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[NecrosaroIII]

With the coming of One DND (basically 6th edition), Wizards of the Coast has decided to make controversial updates to its OGL, which was designed to build up the community.

Last week Gizmodo leaked the changes and it has the community pretty upset.

https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-ogl-announcement-wizards-of-the-coast-1849981365

Essentially Wizards owns any content you create under the OGL, and you have to pay them 25% royalties for anything generating over 750,000 dollars. There is a lot more to it than that but in my mind those are the big ones.

DND 5e is a huge success due to content creators such as Critical Role and so now famous influencers are calling on fans to cancel their DND subs to send a message (DND Beyond has since hidden their cancel subscription page).

Wizards was suppose to have a live stream tonight to announce the changes but it appears to have cancelled.

On one hand, it's sad to see this happen. I love DND, and it's tough because they just announced a tv series, plus the upcoming movie. But they've also been watering down content ever since it hit mainstream so maybe it will go back to how it was if the Fandom cools off

 

[TransTrender]

I think it's better to say that DND and Magic have been collapsing while under the control of Wizards of the Coast and has been accelerated when they moved under the Hasbro corporation.
Absolute demolishing of long standing franchises for the need of all the money and perpetual growth.

 

[Ownage]

I wish for unlimited wishes.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

I think it's better to say that DND and Magic have been collapsing while under the control of Wizards of the Coast and has been accelerated when they moved under the Hasbro corporation.
Absolute demolishing of long standing franchises for the need of all the money and perpetual growth.

I've only been playing since Wizards took over, but I thought 3rd Edition back when i started in 2001 was pretty sick. Didn't get to play 3.5 because I was a broke ass kid, and 4th was ugly so I ignored it. But I was largely impressed with 5th edition, until about 2020.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I heard about this on the WAN show last week. Sounds shitty for the fans. They can kiss their success goodbye with a move like this

 

[badblue]

I wish for unlimited wishes.

 

[AJUMP23]

Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[LordCBH]

Paizo’s website is crashing due to traffic now, and they just announced a new open rpg license. I’m hawking my 5e books and going PF.

 

[Spaceman292]

Are they trying to monetise imagination?

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Paizo’s website is crashing due to traffic now, and they just announced a new open rpg license. I’m hawking my 5e books and going PF.

Are they developing their own system that is divorced from the SDR?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

What kind of company demands a 25% royalty? lol

 

[LordCBH]

Are they developing their own system that is divorced from the SDR?

From what they’re saying 2E doesn’t need the OGL, so I assume they’re sticking with that. I’m hoping we get a new edition of Starfinder at some point though.

 

[AJUMP23]

Are they trying to monetise imagination?

No just monetize a percent of what you monetize. They want a taste.

 

[Lasha]

What kind of company demands a 25% royalty? lol

The proposed arrangement is 25% of revenue in excess of $750,000. A project generating $750,001 in sales would net $750,000.75 while paying WotC $0.25 in royalties. More beneficial licenses will be negotiable for creators whose revenue regularly exceeds the limits established in the new license.

 

[Fbh]

Always funny seeing companies go all woke on the surface while in the background they step it up with corporate greed.

But at least orcs are no longer evil!

 

[PaddyOCanager]

The OGL grew them to an 85% market share, essentially THE option for Table Top RPG systems. The shear hubris and idiocy of WoTC to think creators would just accept the revoking of the license is unbelievable. Creators and companies outside of WoTC have been relying on that license for over 20 years, and have kept the D&D brand on top through its usage.

Now, you've essentially taken an ecosystem with ZERO competition and invited EVERYONE to compete against your product. These competitors have 20+ years of experience, established consumer bases, and are not sitting in an ivory tower of complacency. You've also destroyed your goodwill and reputation among the community. Furthermore, you are deeply invested in the success of your brand new, fully digital service launching next year that is rumored to be closed to third parties and heavily monetized to squeeze as much money out of your customers as possible.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Oh shit!

 

[PSYGN]

Someone should invent Dragons & Dungeons.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Always funny seeing companies go all woke on the surface while in the background they step it up with corporate greed.

But at least orcs are no longer evil!

Apparently their rival,Paizo, has a new system they're working on with its only open license. It's called ORC

 

[Esca]

This makes me real sad and angry. Companies that don't realize they got as big as they did is because of their fans and policies. This let's milk them first it drives new people west from even trying serving the fans are probably paying a hefty amount in your products as it is jfc

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

More like Wizards of the Toast

 

[AJUMP23]

God only asked for 10% WOTC wants 25%.

 

[pramod]

Paizo should build on their Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, it's a good system.

 

[pramod]

From what they’re saying 2E doesn’t need the OGL, so I assume they’re sticking with that. I’m hoping we get a new edition of Starfinder at some point though.

Do you mean 3E?
2E is like Advanced D&D, really ancient stuff but it would be cool with me, lol.

 

[SJRB]

Archaic management completely out of touch, inherently greedy and actively vilifying their userbase in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Can't say I feel bad for WotC at this point. This is like textbook "how not to treat your userbase".

 

[Dirk Benedict]

This always happens when you take something over that is successful, then trying to put your own spin on things, just to fuck up WHY it was successful in the first place. I welcome the downfall, but at the same time I feel for the passionate people who genuinely Love the game.

 

[NiiloPielinen]

 

[Wildebeest]

I don't think they understand how many lawyers play Pathfinder and are willing to circle the wagons around it.

 

[ironmang]

Not surprised to see this happening to DND after I watched WOTC/Hasbro ruin MTG for years. They know customers are too invested to quit so they just go full greed.

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

Not surprised to see this happening to DND after I watched WOTC/Hasbro ruin MTG for years. They know customers are too invested to quit so they just go full greed.

The big stone is the money they want

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Essentially Wizards owns any content you create under the OGL, and you have to pay them 25% royalties for anything generating over 750,000 dollars.

Business, how does it work?

 

[Wildebeest]

Business, how does it work?

Don't ask WotC that now because they are too busy immolating their own business due to not understand their own market.

 

[LordCBH]

Do you mean 3E?
2E is like Advanced D&D, really ancient stuff but it would be cool with me, lol.

There’s only 2 editions of PF right now.

1E is basically D&D3.75, and 2E is very different from it.

 

[Pagusas]

Help an outsider understand please. If anyone is making more than 750k on something, then its turned into a small business, why should the IP owners not get some sorta payment for their licence being used in a business venture? Epic gives away unreal engine for free until you make 1 million in sales from it, and everyone sees that as an amazing thing that spures on use of the engine and supports new businesses, is this different then that?

 

[DeepEnigma]

We know the real reason it's collapsing.

 

[SJRB]

Help an outsider understand please. If anyone is making more than 750k on something, then its turned into a small business, why should the IP owners not get some sorta payment for their licence being used in a business venture? Epic gives away unreal engine for free until you make 1 million in sales from it, and everyone sees that as an amazing thing that spures on use of the engine and supports new businesses, is this different then that?

It goes beyond demanding royalties though.

Imagine if Epic let people use the Unreal engine for free for decades. People built great things using Unreal, everybody loves Unreal and it attracts more people to Unreal than ever before. Epic makes a decent buck selling manuals and guides and whatever.

Then Epic suddenly says that from this moment on everyone making 750,000 with Unreal has to hand over 25%. This is implemented retroactively, and you have to hand Epic all your income administration. Epic can also terminate your license whenever they please, or increase royalty whenever they want.

You also have to register everything you do with Unreal regardless of how much money you make, and Epic has the right to take your content and do whatever it pleases with it without paying you a single dime.

It's a full-blown assault on creators. Creators who are almost single-handedly responsible for their product's popularity. It's just an incredibly dumb, shortsighted and draconian way to squeeze money out of your userbase.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I dont follow all this D&D and WOTC licensing stuff, but in a nutshell is this what's going on?

- WOTC currently allows other companies to make D&D content
- Currently zero fees(?)
- WOTC wants to charge companies 25% royalty fees going forward if their product hits $750k of sales

Anything else I miss? Or is there more to it?

 

[Pagusas]

It goes beyond demanding royalties though.

Imagine if Epic let people use the Unreal engine for free for decades. People built great things using Unreal, everybody loves Unreal and it attracts more people to Unreal than ever before. Epic makes a decent buck selling manuals and guides and whatever.

Then Epic suddenly says that from this moment on everyone making 750,000 with Unreal has to hand over 25%. This is implemented retroactively, and you have to hand Epic all your income administration. Epic can also terminate your license whenever they please, or increase royalty whenever they want.

You also have to register everything you do with Unreal regardless of how much money you make, and Epic has the right to take your content and do whatever it pleases with it without paying you a single dime.

It's a full-blown assault on creators. Creators who are almost single-handedly responsible for their product's popularity. It's just an incredibly dumb, shortsighted and draconian way to squeeze money out of your userbase.

ah thank you, that all helps clear this up. Seems like they could have avoided this mess by just saying "past creations are grandfathered in, and new creations are yours except for any licensed content you use in them." I can fully see the licensing is a complicated issue, but yeah this seems to draconian in implimentation.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[Kimahri]

I dont follow all this D&D and WOTC licensing stuff, but in a nutshell is this what's going on?

- WOTC currently allows other companies to make D&D content
- Currently zero fees(?)
- WOTC wants to charge companies 25% royalty fees going forward if their product hits $750k of sales

Anything else I miss? Or is there more to it?

Yes, a lot. They can now change the agreement and only give you 30 days notice, you accept to this if you sign.

They also own everything you make. So if you're Kobold press and you're gonna do a new bestiary book or something, they can now take that content and use it as they wish without paying you.

And they want 20% off of any Kickstarters I believe. There's even more than that.

Thing is, this would kill small creators. They don't have the means to pay this money, they're barely making it work as is, most of them

Sure, the 25% only affects a very few companies right now, but they could change that tomorrow to inclue smaller companies, and you already agreed to accept those terms if you sign.

It's absolute insanity on the part of WotC

 

[Wildebeest]

Help an outsider understand please. If anyone is making more than 750k on something, then its turned into a small business, why should the IP owners not get some sorta payment for their licence being used in a business venture? Epic gives away unreal engine for free until you make 1 million in sales from it, and everyone sees that as an amazing thing that spures on use of the engine and supports new businesses, is this different then that?

You have two things here, which are the IP and engine. The OGL already ring fences "distinctive IP" of DND, so what you are left with are often fairly generic things like orcs and dragons which are not really worth handing over 25% of your income to "licence" from Hasbro. Hasbro are already aggressive in saying that third party content cannot use words that hint that their content might be compatible with Dungeons and Dragons. Then the engine of the rule system, I suppose it could be argued that using their rules breaks down barriers in terms of getting new players on board for third party content, as they are currently seen as easy to understand and not too involved. But again they cannot claim they have the right to defend concepts like hit points, experience or rolling 20 sided dice.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yes, a lot. They can now change the agreement and only give you 30 days notice, you accept to this if you sign.

They also own everything you make. So if you're Kobold press and you're gonna do a new bestiary book or something, they can now take that content and use it as they wish without paying you.

And they want 20% off of any Kickstarters I believe. There's even more than that.

Thing is, this would kill small creators. They don't have the means to pay this money, they're barely making it work as is, most of them

Sure, the 25% only affects a very few companies right now, but they could change that tomorrow to inclue smaller companies, and you already agreed to accept those terms if you sign.

It's absolute insanity on the part of WotC

I dont follow the industry or know how big these independent creators are, but going by the 25% that's huge. Then again who knows how many creators even hit that amount.

I just was interested at how big the % is. Every company I've worked at with licensing (ie. superhero, disney, toy franchises) have around a 5% cut. And these are established characters and brands, so you'd think the license holder would grill us to the bone. But 5% and good convincing we can make a quality product from it is good enough to secure an agreement. 25% sounds insane. We'd probably breakeven or lose money on some stuff if it was that high. And our stuff sells a lot more than hitting a $750k threshold before it takes effect. That first $750k is nothing for us.

And aside from taking back the characters when the contract is over (from what I've seen it can be multiple years like 2-3 at a time), no franchise holder owns anything but the characters. They cant take or own the actual product like a stuffed animal like it's their creation.

When the license ends, no product can be shipped out. But there are times the license holder may agree to let us ship out whatever inventory we have left but thats it. But sometimes they are more strict and say no more. So any leftover product we have either gets destroyed or given out like candy to employees as overstocked inventory.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

Help an outsider understand please. If anyone is making more than 750k on something, then its turned into a small business, why should the IP owners not get some sorta payment for their licence being used in a business venture? Epic gives away unreal engine for free until you make 1 million in sales from it, and everyone sees that as an amazing thing that spures on use of the engine and supports new businesses, is this different then that?

You have to follow the inception of the OGL and its intent. The comparison to the Unreal Engine doesn't really work in this case.

The creation of the OGL was for mutually beneficial reasons. D&D nearly collapsed during the 4th edition for a number of reasons I won't digress discussing. The guy who came up with the OGL worked for WoTC and had a brilliant idea that would secure D&D as the top dog forever. Rather than having a dozen or so TTRPG companies with separate game systems all competing in the space, WoTC would "openly source out" D&D base mechanics, spells, items, character creation, etc etc. They'd still maintain their original IP characters and such though.

This allowed third parties to create adventure content that was easily compatible with anything D&D related. The OGL became the essential template for anyone entering the space. You could write a wholly original adventure where existing D&D characters could hop into without skipping a beat. Vice Versa, characters created in your adventure could hop into a D&D written adventure. TTRPGs are essentially imaginary, so getting everyone to play in YOUR imaginary space is huge and it worked. D&D went from approximately 50% market share pre-OGL to approximately 85% market share. People running third party adventures still bought D&D branded miniatures, dice, and other D&D branded products which is where the real money is anyway.

The worst part though, is that third parties were understandably suspicious of the OGL at first. WotC actually sent lawyers to third party competitors to explain that it wasn't a trap, and it was an irrevocable license agreement. This is what convinced many of them to jump on board in the first place 20 years ago. Entire businesses were built and grew under the OGL agreement - which by the way, still holds up legally however many creators don't have the funds to fight WoTC in court over it and they know it.

People seem to be focusing on the $750,000 royalty clause, but that is the least impactful part of the rumored changes. Under the new OGL, WoTC has the right to seize or shut down ANY project they want as long as they send a 30-day notice. This could affect even the smallest YouTube creator if WoTC doesn't like that person, and given the current political climate........................yeah. Oh, and they reserve the right to make changes at will to the OGL going forward.

WotC nuked their own ecosystem. Now their largest competitor is creating a new OGL and all these third-party companies are flocking to it because their financial livelihood depends on it. What WoTC leadership failed to understand is that the OGL essentially made D&D what it is today. They simply saw money left on the table and tried to snatch it. The OGL was keeping competitors from becoming actual competition, allowing WoTC to essentially run a monopoly that everyone was OK with. Now it's the Wild West, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You have to follow the inception of the OGL and its intent. The comparison to the Unreal Engine doesn't really work in this case.

The creation of the OGL was for mutually beneficial reasons. D&D nearly collapsed during the 4th edition for a number of reasons I won't digress discussing. The guy who came up with the OGL worked for WoTC and had a brilliant idea that would secure D&D as the top dog forever. Rather than having a dozen or so TTRPG companies with separate game systems all competing in the space, WoTC would "openly source out" D&D base mechanics, spells, items, character creation, etc etc. They'd still maintain their original IP characters and such though.

This allowed third parties to create adventure content that was easily compatible with anything D&D related. The OGL became the essential template for anyone entering the space. You could write a wholly original adventure where existing D&D characters could hop into without skipping a beat. Vice Versa, characters created in your adventure could hop into a D&D written adventure. TTRPGs are essentially imaginary, so getting everyone to play in YOUR imaginary space is huge and it worked. D&D went from approximately 50% market share pre-OGL to approximately 85% market share. People running third party adventures still bought D&D branded miniatures, dice, and other D&D branded products which is where the real money is anyway.

The worst part though, is that third parties were understandably suspicious of the OGL at first. WotC actually sent lawyers to third party competitors to explain that it wasn't a trap, and it was an irrevocable license agreement. This is what convinced many of them to jump on board in the first place 20 years ago. Entire businesses were built and grew under the OGL agreement - which by the way, still holds up legally however many creators don't have the funds to fight WoTC in court over it and they know it.

People seem to be focusing on the $750,000 royalty clause, but that is the least impactful part of the rumored changes. Under the new OGL, WoTC has the right to seize or shut down ANY project they want as long as they send a 30-day notice. This could affect even the smallest YouTube creator if WoTC doesn't like that person, and given the current political climate........................yeah. Oh, and they reserve the right to make changes at will to the OGL going forward.

WotC nuked their own ecosystem. Now their largest competitor is creating a new OGL and all these third-party companies are flocking to it because their financial livelihood depends on it. What WoTC leadership failed to understand is that the OGL essentially made D&D what it is today. They simply saw money left on the table and tried to snatch it. The OGL was keeping competitors from becoming actual competition, allowing WoTC to essentially run a monopoly that everyone was OK with. Now it's the Wild West, and let the chips fall where they may.

I dont know how loose the OGL was before, but to me I think it's fair if the parent company gets something out of it. Even though you said they collapsed in the past and needed third party support, it gets to a point I think they should get something. No different than any other license holder.

But from what it looks like based off you guys have recapped above, it's just too much $$$ and control shot out at once. Especially since the creators arent giant corporations like where I work at where traditional licensing agreements are done all the time and either side can absorb any raw deals that happen.

 

[Wildebeest]

I dont know how loose the OGL was before, but to me I think it's fair if the parent company gets something out of it. Even though you said they collapsed in the past and needed third party support, it gets to a point I think they should get something. No different than any other license holder.

But from what it looks like based off you guys have recapped above, it's just too much $$$ and control shot out at once. Especially since the creators arent giant corporations like where I work at where traditional licensing agreements are done all the time and either side can absorb any raw deals that happen.

They are not a parent company, as they currently own nothing. This is a land grab where they try to con people into signing a new abusive contract. Pure and simple.

 

[ClanOfNone]

The negative press/backlash surrounding this has been pretty impressive, I wonder if wotc will stay the course or hit the brakes.
Paizo's statement was pretty great, they will work with some other big names to develop a system agnostic truly open license called Orc.

 

[Kadve]

Didn't the 4th edition pretty much kill this game already? Cant see this doing anymore damage.

 

[ManaByte]

This could affect even the smallest YouTube creator if WoTC doesn't like that person, and given the current political climate........................yeah. Oh, and they reserve the right to make changes at will to the OGL going forward.

Yup. Some YouTuber running a campaign with evil Drow will be shut down immediately.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

I dont know how loose the OGL was before, but to me I think it's fair if the parent company gets something out of it. Even though you said they collapsed in the past and needed third party support, it gets to a point I think they should get something. No different than any other license holder.

But from what it looks like based off you guys have recapped above, it's just too much $$$ and control shot out at once. Especially since the creators arent giant corporations like where I work at where traditional licensing agreements are done all the time and either side can absorb any raw deals that happen.

They do get something out of it....hell, they got everything. They want everything and more.

You can't patent tabletop game mechanics. You can't patent "goblins" or "orcs", they're fair use. Much of the stuff D&D uses is generic fantasy tropes. Any distinct IP, WotC still keeps and you can't use without paying. WotC's OGL essentially got everyone in this market to play and produce content for their game instead of competing against their game. It's not the same as the licensing for the products you're talking about. You're also ignoring the intent of the OGL. WotC intentionally created and wanted this ecosystem, and now they're destroying it.

Didn't the 4th edition pretty much kill this game already? Cant see this doing anymore damage.

Lol no. Critical Role (a D&D channel) makes $400,000 per month on Twitch. D&D rakes in $150 million every year. The whole reason WotC is updating the OGL is because it's so massively popular and so much money is being made. WotC wants more of it.

 

[anthraticus]

Faaaak Wizards of the Woke Coast. Long live TSR ! keep it old school

 

[ManaByte]