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'Doomsday Clock': DC's Geoff Johns on the Origin of the Watchmen/Superman Comic Book
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
Probably will check out the trade later on. I think this could end up working well and be interesting.
Lol not with the likes of Holy Terror existing.
Lol not with the likes of Holy Terror existing.
Detective Comics has been my favorite. Batman is more YMMV because Tom King is doing a very different type of story than normal.
Superman has been very good as well, as well as Super Sons.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
First 25 issues of Wonder Woman are already a classic run. The beginning is a little rough but it gets better and better until the heart-wrenching conclusion. And Priest is killing it on Deathstroke, best cape book right now but I'm a few issues behind.
Superman was excellent for 20 issues or so. It's been a bit dodgy lately. Aquaman has been great since issue 25, an easy jumping-on point. Green Arrow, GL Corps, New Super-Man, Super Sons are also really good.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
I can't attest to the rest of the series, but the Batman/Flash crossover The Button was pretty good; albeit short.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Watchmen is a type of sci-fi built on the idea of changing one premise. Doctor Manhattan is that premise.
[Arguably it's a two-premise work, with the masked adventurer fad of the 1940's being the other.]
The DCU is a several-thousand premise/rank fantasy. Plus it's a vast shared universe. Watchmen is a very limited closed world, a story with a handful of prequels.
They're fundamentally different.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Thanks!
That is a lot of good stuff! Nice! I was supposed to pick up the first two volumes of Detective Comics from the digital Batman sale thanks to the recommendations of another gaffer and now it looks like I have plenty more to get
Moore has always been comic book anti-establishment. I often wonder why he even agreed to do Watchmen in the first place, since even then his original vision had to be toned down by request of DC Comics. He wanted the Charlton characters instead of the ersatz that we got in the end. I wish he was more like Morrison and embraced his legacy, and that of others. It's what everyone does: the superhero genre is a constant recycling of the same basic stories. If someone wants to use the Watchmen universe to tell a new story, what's there to lose? The original work will still be there. I do feel that Johns is the guy for a project like Doomsday clock, though. He's a great writer who knows the characters he's writing.
And it's not like DC (or Marvel, for that matter) aren't employing great writers who tell great stories. Read Mister Miracle, people.
Exactly, we need a new Owlman. So good!
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
And I can believe the premise of Doctor Manhattan's godlike powers interfering with the DC universe. You can be as tonally different as you like but if you connect that one thing that can bring it together, it can work regardless.
Unlike Morrison, I imagine it's pretty hard for Moore to "embrace (the) legacy" that DC is trying to cultivate around Watchmen, considering Moore feels the company completely screw him over by originally getting him to sign over the rights to his characters, whilst shutting him out of any kind of substantial cut of the book's continued earnings, which is exactly what prompted Moore to walk away from DC in 1989, after vowing never to work for them as a writer again. As a creator, he feels he was basically robbed of any kind of ownership of his own creation, which all honestly isn't a far cry from the truth, when taking into account all the facts that we've been given.
Thanks!
That is a lot of good stuff! Nice! I was supposed to pick up the first two volumes of Detective Comics from the digital Batman sale thanks to the recommendations of another gaffer and now it looks like I have plenty more to get
Detective Comics is so good. It's like Claremont Era X-Men style superhero team stories, but instead with Batman, Batwoman, Tim Drake, Clayface, Spoiler, Orphan/Cassandra Cain, Azreal and Batwing. Greatest team ever.
Thank you.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Hooooly shit, I am sold.
Just be sure to read DC Rebirth #1 first. It introduces the overall mystery for the DC Universe and whats cool about these books is that out of nowhere a twist happens thats directly related to the overall DC Rebirth mystery and it blows your mind.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
For Moore, it's about how certain creators were treated. Comic book companies have an awful track record, and Moore didn't want to be party to it any longer.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I hope your a Tim fan, cuz your gonna LOVE the ending to the first arc.
That makes his stance fairly hypocritical. He wanted to use pre-existing characters to tell his own story in his own way. When others use pre-existing characters (ie those he made) to try to tell their own story in their own way he sees it as derivative or an insult. Those two thought processes, to me, seem hypocritical.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Thanks, will do.
Yah, I'm a Tim fan.
Interesting, I'm curious to see what happens now.
Moore has always emphasized that he sees a huge difference between utilizing characters previously established creators who are now dead, and hijacking someone's characters when they're still very much alive.
Hence, you know, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
But even in that sense, I guess you would be right in saying that Moore is still a hypocrite in that regard.
(Pictured: League depicting Harry Potter committing a high school massacre at Hogwarts)
The issue isn't that Watchmen is an untouchable special story, it's that its core message runs antithetical to this mythologizing of its characters and this over exploration of its lore. The likes of Johns and Snyder give off the impression that the Watchmen are just cool superhero dudes doing dark superhero stuff. It feels like they didn't get the story, and while that sounds super pretentious, the story itself wasn't especially hard to get.
And why did he regurgitate Charlton comics characters for Watchmen? Couldn't he have thought of something original? Is that so much to ask?
I mean, they're comics for crying out loud. The whole thing with them is using and reusing existing characters. He's used plenty of existing characters himself. Why, when he "creates" new characters, should they be off limits?
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Moore famously complained about the Johns GL stuff that it was milking stuff he did decades back rather than being original.
Of course, the story that provided the jumping-off point was Moore doing that exact same thing with even earlier GL stuff.
Moore's a hypocrite about the "use other people's stuff" complaint.
OTOH, he seems to be in high integrity about the screwing over of creators and and not wanting to be a party to it. So there's that.
Of course, the story that provided the jumping-off point was Moore doing that exact same thing with even earlier GL stuff.
Moore's a hypocrite about the "use other people's stuff" complaint.
OTOH, he seems to be in high integrity about the screwing over of creators and and not wanting to be a party to it. So there's that.
It's really solid. I see your a Tim fan as well, #bestrobin. Tynion really gives him the best treatment he's had since New52 started.
The percentage of comics by the big two that are truly original is incredibly small. The main characters have been around for many decades and most of the new characters are derivatives, offshoots or reskins of characters that have been around for decades.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Does Moore take his own advice or is he still milking League books?
Fancyarcher
Member
Love the art. It's feels strangely real to me. I also get what Johns is saying. I'm sure they have a lot to handle, especially with regards to making the characters right and fit in with the DC universe well. It's not easy, but I wish them luck, I guess.
It's a not good idea, but DC was going to do it eventually, especially since they've been mining their properties for this long. I'm just glad they're giving a reason for the Watchmen showing up in the DC universe I suppose.
It's a not good idea, but DC was going to do it eventually, especially since they've been mining their properties for this long. I'm just glad they're giving a reason for the Watchmen showing up in the DC universe I suppose.
What's good for the homeless cosplayer/snake worshiper does not apply to others, it seems.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Well, I wouldn't say there were thousands but there is a ton. I think Watchmen is pretty special though; it's incredible in terms of how it plays with the form.
It's pretty unique in that regard. I can think of only one (maybe two) other comic(s) that play with formal structure like it does (and one of them is essentialy a really accomplished parody of Watchmen!).
That's the main reason I personally rate it so highly. Plus, it caught me at just the right time.
It's just a great standalone story. It doesn't make sense being in the wider DC continuity because it kind of undermines a big part of what the book was trying to do.
I feel the same about Dark Knight Returns, actually. It's not how Batman's story actually ends, but it is an end point in itself. Miller carrying it on was... unnecessary and undermines the original story.
His blatant hypocrisy about this always bothered me.
I think he's more focused on his novel work, filmmaking, and his poetry. I don't mind saying Jerusalem looks really intimidating.
Father_Brain
Banned
The entire point of the original Watchmen was that it was completely self-contained and that the characters didn't and couldn't work in the context of a traditionally defined superhero universe, and vice versa. Also, DiDio openly admitted that the Rebirth reveal was done to get attention rather than for any story reason.
But whatever, OMG RORSCHACH MEETS FELLOW BADASS HERO BATMAN THIS IS JUST LIKE THAT FANFIC I WROTE WHEN I WAS 13, I guess.
But whatever, OMG RORSCHACH MEETS FELLOW BADASS HERO BATMAN THIS IS JUST LIKE THAT FANFIC I WROTE WHEN I WAS 13, I guess.
Just_myles
Member
The Broken Ska Record
Member
But Watchmen was originally conceived as a DC story using DC characters. They just decided to not allow Moore to use DC characters for his story. And besides this doesn't change the original in any form. It's still a self-contained story.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Charlton characters (a stable bought up by DC), as far as I can recall.
The reason they didn't let Moore and Gibbons get their hands on them was because they wanted to permanently fuck them up in a self-contained story.
GravityInsanity
Member
Damn people it's just comics, chill out lol. DC can do whatever they want with Watchmen since they own the characters and Rebirth has been incredible. The best comic from DC this year for me is Mister Miracle. DC has really been stepping it up taking bold decisions.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
All comics are fanfic.
And honestly by comics standards, this is a smart business decision.
I'll say this. I was aghast at Before Watchmen.
In the end... I was not very impressed by it EXCEPT the Minutemen was incredible.
So we got an amazing extra Watchmen story, and you what? I was able to just ignore the other stuff. I busted out Watchmen a few weeks ago for a re-read, and the fact that Before Watchmen happened didn't effect my enjoyment of the story at all.
So I am certainly not outraged by this.
Additionally, Rebirth has been great and they have been setting this up for a long time, and you know what? I'm actually excited about Doomsday Clock.
And if it ends up being shit? Then it will be shit. And I still will enjoy Watchmen every time i read it.
Except that they were all supposed to be characters from a traditionally defined superhero universe, until he wasn't allowed to use them?
Pretty pathetic insult at the end of your post as well. Sad.
In the end... I was not very impressed by it EXCEPT the Minutemen was incredible.
So we got an amazing extra Watchmen story, and you what? I was able to just ignore the other stuff. I busted out Watchmen a few weeks ago for a re-read, and the fact that Before Watchmen happened didn't effect my enjoyment of the story at all.
So I am certainly not outraged by this.
Additionally, Rebirth has been great and they have been setting this up for a long time, and you know what? I'm actually excited about Doomsday Clock.
And if it ends up being shit? Then it will be shit. And I still will enjoy Watchmen every time i read it.
Except that they were all supposed to be characters from a traditionally defined superhero universe, until he wasn't allowed to use them?
Pretty pathetic insult at the end of your post as well. Sad.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Damn right. Got hold of #2 today. I never buy single issues these days.