Support NeoGAF

[Folder]

I don’t really like RPGs too much, though Zelda ripped off my head. I never played it on the SNES so I was cast into a world of joy when it was launched for GBA last year or the year before.

So I decided to play it again and I’m just not enjoying it. I walk around thinking, “I know what that does, I want to do this and I can’t,” and it’s pissing me off.

We have RPG devotees on our staff but they look at me like I’m crazy for asking this. But that’s because they are devoted beyond reason. So I was just wondering how you find second run throughs of such games…

 

[Pellham]

I don't even consider Zelda an RPG series...

 

[ferricide]

play fable -- you can do whatever you want!

Spoiler

not actually true.

 

[Folder]

I don't even consider Zelda an RPG series...

Um, that's what they said. Is this becuase it's actually engaging to play and not just a way of frittering away time? Seriously, there's stuff to do in it, rather than, you know, pressing butons and watching the same magic sequence over and over...

 

[ferricide]

Um, that's what they said. Is this becuase it's actually engaging to play and not just a way of frittering away time? Seriously, there's stuff to do in it, rather than, you know, pressing butons and watching the same magic sequence over and over...

this is just the kind of question that could not possibly warrant a serious answer.

but here you go: it's not typically considered an RPG by most people because it doesn't ascribe to the conventions of the RPG genre (as you so glibly described them.) it has a high level of action elements, and it's not story or character-driven. it doesn't allow for character customization or leveling in the traditional sense.

 

[Folder]

this is just the kind of question that could not possibly warrant a serious answer.

but here you go: it's not typically considered an RPG by most people because it doesn't ascribe to the conventions of the RPG genre (as you so glibly described them.) it has a high level of action elements, and it's not story or character-driven. it doesn't allow for character customization or leveling in the traditional sense.

Not trying to pick a fick. Sorry, that was an edited version of our office genre battle from the last five years. But back to the point, isn't that an action RPG and therefore still an RPG? And back to the first point, your traditional RPGs, can you play them again and again without thinking that you are wasting your time?

 

[ferricide]

But back to the point, isn't that an action RPG and therefore still an RPG?

well certainly it's up for debate. hence 'most people'. in discussion, genres are useful as a shorthand for talking about things and imparting information quickly. thus i wouldn't describe zelda as an "RPG" typically, cos the image most people would get is final fantasy, etc. and it's quite a different game than that.

genres describe a set of general conventions. thus artistically they're useful because games in genres (and film/book/music/etc genres) play up to (or against) our expectations.

And back to the first point, your traditional RPGs, can you play them again and again without thinking that you are wasting your time?

depends. sounds like you're coming at it from the angle where you don't find them compelling in the first place. you could ask a question like that about any genre (don't you get tired of running over hookers again and again? etc.) everyone would give you an answer that delves into taste and nuance and if you don't agree, you would just say "oh, i see" or "whatever" or something. every popular genre is compelling to a large swath of people. otherwise it wouldn't exist.

 

[callous]

I'm a complete RPG nut, but I have yet to complete an RPG more than once. I've started re-playing some games a few times because they were just so good I wanted more, but I have always ended up quitting pretty quickly. It's like you said. "I already know what this does". I have no doubt, though, that I will be replaying some of my favourites when enough time has passed for me to forget enough to make it interesting again.

Mind you, this goes for most games that aren't racing or fighting games .,.. excepting my 8 to 10 runs through RE2.

 

[Folder]

well certainly it's up for debate. hence 'most people'. in discussion, genres are useful as a shorthand for talking about things and imparting information quickly. thus i wouldn't describe zelda as an "RPG" typically, cos the image most people would get is final fantasy, etc. and it's quite a different game than that.

genres describe a set of general conventions. thus artistically they're useful because games in genres (and film/book/music/etc genres) play up to (or against) our expectations.


depends. sounds like you're coming at it from the angle where you don't find them compelling in the first place. you could ask a question like that about any genre (don't you get tired of running over hookers again and again? etc.) everyone would give you an answer that delves into taste and nuance and if you don't agree, you would just say "oh, i see" or "whatever" or something. every popular genre is compelling to a large swath of people. otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Avoiding the five year argument of boredom, what about score-based games, fighting games or other competitive games? Your mention of GTA is diluted because it comprises certain RPG elements, in that you play a role, at length. Zelda was one of the most compelling gaming experiences I ever had.
Do you ever play anything through twice?

 

[boutrosinit]

If we're talking character-led adventures, I've only played Riddick and Ratchet and Clank 2 twice. Riddick was purely for the joy of it so I could test myself. RnC 2 because the game dyanmic is changed with a combo counter/score multiplier thing and you get extra weapons and stuff to collect. I wanted to do Ninja Gaiden again on hard but got bored halfway.

Super Metroid (fucking WOW) and the odd classic that I haven't touched in years - Shadowrun and Final Fantasy 5 (two different endings and an awesome story) on SNES are the others. That's about it. Games need a sense of organicness for me to play them again. I don't want to feel like I'm remembering moves like some kind of coreographed sequence but more 'how can I do this bit differently' and few games will allow that.

 

[Tsubaki]

Most people don't consider Zelda an RPG because of what ferricide already mentioned: Lack of character customization, lack of character growth (leveling up), lack of story/character emphasis. It's not so much that it's action oriented, just that aside from walking around in an overhead perspective, it doesn't resemble an RPG very much.

Um, that's what they said. Is this becuase it's actually engaging to play and not just a way of frittering away time? Seriously, there's stuff to do in it, rather than, you know, pressing butons and watching the same magic sequence over and over...

While what you describe is the typical j-RPG, please note that some jRPG fans are also against those mindless pieces of garbage. There are games that utilize timing and positioning (Panzer Dragoon Saga) and others that require more strategic thinking to win (Growlanser). Of course, you still really are "pressing buttons and watching the same magic sequence over and over", but Zelda and even GTA is really not much more when you come down to it. The difference is, not all jRPGs are as mindless as the well known ones...

 

[ferricide]

Avoiding the five year argument of boredom, what about score-based games, fighting games or other competitive games?

score based games? you mean like shmups? they're endlessly compelling to devotees, but most people couldn't give a shit. not sure where this really falls in terms of this discussion.

i think multiplayer competitive games certainly have a more enduring lifespan, which is one reason they've proven so popular.

obviously, i wasn't arguing that every single game is a repetitive task -- just that, broadly, this argument applies to a wide variety of genres.

also, my point is that a game is a repetitive task is "so what"? some repetitive tasks are fun. the fun is in improving your execution of the task in successive tries. and in RPGs, it's about enjoying the narrative, accruing power (leveling, abilities, and equipment) and experiencing the world of the game. these are all personally exceptionally compelling facets of a game for me.

Your mention of GTA is diluted because it comprises certain RPG elements, in that you play a role, at length.

i don't see how that 'dilutes' my point. if you're now arguing that any linear game with repetitive gameplay elements is (essentally) an "RPG" and thus ascribes to the argument, what's exempt? only multiplayer games, which we've just covered.

besides, i was just being glib. you can be and i can't be? unfair. =P

Zelda was one of the most compelling gaming experiences I ever had.

so what's the big deal if it isn't good (for you) twice? personally i (typically) like replaying a zelda (or zelda-style) game, but that's because i find a pure joy in the mechanics of zelda, and i'm much more proficient on replay. but sure, there's not much to discover on the second go-round.

Do you ever play anything through twice?

sure. i recently played through tales of symphonia a second time. no, the story wasn't interesting the second time, but the gameplay was, for a variety of reasons.

one of the reasons it's fun to play through an RPG a second time is that you know what you're doing and can really pulverize the game, even if it gave you trouble the first time. that's fun. that's why breath of fire: dragon quarter could get away with making it a core gameplay mechanic, in fact. (just barely, IMO, but hey.)

 

[RevenantKioku]

If you wanna go through that thing that RPGs are the same each time, well. Have you ever watched a movie more than once? I mean, personally, I can barely sit through most movie the first time, but that's just me.
There are only a few RPGs I can play over and over, mostly Parasite Eve and Chrono Trigger.
But there are seriously so many RPGs, I'm trouble finding the time for most to get one play-through, although that's not really the root of your question.

 

[Azih]

Adventure game is my way of describing Zelda.

 

[ferricide]

Have you ever watched a movie more than once?

i meant to say this in my last message, but forgot.

as for me, some movies i'll watch dozens of times. hell, i watched videodrome three times this week (two different commentary tracks on the new DVD.)