Support NeoGAF

[HeroR]

The fact that Gohan needed to go Ultimate to defeat Jimeze speaks good of him

And I mean, Freezer could take out almost every contestant that fast if he wanted to. Frost got lucky he got the long treatment

Frieza was in base and not even golden. Gohan didn't need Ultimate to defeat Jimeze. He just needed to counter IT, which he couldn't do.

Let's be real, this is Dragon Ball. 95% of the main cast were evil or an antagonist at some point down the line. They'll forgive it when U-7 saves all their worlds with the wish.

What does that have to do with the other universes since they're not U7?

 

[Kevinroc]

Let's be real, this is Dragon Ball. 95% of the main cast were evil or an antagonist at some point down the line. They'll forgive it when U-7 saves all their worlds with the wish.

Just looking at the U7 team.

1: Goku
2: Gohan
3: Roshi

Were not actually evil or antagonistic at any point during the series. (DURING the series, for those of you who want to harp on what an evil baby Goku was until his head injury.)

So that leaves Freeza, Vegeta, Piccolo, 17, 18, Tenshinhan, and Krillin (who, even if he wasn't actually evil, was a real dick during his early training days with Goku.)

 

[B-Dubs]

What does that have to do with the other universes since they're not U7?

The idea that they'll hold a grudge goes against pretty much everything we've seen from this show.

Just looking at the U7 team.

1: Goku
2: Gohan
3: Roshi

Were not actually evil or antagonistic at any point during the series. (DURING the series, for those of you who want to harp on what an evil baby Goku was until his head injury.)

So that leaves Freeza, Vegeta, Piccolo, 17, 18, Tenshinhan, and Krillin (who, even if he wasn't actually evil, was a real dick during his early training days with Goku.)

Exactly. The villains of the series are almost always brought into the main cast, except for Freeza and Cell so far.

 

[HeroR]

Didn't they set up in the RoF arc Frieza knew how to counter IT?
So him doing it in this episode didn't bother me much.

It did bother me Gohan had nothing against it after episode 90. That would have been a great way to tie in episode 90, like maybe Gohan could manipulate his energy in a way to where the Yardrat couldn't sense it.

No. Goku never used IT against Frieza in neither the movie or retelling.

The idea that they'll hold a grudge goes against pretty much everything we've seen from this show.



Exactly. The villains of the series are almost always brought into the main cast, except for Freeza and Cell so far.

The other universes are also not U7 and they have no reason to like U7.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

It's funny to think the androids were less evil than the rest of that group.

 

[B-Dubs]

The other universes are also not U7 and they have no reason to like U7.

Until U7 uses the wish to save all their lives. Even then, look at Vegeta! He did nothing to be liked by everyone and still joined the main cast after Namek.

 

[PapaGreg95]

It's funny to think the androids were less evil than the rest of that group.

I don't know I consider Krillian and maybe Tien to be less evil than the androids

 

[ArchedThunder]

No. Goku never used IT against Frieza in neither the movie or retelling.

Freeza did however mention it in Super's F arc when Goku used it to take Piccolo to the Lookout.

 

[Fulminator]

Toppo called jiren his friend but he seems like a dick lol

 

[Skeeter49]

The yardrat clearly didn't need to hone in on energy to teleport. He was jumping around to spots where there were no fighters, like when he teleported into the air against freeza

Gohan should learn from this guy.

It's not like Gohan knows anyone else you can use IT. No one that's ever around anyway.

Just looking at the U7 team.

1: Goku
2: Gohan
3: Roshi

Were not actually evil or antagonistic at any point during the series. (DURING the series, for those of you who want to harp on what an evil baby Goku was until his head injury.)

So that leaves Freeza, Vegeta, Piccolo, 17, 18, Tenshinhan, and Krillin (who, even if he wasn't actually evil, was a real dick during his early training days with Goku.)

Roshi was evil for a little bit in 89.

 

[caliph95]

Toppo called jiren his friend but he seems like a dick lol

Jiren doesn't have many friends

 

[Kevinroc]

It's funny to think the androids were less evil than the rest of that group.

Krillin was the least evil. But he was still a real dick during his early training days with Goku.

Until U7 uses the wish to save all their lives. Even then, look at Vegeta! He did nothing to be liked by everyone and still joined the main cast after Namek.

Vegeta was just waiting around for Goku at that point (probably to find out what he could about the Super Saiyan transformation) with nowhere else to go and nobody else could tell him what to do.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Maybe he's just stressed.

 

[HeroR]

Until U7 uses the wish to save all their lives. Even then, look at Vegeta! He did nothing to be liked by everyone and still joined the main cast after Namek.

What makes you think U7 will make the wish or Zen'o will just allowed the universe to be brought back since the whole things was 'there're too many universes'?

Again, you're applying how people in U7 act to other universes when you know nothing about them.

 

[B-Dubs]

What makes you think U7 will make the wish or Zen'o will just allowed the universe to be brought back since the whole things was 'there're too many universes'?

Again, you're applying how people in U7 act to other universes when you know nothing about them.

I'm applying the logic from the rest of the series to it's future. If U-7 doesn't save them with the wish then it's all moot in the first place, if they do then the history of the series tells us that no grudge will be held. If they actually still held a grudge it'd be the first time (outside Freeza) and it'd make the introduction of all these new characters completely pointless.

 

[kambaybolongo]

What makes you think U7 will make the wish or Zen'o will just allowed the universe to be brought back since the whole things was 'there're too many universes'?

Again, you're applying how people in U7 act to other universes when you know nothing about them.

Dude that’s totally what will happen though

 

[Kevinroc]

Roshi was evil for a little bit in 89.

Are you talking about when Roshi was being possessed or under a spell or whatever that was? Because I'm not counting that.

 

[caliph95]

Are you talking about when Roshi was being possessed or under a spell or whatever that was? Because I'm not counting that.

I'm guessing him kidnapping the girl to "train" her

 

[Kevinroc]

I'm guessing him kidnapping the girl to "train" her

That was creepy and messed up and I have no idea why they wrote that in such a disgusting manner. They clearly didn't intend to write Roshi as a villain, but holy crap, there are no words.

 

[HeroR]

I'm applying the logic from the rest of the series to it's future. If U-7 doesn't save them with the wish then it's all moot in the first place, if they do then the history of the series tells us that no grudge will be held. If they actually still held a grudge it'd be the first time (outside Freeza) and it'd make the introduction of all these new characters completely pointless.

Right, just like Zamasu was reformed right and became friends with Goku.

The gods hold a grudge against Goku despite being told it was thanks to him that they even had a chance since they were on the chopping block.

It wouldn't be 'pointless'. The point would be that not every needs like U7.

Dude that's totally what will happen though

More like that is the popular belief and the fandom doesn't have a great batting average when predicting Super.

 

[B-Dubs]

Right, just like Zamasu was reformed right and became friends with Goku.

The gods hold a grudge against Goku despite being told it was thanks to him that they even had a chance since they were on the chopping block.

It wouldn't be 'pointless'. The point would be that not every needs like U7.

Zamasu is dead. There's literally nothing to support or deny what I said in this case. There's only a few examples of villains in the series not going good after their arc and they're all dead.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Going all out wasn't the problem. The problem was that Gohan can't counter the IT, despite his own father having it for years and getting the business end of it just a few hours ago.

Gohan is the only person I can think of who has fought against IT and not found a way to counter it to a degree. And his dad has had the technique for literally more than half Gohan's life.

Spoiler

Pikkon lost to IT, but wasn't in the manga....

Obv the Yadrat is better at it, but he is also no goku. And Frieza called it child's play.

Gohan keeps getting wrecked. I'm waiting for some redemption dang.
I mean, retreating from "Punch Bolla" guy?

 

[Fulminator]

I mean roshi could be considered evil, he's been pretty close to a sex offender since db

 

[HeroR]

Zamasu is dead. There's literally nothing to support or deny what I said in this case. There's only a few examples of villains in the series not going good after their arc and they're all dead.

Most of the main villain in the series stay evil. The exceptions are Piccolo Jr and Vegeta. Out of all the forms of Buu, only one turned good. The other was erased and the other had to be reborn into a new person to be good. The rest of the cast wasn't even really evil. Just jackasses.

Gohan is the only person I can think of who has fought against IT and not found a way to counter it to a degree. And his dad has had the technique for literally more than half Gohan's life.

Spoiler

Pikkon lost to IT, but wasn't in the manga....

Obv the Yadrat is better at it, but he is also no goku. And Frieza called it child's play.

Gohan keeps getting wrecked. I'm waiting for some redemption dang.
I mean, retreating from "Punch Bolla" guy?

Not really. He just teleport spam, which we have seen Goku do in the Battle of Gods movie against Beerus and Copy-Vegeta. Both who didn't counter it.

 

[Fulminator]

Gohan is the only person I can think of who has fought against IT and not found a way to counter it to a degree. And his dad has had the technique for literally more than half Gohan's life.

Spoiler

Pikkon lost to IT, but wasn't in the manga....

Obv the Yadrat is better at it, but he is also no goku. And Frieza called it child's play.

Gohan keeps getting wrecked. I'm waiting for some redemption dang.
I mean, retreating from "Punch Bolla" guy?

Don't sleep on the Bolla Bot, he'll fuck you up

 

[Kevinroc]

I mean roshi could be considered evil, he's been pretty closet to a sex offender since db

Manga and anime have a real issue with how they treat these old pervert characters. I think Happosai from Ranma is the only one who is actually called out as evil.

 

[B-Dubs]

Most of the main villain in the series stay evil. The exceptions are Piccolo Jr and Vegeta. Out of all the forms of Buu, only one turned good. The other was erased and the other had to be reborn into a new person to be good. The rest of the cast wasn't even really evil. Just jackasses.

Most of the main cast were antagonists at some point, now they're allies of the protagonist. The list of characters this doesn't apply to are all dead.

You're not really saying anything that disproves my point. The history of the series leads us to believe that a grudge won't be held because it's never held unless the antagonist dies and has no ability to redeem themselves. That's the kind of story this is.

 

[caliph95]

Reminder that this silly little robot is probably stronger than any of Gero's androids

17 disagrees

 

[Mory Dunz]

Not really. He just teleport spam, which we have seen Goku do in the Battle of Gods movie against Beerus and Copy-Vegeta. Both who didn't counter it.

I took Roshi's comments as implying he was better. Plus there were all shocked. And he's actually from the planet. But either way.

In the beerus fight are you talking about before he fired the kamehameha?
....I blocked the copy vegeta fight from my memory so I don't even have a frame of reference.

 

[Kagari]

Kaioken + genki dama: https://twitter.com/DBZcom/status/912176460634365954

 

[Mory Dunz]

Kaioken + genki dama: https://twitter.com/DBZcom/status/912176460634365954

budokai 2/3 models will never die

 

[FF Seraphim]

True, but him getting his butt beat by an IT user when his father has the exact same technique and has been using it for years is kind of bad. Bonus points that Goku used it against Gohan twice in Episode 90 and he still has no counter for it.

What was hilarious is the fact Gohan even said "oh this guy can use IT better not let my guard down", then as soon as the guy uses IT he lets his guard down.

 

[HeroR]

Most of the main cast were antagonists at some point, now they're allies of the protagonist. The list of characters this doesn't apply to are all dead.

You're not really saying anything that disproves my point. The history of the series leads us to believe that a grudge won't be held because it's never held unless the antagonist dies and has no ability to redeem themselves. That's the kind of story this is.

Again, most of them were just jerks and the gods are even bigger assholes. They have no reason to like U7. Even Champa who owes Beerus for given him an Earth is still an asshole to U7 and tries to get them erased.

You know, Champa. He's still antagonist towards U7.

What was hilarious is the fact Gohan even said "oh this guy can use IT better not let my guard down", then as soon as the guy uses IT he lets his guard down.

He didn't let down his guard. He got his blindspots attacked.

I took Roshi's comments as implying he was better. Plus there were all shocked. And he's actually from the planet. But either way.

In the beerus fight are you talking about before he fired the kamehameha?
....I blocked the copy vegeta fight from my memory so I don't even have a frame of reference.

Honestly question, how many times has Roshi seen Goku used IT or teleport spam. Roshi almost ever seen Goku used it to travel, not battle.

He did IT spam twice in Battle of Gods movie. First in the cave and then in space.

 

[The Silver]

So surely Gohan would have gone ultimate at the last split second against Jimmy when he had him on the ropes if Frieza didn't come, cause it really looked like Gohan was about to let himself get wrecked.

 

[FF Seraphim]

He didn't let down his guard. He got his blindspots attacked.

He wouldn't be trashed around if he was actually giving his all.

 

[Icyflamez96]

I hope the theme song plays at some point during the special.

 

[Mory Dunz]

So surely Gohan would have gone ultimate at the last split second against Jimmy when he had him on the ropes if Frieza didn't come, cause it really looked like Gohan was about to let himself get wrecked.

he straight up lost the fight for me. No ifs ands or buts.

He was losing and didn't get a hit in.
Fight gets interrupted so he has time to gather himself, think of a plan, maybe go ultimate or something crazy like that.
Fight resumes and he keeps getting worked. Doesn't get a hit in and looks tired. He is about to finished if not for freiza.

I was waiting for that Aha moment that didn't come

 

[The Silver]

I hope the theme song plays at some point during the special.

When Jiren finally defeats the great villain Goku.

 

[B-Dubs]

Again, most of them were just jerks and the gods are even bigger assholes. They have no reason to like U7. Even Champa who owes Beerus for given him an Earth is still an asshole to U7 and tries to get them erased.

You know, Champa. He's still antagonist towards U7.

He's tsundere towards Beerus, and vice versa, let's be real. He's not actively trying to destroy them, if he was he'd have gone to U-7 and tried to nuked them from existence while Beerus napped.

Just because he's an asshole to them doesn't mean he's an antagonist.

 

[HeroR]

He wouldn't be trashed around if he was actually giving his all.

But that isn't dropping your guard.

He's tsundere towards Beerus, and vice versa, let's be real. He's not actively trying to destroy them, if he was he'd have gone to U-7 and tried to nuked them from existence while Beerus napped.

Just because he's an asshole to them doesn't mean he's an antagonist.

He's more than a tsundere since he actively tries and wants Beerus to be erased. Nothing in Champa's attitude shows that he secretly cares. He can't destroy U7 because Zen'o would most like erased him for it or Vados would stop him.

Champa is an antagonist:

a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

Goku has only used a spirit bomb against a person 3 times and it's only worked once.

It's basically his Mafuba.

Twice.

Majin Buu and Omega Shenron.

 

[Icyflamez96]

When Jiren finally defeats the great villain Goku.

I'm down

 

[foxuzamaki]

When has the IT ever been countered? I dont remember there ever being a scenario where IT was countered in the series, it usually does its job once goku gets it off, in the metal cooler movie he kinda learned IT from the gette star and him and goku had a IT fight that makes it kinda OP, but thats the closest ive seen it get countered, frieza just kinda knows how to do it in his base form.

 

[SparksterMeta0]

I never thought Frieza would pull a stunt like that until he showed Frost how to do that "100%" Form.

Bravo, you magnificent bastard.

 

[Icyflamez96]

git hype

Can't wait to see Jiren fight the villain.

 

[Mory Dunz]

When has the IT ever been countered? I dont remember there ever being a scenario where IT was countered in the series, it usually does its job once goku gets it off, in the metal cooler movie he kinda learned IT from the gette star and him and goku had a IT fight that makes it kinda OP, but thats the closest ive seen it get countered, frieza just kinda knows how to do it in his base form.

Cell was just like I'm pretty fast too. The Kamehameha + IT got him though. But he figured out how to fight against IT by itself, just by increasing his overall speed.

and i thought he used it vs kid buu but maybe not...

 

[TheVampire]

Didn't Beerus tank a Kamehameha + IT in the movie?

 

[Slaythe]

Didn't Beerus tank a Kamehameha + IT in the movie?

But he was unable to catch Goku when he was using IT to make up for the loss of speed.

 

[Xanathus]

It's annoying how the anime portrays every GoD as evil or an asshole, in the manga they at least have a few GoDs who seem to be genuinely good. Manga has way more depth to the characters and story compared to the anime.

 

[Icyflamez96]

It's annoying how the anime portrays every GoD as evil or an asshole, in the manga they at least have a few GoDs who seem to be genuinely good. Manga has way more depth to the characters and story compared to the anime.

Now run.