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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
- Thread starter Swag
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Wouldn't be so certain, especially in a time where Valve is looking to shake up its content delivery scheme, not hew to it in the exact same fashion as every other week. My guess is they'll release the test client with some new heroes and hold the regular client in stasis (barring an old hero or two moving into CM selection) until next week. The test client is definitely the sort that could see much more frequent updates (given that it won't be used competitively), if only for a slurry of hotfixes and the like throughout the week. If it's ready to go Valve can drop it at any point in time, no sense holding back the client when they can merely hold back the test -> beta update process.
I have never seen Bloodseeker Jungle in a real game. To be honest, I never even thought of it.
ItAintEasy
Member
New Kirby meta inc
A jungling Bloodseeker is not going to be as effective as laning, particularly solo mid. However, there are some heroes, usually ranged nuker mid heroes, that can shut him down.
IHeartTSwift
Member
Cosign.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Is there any reason BS couldn't jungle? Does his blood lust heal thing whatever not heal enough?
I don't much like playing BS, so I have no feel for how poorly that would work. (Plus, I kind of hate jungling.)
I don't much like playing BS, so I have no feel for how poorly that would work. (Plus, I kind of hate jungling.)
He could, but laning is always better for bloodseeker.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Lifestealer doesn't have an AoE clear, yet tons of people jungle as him. (Including me, but I've probably given up because I just can't do it fast at all.)
But he does have... lifesteal, so... Only reason I asked is 'cause BS' bloodbath is kinda like a lifesteal.
But he does have... lifesteal, so... Only reason I asked is 'cause BS' bloodbath is kinda like a lifesteal.
Jungling naix is just as bad. Naix is actually really strong in lane, a slow and mini bkb/ias skill is great.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Yeah I enjoy him a lot more in lane. A lot, a lot. I don't really understand why people jungle, but I always just assumed it was because I suck at jungling.
So, give me examples of heroes who are objectively better in the jungle than in the lane! Specifically, people who should NEVER lane if the player knows how to jungle. Are there any?
Axe, Chen, Enchantress.
You could make an argument for DS as well, especially with the recent buffs.
The qualities a jungler should have are:
1) Self Reliance: If the pull or some other spawn is warded, you can still jungle even if it's less slow/safe. Also, you shouldn't have to level to 3 first (special case for Zephyr from HoN because of his ridiculous carrying potential)
2) Speed: No brainer. There's no point in jungling if you can do better in lane.
3) Gank: A jungler should be able to affect a kind of pseudo trilane (assuming the long lane has two heroes) or at least apply pressure (if the long lane is solo)
4) Consistency: A few bad spawns (such as too many Centaurs, or not enough Centaurs) should not fuck you over completely.
Axe is a special case in that he's so abysmal in the lane (unless you're doing some kind of cheese creep wave interception tactic) that jungling is pretty much the only choice for him.
You could make an argument for DS as well, especially with the recent buffs.
The qualities a jungler should have are:
1) Self Reliance: If the pull or some other spawn is warded, you can still jungle even if it's less slow/safe. Also, you shouldn't have to level to 3 first (special case for Zephyr from HoN because of his ridiculous carrying potential)
2) Speed: No brainer. There's no point in jungling if you can do better in lane.
3) Gank: A jungler should be able to affect a kind of pseudo trilane (assuming the long lane has two heroes) or at least apply pressure (if the long lane is solo)
4) Consistency: A few bad spawns (such as too many Centaurs, or not enough Centaurs) should not fuck you over completely.
Axe is a special case in that he's so abysmal in the lane (unless you're doing some kind of cheese creep wave interception tactic) that jungling is pretty much the only choice for him.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Why Dark Seer? People lane as him all the time, and he seems to be pretty good. EDIT: Oh you edited.
Axe, Chen, Enchantress, I can see. Although Axe sucks 'cause helix is random, and I've personally gone through three camps in a row with only like three helixes. Horrible. This thread hates Axe in general, though, so whatever.
Axe, Chen, Enchantress, I can see. Although Axe sucks 'cause helix is random, and I've personally gone through three camps in a row with only like three helixes. Horrible. This thread hates Axe in general, though, so whatever.
The_Player
Member
Enigma is one of the best jungglers to me. I generally go instant Basilis, then Soul Ring - Boots - Dagger, leaving forest only to help with ganking. You can also do solo Rosh from level 5 in order to help your team with quick cash.
Yeah, added.
I've seen Dark Seer lane to great effect as well, but this is usually in one of two cases:
1) He's up against newbies/idiots who don't harass and keep running into Ion Shell.
2) He's up against solo or double melee.
Chen, Axe and Enchantress are the main three. Enigma is pretty much 50-50 in my eyes, he has zero issues with jungling and can effectively gank from level 3 on very well, but denying with the summons is also really great lane control. DS however... Very good on lane, but if you feel you need more farm than you can get from the lane, jungling is a very effective option. If you ARE jungling, remember to stack big camps and clear them out with ion shell + smoke combo. Cheesy, but sure as hell really effective!
You need to stack the camps with Axe for him to jungle properly.
True, but at least that option is available to him. He's completely fucking useless in lane.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Mm, all right. I don't much like Axe, anyway, but it's good to know.
The_Player
Member
Try to synergise his skills with Ursa. Surge + Overpower combo can easily kill low hp heroes.
256h since December if I recall correctly.
I find the best way to start with Axe is to go to the low level camp and double stack it immediately. Then pray to god the pull camp isn't warded or there aren't any centaurs in the other camps.
However, 90% of those hours were spent speccing.
In my experience, people jungle for two reasons (sometimes both). Either they have a hero suited for jungle, they're smart enough to keep an eye out for possible ganks, and they're willing to leave the jungle entirely if necessary.
Or they just want to afk farm as safely as possible.
Ikuu said Axe, not DS! No doubt DS has extreme synergy with certain heroes (wind walkers for one, lol Ion Shell + BH).
502 hours.
However, 90% of those hours were spent speccing.
In my experience, people jungle for two reasons (sometimes both). Either they have a hero suited for jungle, they're smart enough to keep an eye out for possible ganks, and they're willing to leave the jungle entirely if necessary.
Or they just want to afk farm as safely as possible.
Dark seer can actually go against a trilane also.
Should try battle hunger with drum
I think axe in lane is far from useless!But if he's against slow ranged heroes like viper or veno..yeah he's better off jungle.
Should try battle hunger with drum
depends on how stupid your opponents are, a creep kill just removes his dot. If they know that, he is useless.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Unless you and your lane partner can harass and/or deny creeps effectively enough to make battle hunger worth it.
The whole point of that is to not let them kill a creep easily.
Laning Axe wouldn't be solo anyways. With a good ranged partner who can harass and help deny, Battle Hunger becomes a real pain, forcing enemy melee heroes into attack range where they can easily be hit by Axe and ranged partner.
What are you talking about. Axe is amazing in lane. You just have to put him laning against right heroes
A good laner forces his opponents to conform to him, not the other way around!What are you talking about. Axe is amazing in lane. You just have to put him laning against right heroes
If you find yourself asking "Okay, in which lane will I not do horribly?", you've already lost the very first part of laning, the hero pick battle.
However, as noted by 1.09, a hero with a very valuable contribution (like BH's omgwtf gold) can warrant a pick even though he lacks lane presence in high level games. This applies to hard carries as well.
Otherwise I can claim that Silencer is a great laner, since all he needs is to go up against a Sniper/SB dual lane.
Second line is wrong. When picking certain heroes that have zero (and i literally mean like zero ><) lane presence, a good majority of the time the team has to try to guess and pit him into a lane where he won't get totally destroyed, or simply sac his lane. Does that mean they've lost the pick battle? No, when it comes to certain heroes like puck or bh, whom escalate as soon as team fights happen and the roaming begins, and need very little farm to be effective early otherwise.
Although in all honesty, axe should be in the jungle.
I guess the laning axe dosent specc counter helix, you can just harass him back, even when being close to him because he is not gonna do any damage. Besides from that, an Axe needs farm, he cant be laning with a ranged carry and putting a support with him is just a big waste.
Pick a slardar instead, he does more damage and has a 1000x better ultimate than Axe.
Oh btw when I think of it, someone asked me to say another hero that is "worse than Warlock", there you have it: Axe. Probably the most useless hero in the game still even if he got some particular buffs. They really need to remake him hard.
To be more accurate, the presence of Axe forces TB and Weaver to ult sooner than they normally would!
I've done it once, and it worked out pretty well. Didn't have the level advantage, but ganking out of the jungle every time your ult is off = free farm for carry.
Slardars stun is just as good as berserkers call, I think the stun is 2,5 sec max and call is 3 secs. Not that big a difference and the stun does 200 physical damage. The stun has also higher AoE.
Call + Blademail, doesn't Call also pull out of invisibility?
Just get Invoker and Cold Snap to stop the animation from completing / Deafening blast to silence. Cold Snap animation blocking when used with Alacrity is stupid annoying, I feel like if your picking Axe to counter a weaver / terrorblade that it would be just better to get Doom so you can Doom them and prevent the ult.
I would never use axe as a counterpick to TB. Although tbf, I'd never let TB get past ban phase either :|
@Coolhwip: physical dmg is worse then magic dmg going into late game, anything over 6 armor has 26% mitigation, making it do less dmg then magic, so I'm not sure why you bolded that. Axe's spin is 190 physical dmg when maxed, has better scaling early, and can cast more then once during those 3 seconds, so your arguement for higher dmg is null and void, whereas the aoe is indeed bigger by 75. Besides, comparing slardar to axe is like comparing apples to oranges, or drow to vs.
483.4 hrs and played smt like 450 games
I think that's the main problem with Axe and pretty much all underpicked heroes.
It's like, why would you ever pick these guys over this other hero that does the same thing but better?
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