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[besada]

I know that every single person here would agree with me that calling the game "shit" without playing it is something that this forum should not and typically hasn't condoned.

I find calling a game you haven't played "shit" roughly akin to calling a game you haven't played "great". If your issue is that no one can know the final quality of the game, why aren't you complaining about the boosters as well? If we are incapable of drawing inferences from the marketing material released, wouldn't that work in both directions, and wouldn't that cause us to not have an opinion until the final game came out. To me, that sounds like we're reviewers (which should wait until they play a game to make any comments on it) which we aren't. We follow games for years, and opinions swing back and forth. I can think of any number of games that were liked, then panned, then liked again as the released media changed.

We have an entire thread on Too Human, where only good responses are allowed, being enforced by bannings. Those people haven't played any more of the game than the folks who think it sucks.

I'd like to point out here that a) I never personally called the game shit, b)personally insulted Denis for anything other than his behavior, and c)was excited for the game at one point until the released media convinced me that it looked like a mediocre game.

I agree that some of the behavior surrounding the game has been ugly and unpleasant, although that's true of both sides of the spat. Calling for the closing of a forum because they don't like your game is every bit as extreme as making fat jokes about a guy because you don't like his game.

No one on GAF forced Denis to show his game early, which is where this all started. It seems like Denis should be yelling at his publisher, because they forced him to show a game that wasn't ready to be shown, which gave people a bad impression of the game that was exacerbated by Denis complaining and blaming everyone except himself and his publisher -- the only two parties with any control over what's being shown. It was an attempt at marketing that blew up in their face, but no one here made them do it.

 

[Mamesj]

Now that we're deep into this and all self-reflective:

I don't get why neogaf has to be some bastion of kindness. All snobs of various media have been hypercritical douche bags over the years...like going back to antiquity. This is just how things work.

Go read a super pretentious pitchfork review or any board on ilx0r or critical book reviews or dadaist manifestos or correspondence between philosophers or movie reviews or etc. etc. etc. No matter how its dressed up, it's unbridled snobbery and its ugly, but it works.

Sometimes people invest millions and years into a project that fails hard, like Waterworld, and they become the butt of the joke for a while after that. thats just how it goes--they live and they learn or they fight it, deny it, and fail again. The best thing Dyack can do is look at critiques of the game, ignore the drama he created, and make Too Human Too (copyright, me) the best damn game he can make to shut us all up.


Above all though, there's no critiquing the criticizers. To borrow a saying from the armpit of the internet: it's like pissing in an ocean of piss. GAF won't change, we'll still have mega melt down threads, and time will go on...we're not the ones under the microscope.

 

[Shaheed79]

We got Grand Theft Auto worse than we ever got Too Human and that is suppose to be "GOAT!!". We don't play favorites.

 

[wsippel]

This has gone too far in my humble opinion. A lot of shit happened, sure, but banning Denis? That's bullshit. He probably wouldn't have posted here anymore, anyway, but the ban is an insult and just bad style. Would you have shut down NeoGAF if the game ended up being good? If not, you shouldn't have banned him. If he was banned for talking bad about GAF, he should have been banned immediately, not weeks later...

 

[Duke Togo]

I'm surprised some of you think Evilore should have just let that comment by Dyack slide, especially when it appears he has nothing to back it up with. If I'm going to drop 60 bucks on a new game, it sure as hell isn't going to be a mediocre one created by a man that slung shit at the very people who would be the first in line to support it if it turned out well.

 

[Tain]

I find calling a game you haven't played "shit" roughly akin to calling a game you haven't played "great". If your issue is that no one can know the final quality of the game, why aren't you complaining about the boosters as well?

I'll second this. There's absolutely no reason to allow stupid, empty posts that contain nothing but three words of praise and exclamation points while condemning someone calling a game "shit."

 

[Slayer-33]

Dyack was wrong by way he approached and dealt with the real criticism, that's all there is to it. He behaved like a CEO should NOT behave.


He got over defensive, he let his emotions (albeit illogical emotions) take over him.



He needs to learn a lesson and I'm sure he will learn it pretty soon when the rest of the media destroys his "masterpiece"


Mr.Dyack if you are reading, just step back and take a deep breath learn from your mistakes make a better game next time, all this talking would be worthless if you actually delivered on the promise. Set out to prove yourself right next time.


It's not as if all of gaf or anyone at gaf wanted you to fail, you let yourself fail sir. In all honesty learning experiences rule, one must learn how to get up after falling hard.

 

[sprocket]

biggest issues I have against too human.

- 4 player co-op would have made it a lot better.

- thumb stick attack has never and will never work well in my eyes.

 

[Grecco]

This has gone too far in my humble opinion. A lot of shit happened, sure, but banning Denis? That's bullshit. He probably wouldn't have posted here anymore, anyway, but the ban is an insult and just bad style. Would you have shut down NeoGAF if the game ended up being good? If not, you shouldn't have banned him.

Ive been banned before for "shitting on a thread". Dyack shat on the entire forum.

 

[gofreak]

This has gone too far in my humble opinion. A lot of shit happened, sure, but banning Denis? That's bullshit. He probably wouldn't have posted here anymore, anyway, but the ban is an insult and just bad style. Would you have shut down NeoGAF if the game ended up being good? If not, you shouldn't have banned him.

He's been bad-mouthing neo-gaf on the press circuit (and this didn't just start today), while simultaneously continuing to use the forum when it suited or benefitted him (i.e. in the 'protected' official thread).

That's some cheek.

He was facking asking for it.

 

[Barrett2]

This has gone too far in my humble opinion. A lot of shit happened, sure, but banning Denis? That's bullshit. He probably wouldn't have posted here anymore, anyway, but the ban is an insult and just bad style. Would you have shut down NeoGAF if the game ended up being good? If not, you shouldn't have banned him.

Dude, what? GAF is a private organization, Denis openly and unfairly slandered the organization in public on repeated occasions. Why is this not a bannable offense? And why would GAF shut down if TH had been good? Give me a break.

 

[BrokenSymmetry]

I don't get why neogaf has to be some bastion of kindness.

I would welcome some more kindness on these forums, and especially towards those people that actually produce the things we love.

 

[ronito]

I would welcome some more kindness on these forums, and especially towards those people that actually produce the things we love.

what about those who produce things we hate?

 

[Snaku]

This has gone too far in my humble opinion. A lot of shit happened, sure, but banning Denis? That's bullshit. He probably wouldn't have posted here anymore, anyway, but the ban is an insult and just bad style. Would you have shut down NeoGAF if the game ended up being good? If not, you shouldn't have banned him. If he was banned for talking bad about GAF, he should have been banned immediately, not weeks later...

Many gaffers have been banned for less.

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

I absolutely agree the trolling of Too Human went unchecked and unmodded for to long. But Denis should have responded like Jaffe or the tons of other dev's who don't freak out and threaten to shut the place down.

I feel like Evilore has been more than gracious and mature during this entire fiasco. This thread was deserved 10x over and will probably end up being quite a catharsis for neogaf.

I can see where you're coming from, I guess I'm just missing a lot of this I guess.

Like I said, I'm kinda indifferent only because I don't like the game anyway. But that has nothing to do with Dyack. I had bad feelings about this game after it's 3rd development cycle.

 

[Kadey]

Dyack was wrong by way he approached and dealt with the real criticism, that's all there is to it. He behaved like a CEO should NOT behave.

I guess he is too human. :lol

 

[bathala]

watching and listening to all the interviews. it felt like Denis was fanboy of his game that he is very defensive about his game and doesn't take criticism as suggestion to better the game. You can see the 1upshow that he is gleeing over his game but the expression of the other people r kinda (really? this is it?) [except for shane he slept with dyack].

that's my 2cent

 

[gofreak]

I would welcome some more kindness on these forums, and especially towards those people that actually produce the things we love.

Just because I throw some paint on a canvas, I wouldn't expect to go onto a art forum, act the eejit, shit on the forum, and then expect some kind of minimum standard of kindness in return because "i'm an artist".

Game developers are not Gods. They're not here to be fawned over. If they want to come here to participate in discussion they're more than welcome, but they shouldn't expect special treatment.

 

[Mamesj]

I would welcome some more kindness on these forums, and especially towards those people that actually produce the things we love.

that's touching, but read the rest of the post. It's about the people who produce things we don't love.

 

[Snaku]

I guess he is too human. :lol

Boosh!

 

[wsippel]

Ive been banned before for "shitting on a thread". Dyack shat on the entire forum.

Read my edit. If "shitting on the forum" was really the sole/ main reason, he should have been banned immediately. Not now, weeks later, after his game got reviewed. If he wasn't banned back then, he shouldn't be banned at all.

 

[dialmydrive]

that's touching, but read the rest of the post. It's about the people who produce things we don't love.

:lol

Beyond the fact that the game is less than spectacular, why would he go on a rant like this? Is this typical of him?

 

[Tiktaalik]

I know that every single person here would agree with me that calling the game "shit" without playing it is something that this forum should not and typically hasn't condoned.

I'm not sure... now that we have demos it's a bit easier to claim a game as shit, even if the game experience is only based on an hour or so of gameplay. I thought the demo was one of the worst games I had played in a long time, and I knew they didn't have time to fix all of the problems I saw, so I felt pretty comfortable in slamming the game as shitty.

 

[Joates]

And we sink one step closer to Dyack with this move...

Oh and to ban him ffrom the forum for publicly slandering NeoGAF?? That'll really show him. :lol

 

[birdman]

I guess he is too human. :lol

http://www.instantrimshot.com/

 

[FightyF]

Dude, if you watch a trailer for a movie, and the trailer looks stupid and crappy, is it the fault of the viewer to assume that the actual movie will be crappy too?

Just in case: NO!

That's a movie, where the sole purpose is to WATCH it.

Typically with videogames, we PLAY it.

Big difference there.

Right, but I just want to get across that the process of pre-release discussion of games is like that. And it's not necessarily damning a game one way or another prior to release, in a general sense. I've seen games be a bit crapped all over when they're first shown (or, more specifically, their screenshots/video), but that pull themselves together over the course of their development and emerge to a good reception here. That can happen.

I totally agree, but if you've ever visited the TH threads from the beginning, you would see that it was an exception. Again, I've been posting here for 10 years, I know how its like. And I can tell you, that in my 10 years I've never seen anything like what I saw in the TH threads.

I could even watch video of people jumping off cliffs or get commentary from expert cliff jumpers who only barely survived and make a judgment based solely on that.

None of the trolling involved analyzing critical response to the game. Thus, it was nonsensical.

I find calling a game you haven't played "shit" roughly akin to calling a game you haven't played "great". If your issue is that no one can know the final quality of the game, why aren't you complaining about the boosters as well?

I agree. People calling X game "GOTY" without even touching the game...it's just filler crap that clouds this forum. It's been happening a lot lately, we saw a lot of it with that one Killzone 2 thread. There are so many other ways to exclaim your excitement, but calling a game "GOTY" is just as non-sensical as calling it "shit" because in both cases you're pulling your opinion out of your ass.

I'm not sure... now that we have demos it's a bit easier to claim a game as shit, even if the game experience is only based on an hour or so of gameplay. I thought the demo was one of the worst games I had played in a long time, and I knew they didn't have time to fix all of the problems I saw, so I felt pretty comfortable in slamming the game as shitty.

Now, what if you made those comments back in 2006 or 2007, when the game was still early?

 

[FrankT]

fx'd

Raise you a G4TV and a Videogaming247;

Remember when Too Human (Xbox 360) creator Denis Dyack bet the internet that Too Human would be a good game and that a majority of gamers would like the RPG game?

Seems like things have gotten out of hand over at NeoGAF since the original bet was made, and Mr. Dyack has managed to get himself banned from the gaming forum.

Will the game live up to Dyack's hype? Find out tonight on an all-new X-Play when Adam and Morgan review Too Human. Tune in to G4 at 8PM ET.

Want to see the message written by NeoGAF moderator EvilLore? It's full of anger! Internet anger!


He writes:

As Confucius once said, “the photoshop cat juggles a ball of yarn, and unravels it all over his face.” You are Baldur, Denis. You’re the poorly animated bald Norse technogod, the Übermensch with a thousand pointless book references misunderstood by the dirty proles who aren’t worthy enough to judge you.

Your favorite Nietzsche quote, “he who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster,” is one you’ve fallen victim to yourself, if your opinion of this site is to be taken to heart. In these pitiable confrontations with us you’ve proven to be the monster of gaming development, a sore on the industry and a squanderer of your subordinates’ time and effort. Through all this, through this self-inflicted PR nightmare, you’ve conquered vast new frontiers of unwarranted hyperbole and desperate pseudo-intellectual grasping. Buy an unaccredited doctorate, change your given name to Derek, and take up the reins; Derek Smart would eagerly defer to the greatness of Dr. Dyack.

What is an appropriate action to take in response to the man who continues to post here? I won’t be tolerating a second retconned “social experiment,” a second call for NeoGAF’s closing, or a second “worst forum” insult. You decided to ignore the option for real terms for your pointless tag bet, so with the majority of reviews condemning your magnum opus to mediocrity I’ll claim a suitable prize by telling you to get the hell off NeoGAF.

OUCH. Ice burn. It's always an odd day when a forum moderator unleashes this much hate on a legitimate game developer.

http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/688372/NeoGAF_Bans_Too_Human_Creator_Denis_Dyack.html

Making the rounds now.

 

[Snaku]

http://www.instantrimshot.com/

That's too awesome! :lol

 

[Chiggs]

Great job, EviLore; every time this forum has a chance of becoming a valid mouthpiece of critical analysis and a true forum of exchange between those who make the games and those who play them you manage again to piss it away with such petty ramblings.

I think you might have different expectations.

 

[sprocket]

Well IMO the whole thing comes down to taking this place and places like this too seriously.

how many people read and post here? and how many gamers are there in the world?

 

[SlasherJPC]

And we sink one step closer to Dyack with this move...

Oh and to ban him ffrom the forum for publicly slandering NeoGAF?? That'll really show him. :lol

I totally slander things left and right in real life. I've yet to deal with any repurcussions ...Cept that one time in Bangkok.

 

[wsippel]

Dude, what? GAF is a private organization, Denis openly and unfairly slandered the organization in public on repeated occasions. Why is this not a bannable offense? And why would GAF shut down if TH had been good? Give me a break.

The problem isn't that he was banned. I probably would have banned him, too. The timing is what makes this thing stupid. Why wait for the first reviews to trickle in? And what if the reviews would have been good, or even great? Would he still be banned? If the answer is yes, why wasn't he banned immediately?

 

[jetjevons]

I guess he is too human. :lol

:lol

 

[Joates]

Raise you a G4TV and a Videogaming247;



http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/688372/NeoGAF_Bans_Too_Human_Creator_Denis_Dyack.html

Making the rounds now.

:lol Not surprising in the least.

 

[Shaheed79]

I'm surprised some of you think Evilore should have just let that comment by Dyack slide, especially when it appears he has nothing to back it up with. If I'm going to drop 60 bucks on a new game, it sure as hell isn't going to be a mediocre one created by a man that slung shit at the very people who would be the first in line to support it if it turned out well.

This is what it all comes down to. We like to play games and the less crappy they are the better. If the reviews would of come back and stated that the game was great and deserved mention in the same sentence with games like Diablo and Titan Quest then we would have bought it. Some of us bought the game DESPITE the awful reviews because they were gamers who can afford $60 on a mediocre game.

If this game bombs and Dennis claims the reason why it didn't sell is neogaf I hope he understands that MS will not care for his buck passing as much as some media sites.

 

[a.wd]

oh well, and now the saga is ended. I think all the people saying that NeoGaf isn't going to have an effect on the sales of the game, is really fooling themselves.

I know people like to underplay the importance of this place, but on the internet it is the hardcore that start Memes that then get sent around the world, and it is the hardcore that generally dictate the general themes of discussion.

Don't believe me? Check google for stats on most popular subjects tomorrow and I bet you get a major spike for Denis Dyack.

Gaf may only be a small minority, but we are loud and as such what we end up shouting about gets heard all over the place. For gods sake What was that Ms guy who posted here? how many Virals are on here? How many community managers regularly post here also?

If the industry thinks gaf is so important then maybe it is?

 

[gofreak]

I totally agree, but if you've ever visited the TH threads from the beginning, you would see that it was an exception. Again, I've been posting here for 10 years, I know how its like. And I can tell you, that in my 10 years I've never seen anything like what I saw in the TH threads.

I'd have to revisit them to know about "from the beginning", but it seemed like criticism got sharper the more Dyack spoke out against that criticism. Rightly or wrongly he had to know that would happen.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Now, what if you made those comments back in 2006 or 2007, when the game was still early?

That's certainly a different ballpark, though back when the first screens were first shown I remember being critical of the game. I called the artstyle "crappy, generic western art" or something along those lines. Of course that's not in the same realm as straight up calling something shit.

 

[ypo]

ho ho freedom of speech, hey let's not ban anyone. Let's not interfere with freedom of speech.

What a crock of shit.

There's nothing wrong with calling early showings of Too Human shit, because frankly they were pure shit. The first video was horrendously crap.

 

[Joates]

oh well, and now the saga is ended. I think all the people saying that NeoGaf isn't going to have an effect on the sales of the game, is really fooling themselves.

I know people like to underplay the importance of this place, but on the internet it is the hardcore that start Memes that then get sent around the world, and it is the hardcore that generally dictate the general themes of discussion.

Don't believe me? Check google for stats on most popular subjects tomorrow and I bet you get a major spike for Denis Dyack.

Gaf may only be a small minority, but we are loud and as such what we end up shouting about gets heard all over the place. For gods sake What was that Ms guy who posted here? how many Virals are on here? How many community managers regularly post here also?

If the industry thinks gaf is so important then maybe it is?

The internet does not revolve around Dyack or GAF...

Reading shit like this makes me sad I post and even read here.

 

[Chiggs]

Are people actually insinuating that NeoGAF will decline because of this incident? What a load of crap. Look at the comments on that G4 article. Quite supportive. Because the game is a pile of crap, AND because Dyack can't shut his mouth, the public will side with EvilLore on this.

 

[sprocket]

oh well, and now the saga is ended. I think all the people saying that NeoGaf isn't going to have an effect on the sales of the game, is really fooling themselves.

I know people like to underplay the importance of this place, but on the internet it is the hardcore that start Memes that then get sent around the world, and it is the hardcore that generally dictate the general themes of discussion.

Don't believe me? Check google for stats on most popular subjects tomorrow and I bet you get a major spike for Denis Dyack.

Gaf may only be a small minority, but we are loud and as such what we end up shouting about gets heard all over the place. For gods sake What was that Ms guy who posted here? how many Virals are on here? How many community managers regularly post here also?

If the industry thinks gaf is so important then maybe it is?

but that is only internet popularity. Shitty games still sell a lot of the times. I bet too human still breaks a milllion easily.

 

[Weenerz]

How did I miss this glorious topic? Evilore is god.

 

[Mamesj]

I think we're forgetting this all started when Dyack himself asked us, before the demo was out iirc, whether we liked the game or not. :lol

So much for not judging a game before playing it. Plenty of people said "against" just on the principle.

 

[SlasherJPC]

but that is only internet popularity. Shitty games still sell a lot of the times.

50 cent game... nuff said.

 

[commariodore64]

The internet does not revolve around Dyack or GAF...

Reading shit like this makes me sad I post and even read here.

THIS X 100000000000000000000000!!!!!!!!!

As I said earlier... This is not a valid mouthpiece of analytical criticism - and it never will be, thankfully. It is what it is. A forum of people discussing something they love very much with great fervor. These discussions and critical analysis are for themselves - NOT for the masses or whomever you wish to validate GAF criticism. That is the beauty of GAF...

 

[dude]

Great job, EviLore; every time this forum has a chance of becoming a valid mouthpiece of critical analysis and a true forum of exchange between those who make the games and those who play them you manage again to piss it away with such petty ramblings.

Dennis broke the cardinal rule; you don't respond to criticism. But this came not from a PR representative of the company, or one of the bean counters, this came from the prime architect of the game itself. As unprofessional as that may seem, it's perfectly understandable for one to protect something they've been nurturing for so many years.

This sets a bad precedent; if f developer or other member of the trade has to be careful not to upset the establishment then ultimately freedom of speech will be restricted and gaming as a whole will suffer. David Jaffe himself has posted in this thread stating that he limits himself to simple, friendly exchanges between forum members. Maybe he wants to address criticisms levelled against him or the gaming community and maybe he doesn't. It's a moot point now because he and many others are going to have to watch their proverbial tongues not to say so as not to suffer the same fate as Dennis.

Is that really a healthy forum?

This is also a slight to those who are supporters of Silicon Knights and their games and whom respect what Dennis and his team have created. Dennis has always taken the time to answer questions on his games. But now that he's 'broken the rules' we the fans have to suffer. Yes, yes, we could easily take our questions to another forum, but is that ultimately how we want things to work? People swallowing their support and moving elsewhere to escape derision and persecution?

I really hope it doesn't come to that, although we seem to be there.

EviLore, in your salvo at the start of this thread you use Dennis' favourite Nietzsch quote "he who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster" against him.

It seems you should take heed yourself.

I disagree. . This is a community, not some PR tool for developers to come and expect the same slurping they get from magazines and the like, we owe them nothing.
I don't see what Jaffe said as "restraining" himself, but just as not being an ass, Jaffe is a member of this community, (just like all of us).
Dyack was an ass, and he got banned for it. That's it.
We shouldn't treat Dyack or any other developer any differently, than GAF really has lost.

 

[railGUN]

I think we're forgetting this all started when Dyack himself asked us, before the demo was out iirc, whether we liked the game or not. :lol

So much for not judging a game before playing it. Plenty of people said "against" just on the principle.

And then revealed the "experiment"... on a different websites 1-way PODCAST, with said hosts not even knowing he was going to do so... I thought that was so fucking lame. I say good job Evilore!

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Raise you a G4TV and a Videogaming247;



http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/688372/NeoGAF_Bans_Too_Human_Creator_Denis_Dyack.html

Making the rounds now.

OMG he's a Developper, EvilOr What Hav u DONE!!??!

 

[DuckRacer]

He wanted to close GAF.

To be fair, he never actually said that. He stated that if he wanted to, he technically could shut down GAF because of various insults people here have flung at him. Then he clarified that he wouldn't actually close down GAF because he wouldn't want to.