Second Quest is almost done though, and the "third" quest is a simple 1v1 mid lane only game. Maybe Valve could even quickly implement the last hit minigame, and from looking at the files I think they are also working on a tutorial that just replays parts of a game and gives an idea about game flow.
Dota 2 Beta Thread V: Real Talk Strikes Back [Tutorials]
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Really, I thought it would be more involved considering they had a whole map for it, I was expecting more like 5 'quests'
Imp the Dimp
Member
Is that build actually legit? The discussion about the viability of that build in that particular thread is pretty heated.
Please don't actually do it, it's the worst. I had a Spectre do it in a game I was in and it was an absolute waste, cost us the game. Unless the other team is made up entirely of squishy heroes or you already have the game won, it's such a worthless and unnecessary build.
Keylime
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Without being able to click the link at work...I'm going to guess a Refresher Orb is involved. :lol
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
I wouldn't listen to that guy if I were you.
He also builds a ganker alchemist that completely ignores Greevil's Greed. His end game items are usually blink dagger, MoC, necro book, and boots of speed (yes the first one).
It's kind of sad, considering you can farm about 3 mid-late game items in 25 minutes without even ganking. lol. welp.
He also builds a ganker alchemist that completely ignores Greevil's Greed. His end game items are usually blink dagger, MoC, necro book, and boots of speed (yes the first one).
It's kind of sad, considering you can farm about 3 mid-late game items in 25 minutes without even ganking. lol. welp.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Is that 11 page PCGamer article worth paying 4.99 for?
What's the point of all the Ethereal Blades? Just max agility per slot?
Support-ganker Alchemist is really legit.
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
I'm sure it works because of his ridiculous 4 second stun, 360 physical damage nuke that increases with armor reduction, but he has better potential late game than as a mid-game ganker.
If your team is full of carries, he'd probably fit well as a ganker, but if you're even in mid tier games, he'll be left to be the carry.
By the time you hit 30 minutes, your mid-game ganker alchemist potential falls off heavily because you could have had an AC and BKB by then. Hit 35 minutes and you have a basher to somewhat counter the other team's BKBs. Hit 40 minutes and you'll have an AC, Abyssal, BKB, Treads, and a 4K gold item + buy back.
Compare that to a ganker Alch who has an MoC, Blink, Necrobook, and boots of speed.
And if i buy Midas-Battlefury on Ogre Magi he's gonna be almost fullslotted at 40 minutes, i don't see how that's relevant. You're running him in a different role in which he's somewhat good at, you can't expect hard carry farm.
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
Ogre Magi doesn't have Greevil's Gold, and you won't be allowed to free farm for 40 minutes straight to make that full slotted inventory. Plus what's he going to do with a full slotted inventory compared to an alchemist who gets a ridiculous DPS boost simply from his ulti alone. An AC giving +55 attack speed gives more on an Alchemist than any other hero.
It's relevant because what most ganker alchs have in the 30 minute mark just pales in comparison to what most carry alchs have in the 30 minute mark.
Also, maybe the majority of the carry alchemists are shit because they're new at it, but an Alchemist really only needs treads+AC to start joining teamfights. The ones who sit in jungle for 50 minutes straight are terrible.
Dinosaur Tamer
Member
That can only be relevant if he was supoosed to carry in the first place. You can win G1 with players, who don't get greed on Alchemist until later in the game. It's all about your game plan.
Ganker Alchemist is actually really good. It's not relevant or interesting to say carry Alchemist is better because it's a different role with unique properties and applications. I've ran support Alch in games where we already have a position one carry. Support Alchemist typically ends up with way more gold in the midgame compared to other supports because he can flash farm with acid spray and a level of greevils gold. He's tankier than other supports. He hurts like hell with MoC. It works, it's good, it may not be his optimal position but it's fun.
I'm interested to hear why you think that's the case. I get it for the armor myself.
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
Well everything is about the game plan. My problem with a ganking alchemist is I don't see why you wouldn't choose him to carry in the first place. It's as if you choose to play OD as a support because of his Essence Aura and Astral Imprisonment. He's going to be tons stronger than any other support because of his Arcane's Orb and Sanity's Eclipse just as how Alchemist is going to be incredibly tanky compared to other supports. His carry potential is just far better.
Anyway, I'm just going to call it quits because I don't want this to delve into a heated argument. I do understand that he works well as a ganker if the lineup calls for it; I just don't agree with playing him solely as a ganker because you believe him to be optimal as a VS 2.0.
Because his ulti gives him 1.0 BAT.
How does that mean that it gives more on alch?
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
Are you legitly asking because you're curious or because you think I'm wrong? I'm saying it gives more on Alchemist because it gives him more attacks per second than another hero with a 1.7 BAT.
If you think I'm wrong, just say it. I don't mean that sarcastically either. I haven't calculated the difference so maybe I am wrong.
In reply to your edited post: I also get it for the armor, but the extra attack speed it gives works well with his ultimate. It almost feels like it was made for Alchemist with his terrible armor, 1.0 BAT ulti, and his Acid Spray.
The Luna was a shitty BR player and the Silencer was AFK for a good portion of the game. Even the the Silencer underestimated the SK's spell because he tried to curse him but SK would just use his 30 mana spell to destroy Silencer and Luna. They shouldn't have lost the lane but the real bad player was the mid Tiny who not only lost mid hard but came to gank bot only once when top he had easy kills.
I didn't really care about the match I was just having fun with various spells especially the SK Stun and Crit spell. I even stole a Ravage.
Gully State
Member
I started playing NP lately and I just don't understand how so many NP's just AFK jungle. If you just watch the map even a little bit, you can pretty much be in on any potential gank which basically a significant burst of reliable gold early on.
Lol what kind of trench game is this?
I play on the South African server, which limits my pub game partners to two choices because there are only a few 1000 players
1000+ game DotA gods who wreck everything
2 game noobs who dont understand anything about DotA, not even what a TP scroll is
Its a hard life
His reasoning was that:
1: basher procs on ranged attacks (facepalm)
2: easier to secure kills with a refresher (and not like, an orchid/scythe)
3: mana boots help him gank
He also didnt skill trees till lvl 8
top 1%
of retards
I just wondered if there was any other reason why you'd think IAS was better other than the lower BAT, not to expose you as being wrong, I could have missed something.
iirc the BAT doesn't matter for item choices if you want to maximize your dps, so it's not really better in that sense (but the armor is great for alch and attack speed is not by any means bad, so it's a great item recommendation anyway)
Obviously getting attack speed items with a lower BAT is a great idea if you want to go basher.
So, I don't think the synergy is quite as strong as people make it out to be.
It isn't a heated argument, it's just a discussion.
Sometimes you have a different carry already snatched up. Sometimes (in CM) you might want to pick up a support Alch to fool your opponents into thinking your carry has already been selected. Sometimes you just want a very powerful level 1 roamer (Alch being one of the best roamers in the game). No one is arguing he should only be a ganker, you're arguing he should only be a carry and I respectfully disagree. It's not equivalent to your support OD because OD can't roam, depends heavily on levels and farm for arcane orb and sanity's eclipse to be effective, can't flash farm, has very little damage output with no levels to assist in ganks, and has a terrible set-up disable until around level 5.
Playing support Alch is a lot different than playing Vengeful spirit, even if they both have a stun and a -armor spell.
His reasoning and item choices are very poor but I think basher is a good item on ranged heroes and absolutely core on Sniper.
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
Yeah. That's the only reason really. lol. I just like the synergy with the ult.
I always go basher on Alchemist. Gives some strength and the bashes are just incredibly important against people who buy BKB. The abyssal then gives him the damage he really needs so he doesn't become a dink dink hero.
Yeah. That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Threads on this stuff usually don't explain that kind of stuff. It's funny because I was disagreeing on playing solely a ganker alch and I'm doing the exact same thing. welp.
shira
Member
moar guides plzzzz
poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
Sure. Always get a basher on ranged heroes. Now go out and play my friend! Show them what you know!
On a serious note, is there a time to not pick up a basher as a carry alchemist (except say they have a PA or someone who goes butterfly)?
It is legit, check out the vods...and it's heated because people don't want to accept that you can build Spectre around her haunts...as if there is a "pure" way of building a hero.
In 2 weeks I believe...
You were right. Attack speed scales better as your BAT gets lower.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Uh. The Purge from Bloodseeker is actually pretty good.
Yeah, BAT is largely irrelevant when it comes to item choices. It does make IAS better, but it also makes every other damage stat better too. So if the question is "how well does this carry scale with farm" then BAT is relevant; if the question is "which items should I build on this carry" then BAT can largely be ignored. At least in terms of raw DPS; item procs like the stun from Skull Basher are far more reliable with a fast BAT.
AC is still a great choice for Alchemist, though. The synergy is just in the armor reduction (synergizes with the armor reduction from Acid Spray) and the bonus armor (synergizes with the bonus health from Chemical Rage.) The IAS is still great, just not a reason to value AC over other items.
Keylime
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Has anyone every tried a team with global AOE nukes?
Like Zues + Spectre + Silencer w/Aghs + NP on the same team? You could do so much global damage that team fights should be a joke.
I'd love to see a game where anyone does it.
Like Zues + Spectre + Silencer w/Aghs + NP on the same team? You could do so much global damage that team fights should be a joke.
I'd love to see a game where anyone does it.
I did, with Zeus/Spectre/Silencer/Clock/AA
We lost hard because they pushed us in really fast..
I was the silencer and didn't even get close to aghs, was a baaad game.
Keylime
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poweredbykimchi
Neo Member
Didn't Merlini and his team used to do this in Dota 1 a long time ago?
Schweinehund
Member
Give kinky builds a try before you knock them, I was pretty hesitant on armlet on non strength heroes until I tried it. Armlet PA is how I roll with her in most of my games. Really want to give it a whirl on troll warlord sometime, he has similar pitfalls to pa.
Yes, cause global strat was a good team comp back then.
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