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[Men_in_Boxes]

Is Helldivers 2 an extraction shooter?

I would say it's debated. It lacks in the gear fear / risk department but I can see why some people label it as such.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

yes, only Men In Boxes got it right and now he is spreading the gospel

 

[bighugeguns]

I bought Tarkov a while ago but to me it's a full blown horror game, so haven't played it too much, the people into it get really into it and that's cool.

Same goes for Arc Raiders and the extraction genre in general, I guess. I can get how people would be passionate about the games.

As others have pointed out it's a banger of a spectator genre. I'm looking forward to COD DMZ making a return that was neat for me, I liked it more than regular Warzone, less terrifying than Tarkov.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

3. the genre has been around for a decade and people know it's trash by now.

 

[cormack12]

Halo reached more than 400,000 players on its open beta and was going to have a similar trajectory apparently. All titles and specifics aside, it comes down to

1. Is there a big enough audience for this on consoles

Given the consoles lack this - and I still believe Div 1 Dark Zone to be the best I've seen - there will be one game that becomes the de facto most played extraction shooter. Will it do huge numbers? No.

Can the extraction genre be rounded out to be a more meaningful and enjoyable game? Yes, and I'd be happy to discuss that in another thread, but I know you don't like to make them too often. The fundamental mechanics of hardcore extraction shooters with niche playerbases are not mass appeal, and instead of putting efforts into trimming the edges they need to rethink the actual mechanics. It's not hard.

I think when we get console figures for Tarkov and Steam CCU for Tarkov after 3 months people will be surprised.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

One million CCU.

So the Extraction genre can only grow, in your opinion, if ARC Raiders settles on a 1 million CCU average? You're setting the genre growth marker at 45x it's current size? Or am I misunderstanding?

If it is the next big thing it should hit that number easily. PUBG did over 3x that.

Have you ever seen how growth and maturity in the animal kingdom varies so wildly?

Elephants have an 18 year adolescent period.
The Turquoise Killfish (thanks Google) reaches full maturity 14 days after hatching.

Genre growth happens at varying rates. I don't expect we'll ever see a genre blow up as quickly as Battle Royale for the rest of our lives.

The ones that blow up with the zoomers and alphas who watch them are the meme games.

Hence, they are memes.

So were all the games that were popular when you were a kid just "meme games". Are all games that appeal to kids illegitimate? What is the age breakdown of Escape from Duckov btw?

 

[BennyBlanco]

Meme game

AAA banger


It's time to accept you are all principal Skinner

 

[diffusionx]

So the Extraction genre can only grow, in your opinion, if ARC Raiders settles on a 1 million CCU average? You're setting the genre growth marker at 45x it's current size? Or am I misunderstanding?

You are the one claiming this is some genre with massive untapped appeal, and also ARC raiders is the game that will tap it. So yea, why wouldn't it? It should get to 1 million players easily. It's even launching on multiple platforms unlike PUBG.

It seems like you are just trying to set up an out so if ARC fails you can claim that it "grew the genre" and Marathon or whatever will be the next one that shows how popular it is. Well, it doesn't really work that way.

So were all the games that were popular when you were a kid just "meme games". Are all games that appeal to kids illegitimate? What is the age breakdown of Escape from Duckov btw?

you evidently seem unfamiliar with what a meme is, so of course cannot wrap your head around a meme game, while everyone else understands perfectly well what it is.

 

[Fbh]

You are behind the times man. Extraction shooters is so 2024.
It's all about co-op meme climbing games now

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The fundamental mechanics of hardcore extraction shooters with niche playerbases are not mass appeal, and instead of putting efforts into trimming the edges they need to rethink the actual mechanics. It's not hard.

The future of the genre is not "hardcore Extraction shooter". The future of the genre is "Extraction adventure". I believe Embark is the first company to realize this.

People like to contribute to accomplishing difficult tasks. Deemphasizing aim skill and prioritizing the value of different playstyles will grow the genre immensely. That's why ARC Raiders has bigger market potential than Tarkov. They're already taking steps in the right direction.

 

[Sticks]

I barely extract files these days but Winzip for the win

 

[Ogbert]

Even if Escape from Duckov is a meme game, it's polished, forgiving and has a clear and satisfying sense of progression.

The majority of extraction shooters are just too hardcore for me. I can't handle getting ganked and losing everything. It's deeply, deeply unenjoyable.

 

[bighugeguns]

You are behind the times man. Extraction shooters is so 2024.
It's all about co-op meme climbing games now

This is some alternate reality shit where we're in here having pissing contests over "traditional" games with comparatively tiny numbers and out there in the world weird random bullshit pulls legitimate enormous figures.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You are the one claiming this is some genre with massive untapped appeal, and also ARC raiders is the game that will tap it. So yea, why wouldn't it? It should get to 1 million players easily. It's even launching on multiple platforms unlike PUBG.

Did Battlefield 6 even get to 1 million CCU?

It seems like you're setting your markers at ludicrous heights because you don't want to admit the genre is indeed growing.

I don't expect it to grow at this unimaginable space because the genre is innately complex. There's a million things ARC Raiders will do wrong as the genre is uncovered.

It seems like you are just trying to set up an out so if ARC fails you can claim that it "grew the genre" and Marathon or whatever will be the next one that shows how popular it is. Well, it doesn't really work that way.

My definition of genre growth is much more inline with realty. You estimate what the current genre size is and you see what percentage that size becomes after a new entry enters the field.

you evidently seem unfamiliar with what a meme is, so of course cannot wrap your head around a meme game, while everyone else understands perfectly well what it is.

It's clearly an murky term that warrants different perspectives.

 

[Catphish]

It's a niche genre. Most people I know don't like them, because of how unforgiving they are. As an example, there were no insured weapons in the ARC playtest. If that's how it's going to be going forward, and you lose every weapon you die in possession of, my group, who was so hyped for the release, will probably drop the game outright.

 

[Spyxos]

I find it too hardcore. I absolutely hate to lose my progress, and that's essential for this game type. It can be nice from time to time to play something different, like an extraction shooter, but it's nothing that I would play for a long time.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You are behind the times man. Extraction shooters is so 2024.
It's all about co-op meme climbing games now

Peak is still averaging 20k CCU 5 months after launch.

That's just a great innovative title.

Oh God, "meme game" is the new "Fortnite is a fad" thing isn't it.

Andy Dufrane hands raised during storm meme.

 

[R6Rider]

Is Helldivers 2 an extraction shooter?

No, it's not. I don't know why people keep claiming this. Sure you "extract" in the game, but you also extract in Splinter Cell.

 

[Zathalus]

The genre has been around for almost a decade now. It's pretty popular but I don't see it exploding in growth anytime soon. Arc Raiders numbers are good, but not genre defining good.

 

[Shmunter]

Not for me, no clear win condition, essentially a digital loot collector merry go round time sink.

 

[cormack12]

The future of the genre is not "hardcore Extraction shooter". The future of the genre is "Extraction adventure". I believe Embark is the first company to realize this.

People like to contribute to accomplishing difficult tasks. Deemphasizing aim skill and prioritizing the value of different playstyles will grow the genre immensely. That's why ARC Raiders has bigger market potential than Tarkov. They're already taking steps in the right direction.

I disagree. It's like sticking a different type of fabric on a munter

 

[Insane Metal]

I mean, you said a couple days ago that ARC Raiders will be the Game of the Generation and that we will remember it's industry altering launch the same way we remember Mario 64.

Did he really? Wow lol.

 

[Ogbert]

I find it too hardcore. I absolutely hate to lose my progress, and that's essential for this game type. It can be nice from time to time to play something different, like an extraction shooter, but it's nothing that I would play for a long time.

Division 1 had the perfect balance.

A single zone, a diversion from the main game, where you could chance your arm as a solo player and get lucky.

 

[KenaiPhoenix]

All games are built with the basic rule of "instant gratification", you need to have the blood pumping, the numbers with effects and more positive reinforcement to keep the normies hooked into your game (so they will buy more items on your ingame store).

Battle royale games works because they are not that hard to get into (you can even log in with your friends, making it even easier to put people in the hook), they give easy positive feedback with "rare", "legendary" and other items casually dropping, the stakes are not that high so even if you are close to get chicken dinner there is no frustration in just losing the match, you where going to start from zero anyways in your next game.

Extraction shooters works different: you have to scavenger for resources and try to keep them until you extract, you wont be doing the "yolo, lets wipe this other squad" because if you fail and get killed, there is a consequence by losing all the stuff you got. This let to being in a disadvantage position in the next game by have worse gear than the rest. This creates frustation and it goes against the principle of having your normies addicted to your game, so this kind of games will never get outside people that like these kind of games.

On a game design level: is a good mode with hide stakes, but it can (and will) get to an stalemate, people that are good will just keep getting good thanks to their gear, and new comers will leave or have to wait for a "server wipe" or there is not more fun than being the abused by players that play 24/7.

In short: no. This game mode was never going to be big by design, but companies keep pushing this because Fortnite and Warzone already cemented themselves as the kings of Battle royales, like when the crypto currencies initial boom passed and then people try to make NFT the next boom because they missed the first one.

 

[rm082e]

On Steam, Arc Raiders hit a peak concurrent player count of 189,668

Good for them. I'm happy to hear any news of a game doing well right now with the economy being what it is and a handful of forever-games sucking up almost all the oxygen in the room. I'm exhausted by all the stories of developers going out of business because they launched a game that I've never heard of, no one bought it, and now everyone is crying.

However:

• This was an open beta. The game costs $40 when it launches next Thursday. Let's check back at Thanksgiving and see what the numbers have been like after a month out. Again, I'm hoping it's a success story. I want independent studios to be profitable.
• Let's check back in Q2 '26 and see what the player count fall off has been like. Do they have a slow and gradual decline, or will they have lost 90%+ of their players?
• How do the other new shooters this holiday do? We know BF6 did well. How about this year's COD?
• Will see see Arc Raiders pulling people away from the forever games - Fortnite, COD, GTA Online, Minecraft, Roblox, etc.? If not, I wouldn't expect this genre to have real growth potential. If they just absorb the existing players in this genre for a while, that player base will move onto the next good one when it comes out.
• Google indicates Embark Studios have around 340 people and they're independent. That makes them a lot more flexible than a studio at a major publisher (publicly company) who are never satisfied with just breaking even or maintaining. Even if Arc Raiders carves out a niche in the market and is "successful" by their own standards, that doesn't mean this genre is going to "blow up" with PlayStation, Microsoft, Take Two, Ubisoft, etc. all chasing it.
• I suspect the executives at other game companies will take Arc Raiders as one data point, but they'll also be watching to see how Marathon does when it launches. If Arc Raiders is a success, but Marathon flops, what does their analysis of that data look like? I suspect it would be "...Meh? We don't know...", which is not a strong reason to go invest hundreds of millions chasing the genre.

Let's revisit at Thanksgiving and in the spring to see what the charts and graphs look like.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

If anyone wants to sensibly chuckle...

 

[bitbydeath]

No, it's not. I don't know why people keep claiming this. Sure you "extract" in the game, but you also extract in Splinter Cell.

If extraction shooters aren't about extracting and shooting then maybe it needs a new name?

 

[kevboard]

If extraction shooters aren't about extracting and shooting then maybe it needs a new name?

no it doesn't.
in extraction shooters the extraction is a core design element. in Helldivers 2 it is not.

Helldivers 2 "extractions" are just the end of the mission. you activate a console, and defend your point until the ship lands.

extraction shooters are called extraction shooters because you are essentially at all times potentially considering to extract.
extracting is a core strategic element.
you could go into a map, find some insane loot within 1min off of the first enemy player you kill, and extract as fast quickly as possible to bring the loot home.

and why do that? because if you die you lose EVERYTHING you carry (aside from maybe a special pocket you have that you can place small items in that you won't lose).
so you are constantly thinking "should I extract now? should I move on? maybe try do a quest I have?" and so on.

so extraction shooters are all about extracting loot, which you'd lose if you died.


contrary to Helldivers 2, where you start a mission, finish the mission, and go to the singular escape spot and fly away.
the only consideration here is if you do the optional stuff on the map or not. but extracting is not a constant strategic option you have to consider.


it's just like Survival games... surviving is an element of most games, but they are called survival games because you constantly think about the items you have in your limited inventory, and because you have to make sure to ration your resources and survive until the next save spot or until you come back to your home base etc.
often you also have hunger/thirst meters, but not necessarily.
this is also why Resident Evil 1 is a survival horror game. limited resources, limited saves, limited inventory, dying means resetting to the last save, potentially losing tons of progress. surviving is a core element... contrary to games with constant auto save checkpoints for example.

 

[bitbydeath]

no it doesn't.
in extraction shooters the extraction is a core design element. in Helldivers 2 it is not.

Helldivers 2 "extractions" are just the end of the mission. you activate a console, and defend your point until the ship lands.

extraction shooters are called extraction shooters because you are essentially at all times potentially considering to extract.
extracting is a core strategic element.
you could go into a map, find some insane loot within 1min off of the first enemy player you kill, and extract as fast quickly as possible to bring the loot home.

and why do that? because if you die you lose EVERYTHING you carry (aside from maybe a special pocket you have that you can place small items in that you won't lose).
so you are constantly thinking "should I extract now? should I move on? maybe try do a quest I have?" and so on.

so extraction shooters are all about extracting loot, which you'd lose if you died.


contrary to Helldivers 2, where you start a mission, finish the mission, and go to the singular escape spot and fly away.
the only consideration here is if you do the optional stuff on the map or not. but extracting is not a constant strategic option you have to consider.


it's just like Survival games... surviving is an element of most games, but they are called survival games because you constantly think about the items you have in your limited inventory, and because you have to make sure to ration your resources and survive until the next save spot or until you come back to your home base etc.
often you also have hunger/thirst meters, but not necessarily.
this is also why Resident Evil 1 is a survival horror game. limited resources, limited saves, limited inventory, dying means resetting to the last save, potentially losing tons of progress. surviving is a core element... contrary to games with constant auto save checkpoints for example.

Helldivers 2 also requires you to extract loot, if you die then your loot stays with your body until either you go back and reclaim it, or a teammate does.

And it is a constant requirement as the loot helps you level up.

 

[kevboard]

Helldivers 2 also requires you to extract loot, if you die then your loot stays with your body until either you go back and reclaim it, or a teammate does.

And it is a constant requirement as the loot helps you level up.

true. but you aren't constantly considering extraction.
you land, do the mission, extract.

there's no strategic consideration happening beyond that. and you don't lose stuff you bring with you. you lose the resources you found during that linear mission. it's like dying in any game with a mission structure that makes you redo the mission if you die.
you don't actually have the risk of losing anything, you just have the risk of not gaining stuff.

and again, at no point do you land find some rare crazy loot, and instantly go back to save the loot. that doesn't happen in Helldivers 2. but it happens in extraction shooters.
it's only an extraction game if extracting is a constant option, a constantly relevant strategic move to consider.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I just got struck by lightning, fell off my horse, and had a vision...

Everybody is saying ARC Raiders is opening the door for Marathon. That the market will be thirsty for the next big budget Extraction Shooter because ARC opened everyone's eyes.

This is true (even though the ceiling for Marathon is lower than ARC Raiders due to it's PvP focus).

The real story people aren't seeing yet is...(drum roll)...Fairgame$.

A heist based Extraction game will likely solve one of the genres current issues - lame quests. Hulst recently said that PlayStation has learned the value of product differentiation in the Live Service space. Fairgames won't step on Marathons toes. Its 3rd person camera, and more structured quests, will likely be viewed much more positively when we get the gameplay reveal.

Bookmark this. It makes too much sense.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Tried Arc Raiders as a way of checking out this new genre. It's not for me.

I appreciate all the tense moments that can pop up during a match, but nothing's guaranteed which means that in some matches nothing might happen, which is boring. There's also a lot of downtime, which is great for building up that tension but sometimes there's just no payoff for that.

I also hate how PvP encounters can be determined by stats more than skill. If my lvl2 shield has almost double capacity as a lvl1 shield then I can see myself winning most 1v1 encounters against lvl1 shield users.

I dunno. I'm no game designer, but I think the genre would benefit from a design that guarantees fairness in PvP encounters while keeping all the tension there. Maybe make the non-combat loot more valuable? Dunno.

So yeah not for me, but happy for everyone enjoying it and even happier about new genres coming out and being successful even today after so many years of gaming.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I dunno. I'm no game designer, but I think the genre would benefit from a design that guarantees fairness in PvP encounters while keeping all the tension there.

A complete misreading of the genre, imo.

Extraction is based on taking risks to benefit character power growth. It feels good because you're not earning a meaningless cosmetic, you're extracting with a gold weapon.

Fairness based game design is the old style of multi-player. The Finals, Overwatch etc...

This new era is about ecosystem, not fairness. It's about bears, wolves, and rabbits finding nourishment while trying to survive. This is the genre of life philosophers.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Extraction is based on taking risks to benefit character power growth. It feels good because you're not earning a meaningless cosmetic, you're extracting with a gold weapon.

I prefer when the "feel good" comes from a display of skill and not either luck with RNG drops or the amount of time I've spent grinding for mats.

Also, are people really using their best weapons? Or are they hoarding them in fear of losing them? Is there really a big incentive to carrying those into a match? Sure you'll have an adventage over everyone else but does the risk match the reward? (not arguing here, I'm legit asking lol)

But as I said, not for me. I'm not arguing about the genre's qualities, I just wanted to post my opinion on it while stating that it's not for me.

 

[BlackTron]

So he's already setting up a contingency in case ARC dies down, and then another contingency on that in case Marathon fails...may as well go for a bakers dozen long tail contingency gaas games man, like Jim Ryan

 

[MagiusNecros]

Anything that is labeled Extraction Shooter or is a PvPvE game is just a no go for me. Add a pure PvE component with the PvPvE optional or you can go away.

I prefer a Co-Op action game or FPS where you can play solo or with friends like Deep Rock Galactic with clear diagonal progression. You farm currency for rewards, upgrades or better gear.

I just don't find the FPS/TPS Roguelites with extra steps fun or interesting. It's perfect for people that enjoy masochism and love gambling for a rng loot drop.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I prefer when the "feel good" comes from a display of skill and not either luck with RNG drops or the amount of time I've spent grinding for mats.

I just think this means you're not into the new "ecosystem" design philosophy. That's perfectly fine, but I tend to think Extraction is firmly rooted in ecosystem design rather than "fair" design.

Also, are people really using their best weapons? Or are they hoarding them in fear of losing them? Is there really a big incentive to carrying those into a match? Sure you'll have an adventage over everyone else but does the risk match the reward? (not arguing here, I'm legit asking lol)

People naturally hoard weapons until they realize they're not getting any value with them sitting in the vault. The big guns start coming out when players set a lofty extraction goal.

But as I said, not for me. I'm not arguing about the genre's qualities, I just wanted to post my opinion on it while stating that it's not for me.

I don't mean to come off as defensive. I genuinely appreciate hearing the opinions from people I disagree with. I bless you with a dozen kisses.

 

[Generic]

Tried Arc Raiders as a way of checking out this new genre. It's not for me.

I appreciate all the tense moments that can pop up during a match, but nothing's guaranteed which means that in some matches nothing might happen, which is boring. There's also a lot of downtime, which is great for building up that tension but sometimes there's just no payoff for that.

I also hate how PvP encounters can be determined by stats more than skill. If my lvl2 shield has almost double capacity as a lvl1 shield then I can see myself winning most 1v1 encounters against lvl1 shield users.

I dunno. I'm no game designer, but I think the genre would benefit from a design that guarantees fairness in PvP encounters while keeping all the tension there. Maybe make the non-combat loot more valuable? Dunno.

So yeah not for me, but happy for everyone enjoying it and even happier about new genres coming out and being successful even today after so many years of gaming.

Marathon will fix these issues.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I just think this means you're not into the new "ecosystem" design philosophy

100%

But still excited to see where this genre goes next. Innovation might not be for me right now but we never know what games or new ideas might pop out from this one.

I bless you with a dozen kisses.

Same for you man, and I hope you keep getting a lot of fun from the game.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'd be down for an offline single-player, story-driven extraction shooter

 

[TintoConCasera]

I'd be down for an offline single-player, story-driven extraction shooter

Don't know about the story-driven part, but reading your post reminded me of Quasimorph.

 

[Dorfdad]

The problem I have with the genre is that it seems to cater to more toxic audience. Take for example ARC raiders. The first map is supposed to be an entry into the genre and one day 1 people were figuring things out and people were cool. Helping each other to learn and fight against the AI, 25 hours later that Same map has people with upgraded shields, weapons, and more camping extraction points and killing new players for lols.

I'd rather have a game with really tough AI that forces random survivors to find each other and work together to survive.

Nothing worse than spending your few precious hours gaming to get griefed by sweats or toxic people IMHO.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Don't know about the story-driven part, but reading your post reminded me of Quasimorph.

I just like the idea of a game where you go to an area or areas to loot stuff, then slowly uncovers some type of grander narrative the more you do and the deeper you go.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Seems like a genre for streamers. Not for me at all. Maybe if they had PVE modes with variable sized squads it would be a fun game with friends on occasion, but these type of games are just too sweaty for me at this point in my life. As a general rule I stay away from PvP games popular with streamers.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

So he's already setting up a contingency in case ARC dies down, and then another contingency on that in case Marathon fails...may as well go for a bakers dozen long tail contingency gaas games man, like Jim Ryan

ARC Raiders will "die down" as almost all big launch games do. It'll settle at a nice, enviable position where the rest of the market says "We have to figure out what ARC Raiders did that our titles aren't doing." Pay attention to the Stella Montis bump later this month too.

But make no mistake, the Rubicon has been crossed. We're going to get wave after wave of this genre. Buy low on Fairgame$. That gameplay reveal will be one to keep an eye on.

 

[bender]

Are you really going to compare a meme game to profitability of a whole genre?

Have you seen his other threads and the basic concepts he misconstrues?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Have you seen his other threads and the basic concepts he misconstrues?

Typing this in this very thread is...

 

[BlackTron]

ARC Raiders will "die down" as almost all big launch games do. It'll settle at a nice, enviable position where the rest of the market says "We have to figure out what ARC Raiders did that our titles aren't doing." Pay attention to the Stella Montis bump later this month too.

But make no mistake, the Rubicon has been crossed. We're going to get wave after wave of this genre. Buy low on Fairgame$. That gameplay reveal will be one to keep an eye on.

It's easy to predict others will try to emulate its success. There were lots of battle royale games too, but only a few really stuck and "captured hearts and minds". I suspect the genre will have a few standout games at any given time, like most do. I'm not seeing why we treat each legitimate success as "proof" the genre will take gaming itself by storm though.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It's easy to predict others will try to emulate its success. There were lots of battle royale games too, but only a few really stuck and "captured hearts and minds". I suspect the genre will have a few standout games at any given time, like most do. I'm not seeing why we treat each legitimate success as "proof" the genre will take gaming itself by storm though.

There's more to it than that.

First, we're going to get 5 or 6 bigger Extraction Shooters over the next few years. None of those are a result of ARC Raiders. They're all the result of designers looking at the genre pillars, seeing Escape from Tarkov succeed, and understanding there's undiscovered territory here. It's a designers dream genre because there's so much room for creativity.

Additionally, youprobably know I've been pretty interested in understanding why places like NeoGAF don't like multi-player. In all of my searching, I'd argue there's essentially 5 - 7 core reasons why SP gamers reject MP. This genre addresses the majority of those issues.

I've read a number of players saying "I don't typically like PvP but I decided to give this a shot and I'm loving it."

This is not your typical genre. ARC Raiders is the adolescent Orca Whale. It'll dominate the ocean in a few years. ARC Raiders success is just a ping telling us believers we were on the right track.

 

[Clintizzle]

The Extraction Genre makes sense for the unemployed.