Ask Neki.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
- Thread starter Swag
- Start date
- Status
Ask Neki.
CM can stand in spawn and contribute. Can't top that.
Guiding new players to play support is a good idea just for selfish reasons as well, maybe some of them will stick so the people currently playing support won't be the only ones. Way too many teams consist of nothing but heroes that can melt face after 45 minutes of play. No one seems to care about winning as long as the K/D is awesome, then you can pretty much just shit on your teammates for sucking.
There is no hero quite so faceroll as Sona.
I guess Omniknight might be your best bet for ezmode support.
I played Doom Bringer in my first game last night. I was getting a better handle on the moves, but I'm completely lost in the flow of play. Also, the lack of spacebar to center camera on yourself or being able to click off your character was jarring.
I can only get better, but I was pretty bad.
I can only get better, but I was pretty bad.
How about supports heroes in general then (besides omniknight)?
Think I screwed up a control change and there's no default. Great.
oh you
I'd say Lich and Dazzle are very beginner friendly. CM is alright too, but I found it quite frustrating to play at first since I started with it. Ranged is always easier to play at first since you can't be harrassed as easily while laning.
Schmattakopf
Member
Edit: Nevermind.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Then I don't see why you disagreed with me, because that's exactly what I said.
Swappingggggggggggggggggggggg.
Honestly this is the way it functions, if someone on your team is better then you, then it's probably a good idea to support them so you can win, at least until their confident enough that you can carry. I'm fine with playing support if I'm playing with people I know that can fulfill the carry role better / as good as me.
Ask Archie, he usually asks if he can try out carrying, so we support him, we don't always win, but at least he doesn't just pick Anti-Mage right off the bat, then fail and wonder why we lose.
Perfect example was that match that HugoBoss21 played with EG.Demon this morning where the Anti-Mage on his team was god awful, cost them the game, and they played it for 50+ minutes, not even he could carry someone that was essentially a non factor in the game.
Can you explain your reasoning here, I'd love to hear it.
Togglesworlh
Banned
I feel like you're mocking me. ):
No, it's just that a bad support, who fails at actually supporting his/her carry, can result in said carry not getting the necessary farm, either because the support isn't harassing enough or isn't saving the carry from ganks, or whatever. That's just the laning phase.
During the roaming, team fight phase, a bad support failing to stun or heal or whatever at the right moment can make or break a team fight. Imagine a Tidehunter who wastes his ult on a single enemy when no one is around to help take that enemy down? What about a Dazzle who Shallow Graves himself instead of the carry, ruining the carry's chance to get the kill AND get out? The already-mentioned VS who swaps your worst nightmare right in the middle of your group?
Supports are definitely easier to play, on average, than a carry (though some carries are really easy and some supports aren't), but that doesn't mean bad supports can't be a detriment to the team.
EDIT: That's not even mentioning things like warding!
Togglesworlh
Banned
First piece of advice: don't focus on KD. Especially as support.
The recommended items are generally all right for beginners. Swag has a custom recommended item file somewhere in this thread, I think, that is probably better. U:
The 9HD mouse mat lasts MUCH longer though.
Thats more or less what I built(Didn't get a vlads though, we had a skel king), I got stomped earlier though by a gondar who built 2 bfuries and 2 behemoth hearts. I can't remember what his last item was though.
edit: It was some pro team, we had about 60 spectators. We managed to turtle for a bit but got destroyed during the roaming phase.
you guys should get the dota 2 mousepad. pretty legit. umvc3 for size comparison.
Debating it, but is there really that much of an advantage over just using the surface of my desk?
On a side note, it does look pretty damn cool.
If I played games more often then I'd probably get the 9HD but this should last for a while.
Imagine instead, that the carry cannot last hit, so his GPM is much lower, he has bad decision making so he can't prioritize the right targets, and can't position himself appropriately, doesn't understand how items affect his hero, so he doesn't buy the right items for the heroes he's facing. No map awareness so he's getting ganked constantly.
It's not that a bad support isn't a detriment, a bad anything is a detriment, but to equate a bad support to a bad carry, is kind of a stretch. Even all those things you mentioned, the game is still winnable, your not going to get very far with a Drow Ranger that has Treads 26 minutes into the game and is still trying to farm HoTD / Yasha, with max Frost Arrows / Silence and 0 in Precision Aura.
Unless of course you have an awesome Sand King in your game
Where can I buy this?
http://shop.steelseries.com/us/surfaces/steelseries-qck-dota2-edition.html
That's the American site though.. you might need to go directly to http://shop.steelseries.com
aaaand I guess they don't have it on their international site >_<
Togglesworlh
Banned
All of those also apply to supports, except for the GPM, and with the added bonus that the support is supposed to protect the carry at all costs, which a bad support will not do.
Too, a really bad support can easily bring down a good carry.
It depends entirely on which support and which carry you're talking about. A game isn't instantly winnable with a good carry. A game isn't instantly losable with a bad carry. The same goes for supports.
A bad player is a bad player and is going to bring down your team regardless of their role. If the other players are good enough to make up for that, fantastic. If they're not... good luck, have fun?
I've seen a unicorn. And by that I mean a solo queuer who knows what he's doing. On a carry. And he was polite and complimentary. Shallow Graving his Gondar at their mid rax, only to watch him kill 2-3 people before it expires, and then live afterward... it's a thing of beauty. That beautiful bastard gets a commendation.
Nah I googled it after I made that post and couldn't find a purchase link, only a notify when available option. Thanks again.
Or are you saying I don't live in America
See a bad support not protecting a good carry, is easily avoidable by the carry by making sure they are just aware of what's going on, and avoid doing anything with said support. I'm assuming your referring to the laning phase, if your not, and it's the team fight stage, with enough farm a Witch Doctor that can't stun / maledict and dies right away is going to be irrelevant.
Your going to lose the game if your carry sucks, and theirs doesn't, unless you have Sand King on your team that can farm a quick Aghanims, as well as a Dark Seer with Aghanims to stop their pushes.Togglesworlh said:
Houston3000
Member
I got into the beta yesterday and was able to play my first couple of games today. I'm a horrible Dota noob though, I probably played a dozen games of Allstars back years ago at some LAN parties as well as some Demigod (lol) about two years ago... so I knew the basic concepts of the genre but knew absolutely nothing about the different heroes, let alone their roles.
First game I chose Clockwerk (sp?) because his abilities sounded cool but it was mad hard. It also didn't help that I had no idea how to buy gear. I was stupid and didn't realize I had to right-click (was trying to drag everything and got hung up trying to use the Quick Buy bar for the wrong purpose). Needless to say I was absolutely terrible - like no kills, a dozen or two deaths, and level 11 by the end of the game.
Went to the wiki after that and read a few things, then watched a couple of youtube videos of people playing the early game with different characters. Basically I learned I wasn't suppose to push my lane the entire time, wasn't suppose to simply auto-attack every single creep, learned I had to get the killing blow to make money, and how to deny.
Played another game but chose Tinker. Holy shit, what a huge difference. I solo'd my lane and by the end of the game was level 20, only died 2 times, had 19 kills and 8 assists (19/2/8). I know he's probably not a good hero and I'm only playing scrubs but it was fun!
First game I chose Clockwerk (sp?) because his abilities sounded cool but it was mad hard. It also didn't help that I had no idea how to buy gear. I was stupid and didn't realize I had to right-click (was trying to drag everything and got hung up trying to use the Quick Buy bar for the wrong purpose). Needless to say I was absolutely terrible - like no kills, a dozen or two deaths, and level 11 by the end of the game.
Went to the wiki after that and read a few things, then watched a couple of youtube videos of people playing the early game with different characters. Basically I learned I wasn't suppose to push my lane the entire time, wasn't suppose to simply auto-attack every single creep, learned I had to get the killing blow to make money, and how to deny.
Played another game but chose Tinker. Holy shit, what a huge difference. I solo'd my lane and by the end of the game was level 20, only died 2 times, had 19 kills and 8 assists (19/2/8). I know he's probably not a good hero and I'm only playing scrubs but it was fun!
Togglesworlh
Banned
Ooookayyyyy. Let's look at this another way.
Two evenly matched teams. Maybe you're slightly ahead 30 minutes in, but not much. Sub one of your supports for someone who sucks the butt.
What now?
Is your carry AM?
Togglesworlh
Banned
Hah. Mmmmaybe? Let's go with no. U:
Do you have Sand King or Dark Seer on your team? With standard items ( Blink Dagger / Aghanims )
Togglesworlh
Banned
man what
Well, whether you win, depends on the rest of the team, and what items they have.
Just trying to make this a fair comparison. But if you replaced your decent Lion, with a shitty Crystal Maiden, I can't imagine the game going that much different, even if your carry isn't AM, as long as the person on the carry is good enough.
I would say the opposite, for the first 20 minutes your team is only as good as your disablers/nukers are. A good carry is useless if he can't hit anyone. And Antimage's Blink is only going to get him so far. Your long term prospects are dem if your carry isn't any good though, but if you have some communication you should be able to play around that.
The scenario is 30 minutes in.
I've never played a Dota-like game before, just got into the beta, and I've been playing bot games trying to get into the swing of things. I think I'm getting used to last hitting and denying, but I've been using nothing but ranged characters and I think I should be trying to figure out how to last hit and deny in melee. So who's a good melee hero for a rank amateur? I've been thinking Tidehunter, because it doesn't seem like he needs to do a whole lot other than slam groups of enemy heroes with his ultimate ability, so all I'd need to do is get boots and a Blink Dagger and then I could keep practicing keeping Observer Wards up all game, which I'm still getting used to. Not sure if there's a better option than him, though.
Oh. Well, how the support use their later game skill can still really change the tide of a team battle. Most supports do have some great disables or nukes, and them using it on the right target can help a lot. A crappy lion KS a low health guy with his ult rather then using it on the enemy carry can make all the difference. Plus, the carry can't do much if he gets stunned locked or Eul'sed.
Togglesworlh
Banned
So am I, but you keep bringing it down to specific situations, instead of a general hypothetical.
I know it's a game all about the specifics, but from the start I was never talking in that context.
whats more important, the fact that cm got her slow off or the am whos had 700gpm the whole game?
Bad support/bad carry both going to be dieing a lot, and have no items. Support with no items can still function, carry without items cannot. Simple as that.
Togglesworlh
Banned
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I think what he means is that a bad support can cause their team to lose similar in a way to a carry.
If we remove the bad player from the equation, we have 4v5 with the other team having the advantage.
If in a situation where both sides are reasonably farmed, both sides decide to commit to a teamfight, the team with the bad player may lose because in that specific situation, that bad players input(if good) was required to deal with the enemy team which would result in a victory for that team. But because of that player being bad, his resources were not committed to the fight resulting in some enemies not being dealt with that would of been had said player been actually a good support and committed his resources to that fight.
It could also go the other way, where the 4 player team manages to win due to player skill or some other factor.
With a carry, it could result in a loss if said carry is bad and there is no one to pick up after them/compensate.
I imagine though that it would be a lot harder to recover if the carry your team is built upon is really bad or disconnects, versus a support character who is or probably shouldn't be the lynchpin of your team.
If we remove the bad player from the equation, we have 4v5 with the other team having the advantage.
If in a situation where both sides are reasonably farmed, both sides decide to commit to a teamfight, the team with the bad player may lose because in that specific situation, that bad players input(if good) was required to deal with the enemy team which would result in a victory for that team. But because of that player being bad, his resources were not committed to the fight resulting in some enemies not being dealt with that would of been had said player been actually a good support and committed his resources to that fight.
It could also go the other way, where the 4 player team manages to win due to player skill or some other factor.
With a carry, it could result in a loss if said carry is bad and there is no one to pick up after them/compensate.
I imagine though that it would be a lot harder to recover if the carry your team is built upon is really bad or disconnects, versus a support character who is or probably shouldn't be the lynchpin of your team.
what else is it about? BZMs logic seems pretty crystalline.
- Status