Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.

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Skeeter49 said:
She's also the only one smart enough to think outside of the box of just angering the person to get them to achieve SSJ.

Not even Cabba considered that a possibility.
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Yep, this is fantastic development for, so far, the most talented, and only, female Super Saiyan we've seen so far. We will find out whether or not Kale surpasses her in some significant way. I wonder if Kale is so gifted that she'll think to focus her energy in an entirely different type of way, thus leading to the different kind of Super Saiyan transformation? Perhaps that will be considered a style of Super Saiyan that is the specialty of Universe 6.

Goku's actions actually saved all universes in a funny way. He gave them a fighting chance. Zeno does not necessarily need to clear his actions with anyone in particular from what we all understand, so what could have happened one day in all the different universes is that they were just wiped out in an instant, no warning, no nothing. Only the angels would have been recalled to stave off destruction themselves.

Without Goku none of the competing universes would be competing in this tournament right now. And credit doesn't just go to Goku, credit also goes to Beerus and Champa. If not for their little quarrel, leading to the U6 v U7 tournament - the very thing that provided Zeno with the motivation to hold this tournament in the first place - none of the other universes including their own would have any chance whatsoever of avoiding complete destruction.
 
The Adder said:
Once again, it has ensured that 8 universes die for sure right now as opposed to maybe 9 at some point in the future if Zen'o ever remembered to do it.

Or as the analogy put it, 8 people gored now as opposed maybe 9 people who were planning on getting in the pen at some unspecified point in the future.

That does not somehow make the person who knowingly opened the gate in the first place not an asshole.
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This is just you creating a narrative that doesn't exist, zen'o 'maybe forgetting it completely' is not an option unless you accept the grand priest is a liar.
What we know:
1. There are too many universes, a bunch will be deleted.
2. The tournament ensures the survival of one of the deletion candidates.

Anything else is conjecture.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
It doesn't matter what they say though, a friend is a friend to goku.
I don't understand why just the warnings are taken as most important, when this common thread of goku's personality has been a very important part throughout all of DB and he has only been proven wrong once, when he showed mercy on freeza.
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The friend thing is irrelevant really. The whole ordeal didn't prove that they weren't friends. Zeno still likes Goku, but it doesn't stop him from being dangerous and unpredictable. He still ignored those warnings for his own selfish reasons.
 
people seem to think that goku is the reason that zeno remembered he was gonna erase the universes in the first place....but really anything could've made him remember so i'm not gonna blame goku for being the thing that did, like seriously if zeno had remembered 1000 years from now instead and didn't have a mortal friend do you think there would've been any hope?
 
caliph95 said:
Whis would then remind him he has two modified humans on their teams and comedically shut up
or get this look:
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Buu not going to the tournament secretly saved U7, cause the grand priest would have rekt them if he noticed Buu had absorbed several Kaiohshins
 
Icyflamez96 said:
The friend thing is irrelevant really. The whole ordeal didn't prove that they weren't friends. Zeno still likes Goku, but it doesn't stop him from being dangerous and unpredictable. He still ignored those warnings for his own selfish reasons.
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As I mentioned in a previous post, the friend thing is extremely important, it creates the distinction in how goku sees zen'o. He's wearing friendship glasses, to him the dangers others have warned him about don't exist, and he's right, they don't exist, not in his specific interaction with zen'o because it's unique.
 
HeroR said:
Eight that was going to die regardless and he will at least save one of them. And that analogy doesn't work since the bull was going to attack people regardless of the gate was opened.

And this narrator "Zen'o may have forgot" doesn't work since this was something Zen'o talked about often, unless you think the Grand Priest is lying.
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1. You clearly didn't read my post very well according to your "that analogy doesn't work" statement.

2. The Grand Priest says Zen'o has often said there were too many universes and that the tournament presented the perfect opportunity to do something about that. Not that Zen'o often said there were 9 too many. Not that Zen'o often talked about erasing them. And in all this time he hadn't. Until Goku's boredom gave them the perfect opportunity. To top it off, Whis posits specifically that low level universes are being backspaced.

Not every universe is 7 or 9. 11, for one has competent is actively working to improve itself. In another thousand years, who's to say they and/or another universe or two don't stop being low level, taking them out of the crosshairs of Zen'o?

Goku may have saved a universe, he may have saved no universe, or he may have gotten 1 or more universes destroyed that wouldn't have been. Regardless, his actions were reckless and entirely motivated by selfishness. He disregarded the warnings of danger for no reason but to satisfy his fight addiction. That is assholes behavior.
 
If
Frieza's
inclusion on the team had been known from the first promo material and had Buu not been misleading shown to be a member of the team, I wonder if people would be more okay with Buu being excluded. The Uub mention from a few weeks ago makes me suspect Uub will come into play eventually and I'd imagine Buu will get a lot of screen time in that arc
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
As I mentioned in a previous post, the friend thing is extremely important, it creates the distinction in how goku sees zen'o. He's wearing friendship glasses, to him the dangers others have warned him about don't exist, and he's right, they don't exist, not in his specific interaction with zen'o because it's unique.
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My point is - they are friends, but friend or not, he is still dangerous or unpredictable, and he ignored that warning anyway because he was so adamant at fulfilling his desire. Whis and Beerus knew that then being on good terms wouldn't stop Zeno from being, well, him.

And this wouldn't be the first time Goku did something assholish for selfish reasons, so it's not like it would be out of character. It's reasonable that one would see his actions here as being influenced by those character traits.
 
Icyflamez96 said:
Whis and Beerus knew that then being on good terms wouldn't stop Zeno from being, well, him.
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How? Based on the reactions from, well, everyone, this behavior from zen'o and his interaction with goku seems to be something completely unique.
Beerus' reactions aren't one from someone who's seen zen'o being amicable with anyone.
 
Thoughts:

1. I can excuse Caulfla's transformation because she's so cool; we finally have a Saiyan that acts like a Saiyan again. Plus, she's irritable enough that I can buy her having already unlocked her anger power or whatever. If Kale's going to go Super Saiyan the same way, that'll be lame. I think Cabba going Super Saiyan was already lame, because it revolved around Cabba being such a pushover that he took Dadgeta's threats at face value.

2. Krillin was the real disappointment for me. His whole thing has been being scared out of his wits, knowing he's fighting someone much stronger than himself, but choosing to be on the front line anyway. Besides making Krillin look bad, it feels out of character, and goes against the recent attempt to make him a martial artist again.

3. This is my first time watching a NEP for this series because I'm really curious as to if Freeza will replace Buu. I feel like it's kind of weak that they've been advertising Buu, that they might have him sleep out of two tournaments in a row and three Super arcs in total, and that they're bring Freeza back when we had the movie followed by Poison Freeza. But it would also be interesting to see Freeza on the heroes' side, so I'll reserve judgment.

4. I was pretty sure that the Slim Buu form was just a joke, so I'm not all that surprised that it's gone. I figured that he was just maintaining the form to look strong and his musculature doesn't actually relate to his strength, so he'd just pop back into his original form when he got serious.

5. As a guy who wears glasses, I feel like Gohan needs a better-looking pair. Or at least one that matches his gi better, if he's going to be wearing that all the time.
 
If Caulifla's a supposed genius, I wonder if she'd figure out SSJ3 faster than Gotenks did, and even a Super's version of SSJ4.
 
Piers said:
If Caulifla's a supposed genius, I wonder if she'd figure out SSJ3 faster than Gotenks did, and even a Super's version of SSJ4.
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You mean she wasn't already SSJ3?

I do like how Caulifla figures out Super Saiyan way faster than Cabba does, and her seems to be stronger than his without losing the form. Confirms to me that Cabba is a joke.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
How? Based on the reactions from, well, everyone, this behavior from zen'o and his interaction with goku seems to be something completely unique.
Beerus' reactions aren't one from someone who's seen zen'o being amicable with anyone.
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What are you basing that off of? Beerus and Whis's judgement on the matter is much more informed than Goku's. The angels seem to get along just fine with Zeno so surely Beerus knows that he can get along with people, just that he can be dangerous an unpredictable, which was proven by the stakes of the tournament.
 
SenjutsuSage said:
Yep, this is fantastic development for, so far, the most talented, and only, female Super Saiyan we've seen so far. We will find out whether or not Kale surpasses her in some significant way. I wonder if Kale is so gifted that she'll think to focus her energy in an entirely different type of way, thus leading to the different kind of Super Saiyan transformation? Perhaps that will be considered a style of Super Saiyan that is the specialty of Universe 6.
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Kale's leaked description seems to explain her transformation.
She transforms into a berserker SSJ due to withholding her anger rather than lashing out.
 
HeroR said:
You need a tail for Super Saiyan 4 since it's a compact version of the Great Ape.
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Right — that's why I said Super's version and not GT's concept of SSJ4. ;p
It's a bit misleading but I wasn't sure how to say it's above SSJ3 but not the god forms, or SSJ4 either — other than this inflated sentence just now.
 
Icyflamez96 said:
What are you basing that off of? Beerus and Whis's judgement on the matter is much more informed than Goku's. The angels seem to get along just fine with Zeno so surely Beerus knows that he can get along with people, just that he can be dangerous an unpredictable, which was proven by the stakes of the tournament.
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The angels aren't "amicable" with zen'o, at least not from what we've seen, all of them adress zen'o as servants.
The only one that's seen making suggestions to zen'o has been the grand priest and even he does this in a subservient manner.

Goku's interaction with zen'o is unique as nothing as carefree has been shown before/yet.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
The angels aren't "amicable" with zen'o, at least not from what we've seen, all of them adress zen'o as servants.
The only one that's seen making suggestions to zen'o has been the grand priest and even he does this in a subservient manner.

Goku's interaction with zen'o is unique as nothing as carefree has been shown before/yet.
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Even so, their opinion is still much more well informed than Goku's and they ended up being right about it anyway.
 
L Thammy said:
Thoughts:

1. I can excuse Caulfla's transformation because she's so cool; we finally have a Saiyan that acts like a Saiyan again. Plus, she's irritable enough that I can buy her having already unlocked her anger power or whatever. If Kale's going to go Super Saiyan the same way, that'll be lame. I think Cabba going Super Saiyan was already lame, because it revolved around Cabba being such a pushover that he took Dadgeta's threats at face value.

2. Krillin was the real disappointment for me. His whole thing has been being scared out of his wits, knowing he's fighting someone much stronger than himself, but choosing to be on the front line anyway. Besides making Krillin look bad, it feels out of character, and goes against the recent attempt to make him a martial artist again.

3. This is my first time watching a NEP for this series because I'm really curious as to if Freeza will replace Buu. I feel like it's kind of weak that they've been advertising Buu, that they might have him sleep out of two tournaments in a row and three Super arcs in total, and that they're bring Freeza back when we had the movie followed by Poison Freeza. But it would also be interesting to see Freeza on the heroes' side, so I'll reserve judgment.

4. I was pretty sure that the Slim Buu form was just a joke, so I'm not all that surprised that it's gone. I figured that he was just maintaining the form to look strong and his musculature doesn't actually relate to his strength, so he'd just pop back into his original form when he got serious.

5. As a guy who wears glasses, I feel like Gohan needs a better-looking pair. Or at least one that matches his gi better, if he's going to be wearing that all the time.
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Black frames like he has in EoZ would be better.

Edit: Even better would be if they fixed his eye proportions with the glasses on...
 
Icyflamez96 said:
Even so, their opinion is still much more well informed than Goku's and they ended up being right about it anyway.
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I dunno why you keep repeating this.
They didn't end up being "right", because goku ensured the survival of one universe.
This makes them dead wrong in regards to goku interacting with zen'o. Heck Vados admits this even lmao.
 
Icyflamez96 said:
Even so, their opinion is still much more well informed than Goku's and they ended up being right about it anyway.
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They were wrong since if Goku didn't invoked himself with Zen'o, U7 would have been erased with no warning. They also claim Zen'o would be upset about time travel. He gave no crap.
 
L Thammy said:
2. Krillin was the real disappointment for me. His whole thing has been being scared out of his wits, knowing he's fighting someone much stronger than himself, but choosing to be on the front line anyway. Besides making Krillin look bad, it feels out of character, and goes against the recent attempt to make him a martial artist again.
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I think him wanting to drop out was less him actually being scared and more him being upset at Goku for lying to him.
NeonZ said:
Kale's leaked description seems to explain her transformation.
She transforms into a berserker SSJ due to withholding her anger rather than lashing out.
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Not quite,
it's pent up stress that causes her to transform, not anger.
 
The thing with Krillin was they turned his touching moment into an attempt at a joke, at the expense of his development.

It wasn't too bad since it was clearly meant to be a joke, not Krillin seriously being too scared to fight. But it still had some cringe.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
I dunno why you keep repeating this.
They didn't end up being "right", because goku ensured the survival of one universe.
This makes them dead wrong in regards to goku interacting with zen'o. Heck Vados admits this even lmao.
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HeroR said:
They were wrong since if Goku didn't invoked himself with Zen'o, U7 would have been erased with no warning. They also claim Zen'o would be upset about time travel. He gave no crap.
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It doesn't matter that it wasn't Goku who caused Zeno to make the decision to destroy the lesser universes. The reveal of it still proved that he was dangerous and unpredictable and Goku being buddy with him wouldn't prevent that. Just because he had it planned all along doesn't make it not dangerous and unpredictable to the outside perspective.

But even if they were right or not, it doesn't work against my main point of Goku acting assholish by ignoring that warning because of his own selfishness in the first place.
 
Icyflamez96 said:
But even if they were right or not, it doesn't work against my main point of Goku acting assholish by ignoring that warning because of his own selfishness in the first place.
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This has been discussed already, the dangers don't exist in goku's unique interaction with zen'o, he "ignored" these warnings because he felt they didn't apply to him, because he and zen'o are friends.

These warnings might've been correct for anyone else, but they are dead wrong for goku.
 
Just followed the quote chain to the beginning. Wow, this is a long argument. So the core of the issue is whether or not Goku's a bad guy? My thinking:

First off, Toriyama's said repeatedly that Toei made Goku into too much of a hero. I'm pretty sure that's meant to be a focus of this arc. Goku has no ill will to anyone unless they harm or threaten others, but he also has no concern until the threat is right there. He doesn't seek out wrongs to right them as the Pride Troopers do - again, it's the focus of this arc - but just sort stomps out evil beings that happen to have the bad luck of bumping into him. Freeza would still be running around if he wasn't racing for the Dragonballs at the same time as Gohan and Krillin were.

Same thing applies with Zeno. Zeno is extraordinarily powerful, and it seems like he's willing to use that to suit himself, like when he threatens his own guards. He is legitimately dangerous as the rest of the gods realize, which means they all walk on eggshells around him, which contributes to his boredom.

Goku breaks the boredom, so him playing with Zeno isn't particularly dangerous, but Zeno himself remains as dangerous as before. Whenever Goku interacts with Zeno, he's walking a line where he can mess up and trigger Zeno's wrath, he just hasn't done so yet. This is where Goku's a jerk: this has been explained to him and he can understand it, but he either refuses to accept it or just doesn't care.

Same thing applies to the Tournament of Power. Goku didn't know anything about universes being destroyed so he doesn't get responsibility for that. But he knew that interacting with Zeno is a risk that, in the worst case, can result in universes get wiped. He chose to do it anyway despite being warned. Not even to have fun with Zeno, but entirely to satisfy his own desire to fight strong people.

He deliberately chose his own enjoyment over the safety of the rest of the multiverse, much like when he deliberately chose to spare Vegeta so that he could fight him later even though Vegeta was a public menace who hadn't reformed at all.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
This has been discussed already, the dangers don't exist in goku's unique interaction with zen'o, he "ignored" these warnings because he felt they didn't apply to him, because he and zen'o are friends.

These warnings might've been correct for anyone else, but they are dead wrong for goku.
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Not in this case, no, but it doesn't affect the point that his own selfishness had a big role in why he decided to basically just spit in their face anyway. As I said before, this wouldn't be the first time he did something assholish for his own selfish desire and wouldn't exactly be out of character for him. It is reasonable to see that in his actions there, and shouldn't be invalid for anyone else to see it that way either. Esecially how they protrayed that scene. If Goku looked all innocent the whole time then it would have come off differently. The snide look on his face during the scene told me that he was being assholish about it.
 
L Thammy said:
Goku breaks the boredom, so him playing with Zeno isn't particularly dangerous, but Zeno himself remains as dangerous as before. Whenever Goku interacts with Zeno, he's walking a line where he can mess up and trigger Zeno's wrath, he just hasn't done so yet. This is where Goku's a jerk: this has been explained to him and he can understand it, but he either refuses to accept it or just doesn't care.
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Nah he knows, he even calls future zen'o to rid them of zamasu and then instantly realises what's about to happen when future zen'o decides to do what he does.
This only confirms how goku views present zen'o, he knows what he's capable of, but he also knows that they are friends.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
Nah he knows, he even calls future zen'o to rid them of zamasu and then instantly realises what's about to happen when future zen'o decides to do what he does.
This only confirms how goku views present zen'o, he knows what he's capable of, but he also knows that they are friends.
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That doesn't contradict the point that he can mess up, and if he does, universes can be at risk. Goku just ignores those warnings and does what he wants.
 
Morlas996 said:
people seem to think that goku is the reason that zeno remembered he was gonna erase the universes in the first place....but really anything could've made him remember so i'm not gonna blame goku for being the thing that did, like seriously if zeno had remembered 1000 years from now instead and didn't have a mortal friend do you think there would've been any hope?
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Well it wasn't anything it was Goku that's why the universal destruction is the stipulation of the tournament.
 
The Adder said:
1. You clearly didn't read my post very well according to your "that analogy doesn't work" statement.

2. The Grand Priest says Zen'o has often said there were too many universes and that the tournament presented the perfect opportunity to do something about that. Not that Zen'o often said there were 9 too many. Not that Zen'o often talked about erasing them. And in all this time he hadn't. Until Goku's boredom gave them the perfect opportunity. To top it off, Whis posits specifically that low level universes are being backspaced.

Not every universe is 7 or 9. 11, for one has competent is actively working to improve itself. In another thousand years, who's to say they and/or another universe or two don't stop being low level, taking them out of the crosshairs of Zen'o?

Goku may have saved a universe, he may have saved no universe, or he may have gotten 1 or more universes destroyed that wouldn't have been. Regardless, his actions were reckless and entirely motivated by selfishness. He disregarded the warnings of danger for no reason but to satisfy his fight addiction. That is assholes behavior.
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Thanks for pointing this out.
 
NandoGip said:
If the ball doesn't get rolling within the next 4 episodes, I'm going to pretty much lose all my hype for this tournament
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Episode 95, count on it.
Nakao has already recorded a conversation between Freeza and Frost, with how VA recording goes in anime that conversation will take place in the next 2 weeks. So 94 is probably when they get to the tournament grounds.
 
The way I see it
93: Frieza joins the ToP. Kale goes LSSJ

94: With the team shaken, being lied to plus the revival of Frieza, Gohan decides to have a 5 on 5 sparring match to boost morale. He also comes up with fighting poses for each to do, like with the Ginyu's/ Pride Troopers. In this episode Champa scouts out at least one human, and one namekian.

95: Everyone meets at the ToP, they take Buu just in case he wakes up. Champa will only have 9 fighters, and he's worried about that. Frieza
talks with Frost. Decides on joining as a U6 representative.
Beerus is pissed, Champa intervenes and Zeno says it's alright. Beerus is now freaking out. He takes his anger out on Satan, threatening to erase him. Buu wakes up at the end of the episode.

96: Tournament starts, for U7 with the 10 fighters promoted at the beginning of this arc. Right before it starts, Vegeta talks to Cabba at some point in this episode, telling him not to hold back, Cabba then introduces Vegeta to Caulifla and Kale. Vegeta also warns them about Frieza, in case U6 wins, they have a right to know what Frieza is capable of.
 
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