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[Zeliard]

It's tough, because a lot of devs making public statements about consoles or pc tech these days definitely have agendas, and it can be hard to separate hype from informed, expert opinion. It was easy to lump someone like Carmack or Newell in with that side when they made harsh statements about the PS3 or multicore processors or whatever, especially when the massive levels of hype early in this console cycle had almost everyone entranced. With a few more years now, and some perspective along with it, I think it's plain to see that they were being totally honest, but it was a lot harder to discern back then.

I think the good majority of that comes and came from first-party devs, like when Naughty Dog says that Uncharted uses only 30% of the PS3's power, or whatnot.

 

[GoutPatrol]

The ban is well deserved, but I think we could have done without this thread.

No, we could always use more entertainment.

 

[Y2Kev]

Besada's posts in this thread are great. Everyone go read them again mmkay

edit: oh and jaffe rox :lol

 

[Andvary]

He needed to be banned, this was for his own good.

 

[TDG]

I felt sorry for Dyack for a little while, but I've got to say, he had this coming.

If I had posted any of the stuff about NeoGAF that he's been saying in his two-year-long tirade against this forum, I would've been banned in a second. To be honest, this is long overdue. You don't get to talk shit about the forum non-stop, then hide in The Official Too Human Thread of No Actual Discussion About the Quality of the Game Allowed and post happily. Sorry, if he hates NeoGAF so much, he shouldn't post here.

His behavior has been really unprofessional, this is a gaming forum for christ's sakes. To be honest, the perma-ban might be the best thing to ever happen to him. Maybe he'll re-evaluate his ideas and adjust this ego.

This whole thing just got more... unfortunate as it continued. I'm just glad it's over now.

 

[AstroLad]

Personal feelings aside, ED is still the best use of Cthulhu mythos this decade.

arkham horror

 

[nestea]

I feel bad for Denis.

He continues to talk about how NeoGAF is a terrible forum, but what has he done to contribute towards making NeoGAF a better forum? The only reason he seems to come back to the forums anymore is to talk about his game or further his "internet social experiment". How is any of this contributing to making NeoGAF a better forum?

If Denis is really concerned about making a change, maybe he should lead by example.

 

[Az]

I don't remember the first attacks on DD but I believe he deserved what happened today. Basically, he is an older man, a public figure, a CEO etc. but a 23 year old nerd(sorry Tyler, just GAF stereotyping) is able to get him furious and mad?

Come on NeoGAF didn't ruin Too Human, Dyack did.

 

[tetrisgrammaton]

this is the equivalent to a virtual tar and feathering

 

[XenoId]

i dont check the forum for one day and all hell breaks loose :lol
kinda do feel bad for SK though after all their hard work.

PS.

davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
(Today, 07:30 PM)

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Well thats that. Stroodle anyone!?!??!?

 

[[Nintex]]

I feel bad for Denis.

He continues to talk about how NeoGAF is a terrible forum, but what has he done to contribute towards making NeoGAF a better forum? The only reason he seems to come back to the forums anymore is to talk about his game or further his "internet social experiment". How is any of this contributing to making NeoGAF a better forum?

If Denis is really concerned about making a change, maybe he should lead by example.

Things aren't that complicated, Dyack wanted to use GAF as a PR tool and marketing, just like it has been for other games in the past. The difference is that he forced people to like Too Human and that shit backfired. Secondly Denis Dyack wasn't "HALOZONE399" on a anonymous internet forum, instead he was Denis Dyack CEO of Silicon Knights and he made an ass of himself.

 

[AnthonyP]

I love this forum. I love Silicon Knights.

On that note. I find this whole forum soap opera to be ridiculous and a waste of peoples boring lives =P

Play games! F women! Discuss important things! Dyack and Neogaf. Move on!

This....This to the Nth degree.

 

[Enron]

Has this been posted yet? TooHuman.net's thread on the fiasco. It's pretty goddamn hilarious.

http://toohuman.net/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&func=view&id=68469&catid=2#68469









:lol

oh god, lol.

Dyack can say what he wants. NeoGaf mods are the ones what made the Microsoft employee retire due to them tracking his ip and posting the information. Yea thats a forum i want to say is great. On 1up podcast he said what needed to be said. And he was right on the money, and the fact people are saying he was out of line, but no one wants to say NeoGAF was. If people want to read a forum that is immature they can but i doubt anyone on that forum can talk as smart and understanding of society as he can.

Like he said, sites need to moderate. NeoGAF does none.

 

[EternityInBlack]

See, I never really paid attention to this NeoGAF fiasco with DD until he made too big of a deal with it on the 1Up Yours podcast... not because he was trying to make a point, but because he decided to crap on anyone who could've remotely had any interest in the game on these forums.

But I do understand why the mods had to ban him. It's unfortunate that it had to be in these circumstances (although in hindsight I don't think there was any better way to ban him considering his actions around these parts).

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

arkham horror

Will look into it. Thank you!

EDIT

What I also find funny is that on the 1UP Show, several of the hosts were gushing over the game.

So why didn't they let one of those guys review it?

 

[timetokill]

I've been following this thread all day... just too awesome. :lol
Great thread, great posts, great laughs. Definitely gonna be a memorable one.

 

[MrDaravon]

:lol at the SK forum

Boys will be boys.
Everything GAF says about Dyack is right.
Everything Dyack says about GAF is right.
Everything Dyack says about Too Human is wrong.
An average review score in the upper-60s isn't so bad.
Too Human will still move a decent number of sales in August.
Life will go on.

Pretty much. I do think the game got somewhat unfairly hated and trolled on with no repercussions for too long which is something that should be addressed as far as the forum and moderation goes. But as far as everything else Denis is insane, and he probably should have been banned after the for/against thread. He's like an abused spouse who keeps coming back because he can't help himself, and the family finally had to do an intervention.

Urk, you better still play your co-op game with Denis now, I'm expecting a report.

 

[FightyF]

Did you really ban him, Evilore?

You don't have to really explain yourself to me, but allow me to explain why I would disagree (*slurp slurp* jokes aside).

The way I interpreted his "worst forum" remarks, was that it was the worst in terms of unmoderated and unfair criticism towards Too Human. There was some legit criticism, but the TH threads were known for becoming trollfests and the people who were looking forward to the game couldn't even post in there. And I was a person who wasn't even looking forward to it...I just found out while talking to other GAF gamers when playing online.

In terms of trolling TH, GAF was the "worst forum" it seems. I don't think that phrase was meant to be applied over the whole forum at all.

Give me a break, the guy goes all around in the press slandering this forum, and no one from this forum has been given any chance to speak up for it.

Wait, how is this different than mods here slandering the game (without playing it of course)?

It's pretty obvious that both sides here over-reacted to unfair criticisms.

 

[TDG]

He's like an abused spouse who keeps coming back because he can't help himself, and the family finally had to do an intervention.

Pretty much.

 

[Digital-Hero]

Now now people. We wouldn't want Dyack to respond would we? :lol

 

[DuckRacer]

Did you really ban him, Evilore?

You don't have to really explain yourself to me, but allow me to explain why I would disagree (*slurp slurp* jokes aside).

The way I interpreted his "worst forum" remarks, was that it was the worst in terms of unmoderated and unfair criticism towards Too Human. There was some legit criticism, but the TH threads were known for becoming trollfests and the people who were looking forward to the game couldn't even post in there. And I was a person who wasn't even looking forward to it...I just found out while talking to other GAF gamers when playing online.

In terms of trolling TH, GAF was the "worst forum" it seems. I don't think that phrase was meant to be applied over the whole forum at all.

Even if you are correct, he should've been banned anyway with his "For or Against" stunt and the 1UP Yours podcast that followed.

 

[Ken Masters]

I feel like Dyack is just laughing at all this

 

[helava]

One of the interesting things about listening to Dyack on the 1up Show that's been talked about here is that yeah, it seems like he's reading a lot of interesting books, and he's taking a lot of interesting ideas and then completely bolloxing it all up. If the whole "Stand Up and Be Counted" nonsense was a result of the ideas he claims it is, his implementation of the core idea is *TERRIBLE*.

Seems consistent.
seppo

 

[newsguy]

I feel like Dyack is just laughing at all this

He is, then he sees the reviews and cries.

 

[tahrikmili]

I feel like Dyack is just laughing at all this

I feel any humour in this would be lost on him. And I bet he has more serious problems to attend to (nervous shareholders, anyone?).

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Obviously the game isn't actually out yet (at least not here) and from the demo, I gotta say, my doubts about the game are spot on.

But wasn't the basis for this whole thing universal panning? I mean, I looked at the review thread EviLore linked to and the majority of those reviews were above average to good. So I'm confused. The thread title even says "scores less than Haze" and NOWHERE did it score less than Haze.

I think this whole thing is funny, but shouldn't GAF actually be RIGHT before doing this?

or maybe I misread the threads, but I'm pretty sure I didn't.

 

[Baha]

Obviously the game isn't actually out yet (at least not here) and from the demo, I gotta say, my doubts about the game are spot on.

But wasn't the basis for this whole thing universal panning? I mean, I looked at the review thread EviLore linked to and the majority of those reviews were above average to good. So I'm confused. The thread title even says "scores less than Haze" and NOWHERE did it score less than Haze.

I think this whole thing is funny, but shouldn't GAF actually be RIGHT before doing this?

or maybe I misread the threads, but I'm pretty sure I didn't.

I think you should re-read the OP a bit more clearly. There was another important link in the OP.

 

[Fenderputty]

Has this been posted yet? TooHuman.net's thread on the fiasco. It's pretty goddamn hilarious.

http://toohuman.net/index.php?option...&catid=2#68469

Thank you for making this thread even better than it previously was. :lol

 

[sevanig]

Dont feel bad for the guy, at least he's got Microsoft's money...
He's probably in the Bahamas now
on his laptop laying on a deck chair
next to Julian Eggebrecht

Drinking his 5th Bahama Mama

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

I think you should re-read the OP a bit more clearly. There was another important link in the OP.

The non-NeoGAF ones are blocked for me, I'm at work.

Please inform.

 

[Majmun]

Dont feel bad for the guy, at least he's got Microsoft's money...
He's probably in the Bahamas now
on his laptop laying on a deck chair
next to Julian Eggebrecht

Crying.

I'd feel pretty terrbile if my life project would get slapped by the critics.

 

[Amir0x]

(*slurp slurp*).

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

"I feel any humour in this would be lost on him. And I bet he has more serious problems to attend to (nervous shareholders, anyone?)."


Nervous shareholders from a neogaf banning?

 

[∀ Narayan]

ITT: Immaturity at its finest.

 

[TTG]

I'll admit, I was one of the first people to question why (and please don't take offense to this 1up guys) someone like Shawn Elliot wasn't on the podcast when Dyack came on to wax philosophical.

And then I thought about it a bit more. No disrespect to Dyack (honest!) intended, but that likely would have just devolved into something terribly embarrassing for him. I'm not saying the other guys weren't capable of tearing down his hypotheses, rather, I'm suggesting the more appropriate move was probably not to do so in the first instance.

1up doesn't want to burn any bridges. I'm guessing when it came time to review Too Human, the game disk was tossed around from person to person like a game of hot potato.

 

[Zoe]

Wait, how is this different than mods here slandering the game (without playing it of course)?

EvilLore (and the mods, by extension) own this place.

 

[Baha]

The non-NeoGAF ones are blocked for me, I'm at work.

Please inform.

In an interview posted today with videogaming247:

VG247: I need to ask you about the post you made on NeoGAF. Why did you feel the need to do what you did?

Denis Dyack: As a society we generally tend to not understand technology, and the whole idea of reciprocity and the effects of technology and how it’s really changing the mainstream. So, a lot of people would say, ‘Don’t post on a forum. Forums don’t have any affect.’ That post on the forum got picked up by almost every single major press site, and it did influence the press. I knew a demo was coming up and I knew all this was going to happen, and what I wanted to do was make an example of [the fact that] people need to understand the affect forums are having because there is an effect, it’s not a null effect. And if there is going to be an affect – I’m not saying we should change the world, or stop forum posts or anything like that – but people really need to understand the nature of what’s being said there, and by and large, most of the forums are completely uninformed, completely wrong, they’re making judgement calls with little or no information based completely on hyperbole, and I just wanted to hold that up for what it was. That was really it. A lot of people wouldn’t have done it, but that’s not my nature. If I see something that’s going wrong… It’s just, as our culture is trying to adapt to different technologies, it’s really important we understand what they do. As an example, a lot of people think that technology increases communication: that’s actually not true. The reason people think that it increases how we communicate is [because] it allows us to communicate in more forms that what was previously allowed – and I said this on the 1UP podcast – we can send messages via forums posts and video conferencing, but the lack of reciprocity, the fact that you and I can sit here face to face, you can see the emotions, you can see how genuine or not genuine I’m being, all these type of things, it’s all lost on the forums. But if we communicate in this way we have to understand that there’s this loss of reciprocity, and if the press and general gamers are going to read these things they’re going to have to take them for what they are, and really, you know, their value is very questionable. I just wanted to say that.

Why did you pick NeoGAF specifically? It wasn’t just NeoGAF that was picking on Too Human…

DD: NeoGAF is considered to be the worst, and I would say is probably the worst forum. And so, you might as well pick the worst one. Why not? So, that was the idea of that. Forums in general… The US military has really stopped using text because it resulted in too many instances of insubordination, so forums in general are just negative. There are some positive ones, but in general they’re negative, and people need to understand that, because there’s a very vocal minority that is generally negative and you’ve just got to let that stuff go. That was the reason why. Beyond that I don’t know that it even matters. I’m really done with that. I really wanted to make a point and move on. I know it certainly generated a lot of focus – more than I expected, actually; it got picked up on every news site within an hour – but that really shows the effects of these technologies on the mainstream media, and we have to think about those things and if it’s affecting things we can’t just brush it under the carpet and say it has no effect. It’s having some effect. It’s having some effect and I just want people to think about it.

That about sums it up.

 

[Witchfinder General]

Great job, EviLore; every time this forum has a chance of becoming a valid mouthpiece of critical analysis and a true forum of exchange between those who make the games and those who play them you manage again to piss it away with such petty ramblings.

Dennis broke the cardinal rule; you don't respond to criticism. But this came not from a PR representative of the company, or one of the bean counters, this came from the prime architect of the game itself. As unprofessional as that may seem, it's perfectly understandable for one to protect something they've been nurturing for so many years.

This sets a bad precedent; if f developer or other member of the trade has to be careful not to upset the establishment then ultimately freedom of speech will be restricted and gaming as a whole will suffer. David Jaffe himself has posted in this thread stating that he limits himself to simple, friendly exchanges between forum members. Maybe he wants to address criticisms levelled against him or the gaming community and maybe he doesn't. It's a moot point now because he and many others are going to have to watch their proverbial tongues not to say so as not to suffer the same fate as Dennis.

Is that really a healthy forum?

This is also a slight to those who are supporters of Silicon Knights and their games and whom respect what Dennis and his team have created. Dennis has always taken the time to answer questions on his games. But now that he's 'broken the rules' we the fans have to suffer. Yes, yes, we could easily take our questions to another forum, but is that ultimately how we want things to work? People swallowing their support and moving elsewhere to escape derision and persecution?

I really hope it doesn't come to that, although we seem to be there.

EviLore, in your salvo at the start of this thread you use Dennis' favourite Nietzsch quote "he who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster" against him.

It seems you should take heed yourself.

 

[Shouta]

Woo!

 

[gbovo]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Bootaaay/Blah/huge_bow_rofl_crowd.gif[/IMG]

omfg!

 

[Barrett2]

Nervous shareholders from a neogaf banning?

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Typically shareholders don't like it when the one and only product your company releases in 5 years is a commercial and critical flop. They sort of... you know.. fire you for that kind of thing.

 

[FightyF]

Even if you are correct, he should've been banned anyway with his "For or Against" stunt and the 1UP Yours podcast that followed.

And same with the people calling the game "shit" without playing it.

I mean, in any other game thread they would have been banned.

I think David Jaffe hit the nail on the head, and much of what he said could be applied to GAF.

There was a mistake made in the Too Human threads...moderators were letting things slide, that normally wouldn't have. Things were carried too far to the point where people looking forward to the game would be drowned out by the amount of trolling.

All that said, my life experience shows that often times, failure is a great thing because it allows you to either learn from mistakes and recommit to your passions OR it allows you to realize that you are not really on the path you need to be on in the first place.

The moderation of the TH threads was exactly that, a total failure.

Time to learn from such mistakes.

EvilLore (and the mods, by extension) own this place.

Exactly. I think that's why he referred to it as the "worst forum" in regards to trolling the game, because it was mod sanctioned, whereas in other forums moderators kept the unjustified criticisms out of the discussion.

 

[Philia]

Um... I have a question? If a higher up developer with a game that was coming out in a few weeks or months even, then make a thread about it in a huge gaming forum that covers with other media went to make a BET about it... wouldn't you just close the thread from there? I mean really... didn't we learn that lesson with someone else here?

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

In an interview posted today with videogaming247:



That about sums it up.

Thanks a tonne for the effort there, but I'm going to be honest and expose some ignorance on my part, but I still don't see it.

And I can do the 3D Magic Eye pictures really easily, and yet, I don't see this.

I agree with Dennis on SOME points. We ARE overly negative here. Most good games that get panned to the shit, end up getting loved a year later.

I mean 'events' like these, aren't they part of what GAF is all about?

Wouldn't seeing Dyack ATTEMPT a response to this, only to be further ridiculed be more entertaining and satisfying?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

"I hope you are being sarcastic.

Typically shareholders don't like it when the one and only product your company releases in 5 years is a commercial and critical flop. They sort of... you know.. fire you for that kind of thing."


I hope you're not serious that a game that hasn't even come out yet is an utter failure in sales when you can't even buy it. Not to mention what I was responding to was him making it sound like shareholders are nervous now because of the banning and a banning on a forum is the source of their worry.

 

[kay]

This sets a bad precedent; if f developer or other member of the trade has to be careful not to upset the establishment then ultimately freedom of speech will be restricted and gaming as a whole will suffer. David Jaffe himself has posted in this thread stating that he limits himself to simple, friendly exchanges between forum members. Maybe he wants to address criticisms levelled against him or the gaming community and maybe he doesn't. It's a moot point now because he and many others are going to have to watch their proverbial tongues not to say so as not to suffer the same fate as Dennis.

Here's a simple way for a dev to not get banned and have a thread made about them: Don't act like a monkey over and over forcing blame upon everyone else because your game sucks.

 

[Beezy]

Sounds exaclty like what you guys have been doing to Evilore in this thread.

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Great job, EviLore; every time this forum has a chance of becoming a valid mouthpiece of critical analysis and a true forum of exchange between those who make the games and those who play them you manage again to piss it away with such petty ramblings.

Dennis broke the cardinal rule; you don't respond to criticism. But this came not from a PR representative of the company, or one of the bean counters, this came from the prime architect of the game itself. As unprofessional as that may seem, it's perfectly understandable for one to protect something they've been nurturing for so many years.

This sets a bad precedent; if f developer or other member of the trade has to be careful not to upset the establishment then ultimately freedom of speech will be restricted and gaming as a whole will suffer. David Jaffe himself has posted in this thread stating that he limits himself to simple, friendly exchanges between forum members. Maybe he wants to address criticisms levelled against him or the gaming community and maybe he doesn't. It's a moot point now because he and many others are going to have to watch their proverbial tongues not to say so as not to suffer the same fate as Dennis.

Is that really a healthy forum?

This is also a slight to those who are supporters of Silicon Knights and their games and whom respect what Dennis and his team have created. Dennis has always taken the time to answer questions on his games. But now that he's 'broken the rules' we the fans have to suffer. Yes, yes, we could easily take our questions to another forum, but is that ultimately how we want things to work? People swallowing their support and moving elsewhere to escape derision and persecution?

I really hope it doesn't come to that, although we seem to be there.

EviLore, in your salvo at the start of this thread you use Dennis' favourite Nietzsch quote "he who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster" against him.

It seems you should take heed yourself.

This is spot on in so many ways it's not funny.

 

[Kadey]

Sorry but you do not insult the biggest gaming forum out there and get away with it. :lol Dun dun dun!!!

Worst gaming forum? He clearly hasn't been to or seen many. GAF is one of the very few I can even stand to be on.