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[DigitalOp]

Jiggly boob defense force all up in this thread!

Personally, from a gameplay perspective, this looks like a game I'd really enjoy, but the gratuitous sexualization doesn't float my boat, in fact it puts me off. It's definitely a game I'd be embarrassed to play in front of my wife, just like she'd be embarrassed if I sat down with her while she was watching a Zac Effron movie.

it's catering to a male audience, and that's fine, but you can't discount that, no matter how much you want to talk about the exaggerated deceptions of men, or it being part of the 'art style'.
If you like the art style, and have no issue with the overt sexualization of the female characters that's fine, but to act like it legitimately can't be a detractor for other people is just being disingenuous.

I completely understand this POV, I don't think anybody is going against that.

But the funny thing is that people are forgetting you don't have to play as the Sorceress or the Amazon...

Im sure they won't even appear on screen unless you play as them...

Besides multiplayer

 

[phanboy4]

OMG I'M SO THREATENED BY HIS HUNKISH SEXUALITY QUICK HALVE ALL THE REVIEW SCOREZ

Go watch that Jimqusition about sexualized males in games.

 

[perorist]

Vita has some framerate issues and easy touch controls. PS3 has better framerate but the right stick isn't as fast/effective as touch.

Vita version for the touch function or the PS3 version for being able to see better when things get hectic. Take your pick.

Thanks, framerate is a big one for me so I guess I'm going PS3 :/

 

[Abriael]

i do think that many people think that anyone can review.
i personally cant, as i can't as of yet go beyond my personal views, but it's clearly a skill a want to develop

I think anyone can review, as long as they're willing to assign their personal taste the right weight, which isn't higher than the actual quality of the game.

 

[GuardianE]

Well, we can separate this from the context of the Polygon review, but I'm still going to disagree with you for the same reasons (regarding the "soapbox" portion, at least).

If you can make the case for why reviews aren't opinions, I'm all ears.

The reason why reviews shouldn't be merely opinion pieces is because it's possible for a person to evaluate a product from a variety of angles and perspectives. We're not so stubborn in that we can only look at an object one way (or at least, not everyone is). Reviews shouldn't read out of an Op/Ed piece. They should be the real meat of a video game publication. Having multiple reviewers evaluate a game at the same time, while sharing, alleviates some of the stress of being objective and adds to the overall objectivity of a review (something that rarely happens nowadays, but used to happen all the time in game magazines).

A reviewer should have the ability to objectively see value in something that may not inherently click with them. I think that's the central requirement of a reviewer. If they can't do this, they're in the wrong profession. They'll still be influenced by their own experiences and preferences, but they can still understand why their readership might appreciate or dislike other aspects of it. I hate Skyrim, but I can still write a review about all of the positive things that it accomplishes... and while I fully recognize that the game isn't for me, I also recognize that the majority of my "readership" values things in this game differently.

This is how judges and juries are never wrong, good job proving your point though it's a terrible point of comparison given basing a verdict on evidence perceived as objective is an utterly different process to subjectively critiquing and giving their opinion a product.

Please point out to me a review you don't consider to be pointless, I'd love to be enlightened by the "limited objectivity" displayed in a persons opinion piece.

Yes, basing a verdict on evidence is an objective process, but I don't agree that it's that incomparable to a review. It's a bit of hyperbole, but I don't think that it weakens my point. When you write a review, you are judging something. The gravity and standards of the situation are different, but the basic premise remains true. Most reviews nowadays read like lavish advertisements, and I'm not surprised that it's difficult to find a review with limited objectivity. Like I said, there was a reviewer who openly admitted that they wrote their review as if trying to sell a game to a friend because they thought it was good. That's absurd.

I can't provide examples because I'm on a work computer, and most gaming sites are blocked, but I'd say that there were plenty of EGM reviews from long ago that held limited objectivity because the raw score aggregate was determined by 4 reviewers at the same time, who discussed the merits.

 

[IHaveCandy]

No, there wasn't. They did that because they're male, and they weren't thinking about anybody else but males with similar tastes.



Which is fine. But then there should be no surprise or outrage when people from outside the clubhouse look at it and go, "uh, yeah, no thanks."

That's an assumption on your part. I'd rather take the creator's word. If you want to be cynical, then there isn't much more to say.

 

[Delusibeta]

What's the high and low on how long this game takes to complete?

I've heard anything between 10 to 20 hours for a run through.

 

[GoddyofAus]

perhaps the word you are looking for is *snicker* misandry?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to insinuate, except maybe that you hate men but I doubt it.

Should I ask you to enlighten me or should I just "fuck off"?

 

[Vibri]

GUYZ WAIT UP NO WAY I COULD GET THAT RIPPED MASS EFFECT SHOULD'VE BEEN RATED WAY LOWER

 

[DR2K]

We're not banning a website just because they posted a review you disagree with about a game you haven't played yet.

From what I'm reading it's less about what they played and more the art style. The writer spends about a third of the review discussing the women and their portrayals. Doesn't even mention the online multiplayer. It's a very questionable review.

 

[brandonh83]

Wait people are seriously comparing this to muscular male characters and saying there's no difference?

 

[Abriael]

I've heard anything between 10 to 20 hours for a run through.

It's leaning more toweards 20 if you do all the quests. Actually, it can go a bit higher than that. It took me 23 hours to clear it once.

 

[njean777]

Polygon is just laughable, gonna dock a game over social issues and not actually judge the game for what it is, fuck off with that garbage.

 

[darkblade77]

Which is fine. But then there should be no surprise or outrage when people from outside the clubhouse look at it and go, "uh, yeah, no thanks."

Except the people on the outside are the ones building the clubhouse now. Out of straw.

 

[GoddyofAus]

Wait people are seriously comparing this to muscular male characters and saying there's no difference?

You're suggesting there is? I'm pretty sure it is totally normal for a woman to get aroused.

 

[JordanN]

I hope Vanillaware keeps making sexualized characters.

Women with big tits exist in real life so keep being offended when an artist does it.

Dragon's Crown still looks awesome though, I really want to play it.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Well, I assume it's actually VERY different for you with the same end-result. lol

Well yes I suppose that goes without saying.

That being said, I don't think its about not being able to appreciate the...well, "beauty" of the female form. Maybe because I don't have to actively deal with it, its less of a concern when it's stylized to such a degree.

 

[southerncross]

Everything can and will share their expertise on politics and morality, but good luck finding someone with any real expertise on belt-scrollers.

I love this post so much.

Too often these days game design analysis is neglected because of NGJ/politics/etc. stuff.

 

[zethren]

Now is that last sentence commenting on what you think Dragon's Crown is doing? Why couldn't the creators of Dragon's Crown not want to make the Sorceress seductive by design? There are women of all shapes and sizes in Dragon's Crown. It's not like they had some mandate that all breasts must be the size of bowling balls.

Absolutely this.

Dragon's Crown vs Dead or Alive. Which one is more guilty of objectification?

 

[GravityMan]

I want reviewers to clearly state their honest opinions of the game and score it accordingly. Nothing should be left off the table, unless it's against company policy. If the person hated the art style, then say so. If the person doesn't like the sexualized nature of some of the characters, then mention that too. Don't sugarcoat it. I may or may not agree with the review or the score...and that's fine. It's ridiculous to judge the quality of a review based on whether you agreed with it or not. Not everyone thinks the same way nor shares the same values. To me a review is bad when it gets facts wrong, or fails to cover important components of the game, or has 5th grade level grammar, or spends nearly the entire review pushing an agenda - political or otherwise. Danielle's Polygon review is none of those. I had a much bigger problem with some of Arthur Gies's past reviews.

I have no interest in Dragon's Crown because the game just looks boring to me judging from gameplay videos I've seen on Youtube. I'm not offended by the art style and I often quite like stylized art direction (loved Bayonetta's artstyle for example), but Dragon's Crown's character art does seem to be a bit over the top to the point where it may be unnecessarily distracting to some gamers, affecting their ability to stay properly focused on the fast-paced gameplay.

 

[deuce985]

I love Atlus games but I have a hard time getting over the ridiculous character models this game has. It's almost to the point where I don't want to play the game because they're so exaggerated.

 

[Instro]

Wait people are seriously comparing this to muscular male characters and saying there's no difference?

Why would it be any different assuming they are equal in the amount of clothing?

 

[Homu]

I love Atlus games but I have a hard time getting over the ridiculous character models this game has. It's almost to the point where I don't want to play the game because they're so exaggerated.

It's a Vanillaware game, Atlus is only publishing it.

 

[brandonh83]

You're suggesting there is? I'm pretty sure it is totally normal for a woman to get aroused.

So you think ripped males compares to a female characters with tits and hips so glorified that it's causing debate? I don't have a problem with sexy female characters with nice breasts or hips and asses, doesn't usually bother me, but I think there is a difference between that and what I'm seeing with some of the female characters in this game.

Why would it be any different assuming they are equal in the amount of clothing?

I'm not talking about the clothing or lack thereof, nor am I even talking about the sexualization. I'm talking about how stupid it looks.

 

[Vibri]

Go watch that Jimqusition about sexualized males in games.

Can't move, am cowering from sheer inadequacy from all the HAWT RIPPED GAME GUYS I've only just realised I never gave a shit about until the PC brigade alerted me to the fact.

 

[danthefan]

Wow, definitely was not expecting such decent reviews for this game. Will pick it up for Vita at some stage but just have too many games at the moment to get through.

 

[ironcreed]

GUYZ WAIT UP NO WAY I COULD GET THAT RIPPED MASS EFFECT SHOULD'VE BEEN RATED WAY LOWER

The manliness... just UGH. I can't handle it. I'm offended that those are not my abs. Should have had points deducted!

 

[Coxy]

Now is that last sentence commenting on what you think Dragon's Crown is doing? Why couldn't the creators of Dragon's Crown not want to make the Sorceress seductive by design? There are women of all shapes and sizes in Dragon's Crown. It's not like they had some mandate that all breasts must be the size of bowling balls.

But apparantly muscular women are offensive too

It's disturbing that these people think the way to improve womens depiction in games is to only depict them as completely perfectly average

 

[George Claw M.D.]

Was planning on getting the PS3 PSN version regardless, but glad to see it may be the best-playing Vanillaware game to date (which isn't saying much). At least regarding their action games. I enjoyed Grim Grimoire but that was a totally different type of game.

 

[Vire]

I want reviewers to clearly state their honest opinions of the game and score it accordingly. Nothing should be left off the table, unless it's against company policy. If the person hated the art style, then say so. If the person doesn't like the sexualized nature of some of the characters, then mention that too. Don't sugarcoat it. I may or may not agree with the review or the score...and that's fine. It's ridiculous to judge the quality of a review based on whether you agreed with it or not. Not everyone thinks the same way nor shares the same values. To me a review is bad when it gets facts wrong, or fails to cover important components of the game, or has 5th grade level grammar, or spends nearly the entire review pushing an agenda - political or otherwise. Danielle's Polygon review is none of those.

I have no interest in Dragon's Crown because the game just looks boring to me judging from gameplay videos I've seen on Youtube. I'm not offended by the art style and I often quite like stylized art direction (loved Bayonetta's artstyle for example), but Dragon's Crown's character art does seem to be a bit over the top to the point where it may be unnecessarily distracting to some gamers, affecting their ability to stay properly focused on the fast-paced gameplay.

Nice post, but don't worry you'll be attacked soon enough.

Dragon Crown is objectively good.

 

[GotchaForce]

I'm looking forward to the game but the Amazon and Sorceress characters give me pause to recommend it to female friends. Plus, any that come over on a game night I might feel uncomfortable choosing to play it with them around.

 

[deuce985]

It's a Vanillaware game, Atlus is only publishing it.

Ah, ok. Still, I think I'd be more interested in the game if the models weren't so exaggerated with the boobs and all. Probably a stupid reason not to try a game but it's hard to ignore for me.

Nice to see it's getting good reviews though. Outside what I mentioned above, I thought it looked interesting. I'll wait to see more impressions from here.

 

[Abriael]

or spends nearly the entire review pushing an agenda - political or otherwise. Danielle's Polygon review is none of those..

Actually her review is very near to that, even more so in the video review.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Another one of these threads.

The only things that seemed weird to me were the right stick to loot/open stuff and having to get to a certain point before you can play online but apparently there's a story reason for that.

Still, I think it would have been nice to be able to play start to finish online with someone.

I'm looking forward to the game but the Amazon and Sorceress characters give me pause to recommend it to female friends. Plus, any that come over on a game night I might feel uncomfortable choosing to play it with them around.

I kind of feel the same way in that I compare it to things like religion and politics. Bring that kind of thing up around people you don't know well and you might have to deal with someone's ugly side.

 

[RoKKeR]

Will probably pick this up on Vita, looks great.

 

[homulilly]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to insinuate, except maybe that you hate men but I doubt it.

Should I ask you to enlighten me or should I just "fuck off"?

You're complaining that "feminists" are being sexist against men which is utterly laughable.

 

[njean777]

Why would it be any different assuming they are equal in the amount of clothing?

No cause men cannot be sexualized at all, it is not the same. /eye roll

 

[mjc]

Will probably pick this up on Vita, looks great.

Me too. I can deal with the slowdown and it'll look awesome on the OLED. I might get it for PS3 if my girlfriend wants to play too.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

GUYZ WAIT UP NO WAY I COULD GET THAT RIPPED MASS EFFECT SHOULD'VE BEEN RATED WAY LOWER

Once again, you illustrate you have no idea what an oversexualized male character in a game is lol

 

[Instro]

So you think ripped males compares to a female characters with tits and hips so glorified that it's causing debate? I don't have a problem with sexy female characters with nice breasts or hips and asses, doesn't usually bother me, but I think there is a difference between that and what I'm seeing with some of the female characters in this game.

What makes the female features more glorified than the male features in this game?

 

[Deified Data]

I love Atlus games but I have a hard time getting over the ridiculous character models this game has. It's almost to the point where I don't want to play the game because they're so exaggerated.

It's not developed by Atlus, they're just publishing it.

 

[Drake]

I really want to get this, but I don't know if I can justify spending $50 on it. I may wait until it goes down in price.

 

[QisTopTier]

You're complaining that "feminists" are being sexist against men which is utterly laughable.

Everyone is a little "sexist" it's part of life. Gender roles, things people like about other peoples bodies and all that shit.

The important part is not taking it too far, which isn't hard.

 

[njean777]

You're complaining that "feminists" are being sexist against men which is utterly laughable.

Some feminists are, not any in gaming that I have seen, but in other areas some most definitely are.

 

[Adam Blue]

Polygon staffers are taking the Atlus PR dude's reply to the review to heart, but really he's just doing a good job of changing the tone of the conversation.

Props to that tactic.

 

[IHaveCandy]

This is the attitude I get from some people.

Acceptable male body types
Anorexic
Slim
Fat
Morbidly obese
Muscular
Hypertrophied beyond belief
Showing lots of skin
Sexy
Ridiculously attractive
Mildly attractive
Ugly
Grotesquely hideous


Acceptable female body types
Slim
Fat
Muscular
Mildly Attractive
Ugly



Going into any extreme in either way is just UNACCEPTABLE for female characters apparently. Otherwise you're somehow objectifying them.

 

[meltingparappa]

Go watch that Jimqusition about sexualized males in games.

PhD Sociologist Jim misses a point about how archetypes like Kratos reinforce belief that males have to be violent and destructive when threatened.

Also I'm glad queer people don't exist, so that media critics can talk in gender absolutes, blissfully using the "check your privilege" method of ending a debate.

 

[Homu]

I wonder what would have happened if she actually liked the game and was capable of looking past things that were out of her comfort zone. Would she still have gotten to review the game? Or would Gies have just picked whoever agreed with him or reviewed it himself to push his PC agenda?

 

[Shosai]

No. I described it's style. Quality and style are entirely different factors.

Style is one of the many qualities that any game possesses.

They marked it with an objectively low score, which undervalues its objectives qualities by a lot, misleading readers in believing that it's worse than it actually is.

That review can easily be summarized with "The game is very good, but I'll tell you it isn't, because tits".

There's a difference between approaching a game with zero preconceptions and being able to put those preconceptions aside as much as possible in order to appreciate a game's objective qualities.

I don't consider a 6/10 to be "low". The fact that I (and many other people) don't see it as "low" already disqualifies it from being described as "objectively low". The only objective parts of a review are a description of the product's contents, and the reviewer's personal experience.

You can never put all of your preconceptions aside when reviewing a game. Your past experiences always influence your current interpretations.

Are you going to approach every game like it's the first one you ever played, and then dock points for not explaining every button press thoroughly enough? Of course not, you're going to approach with some degree of preconceptions about how controllers should work and what the game should do, and whether it compares favorably to past game's you played. Because your readers share those preconceptions.

 

[greendomo's ghost]

Why would it be any different assuming they are equal in the amount of clothing?

Because men on the whole tend to get stimulated visually more than women? Because a muscular man depicts the male fantasy for being powerful and strong, and a big breasted, curvy, skimpily-dressed woman represents the male fantasy of what he wants in a woman.

It's why teenage boys tend to have posters of girls on their walls in bikinis, fulfilling the physical desire. Girls tend to have posters of teenage singers or 'heart-throbs', people who fulfill a more emotional fantasy.