Special attacks on D-pad down for excessive use of Rainstorm and Rev-Rainstorm for vertical positioning.

 

[xuchu]

What's the difference between evade 1 and 2. At the moment they do the same thing but does that change?

 

[Son Of Sparda]

What's the difference between evade 1 and 2. At the moment they do the same thing but does that change?

You mean L1 and R1? They do the same thing. You'll get two other variations of evade later on that you can pull off by being in their respective styles (though you still evade with the same button). One gives you the ability to do 3 successive fast evades (aka Nero's Table Hopper) and the other gives you a limited time damage boost when you evade an attack at the last second.

The latter was REALLY broken in vanilla, though they apparently fixed it in DE version.

 

[badcrumble]

What's the difference between evade 1 and 2. At the moment they do the same thing but does that change?

Yes and no. There are two evades (technically three - one normal and two special), but they require the use of holding a modifier button. The reason there are two evade buttons is to make the two special dodges simpler to pull off.

It's a waste of a button, IMO. Get yourself set up with lockon controls.

 

[xuchu]

Ah yes I have the Angel evade and demon evade but was just wondering if I could remap evade 2 to something else. If they do the same thing why did they feel the need to put two evade buttons? Oh well...

 

[badcrumble]

Ah yes I have the Angel evade and demon evade but was just wondering if I could remap evade 2 to something else. If they do the same thing why did they feel the need to put two evade buttons? Oh well...

Basically so you can jam down both shoulder buttons on one side or the other to produce an evade.

I'm not saying it's good reasoning, but that's the reasoning they went with.

For the record, I *do* think giving some sort of reward to players for executing a perfect dodge (a la Bayonetta, DmC, and DMC4 Nero) is a good idea that I'd like to see DMC5 use and expand upon, as well as equippable DT modifiers (with DMC3 Quicksilver and Doppelganger, my feeling is that those should either get expanded into full movesets or reduced to passive bonuses you can equip to your DT as well as things like increased regen, decreased DT consumption, Dreadnaught, et cetera).

Obviously the *main* reward for a successful perfect dodge should be that you don't take fucking damage and that you get a minor Style boost, but DMC4 introduced enough just-frame mechanics that I think the dodge is a logical place to go next with that set of ideas.

And, as Dahbomb has noted, a more accessible and more rewarding dodge (while it'd require some rethinking of the core controls, and I 100% understand people viewing that negatively) would allow for designing much more aggressive enemies into the game.

Along similar lines, I'd be down for just-frame mechanics for gun charge releases (or Drive) that'd work similarly to Full Steam with Gilgamesh.

 

[badcrumble]

p.s. when is the red dragon DT-release thing from DMC1 ever coming back?

 

[Dahbomb]

What's the difference between evade 1 and 2. At the moment they do the same thing but does that change?

It's the same thing, you want to use the extra button to map Lock On to it.

They mapped two buttons to it because they thought people played these games with one finger behind the controller not two. So you can do demon form hold then press the evade on the other side and vice versa. But thanks to DMC3, DMC fans are already used to playing with R1 and R2 at the same time so most people saw that as being redundant.

Along similar lines, I'd be down for just-frame mechanics for gun charge releases (or Drive) that'd work similarly to Full Steam with Gilgamesh.

DmC already has that. For guns and any charge attack really.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

It's not pure action but damn if it doesn't look good...

 

[xuchu]

Aquila buy-in into tornado is bit cheap. Instant SS ranks even on hardcore mode. Liking the game a lot more now that I've got access to all the weapons and most of moves. Gotten the hang of constantly switching weapons mid combo. While each of weapons alone lack depth and moves, collectively they work great.

The art style is great but story and characters are lackluster. Have a feeling that the game may have been received better if it hadn't been called DmC. But then again, they probably wouldn't have gotten the budget to even make a comparable game.

Overall liking the game on nephilim difficulty and eagerly looking forward to higher difficulties.