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[brian0057]

Mechanics.
Because I like videogames.

 

[The artful mincer]

when I first played Dark Souls I literally never read anything, didn't really listen to what characters have to say, didn't read any lore online, yet loved the game. I even skipped the intro cutscene.

I didn't watch a single MGS cutscene until I was like 18, and played the first 2 games a shitload of times before that.

lore and world building also isn't the same as story.
and especially not the same as story driven.

"story driven" games is just a synonym for bad gamedesign at this point. as many devs have zero interesting gameplay concepts, don't know how to properly design levels, and just lean on flashy motion capture cutscenes, slow walking bullshit and constant talking to pat out the gamedesign wasteland they created.

Okay....but lore and world building is totally story even if you ignore it

 

[Knightime_X]

I'm a simple man.
If there is a big baddie and they want to destroy shit, I'll happily kill them.
The story is practically done, just make it fun to play.

 

[Party McHardy]

Game = mechanics.

Personally, if I wanted a story I would watch a film or read a book.

 

[Fuz]

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Most stories in movies and books suck hard too. That complaint is completely clueless, get a grip on reality.

Also story =/= plot

from the BBC's "top 10 stories that shaped the world" (i edited one... try your hardest to find it).

1. The Odyssey (Homer, 8th Century BC)
2. Uncle Tom's Cabin (Harriet Beecher Stowe, 1852)
3. Frankenstein (Mary Shelley, 1818)
4. Nineteen Eighty-Four (George Orwell, 1949)
5. Things Fall Apart (Chinua Achebe, 1958)
6. One Thousand and One Nights (various authors, 8th-18th centuries)
7. Don Quixote (Miguel de Cervantes, 1605-1615)
8. Hamlet (William Shakespeare, 1603)
9. Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball (Temco, Team Ninja, 2003)
10. The Iliad (Homer, 8th Century BC)

 

[Thirty7ven]

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

People who only play for stories are so odd, I mean there are other places to consume stories why not try that?

This. Stories in games are almost always written by third-grade, mentally retarded try hards not good enough to write proper novels or screen plays. Playing games for their stories is basically like drinking coffee for its nutrients.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

This had been debated to death in game dev community, I will not write a whole essay here, you could check some information yourself. The TLDR here is, lore does not equal to storytelling, a game could have rich lore such as Souls game, but they do not equal to storytelling like most linear story driven game does, they had different aesthetic to them. (Its not that lore is any less important, its just that they are different)

If you'd had paid close attention, you'd have realized I didn't use the terms, "story-telling" or "narrative".

Both the OP and I use the term "story" as a generic catch-all to encompass lore, plot, narrative (i.e. story-telling), character development, and story pacing.

And this is where you've spoken past the point I'm making. I wasn't talking about lore.

For games, lore is only important in certain types of games. In fact, for most games, lore is not important to a great gameplay experience almost at all.

Games like Halo demonstrate this aptly, by having tremendous extra-game lore, but the games themselves utterly fail in converting that expanded universe lore into a competent or compelling narrative, plot, and character development, i.e. story, experienced by the player within the confines of the game.

I would argue games like the Soulborne games and BoTW are also great examples of this, i.e. games with great lore, but actually rather minimalist/poor story-telling.

Games such as RDR2 that had both good storytelling and mechanic however was constantly under criticism by many that its story element and gameplay element felt isolated to each other. The story element work under different rule than its story part. Meaning its story element was competing against its mechanic element (especially its open world exploration part of mechanic), instead of complement each other.

I'm baffled by this critique and I fundamentally disagree.

RDR and GTA games weave story into their gameplay mechanics and game systems. There are no gameplay systems nor mechanics that are not contextualized in a combination of narrative, sub-plot, character development and world-building.

Every action and interactivity between the player and the gameworld is properly set against the backdrop of the wild west or modern American setting.

Some of the activities might be disconnected from the game's main plot, but the only impact of that is the narrative pacing of the main plot, and that isn't a negative at all, but rather an inescapable artifact of the game's open-world game design. It's the same for all side quests and free-roam sandbox activities.

The mistake that you're making is equating narrative pacing with story. Narrative pacing isn't even important in the grand scheme of game design, so long as your main campaign story beats are properly distributed across the individual missions through the main campaign.

A better work around would be games like Elden Ring and Botw, however although their game design was more unison between the two, it also had to compromise on the storytelling part, they had to keep it lore centric instead of forced narrative.

Not at all.

You're just giving examples of games with virtually no narrative, character development, and very simple plots... games that lean heavily into optional readable lore and environmental story-telling and worldbuilding.

These games are not examples of the peak of the medium in terms of pushing both story-telling and gameplay. They're gameplay-systems-and-mechanics-heavy games, lauded for those qualities overall, that place almost no emphasis at all on providing the player with anything but the barest minimum narrative or character development. It's all lore and world-building through passive means.

For most players who don't care about the story, those games simply don't put any narrative focus at all in the way of the gameplay. They're the very definition of this false dichotomy of story vs gameplay, and I would argue strongly that they suffer greatly for it.

I'm a gamer who does care about story in games as well as gameplay, and so those games you mention just can't hold my interest. They take the lazy route, imho, and put all story in the background as if to say, it's there to read about in text files and NPC narrated exposition if you care... That's not a positive... not at all.

Don't get me wrong. They're mechanically sound, excellent games. But as an example of games that do both story and gameplay really well, they're not even close to the top of the list.

Devs need to understand, that environmental story-telling, is not really story-telling. It's just world-building, which is one part of what makes for a great game story; but alone (unless the game is intended to be a silent adventure like Journey or Flower) it ends up giving little more than window dressing to a game.

 

[Laptop1991]

Have to say both, a good story with bad game mechanic's is no good and while not as bad the other way round, i would still want some story even if the game plays well.

 

[West Texas CEO]

Both.

For example, Final Fantasy VIII is a great mechanic driven AND a story driven game.

 

[thefool]

Mechanic always. I can't tell you the story of 99% games i've played.

 

[Loope]

Both if possible. If not, i prefer mechanics.

Actually i'm playing through UC4 and although it's kind of boring during the story intermissions etc. the gameplay is actually quite fun and varied. Really enjoy the arenas they built.

 

[Draxon Gamer]

What if the story is integrated or related to the mechanics?

 

[CGNoire]

Mechanics cause every medium owes it to itself to lean into its strengths and games are not movies.

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

I'd much rather pop on a podcast and play a game. That's why I love Fromsoft games. There's such deep lore that I can read while also loving the depth of gameplay.

 

[HazukiSensei]

Because FROM game doesn’t have a story, because if the story is not spoon fed for you with cutscenes my man can’t follow it.

Lol it can be followed. It just isnt exactly fulfilling, nor requiring any skill in execution. Being that they dont actually have to tell the story or develop characters.

Creating characters, and arcs you actually care about through a game medium is a skill. Something I'm not sure FROM is capable of....and masks it through their methods...

Btw, insulting the pantheon of great titles with stories in order to high brow one dev, FROM, who is clearly incapable of doing this, is a casual gamer move.

Luckily FROM got the industry to believe the idea that if you play their game, you are hardcore.

In reality they just forced alot of casual gamers who play games on normal to play on hard for once lol

And it let those same casuals finally play a japanese action game without demanding inputs like DMC, top it off with it controlling like a shooter, and you have exactly why its more popular in the west than it is in japan.

 

[HazukiSensei]

I'd much rather pop on a podcast and play a game. That's why I love Fromsoft games. There's such deep lore that I can read while also loving the depth of gameplay.

You'd rather play a podcast while playing instead of playing say...a metal gear? That requires you to listen to it?

You guys just dont like games that much tbh...

 

[sainraja]

Both? I never get why some people want every game to be the same.

Some games I really enjoy for their world, stories and characters, like The Witcher 3, The Mass Effect Trilogy or 13 Sentinels.
Others I primarily like for their mechanics and gameplay like Bayonetta, The Outer Wilds, Sekiro, the souls games, etc
Others I think strike a good balance between the two like God of War 2018, Nier Automata, Chained Echoes, Xenoblade 2, etc.

^^ This. 100% this.
Many people don't understand this and like to push their opinions on you. They have a weird, antagonistic, elitist attitude as well that is unbearable.

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

You'd rather play a podcast while playing instead of playing say...a metal gear? That requires you to listen to it?

You guys just dont like games that much tbh...

Mmm I mean it really depends. It's variable, really. But yeah, I do prefer the fun of game mechanics over following a story. I get that it seems counterintuitive.. but I'm also not saying that I don't take time to pay attention to games that seem to have a story I'd be interested in.

I definitely like games. But I like GAMEPLAY the most. Idk man it's a weird thing to explain.

I'd venture to say that a lot of games these days aren't worth paying attention to the story. Maybe that's why I feel how I feel.

Understand that this is coming from a guy whose all-time favorite game was Max Payne 2. That was very story driven and atmospheric. More than anything I wish more games would go back to this, but I just don't find their stories gripping or worth investing in these days

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This. Stories in games are almost always written by third-grade, mentally retarded try hards not good enough to write proper novels or screen plays. Playing games for their stories is basically like drinking coffee for its nutrients.

Made even worse by the shitty acting and voice actors.

I dont know how much money high budget games put into writers and actors, but to me they sure arent getting their moneys worth.

The typical indie film shown at film festivals can somehow have better scripts and acting despite being made on shoestring budgets with no-names.

 

[dreamcastluvr]

Both is obviously optimal. But for video games, mechanics are far more important than story. If I wanted a story, I would read a book or watch a movie. But if you give me a game with fun mechanics and attractive visuals, a good story will simply enhance it.

 

[Naked Lunch]

uhh what?
Mechanics. Im into videogames to play them. Its not rocket science.

People who play games for story are in the wrong medium. Thats what books are for. Game stories are complete junk.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

uhh what?
Mechanics. Im into videogames to play them. Its not rocket science.

People who play games for story are in the wrong medium. Thats what books are for. Game stories are complete junk.

I think most people who prefer playing games for story than gameplay are simply another step beyond movies.

I'm not a book reader. If I want a story, I'll watch a movie. But for games I want gameplay and interaction.

For story driven gamers, they want the minimal interaction that story driven games have, which is kind of like a Movie V2 kind of thing.

I'd take a guess most story driven gamers arent book readers. They want the graphics and audio of a game, but with as little interaction as possible (book/movie).

 

[LordOcidax]

Gameplay is king. So… Mechanics, the Nintendo formula.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Let’s put it this way.
Mechanics-driven games could do without a story. Curiously enough, detractors always criticize the paper-thin story in these games.
Story-driven games may have weak mechanics, but the story can keep you playing. Curiously enough, there’s never mechanics so shallow that can’t somehow be saved by a captivating story. MGS and Persona would be nothing without their stories. Nothing. The gameplay there is barely serviceable. Yet these IPs have a massive following.

I can enjoy both, but these days I have less and less patience for overly long cutscenes and convoluted stories. Fun, straightforward mechanics are what I enjoy most.

 

[Gexxy1]

Story is more important to me. Part of that is because of how rare it is to have a good story in a video game, especially these days, but I think a lot of gameplay mechanics are feeling more like a chore and not fun.

All of the "read a book or watch a movie" responses are laughable. Video games are player interactive, books and movies are not.

 

[thief183]

I don't remember the last time I didn't skip a story part...

 

[squidilix]

Both, at least not a shitty thing in both way

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

RDR2 is both... so I want more of that

Rockstar games are the best for this.

 

[squidilix]

Game = mechanics.

Personally, if I wanted a story I would watch a film or read a book.

That's the most dumb thing I've always reading.

Music and Art can also have "a story" behind it... Why game can't have a story ?

 

[Rickyiez]

Gameplay is the king

But there is exception. I play Sentinel 13 for it's story and it has one of the best story ever in fiction.

 

[simpatico]

Either if done well. I'm a fan of most genres if it's done correctly.

 

[cartman414]

^^ This. 100% this.
Many people don't understand this and like to push their opinions on you. They have a weird, antagonistic, elitist attitude as well that is unbearable.

Perhaps, but I still think it's pretty cringe when a person will knock a game for having a weak story even if it plays sublimely, while preferring a game with more story in spite of lesser gameplay.

 

[PianistaMacabro]

People who only play for stories are so odd, I mean there are other places to consume stories why not try that?

Why dont you play chess instead of games?

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

Ngl I think the souls games have the best story in the medium and one of the best in general across all mediums, and do a pretty good job of uniting Buddhist thought with the Genesis fall of man story.

There aren't many stories that go from creation myth across eons to the very end of time and reality, but souls does it.

And you can beat all of them and barely be aware there is a story. They really do the one thing vidya can do as a storytelling medium that nothing else can.

 

[L*][*N*K]

Why dont you play chess instead of games?

I do play chess, why don’t you read a book instead of playing video games?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Both like Sony's 1st party games. Pure perfection.

 

[DonJimbo]

Both are important to me

 

[nkarafo]

I never cared about the story in any game, including story driven games.

I want to play and interact with good mechanics not watch a movie from a discount director who couldn't make it in the movie industry so they settled in the game industry.

 

[sainraja]

Perhaps, but I still think it's pretty cringe when a person will knock a game for having a weak story even if it plays sublimely, while preferring a game with more story in spite of lesser gameplay.

Yes, it can go both ways, but if someone is pointing out that a game's story is weak, they are only speaking of the area they find lacking. If they prefer a game that balances both, that tells me why they prefer it despite it being a little weak on the gameplay side. Many times people are just using their subjective opinions to say that what they enjoy gameplay-wise is what everyone else should also enjoy.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Certainly developers and gamers prioritize things like story and gameplay.

 

[sainraja]

I never cared about the story in any game, including story driven games.

I want to play and interact with good mechanics not watch a movie from a discount director who couldn't make it in the movie industry so they settled in the game industry.

You can play and interact with good mechanics and a solid story that helps motivate you to finish the game. Good mechanics on their own will only take you so far; otherwise, just play Tetris! I think it is a good thing that there are a variety of games for us to enjoy.
Games don't need to have an Oscar-worthy story, just something that is interesting enough.

Some of you have conveniently forgotten that linear games have existed for a long time. Their presentation just got much better, much much better—that is where the stupid and dismissive statements by gamers started "walking simulator" "cinematic" "it's just a movie" blah blah blah.

 

[dorkimoe]

you could give me a game with no dialogue and id be happy

 

[nkarafo]

You can play and interact with good mechanics and a solid story that helps motivate you to finish the game. Good mechanics on their own will only take you so far; otherwise, just play Tetris! I think it is a good thing that there are a variety of games for us to enjoy.
Games don't need to have an Oscar-worthy story, just something that is interesting enough.

Some of you have conveniently forgotten that linear games have existed for a long time. Their presentation just got much better, much much better—that is where the stupid and dismissive statements by gamers started "walking simulator" "cinematic" "it's just a movie" blah blah blah.

I don't mind a game having a simple plot. "Peach is kidnapped and Mario needs to save her" is more than enough for me.

Now if the developer really wants to push his story into my game, sure. Just don't do it using long cutscenes. Taking away control from me to show me a cut-scene is a guaranteed skip. And if i can't skip them, its game over.

Give me more games like Portal/2 where the story is told while you are in control. Or games like Metroid Prime where the story is there if you want to discover it yourself.

Just don't do cut-scenes, that's all. Especially unskippable ones.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I think more games excel at mechanics than excel at story, but there are plenty of games with great stories and shit mechanics (or mechanics that just aren't for me) that I love - Witcher 3 and Vagrant Story come to mind.

Most so-called "story-driven" games have shit stories though. Sony cinematic action game stories are maybe on a par with mainstream Star Wars/capeshit schlock - absolutely not interesting to me.

 

[cartman414]

Yes, it can go both ways, but if someone is pointing out that a game's story is weak, they are only speaking of the area they find lacking. If they prefer a game that balances both, that tells me why they prefer it despite it being a little weak on the gameplay side. Many times people are just using their subjective opinions to say that what they enjoy gameplay-wise is what everyone else should also enjoy.

What I mean, putting it in terms of ratings, is giving a game7.0 (or 8.5 on a good day) just for failing on the story front in spite of rating a 9 or 10 for gameplay alone, while rating another game a 9+ for a 9/10 story but having 7 on gameplay, tops. The latter may be more aesthetically pleasing, but doesn't pass the acid test as a game as well. (Play novels and other narrative focused genres are a little different though.)

 

[Juza]

The story isn't important and it's not supposed to be important, it's there to set the stage for mechanics. The story is just a frame that contains the game. It's like a food plate, the plate itself isn't important, the important is what holds.

I mean....you can still enjoy the game even if its story is meaningless, but not the other way around.

Spoiler

 

[01011001]

The story isn't important and it's not supposed to be important, it's there to set the stage for mechanics. The story is just a frame that contains the game. It's like a food plate, the plate itself isn't important, the important is whats hold.

I mean....you can still enjoy the game even if its story is meaningless, but not the other way around.

Spoiler

that's what it ultimately comes down to.
you can literally have an amazing game with basically zero story, but not the other way around

I mean so called "indy developers" sure try tho

 

[01011001]

I don't mind a game having a simple plot. "Peach is kidnapped and Mario needs to save her" is more than enough for me.

Now if the developer really wants to push his story into my game, sure. Just don't do it using long cutscenes. Taking away control from me to show me a cut-scene is a guaranteed skip. And if i can't skip them, its game over.

Give me more games like Portal/2 where the story is told while you are in control. Or games like Metroid Prime where the story is there if you want to discover it yourself.

Just don't do cut-scenes, that's all. Especially unskippable ones.

anything that takes control away from the player better be important, to the point and very brief.

but worse than cutscenes are slow walking scenes.
they are just lazy cutscene replacements where you have to hold the play button down until they're over.