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[Audioboxer]

Lethal injection is the standard way. However, an inmate can request other methods. Electrocution, gas, hanging, and firing squads are still allowed in some states, if the inmate wants it or if lethal injection isn't available.

As for track record, one just happened last month.

If it really is that rough and states are still doing it then that is just fucked up. Whether it's using dated drugs or cheaping out or whatever. None of that should happen (coughing/struggling/not dying in a reasonable timeframe).

 

[RevenWolf]

A piece of advice while discussing this issue: Make sure you're actually discussing with a particular person, rather than generalizing a group and then having a strawman argument against the imaginary group.

This is a good reminder, both sides (including myself) have fallen into this trap, and does not help discussion.

 

[Audioboxer]

Then what about a life sentence without the possibiilty for parole? What's the point of re-evaluating, if a successful rehabilitation still doesn't get you back into society? And one might argue that after 30+ years, successfully re-integrating into society is virtually impossible anyway.

Some part of re-evaluation is just internal. Whether it's a simple internal monologue or just "talking and listening to yourself". Sure many end up turning to religion, but whatever it is, by rehabilitation I don't just mean letting you out. Your life will be forever behind bars, but a part of life is always between you and yourself.

Again you're veering close to the argument of why do any life sentences, just offer executions as an escape from life (or worse, enforce executions for severe criminals). To me that is also quite close to those who plan something horrendous and purposely get the police to kill them after their spree. They ain't coming in alive to avoid facing the consequences. Hence why myself and maybe some others are saying this is the "easy way out" for Roof.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I'm not wasting my energy, I'm not in the streets protesting for Dylan to go free or dumb shit like that. I would simply prefer that nobody gets the death penalty when there haven't been any reason to that outweighs the inherent possibility of innocent deaths that capital punishment allows for. Again, the justice system doesn't make exceptions. The "oh it's just so obvious, so clear-cut, obviously we can make an exception" position is a dangerous one.



I'm against torture. I also feel that torturing prisoners is unjustifiable, and that their very existence in prison should not be torture as best as we can, as per the 8th amendment. I don't get my rocks off thinking about how horrible it would be for Roof to be shackled to existence for another 50 or so years, I am only advocating to take action that best accommodates the fallibility of our process.

Not when it's just people on a message board who have no control over any meaningful decisions. Stop being so dramatic. You're mistaking personal feelings people are expressing about an individual event with opinions they think should be applied en masse.

 

[Nepenthe]

To argue that a clear-cut case is worth executing Roof over is to accept that a clear-cut case could be used against an innocent. The justice system does not make exceptions.

My apathy to Roof's eventual demise due to the person he is is not an inherent acceptance of the system as a whole. Again, I'd rather the death penalty be abolished regardless. But it's here right now, and if I had to go to bat for anyone on it the last person would be for a self-admitted white supremacist and mass murderer. It's like guns; I'd rather every last one of them melted down because I feel we'd be better off overall. But I'm not going to shed tears over ISIL fighters getting shot in a gun battle in the meantime. You can fight for and advocate for structural change without shedding tears for every statistic of those systems.

 

[ChoklitReign]

Also, for those against the death penalty, are you also against torture? I've seen more than one person in this thread saying he shoudl suffer in solitary confinement for the rest of his life because that would be torture. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out those same people in a torture thread talking about how they disavow torture and don't support any form of it.

Exactly, and that makes me realize that all three topics I brought up involve when making a person suffer or end suffering is justified. If you are pro-DP, pro-RTD, and anti-torture, you have a fully satisfactory worldview where the intent is to minimize suffering for everybody, patients or criminals. The most progressive people oppose DP but support the rest. Between the DP and RTD, do they think criminals cannot consent to the DP, thus it is different when a patient consents to dying? I don't want to break their bubble, but lots of criminals in the U.S. want the death penalty - I don't know how many but it happens. So their is room even in their worldview that the DP is sometimes justifiable if it's about consent. Besides, don't criminals lose all consent when they are imprisoned? The whole point is they are in a situation they didn't desire.

I wish I knew more what life in prison in Europe is like and how more humane it is than in the U.S., because if it is possible to treat the worst with a decent life, however limited their rights are, I could accept there is a way to imprison somebody free of suffering. I know Norway is like this, but then you have the matter of people like Breivik being complete douchebags and testing their tolerance.

 

[EstoyBlackWaldo]

How many murderers have you psychologically evaluated?

You first Clint. Cause according to you everyone now should be certified in having this discussion. I won't wait though.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Not when it's just people on a message board who have no control over any meaningful decisions. Stop being so dramatic. You're mistaking personal feelings people are expressing with opinions they think should be applied en masse.

I get what you're saying. It just bothers me when people ignore the downsides of a very transparently fucked up system for momentary catharsis. To be for the death penalty in this instance is still to be for the death penalty, and I find it troubling.

 

[ugaboga232]

From a medical perspective, lethal injection is probably pretty painful. Nitrogen suffocation with some opiates would probably be the kindest way.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I get what you're saying. It just bothers me when people ignore the downsides of a very transparently fucked up system for momentary catharsis. To be for the death penalty in this instance is still to be for the death penalty, and I find it troubling.

I would be for the death penalty 100% if we had a way to ensure that verdicts that contain that sentence were 100% correct 100% of the time. So I'm not going to complain when the broken clock is right once and a while.

I guess you can find that troubling, but again, it feels like a complete waste of your time if you wouldn't have a problem with this guy dying otherwise.

 

[Coffee Dog]

My apathy to Roof's eventual demise due to the person he is is not an inherent acceptance of the system as a whole. Again, I'd rather the death penalty be abolished regardless. But it's here right now, and if I had to go to bat for anyone on it the last person would be for a self-admitted white supremacist and mass murderer. It's like guns; I'd rather every last one of them melted down because I feel we'd be better off overall. But I'm not going to shed tears over ISIL fighters getting shot in a gun battle in the meantime. You can fight for and advocate for structural change without shedding tears for every statistic of those systems.

Why are you interpreting my stance against the death penalty as "going to bat" or "shedding tears" for Roof? Fuck Roof. I'm not saying he should go free, and I'm sure as shit not advocating his innocence. I'm saying he should be punished in a way that isn't harmful to others.

 

[Nepenthe]

Why are you interpreting my stance against the death penalty as "going to bat" or "shedding tears" for Roof? Fuck Roof. I'm not saying he should go free, and I'm sure as shit not advocating his innocence. I'm saying he should be punished in a way that isn't harmful to others.

I guess the same reason you interpreted my apathy to Roof's fate as me being okay with the death penalty being used against innocent people.

Had he gotten life in prison, I wouldn't have honestly cared either. Either way, he wasn't going to see the light of day as a free man ever again. However, it is very easy to ignore what is going to happen to him while still arguing against the death penalty being instated, just as I can, again, be anti-gun while not being in any way bothered when ISIL members get shot. Again, being against a system as a whole isn't mutually exclusive with being personally bothered by specific instances of that system.

 

[Krappadizzle]

The guy was a racist piece of shit with absolutely no remorse. I find it very hard to have ANY empathy for him and am okay with the sentence.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I'm against the death penalty but I'm not shedding any tears or raising a fuss over this sentencing.

 

[LordKasual]

meh

fuck em

 

[Forearm Star]

Good.

.

So he gets the easy way out? Man, he would suffer more in jail for life. I don't agree with this.

He'd quickly find the right people to protect him.

 

[LionPride]

If he just got put in prison, he'd have white supremacists protecting his scrawny tale.

Him being sentenced to die, yeah it's pretty fine with me

 

[NervousXtian]

Morally? What do morals have to do with the criminal justice system?

The case has to be made that killing him is useful. As of right now, it's an expensive pain in the ass and the legal processes that allow for it also harm innocents (harming innocents, of course, being immoral, showing just how useless invoking morality is here).

How is locking him up for life useful? He's more useful to society dead.

It is certainly more useful than not killing him. By killing him, the total amount of hatred in the world decreases. Furthermore, all the money that would have been spent taking care of him in jail - feeding him, medical care, etc, will be spared. In prison he likely would have been involved in the Brotherhood. They have influence even outside of prison walls. By killing him he will not be able to further their cause from within prison.

There is <= 0 societal value to keeping him alive in prison. And there is >= 0 societal value in killing him. So kill him.

Sort of this, but in my eyes CP is less a cruel and unusual punishment than never leaving a prison for the rest of someones life.

So you're saying innocent people being killed because of capital punishment is less important than punishing someone else?

I don't believe this man will reform, and I do think he's guilty, but my objections to capital punishment aren't because of this man, it's because innocent can and have been killed because of it.

It seems clear that many people here want to focus on punishing the guilty, but take little regard for innocents that can and will inevitably be caught in the crossfire as long as capital punishment exists.

I'm talking about this guy, he clearly did it.

Morality is the least important aspect discussed when talking about Capital Punishment though, like this thread demonstrates.

Is he not "paying the price" by spending his entire life in jail? Only his blood can do that then?

I think life imprisonment is a worse fate than death, so by that account I consider CP worthwhile in cases like this.

 

[The Faceless Master]

was hoping for life in genpop

 

[LionPride]

was hoping for life in genpop

He'd be protected

 

[psaman17]

I think in 20-30 years we can start mucking with the brain in a way few people imagine if not sooner. Why do I think this? Because your tax dollars are working on it and for my training to do so as well.

There are a lot of treatments in the works for empathy problems (mostly for autism but could be useful for sociopathy/etc.). If you want links I can send you some.

The only thing scarier to me than a psychopathic murderer is the government poking at our brain trying to change the way we think.

 

[RevenWolf]

How is locking him up for life useful? He's more useful to society dead.



Sort of this, but in my eyes CP is less a cruel and unusual punishment than never leaving a prison for the rest of someones life.



I'm talking about this guy, he clearly did it.



I think life imprisonment is a worse fate than death, so by that account I consider CP worthwhile in cases like this.

I understand he clearly did it, the problem is that the innocent people that incorrectly get executed are also executed because "they clearly did it" until evidence proves otherwise when it's too late.

I do think this man is guilty and that he's horrible, but capital punishment exists it will always catch someone innocent eventually.

Using this case as an exception of "he's totally guilty" doesn't change the fact that mistakes in the future can be made, that's why oppose it.

 

[entremet]

He'd be protected

Very much so. Also embraced by the Aryan Brotherhood.

 

[jerry1594]

He should be put in ADX Florence

 

[ugaboga232]

The only thing scarier to me than a psychopathic murderer is the government poking at our brain trying to change the way we think.

Too late google optogenetics. We already have mice addicted to light (that one was pretty easy) that will self administer till the cows come home.

Sorry, pandora's box of neuroscience is open. Hopefully we won't abuse it. I can send some more links if you want. The good news is we will be able to really treat mental illnesses.

 

[jerry1594]

The only thing scarier to me than a psychopathic murderer is the government poking at our brain trying to change the way we think.

I think you didn't think this through that much

 

[psaman17]

Too late google optogenetics. We already have mice addicted to light (that one was pretty easy) that will self administer till the cows come home.

Sorry, pandora's box of neuroscience is open. Hopefully we won't abuse it. I can send some more links if you want. The good news is we will be able to really treat mental illnesses.

I would love to see it.

The future is scary indeed.

 

[ugaboga232]

I would love to see it.

The future is scary indeed.

Here is an overview of the technique (there are other ones that are similar as well that are controlled by an inert drug that only works with genetically implanted channels): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/optogenetics-controlling/

Here is a video of some mouse control stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7uRFVR9BPU (when the light turns on the mice will continue to run in circles, couldn't find a video of the light addiction model but basically you put the same virus in the reward center of the brain and it works like cocaine or other drugs of abuse).

The results of this research are numerous but we already have essentially digital (shitty prototype) drugs like www.thync.com which you should also check out for a peak into our cyberpunk future.

 

[Omega Kirby]

Good Riddance

 

[Zantetsuken]

Roof will be a middle aged man before his time comes up.

 

[Opto]

A life sentence is way worse though. Same stone cement walls everyday, prison food, no freedom, any moment of joy will be punctuated by the fact that he could have been happier if he didn't kill those people. until he dies of whatever his body can't fight off.

 

[Madness]

But only one of the two is prone to killing innocent people...

This argument holds little water in the era of DNA evidence, cctv footage, and the burden of proof being so high. Few to no innocent people given the death penalty since the late 90's have been proven innocent. More offenders are let off for murders and assaults than incarcerated due to the requirements for evidence being so high. Going forward you are going to see death penalty convictions be near fool proof. It is why people like OJ and Zimmerman and Casey Anthony are let off the hook.

 

[Mesousa]

A life sentence is way worse though. Same stone cement walls everyday, prison food, no freedom, any moment of joy will be punctuated by the fact that he could have been happier if he didn't kill those people. until he dies of whatever his body can't fight off.

Torture shouldn't be the purpose of our justice system.

 

[RevenWolf]

This argument holds little water in the era of DNA evidence, cctv footage, and the burden of proof being so high. Few to no innocent people given the death penalty since the late 90's have been proven innocent. More offenders are let off for murders and assaults than incarcerated due to the requirements for evidence being so high. Going forward you are going to see death penalty convictions be near fool proof. It is why people like OJ and Zimmerman and Casey Anthony are let off the hook.

But that's the thing, near isn't good enough. even if it was 0.000001% error chance, if an innocent is eventually killed then that's too high.

Yes the odds are reduced with modern technology but I don't believe for a second that it's completely infallible.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I really find it distasteful that people are heaping insults and wishes for harm and suffering upon this murderer, it is absolutely a spirit of retribution.

To what degree do you believe he chose in sound mind to do what he did? Do you think you could have done differently in his place, with his genes and environment?

There is a utilitarian purpose to removing uncivil harmful people from society if their harm cannot be prevented or mitigated, but on what grounds do you wish him harm?

 

[Opto]

Torture shouldn't be the purpose of our justice system.

life in prison is going to be somewhat arduous. it's not a fun place! If someone kills nine people with no remorse, I don't feel bad about them not having freedom anymore, ever.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I don't feel bad about them not having freedom anymore, ever.

But have you asked yourself why?

 

[The Fatal Englishman]

That would be a wishful thinking for the glimmer of a few minutes of sheer pain. Unless you are just arguing technicalities in which case sure I'll accept a chance but it's a very low one.

Guy is essentially getting "assisted suicide" to escape a "terminal illness", life behind bars. I'd rather see an argument for assisted suicide for people fighting genuine terminal illnesses and being so broken and in pain. Not a murderer getting to escape a life long and mind breaking sentence.

Far from it. There have been numerous cases of individuals taking up to an hour or more to die from lethal injections in the last few years while suffering from severe pain. In part, this is due to a drug shortage (particularly of sodium piothental) which has forced states to begin experimenting with alternative anaesthetics.

 

[Valkerionseven]

Part of me thinks killing him is getting off easy but the thought of people paying for him to stay alive for 40~60+ years in some hole bothers me too. Hmm...

 

[Xe4]

life in prison is going to be somewhat arduous. it's not a fun place! If someone kills nine people with no remorse, I don't feel bad about them not having freedom anymore, ever.

It's not "somewhat arduous". It's torture. You slowly go insane whilst you wish for death more and more every day. People in solitary do crazy shit, like cut themselves in a million places, or swallow razor blades or scream endlessly because they've lost their minds.

Nobody, not even the biggest of misters should be subject to solitary confinement as a punishment.

 

[FadedRevolution]

I really find it distasteful that people are heaping insults and wishes for harm and suffering upon this murderer, it is absolutely a spirit of retribution.

To what degree do you believe he chose in sound mind to do what he did? Do you think you could have done differently in his place, with his genes and environment?

There is a utilitarian purpose to removing uncivil harmful people from society if their harm cannot be prevented or mitigated, but on what grounds do you wish him harm?

Yea we need to feel sorry for this guy. Think about how he feels. Fuck the fact he killed 9 people. Man fuck you dude.

 

[foxuzamaki]

I personally am againsg ghe death penalty, but the literal first thing in my head and out my mouth was "justice"

 

[cpp_is_king]

I really find it distasteful that people are heaping insults and wishes for harm and suffering upon this murderer, it is absolutely a spirit of retribution.

To what degree do you believe he chose in sound mind to do what he did? Do you think you could have done differently in his place, with his genes and environment?

There is a utilitarian purpose to removing uncivil harmful people from society if their harm cannot be prevented or mitigated, but on what grounds do you wish him harm?

I don't wish him harm. A swift, painful death would be just fine. Can we use a guillotine? Doesn't get much more painless than that. He wouldn't suffer even for a second

 

[SURGEdude]

I've made my opinion know on the death penalty. I think it's overused to the point of abuse. But I don't oppose it in principle. An individual like Dylann of whom guilt is not in question by any rational metric deserves not to suffer. Beyond that I think the people of his community have the right to decide his fate.

I think there's a strong argument that life imprisonment is more vengeful and depraved than anything else that might happen to him as a result of the legal process.

I know many Gaffers will disagree.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Yea we need to feel sorry for this guy. Think about how he feels. Fuck the fact he killed 9 people. Man fuck you dude.

Nah, fuck your bloodlust.

 

[Enzom21]

I really find it distasteful that people are heaping insults and wishes for harm and suffering upon this murderer, it is absolutely a spirit of retribution.

To what degree do you believe he chose in sound mind to do what he did? Do you think you could have done differently in his place, with his genes and environment?

There is a utilitarian purpose to removing uncivil harmful people from society if their harm cannot be prevented or mitigated, but on what grounds do you wish him harm?

He murdered nine black people because they were black. Are you seriously suggesting people should show empathy towards this piece of filth?
You really are quite the ally, aren't you?

 

[ugaboga232]

He murdered nine black people because they were black. Are you seriously suggesting people should show empathy towards this piece of filth?

Empathy is not sympathy. What makes a person do something like that? Probably something awful. The poster's point is also an allusion to how genes, environment, and biology are ultimately the causes of our actions and thoughts.

 

[FadedRevolution]

Nah, fuck your bloodlust.

I ain't got no blood lust. But I will be damned if I feel sorry for a racist piece of shit who murdered 9 people because they were black. I forgot he is white so I need to feel sorry for him. Those black folks he murdered weren't angels.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Those black folks he murdered weren't angels.

It wouldn't change my position if they were all also serial killers. You're essentially sarcastically implying that I'm a racist because you're uninterested in what I'm talking about. It's a pretty shitty thing to do.

 

[Masked Man]

While I don't condone the death penalty, it's hard not to say "good riddance." Hopefully this helps bring some closure to the victims' families.