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[Hot Coldman]

Amazing episode. The body horror aspect of the Cybermen mixed with some fantastic hard sci-fi stuff with the 400-mile spaceship, just amazing stuff. Really hope they nail the landing here. I gather the Cybus and Cyberiad Cybermen are going to simply evolve from the Mondasian starting point, but man if they aren't a patch on how fucking creepy the Mondasians are.

They kind of saved the John Simm leak with that disguise too, which I somehow didn't figure out. Give someone giant spaceships and black holes and cyborgs and suddenly you don't expect a rubber mask I guess!

I wonder how they're even going to find room to explain the Master's escape from the Time War. Or if Gallifrey having escaped its bubble as seen in Hell Bent is considered good enough for the Master to have escaped to.

Or hell, maybe 12 picked him up during Day of the Doctor! They could go a lot of ways right now.

 

[MrBadger]

I could only think about how amazing that reveal would've been if no one knew he was back. Seriously. It would've been breathtaking.

I seriously wish I didn't know about him coming back. The disguise still got me, but it would've been amazing if it was a complete surprise.

That episode felt very similar to Dark Water. Here's hoping next week has a better payoff than Death in Heaven

 

[ag-my001]

They kind of saved the John Simm leak with that disguise too, which I somehow didn't figure out. Give someone giant spaceships and black holes and cyborgs and suddenly you don't expect a rubber mask I guess!

I'm there with you. I knew about the leak, but by not paying attention to how many episodes were left in the season, I forgot that he'd pretty much have to show up.

Two things really stuck out to me. One, I can only think to call the pre-reveal guy "Zathras". Two, the way he snuck around the corner behind Missy gave me deja vu. Feels like something I've seen the Master do before, maybe in Moffat's original Comic Relief special?

 

[Ade]

I wonder how they're even going to find room to explain the Master's escape from the Time War. Or if Gallifrey having escaped its bubble as seen in Hell Bent is considered good enough for the Master to have escaped to..

I might have misunderstood but I wasn't aware that needed explaining? He was never trapped in the time war?

He fled, chameleon arched into Yana, travelled back to be Saxon, died, was resurrected, helped the doctor banish Rassilon and then did a runner.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I might have misunderstood but I wasn't aware that needed explaining? He was never trapped in the time war?

He fled, chameleon arched into Yana, travelled back to be Saxon, died, was resurrected, helped the doctor banish Rassilon and then did a runner.

I remember it as him being trapped with the time lords.

 

[Symphonia]

I remember it as him being trapped with the time lords.

That's what I thought.

 

[Mutanthands]

Two things really stuck out to me. One, I can only think to call the pre-reveal guy "Zathras". Two, the way he snuck around the corner behind Missy gave me deja vu. Feels like something I've seen the Master do before, maybe in Moffat's original Comic Relief special?

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. Just a little more fur, and he would have made a fine Zathras brother. Simm did a great job being a convincing toady with a heart of gold up until his plan came together.

 

[Hot Coldman]

That's what I thought.

Yeah, he pretty clearly makes a choice to send Rassilon and his knobs back into the heart of the Time War where they came from, holding them back as the portal closed due to the Doctor's gunshot. He was there with them.

I expect they won't spend much time on this, though.

 

[Sheroking]

Amy and Clara had hyper-copout meaningless "deaths".

If there are no take-backsies next ep, this is the first real one.

This is a family show about optimism and adventure. There's no "hyper cop-out"; bittersweet is about as far as this show should ever go here.

God it bugs me how many TV viewers and film goers are so cynical these days.

 

[liquidtmd]

This is a family show about optimism and adventure. There's no "hyper cop-out"; bittersweet is about as far as this show should ever go here.

God it bugs me how many TV viewers and film goers are so cynical these days.

Yep.

This is a show I want and should be able to watch with my daughter. Family show, BBC just after teatime show.

Bit of Fear? Yes. Hiding behind the sofa? Check. Killing of a companion in a dark, consequence leaden finale which leads the Doctor to want to regenerate to end the pain of remembering? Jesus Christ no, it's a family show.

You want dark like that, there's plenty of choice.

 

[Exterminieren]

Well, yeah, that was fucking ace.

I'm particularly a fan of how intelligently the Mondasian Cybermen were used. When they showed off the first publicity pictures from these episodes, I thought they looked embarrassing- shonky, low-rent, rubbish. Despite this, Moffat and Talalay did an extraordinary job of contextualising them, and really punching up the horror of their appearance; the choice for the faces to naturally evolve from piles of experiments on horrendous, pitiful test subjects was an astonishingly effective one, and the way that the big, chunky, 60s technology used in their construction came intelligently from the setting and the desperate situation on the ship was brilliantly done. They even made the sing-song voices work, and be exceptionally creepy! Never before on TV has the idea that the Cybermen are hideous, mashed-up perversions of humanity been so effectively conveyed; I would put this alongside Spare Parts at the apex of what the Cybermen can represent and how effectively they can be used, and that is a profound compliment I never thought I'd be able to give.

All the regulars were expectedly great, as was Simm. Gomez made that Doctor Who banter sing at the beginning; she's been a proper asset to the show these past few years.

This is a family show about optimism and adventure. There's no "hyper cop-out"; bittersweet is about as far as this show should ever go here.

God it bugs me how many TV viewers and film goers are so cynical these days.

I'd like to strike a middle ground here; I hope there isn't some big reversal of Bill's situation and that the events of these episodes stick around, but I hope that there's some kinder resolution for her than simply being an emotionless corpse mashed into some surgical gauze. I find fandom's constant baying for companion blood incredibly tiresome, but Bill's been put in a serious enough position that there should be no easy fix to the state that she finds herself in; with that said, she's a fun, likable enough character that such a terrible end would leave a bit of a bitter taste in the mouth.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Yep.

This is a show I want and should be able to watch with my daughter. Family show, BBC just after teatime show.

Bit of Fear? Yes. Hiding behind the sofa? Check. Killing of a companion in a dark, consequence leaden finale which leads the Doctor to want to regenerate to end the pain of remembering? Jesus Christ no, it's a family show.

You want dark like that, there's plenty of choice.

But also they're rebooting the show (sorta) next year anyway so FUCK IT LET'S GO BUCK WILD

I imagine CyberBill will get to do something heroic or whatever but I imagine she's basically dead at this point. Kind of like her off of Eastenders went rogue in Torchwood because she was a superpatriot or whatever.

I DID MY DUUUUTTYYYY

 

[ClivePwned]

This is a family show about optimism and adventure. There's no "hyper cop-out"; bittersweet is about as far as this show should ever go here.

God it bugs me how many TV viewers and film goers are so cynical these days.

yeah, well these rather contrived ways the new series has written every companion apart from Martha, contrived so they can never see the Doctor again (Rose, Donna, Amy and Rory and Clara), so they're not dead per se, but the Doctor will never see them again for reasons and so they can have him mope until the next one comes along. It's like contrived interpersonal drama (ahem CW shows) where characters argue because one character discovers another character has kept a secret from them ("You killed my dad, but what really bothers me is that you didn't tell me about it").

I don't think anyone seriously expects Bill to stay a full on Cyberman- They did that with Danny and I really don't see that panning out the same way. Maybe she'll end up with a less obtrusive artificial heart or something at worst, but of course the Doctor will never be able to see her again for some reason (I'll bet its something to do with the Black Hole).

Gonna have to watch this episode again before next week, because I really, really liked it and it has stayed with me more than any other episode this season.

 

[Mutanthands]

Yep.

This is a show I want and should be able to watch with my daughter. Family show, BBC just after teatime show.

Bit of Fear? Yes. Hiding behind the sofa? Check. Killing of a companion in a dark, consequence leaden finale which leads the Doctor to want to regenerate to end the pain of remembering? Jesus Christ no, it's a family show.

You want dark like that, there's plenty of choice.

Time for a Blake's 7 revival to more properly reflect the tenor of the times.

He clearly doesn't want to be regenerating in the opening of last night's episode, so I highly doubt he's initiated it himself.

A thought about that and what may come next week, considering what we saw during the episode:

Spoiler

That's not the Doctor regenerating, it's the Master. He lets his need to play dress up and be a cheeky know it all bite him in the ass by trying to impersonate the Doctor at some point during the episode. He exits the Tardis, regenerates into Missy, left for dead on whatever wintery planet we see at the start.

Just a thought, overly complicated and not likely, but you could argue it has been foreshadowed. Plus, the hair was all wrong.

 

[21st century cowboy]

Has anyone mentioned that this could be ship from Utopia?

 

[Sheroking]

yeah, well these rather contrived ways the new series has written every companion apart from Martha, contrived so they can never see the Doctor again (Rose, Donna, Amy and Rory and Clara), so they're not dead per se, but the Doctor will never see them again for reasons and so they can have him mope until the next one comes along. It's like contrived interpersonal drama (ahem CW shows) where characters argue because one character discovers another character has kept a secret from them ("You killed my dad, but what really bothers me is that you didn't tell me about it").

I don't think anyone seriously expects Bill to stay a full on Cyberman- They did that with Danny and I really don't see that panning out the same way. Maybe she'll end up with a less obtrusive artificial heart or something at worst, but of course the Doctor will never be able to see her again for some reason (I'll bet its something to do with the Black Hole).

I wasn't responding to criticism of "contrivacy" though, I was responding to people who would actually prefer or enjoy to see this end that brutally. The expectation that it might, or the idea that The Doctor would "kill himself" out of grief is actually insane.

He may sacrifice this regeneration to save Bill or vice versa, but even if she dies, it's not going to be anywhere as grim as the set-up was. Nor should it be ever. It's fundamentally the opposite of everything that Who is, has been or ever should be.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

This is a family show about optimism and adventure. There's no "hyper cop-out"; bittersweet is about as far as this show should ever go here.

God it bugs me how many TV viewers and film goers are so cynical these days.

Oh please. It is a hyper cop-out when you continue the same old tied shtick of "killing" a companion off only to have them go on and on, and one doctor who has been guilty of since its revival. That's not cynicism, it's noting a tired trope they've gone to the well with way too often. I think Astrid is the only time they really killed off anyone close to the doctor and it stuck, and she was a one-shot character.

Classic who was a family show, and it wasn't afraid of killing off the odd companion. Mostly it didn't, which is fine as they'd at least just write them out normally, not give us "well they're still around but here's why the doctor can NEVER MEET THEM AGAIN"

 

[liquidtmd]

I wasn't responding to criticism of "contrivacy" though, I was responding to people who would actually prefer or enjoy to see this end that brutally. The expectation that it might, or the idea that The Doctor would "kill himself" out of grief is actually insane.

He may sacrifice this regeneration to save Bill or vice versa, but even if she dies, it's not going to be anywhere as grim as the set-up was. Nor should it be ever. It's fundamentally the opposite of everything that Who is, has been or ever should be.

It's also bemusing to see people saying or implying Moff is somehow 'pusses out' if he doesn't.

How far we've come from Eccleston proudly declaring with a broad triumphant grin in Moffats 'Doctor Dances' - 'EVERYBODY LIVES ROSE'. That followed on from the scary, dark image of the Empty Child and that to me symbolised why Who makes great family viewing

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

It's also bemusing to see people saying or implying Moff is somehow 'pusses out' if he doesn't.

How far we've come from Eccleston proudly declaring with a broad triumphant grin in Moffats 'Doctor Dances' - 'EVERYBODY LIVES ROSE'. That followed on from the scary, dark image of the Empty Child and that to me symbolised why Who makes great family viewing

"Everybody lives" was in contrast to classic who where most people are dead by the end of many serials.

 

[Sheroking]

Oh please. It is a hyper cop-out when you continue the same old tied shtick of "killing" a companion off only to have them go on and on, and one doctor who has been guilty of since its revival. That's not cynicism, it's noting a tired trope they've gone to the well with way too often. I think Astrid is the only time they really killed off anyone close to the doctor and it stuck, and she was a one-shot character.

Classic who was a family show, and it wasn't afraid of killing off the odd companion. Mostly it didn't, which is fine as they'd at least just write them out normally, not give us "well they're still around but here's why the doctor can NEVER MEET THEM AGAIN"

Classic Who didn't write companions the way NuWho does. Even the one that was actually his grand-daughter didn't get treated the way his companion do now, either by the show or by the Doctor himself. Even they rarely crossed this line with full-time companions, who simply left him most of the time.

These relationships are actually the entire life-blood of the programme and while they may kill companions off in some way or another, they are never going to do it with the kind of brutal cynicism that people are asking for. There will ALWAYS be a catch and there always should be.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Classic Who didn't write companions the way NuWho does. They weren't his best friends or his love interests. Even the one that was actually his grand-daughter didn't get treated the way his companion do now, either by the show or by the Doctor himself.

These relationships are actually the entire life-blood of the programme and while they may kill companions off in some way or another, they are never going to do it with the kind of brutal cynicism that people are asking for. There will ALWAYS be a catch and there always should be.

If they aren't willing to kill them off properly they either shouldn't bother, or should be a lot more selective about how often they do it then. Rose, Donna, Amy, Rory, Clara...they've done this with the majority of nuwho companions and it's dumb.

Also Romana 2 very much seemed like the fourth doctor's love interest, though in a more subtle way and plenty of them were good friends. Ace, Zoe and Jamie in particular.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Even if Simm hadn't leaked, it seems like they were always planning on marketing it.

It's really likely they were always going to at least SELL us on Simm's presence. Maybe not as soon as they started to, but we still would have gotten promotional images and trailer snippets.

 

[liquidtmd]

If they aren't willing to kill them off properly they either shouldn't bother, or should be a lot more selective about how often they do it then. Rose, Donna, Amy, Rory, Clara...they've done this with the majority of nuwho companions and it's dumb.

Yeah I can get behind this

 

[Sheroking]

If they aren't willing to kill them off properly they either shouldn't bother, or should be a lot more selective about how often they do it then. Rose, Donna, Amy, Rory, Clara...they've done this with the majority of nuwho companions and it's dumb.

Cool, but there's a difference between asking the show to be nasty about something and criticizing the way they went about writing around it.

If you don't want them to contrive some way to get Bill out of the Doctor's life, that's great. If you want them to leave her brutally converted into a Cyberman and for the Doctor to off himself in grief over that, that's actually gross and antithetical to everything the show is or ever has been.

 

[LordRaptor]

Missy naming the companions Expostion and ComicRelief was a little too on the nose

Time for a Blake's 7 revival to more properly reflect the tenor of the times.

imokaywiththis.gif

 

[Exterminieren]

Also Romana 2 very much seemed like the fourth doctor's love interest, though in a more subtle way and plenty of them were good friends. Ace, Zoe and Jamie in particular.

You've just listed three companions who were written out in such a way as to never be able to see the Doctor again, and one who never got officially written out in the show at all.

This is not a new problem; the companions who have the best rapport with the Doctor and who are the most fun to watch on-screen tend to be the ones who are least likely to leave the TARDIS of their own accord. Even Sarah Jane essentially got shoved out of the TARDIS doors and wasn't referred to properly again.

Ironically, Bill was shaping up to be a bit of an exception to the rule; I could easily imagine her deciding that the rest of her life is important enough for her to stop travelling.

 

[Symphonia]

Yeah, he pretty clearly makes a choice to send Rassilon and his knobs back into the heart of the Time War where they came from, holding them back as the portal closed due to the Doctor's gunshot. He was there with them.

I expect they won't spend much time on this, though.

I'm hoping for a mention or nod of some degree.

So it won't happen.

Has anyone mentioned that this could be ship from Utopia?

I thought that at first, but the ships look different.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Cool, but there's a difference between asking the show to be nasty about something and criticizing the way they went about writing around it.

If you don't want them to contrive some way to get Bill out of the Doctor's life, that's great. If you want them to leave her brutally converted into a Cyberman and for the Doctor to off himself in grief over that, that's actually gross and antithetical to everything the show is or ever has been.

I'm astounded by how you get from me not wanting continual cop-out deaths to the bolded. it's quite a spectacular leap.

I don't care how it's handled as long as it's handled well. Which it generally hasn't been for the past twelve years. Continually.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

They've been attempting to reboot Blake's 7 for years, never seems to happen.

RE companions, I'm glad they've stopped doing the Classic thing of the companions randomly deciding to stop traveling with the Doctor and to go and live in Stoke instead.

 

[jerry113]

I knew all about Simm coming back and was anticipating his return throughout the episode, and felt like a giant idiot when the disguise came off.

P.S. Hearing the 4 drum motif gave me the nostalgia chills.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

If they aren't willing to kill them off properly they either shouldn't bother, or should be a lot more selective about how often they do it then. Rose, Donna, Amy, Rory, Clara...they've done this with the majority of nuwho companions and it's dumb.

Agreed. Rose, Micky, Donna, Amy, Rory and Clara all survived, so I actually want Bill to die (even though I like her) because it shows there are sometimes big consequences to travelling with the Doctor and it makes a change from the usual, someone dies but not really trope, plus it would make Cyberman Bill saying "I waited" all the more tragic.

That would lose it's impact if they reverse that now and Cyberman conversion is normally permanent too, so that would be another thing they have to bend the rules for. Just give Bill a tragic end this time.

It's not like people are saying all companions should die but just once in a while it would make a change.

 

[Exterminieren]

I don't think companions should die, personally speaking. Adric worked because no fucker could stand Adric, but kids should idolise and adore these characters; having them die horrible deaths would be completely and utterly wrong for the show.

I would rather have the kids be sad that Amy and Rory have gone while resting safe in the knowledge that they had long, loving lives rather than have them be summarily killed on the spot.

 

[neojubei]

I don't think companions should die, personally speaking. Adric worked because no fucker could stand Adric, but kids should idolise and adore these characters; having them die horrible deaths would be completely and utterly wrong for the show.

I would rather have the kids be sad that Amy and Rory have gone while resting safe in the knowledge that they had long, loving lives rather than have them be summarily killed on the spot.

To heck with you. I loved Adric. His death was pretty traumatic to me when i was a kid.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Can you imagine doctor who once had Adric & Tegan as companions at the same time

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Can you imagine doctor who once had Adric & Tegan as companions at the same time

This doctor has Nardole, Bill, and Missy.

(yes, I'm counting Missy as a "companion" for this season)

 

[EvilRedEye]

Higher companion death toll would screw with things like investing in the characters and the audience's perception of the morality of the Doctor taking these people off on dangerous adventures.

I'm kinda surprised to see the RTD companion writings-off getting a bit of a slating. I thought they were all fine at the time. Isn't the Donna one supposed to be one of the saddest Who moments? Anyhoo, I preferred the higher turnover of the RTD era and they have to go somehow.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

This doctor has Nardole, Bill, and Missy.

(yes, I'm counting Missy as a "companion" for this season)

Tegan who from memory once self identified as a "mouth with legs", and Adric who would love to tell you about the star he got for mathematical excellence. Oh, and there was also Nyssa, who was there.

 

[Mutanthands]

Agreed. Rose, Micky, Donna, Amy, Rory and Clara all survived, so I actually want Bill to die (even though I like her) because it shows there are sometimes big consequences to travelling with the Doctor and it makes a change from the usual, someone dies but not really trope, plus it would make Cyberman Bill saying "I waited" all the more tragic.

That would lose it's impact if they reverse that now and Cyberman conversion is normally permanent too, so that would be another thing they have to bend the rules for. Just give Bill a tragic end this time.

It strike me that Moffat would not chose to end his tenure with Doctor Who that way. It's a bold move to pull in your next to last episode, and a hell of a thing to give to the next show runner to explore the consequences of, if you're going to do it right. 9 was already the Doctor to deal with mortality and regret.

Edit: let me qualify that, 9's primary character trait was regret over the time war. Regret and mortality has always been a modern Who undercurrent.

 

[Exterminieren]

FUCK Donna's exit. Garbage, hand-wavey, agency-robbing HORSESHIT.

The worst thing RTD ever did with the show, and it's not even a little bit close.

This doctor has Nardole, Bill, and Missy.

(yes, I'm counting Missy as a "companion" for this season)

That combo is at least fun for the audience, and it's entertaining to watch them bounce off each other on-screen.

The only people more bored than Adric, Nyssa and Tegan are the audience actually watching them.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Apologies, I was going for "unlikely personality combinations" and not "unsavory in terms of execution/audience appreciation." Misunderstood what was going on.

 

[21st century cowboy]

I thought that at first, but the ships look different.

It probably wouldn't make sense. Why would the blue guy be a cleaner when he wasn't on Utopia.

I've got to say this has been the best overall series since 5. No episode has been less than a 7 and even then the Doctor's, Bill's and Nardol's interactions have raised mundane plots. I'm so desperately sad we won't get another series with the 3 of them. I never do this but I'll probably watch the series again as soon as I get the blu ray

 

[Exterminieren]

Apologies, I was going for "unlikely personality combinations" and not "unsavory in terms of execution/audience appreciation." Misunderstood what was going on.

Nah, that's fine, and that's honestly one of the things I've enjoyed most about this series; for once, we've got a crew in the TARDIS who aren't necessarily all on the same page, and who have different perspectives. I loved Amy and Rory on the TARDIS, but god knows that that particular dynamic wasn't present then.

 

[NumberThree]

I'm there with you. I knew about the leak, but by not paying attention to how many episodes were left in the season, I forgot that he'd pretty much have to show up.

Two things really stuck out to me. One, I can only think to call the pre-reveal guy "Zathras". Two, the way he snuck around the corner behind Missy gave me deja vu. Feels like something I've seen the Master do before, maybe in Moffat's original Comic Relief special?

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. Just a little more fur, and he would have made a fine Zathras brother. Simm did a great job being a convincing toady with a heart of gold up until his plan came together.

Haha, I had a post I forgot to submit saying the same thing sitting on my laptop. Zathras help Bill!

And yeah, despite knowing he was coming back that disguise definitely managed to catch me off guard.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Nah, that's fine, and that's honestly one of the things I've enjoyed most about this series; for once, we've got a crew in the TARDIS who aren't necessarily all on the same page, and who have different perspectives. I loved Amy and Rory on the TARDIS, but god knows that that particular dynamic wasn't present then.

Probably the first time since Turlough. Which sometimes worked well, but othertimes poorly.

Zoe/Jamie was a good'un though, she was as smart as the doctor and he was from a time before electricity. Though they are at least on the same page more oft then not.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I do like having a TARDIS crew where you have multiple people from multiple backgrounds. Like, I prefer Bill/Nardole(/Missy) on a similar level to Rose/Mickey/Jack (though Rose and Mickey were from the same place pretty much).

Definitely takes a certain kind of Doctor to pull off ensemble companions though, especially if one of them is from the future. Always felt 9 worked with Jack infinitely better than 10 did - it's why Boom Town is still very watchable. And 12 bounces off of Nardole and Bill in unique yet equally brilliant ways.

 

[LordRaptor]

It strike me that Moffat would not chose to end his tenure with Doctor Who that way. It's a bold move to pull in your next to last episode, and a hell of a thing to give to the next show runner to explore the consequences of

On the other hand, it'd be nice to restore the Master to credible threat / Grade A Bastard standing.

I mean... outside of some deus ex machina or throwing some established rules out the window, I can't really see any way out for Bill being irrevocably fucked. Her best case scenario is uploading her brain into the Monks holodeck and letting her live out her fake rest of life in a simulation a la River Song

 

[Mutanthands]

On the other hand, it'd be nice to restore the Master to credible threat / Grade A Bastard standing.

I mean... outside of some deus ex machina or throwing some established rules out the window, I can't really see any way out for Bill being irrevocably fucked. Her best case scenario is uploading her brain into the Monks holodeck and letting her live out her fake rest of life in a simulation a la River Song

Spoiler

The Pilot from the first episode this season is still in play.

In any case, I don't think she's coming back to Earth. But she can be happy.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The Pilot from the first episode this season is still in play.

oh shit, I'd completely forgotten.

That'd be a hell of a thing if he brought that back.

 

[Mutanthands]

oh shit, I'd completely forgotten.

That'd be a hell of a thing if he brought that back.

Ahh! My spoiler tags!

It's speculation, but you never know.

 

[Symphonia]

oh shit, I'd completely forgotten.

That'd be a hell of a thing if he brought that back.

I'm forgetting what even happened in The Pilot. I thought that girl had died?